ssgbryan posted at 9:44AM Tue, 21 November 2017 - #4318399

There are ways to make the clothing fit better - the problem is that it takes more than just a couple of clicks, which means that most folks will simply whine that the software should do all of the work, so they don't actually have to do anything.

So Poser doesn't do basic Collision Detection and smoothing for clothing, then? Dang.

Dear SM, toss that onto the list of stuff to do. Seriously. I haven't loaded or used a Vicky 4 figure for like 3 years now, but I still use all the clothing and suchlike with very little adjustment (it's rare, and I know which items demand it by now - usually a poorly-built freebie that looks nice so I still use it, etc.)

I dig the DIY way you do that, and it future-proofs the stuff in a way, but seriously? 2-3 clicks, and I can park ancient Vicky 4 clothing on Genesis 3 and keep all the movement/deformation morphs, no sweat (though admittedly fitting V4 stuff on G8 won't happen automatically on my rig, all the other Genesis stuff works just fine, and I've got an easy enough workaround for V4 clothing which adds like a minute to the process w/o ever leaving the program to do it.)

Penguinisto posted at 11:50AM Tue, 21 November 2017 - #4318435

I dig the DIY way you do that, and it future-proofs the stuff in a way, but seriously? 2-3 clicks, and I can park ancient Vicky 4 clothing on Genesis 3 and keep all the movement/deformation morphs, no sweat (though admittedly fitting V4 stuff on G8 won't happen automatically on my rig, all the other Genesis stuff works just fine, and I've got an easy enough workaround for V4 clothing which adds like a minute to the process w/o ever leaving the program to do it.)

Seriously. It doesn't future proof it "in a way". It future proofs it, period. The clothing can go on ANY figure.

That isn't the only thing I do. With every outfit, I fix stuff that QA should have caught (convert material .pz2s to mc6s, delete ego folders, rationalize naming conventions, - with the g series, the added joy of putting ALL of the PCF in the correct folders - 1,000+ packages installed and not 1 has correct placement of PCFs, not 1).

This saves me hours of frustration when developing stories.

This is a Poser thread in the Poser forum - we're not here to talk about the g figures, if you want to limit yourself to the DS/g figures, have at it.

"This is a Poser thread in the Poser forum - we're not here to talk about the g figures, if you want to limit yourself to the DS/g figures, have at it."

Typical response here. The cloth fitting tech in Daz is simply more user friendly and quicker to apply. Stop being so defensive. It actually helps when admitting Posers problems, and finding a solution, not defending old techniques that are over complicated. You won't gain any new users that way. Unless the Poser method is better, faster or equal to the alternative, then it will fail to get new users onboard. Isn't that the point of the thread? Where can Poser go? It won't go anywhere unless it improves and simplifies it's application methods, and makes it simple to new users, NOT just to those who have sworn to the grave not to use anything else and are stuck in old ways of doing things.

The funny part is the easiest way to do it isn't Poser or DAZ it's Maya ,Ok OK I know it coast a lot of $$$ ,But Blender doesn't.

In the real world we don't buy one shirt to fit everyone.

Poser DAZ both made them self's very limited with the one mesh for all philosophy.

If you only know how the plugs work Poser ,DAZ Then you haven't even seen the CGI Universe. It's MAGNIFICENT !!!!!!

ssgbryan posted at 7:11PM Tue, 21 November 2017 - #4318399

Moogal, you are asking a lot out of a low-end piece of software. You seem to be asking for Zbrush levels of modeling adjustment - just get a copy of Zbrush, or blender, or even Hexagon, if you are a masochist (Can you tell I have used Hexagon for too many years?). Geo-grafting is simply parenting another object/prop to a character. We've been able to do that since at least Poser 5, that I am personally aware of. It does have a fancier name though. These are simple steps that anyone can do, it's just that most folks on this board would rather whine than actually learn to use the software.

Oh please. That apology stopped being valid when they first slapped "Pro" on the end. Poser's developers have asked for a few hundred dollars roughly every 18 months for the last 15 years and I'm supposed to settle for 20 year old rigging and 15 year old cloth and hair simulations simply because Daz hasn't managed to significantly leapfrog those particular aspects of Poser yet? I'm not complaining about what was given, I'm complaining about their failure to significantly improve on it over the many versions released since those features were first introduced. Look at Virtual World Dynamics' cloth. When SM could have been working on something similar, or even on integrating that into Poser, they were instead incorporating blender's open-source Cycles renderer into a program that already had several high-end options available.

It only sounds like I am asking for modeling tools as that is how we often have to fix thing based on how Poser has always worked. What I want is to have a library of unique characters that work as expected when I decide to use them, and don't bust out the seams of their clothes when I bend an elbow or lose their hair when I turn their heads. While the cause of poke through is obvious, a large percentage of it could simply be fixed at render time with forced z-sorting. Of course I could hide a body part (and then it becomes difficult to select) or make a transparency map (plus spec/diffuse/etc.), but why should I have to do this when the underlying problem is so well understood? Why not a hybrid sim that lets you conform your clothing and then makes it part of the original figure, and maintains relative distances throughout posing? The game dev tools did something similar with figure combining, but created a new figure in the process. I'm thinking that Poser could discard the hidden geometry and merge the figures but with the ability to restore the hidden or deleted mesh on the fly as clothing is removed or replaced. Again, just thinking outside of the box as we are often given general purpose solutions to very specific problems. If the problems are specific, why not have specific solutions?

If geografting is all you say it is, attaching a prop to a hidden body part, then that is not at all what I was asking for. I was asking for a way to replace a body part with an arbitrary mesh and have it seamlessly blend in to the figure, irrespective of UVs, materials or grouping. Something like the old Creature Creator which let you mix/match and scale body parts (but unfortunately did not provide tools for rigging). I think some programs call this meta-meshing.

I'd venture that a single shirt could fit, or at least be worn by, ~85% of the adult population. It would be big on some and small on others, but they could still wear it. Yet I can have two Poser figures of identical size and proportion and yet the clothing for one simply can not be worn by the other. I'm aware of the tools you suggested, but at the end of the day I would still have figure specific clothing and would need repeat the whole process again should a new figure come along.

I've got zBrush and 3D-Coat. I've got Poser (2014) and iClone and blender with Manuel Bastioni Laboratory. In 20 minutes I could have Daz Studio, too. I know what my options are as to what else is available and at what price points. My suggestions are specifically directed at improving Poser so that I would consider continuing to support it, as the current version is the first one I didn't purchase since version 5 was released.

MartinX posted at 5:42PM Tue, 21 November 2017 - #4318472

"This is a Poser thread in the Poser forum - we're not here to talk about the g figures, if you want to limit yourself to the DS/g figures, have at it."

Typical response here. The cloth fitting tech in Daz is simply more user friendly and quicker to apply. Stop being so defensive. It actually helps when admitting Posers problems, and finding a solution, not defending old techniques that are over complicated. You won't gain any new users that way. Unless the Poser method is better, faster or equal to the alternative, then it will fail to get new users onboard. Isn't that the point of the thread? Where can Poser go? It won't go anywhere unless it improves and simplifies it's application methods, and makes it simple to new users, NOT just to those who have sworn to the grave not to use anything else and are stuck in old ways of doing things.

Its a typical response here because we don't want to bring down the wrath of the moderators.

The moderators get whiny when we do feature vs. feature comparisons. They call it software bashing. They also don't like it when we discuss the results of TCO analysis for DS content/software. They also call that software bashing.

In my experience, DS is fine, if you don't have a lot of content, can remember who made every item that you own, and you are willing to limit yourself to what is available to DS. And are willing to live on a WinTel box with a Nvidia graphics card.

That isn't an option for me:

No, I don't have everything installed. Yes, I can quit at any time. This amount of content means that one has to spend time on the front end, optimizing content for the most efficient workflow. I don't do single character stills. I do graphic novels. That means that I do group scenes. I need many different age groups, ethnicities, and clothing options.

Consider the following example: I have an ensemble cast of over 70 main characters, ranging in age from 5 to 80+. All races and a number of non-human races. Not only do I need full wardrobes for each (Minimum 1 week), I also need to be able to get at least half of these folks into the same outfit (uniform).

Another example: Ship 1 - the Von der Tann. The bridge (Star Trek TOS) has 13 stations. 3 shifts. 39 people (that can't look like they are all related to each other). Crew is 90% human (but not 90% Caucasian) Then there are other departments. That is before the "walk ons and red shirts". Everybody needs to be in the same uniform. And that is only 1 ship (I have several).

Kinda hard to do when over 95% (that percentage was midway through the g2 life-cycle, it's higher now) of the g figures are early 20 something Caucasians ranging from 5'10 (Vicky) to 6' 7" (Scott), and at best, only 10% of the clothing content could be worn in a professional environment.

This is why I use every figure I have collected since 2004. I can upgrade each of those base meshes (and I have) to the latest and greatest tech. Even my oldest figures are weight-mapped, and subdivided (where necessary). The g3 figures have a neat feature (facial bones). Poser has an equivalent feature (Control Surfaces). I can (and have) added them to many other figures. How do you add facial bones (or it's equivalent) to older figures in DS?

Nothing wrong with DS, but it is simply too limited for what I do.

Moogal,

Have you ever been involved with software development? I have.

There are a series of trade-offs involved. Will the new feature sell enough copies of Poser to justify the cost of developing (AND supporting) the new feature.

People haven't been demanding a better dynamic cloth room - they have been demanding that SM (and e-Frontier, and Curious Labs) fix the d@#$%d UI to where it is comprehensible. It helps that we are finally to the point where the hardware isn't brought to its knees when doing a sim. (That has actually driven my computer purchases over the past decade). People were whining about the render engine. Superfly is easier to use than either Reality or LuxRender. Poser users want a 1-click solution, not a 3 click solution. And they are cheap.

I am sorry you haven't found any use for all of the new features that have been added over the years - myself, I couldn't go back to Poser 2014, much less earlier versions.

bust out the seams of their clothes when I bend an elbow. There are multiple solutions for this. Use dynamic clothing (the easiest); Merge clothing and figure into 1 figure; remember to magnetize clothing; add missing body morph; use the fitting room; use morph brush.

lose their hair when I turn their heads. The fact that you forgot to parent the hair figure to the character isn't a software problem.

Why not a hybrid sim that lets you conform your clothing and then makes it part of the original figure, and maintains relative distances throughout posing. Have you looked at the properties tab on the clothing? Match Endpoints; Follow Origins; Include translations should address those. Or use the Combine Figure command.

I was asking for a way to replace a body part with an arbitrary mesh and have it seamlessly blend in to the figure, irrespective of UVs, materials or grouping. You have Zbrush - sculpt what you want there and import it into Poser as a Morph Target.

I don't think Creature Creator did what you seem to think it did (As an added bonus, you couldn't undo a number of the morphs once they were used). We've been able to adjust scaling (and moving the joint centers) for a few versions now. I'd recommend spending some quality time with the joint editor (accessed from the Windows menu). Not only is it covered in the manual, SM covered how to do it in webinars back in the 2012 era.

Using your t-shirt example, we have that already - it's called dynamic clothing.

I would suggest that you submit to your requests to SM (There is a Submit Your Poser Suggestions to Smith Micro). As a minimum, you might want to spend some quality time over on the SM forums - that is where the action is. C'mon Project E.

Okay - first up, I'm not bashing anything. I used the Genesis figures and clothing as an illustration, not as the point.

The point is that Poser needs something like this. Sure, you can get the same results - with external apps, more time spent by the user, and a more convoluted workflow, but... why? Why should that be necessary?

Please don't dodge it by saying that software development is hard... I smack around code for a living as well (and simple/fast collision detection functions have been around since the days of DOOM, for cryin' out loud! And before you say it, we've got enough horsepower these days to get past the bounding box.)

Yes, SM has to balance features against ROI - so does everyone else, but most of them seem to do it well enough... So tell me: where would you not see an increased level of customer interest in having an in-app simple (to the customer) means of utilizing nearly every bit of clothing made in the past frickin' 12+ years (or more) for your default figures? Maybe expose the API so that folks at, say, HiveWire could add definitions to it to allow clothing fits to the Dawn and Dusk figures? Opens up a massive pile of good stuff for the customer, and since SM makes its money from the application (and not really from content)? Not like I'm asking them to supply a free MacBook Pro with every purchase here, and they'd see ROI fairly quickly from it, from newbie and old hand alike.

Sure, I could ask SM directly, but they likely already know about this, and I think they can hire who they need to. So what's holding them back? I've given my theories earlier; I hope they change their minds.

Penguinisto posted at 10:52PM Tue, 21 November 2017 - #4318488

Okay - first up, I'm not bashing anything. I used the Genesis figures and clothing as an illustration, not as the point.

The point is that Poser needs something like this. Sure, you can get the same results - with external apps, more time spent by the user, and a more convoluted workflow, but... why? Why should that be necessary?

Please don't dodge it by saying that software development is hard... I smack around code for a living as well (and simple/fast collision detection functions have been around since the days of DOOM, for cryin' out loud! And before you say it, we've got enough horsepower these days to get past the bounding box.)

Yes, SM has to balance features against ROI - so does everyone else, but most of them seem to do it well enough... So tell me: where would you not see an increased level of customer interest in having an in-app simple (to the customer) means of utilizing nearly every bit of clothing made in the past frickin' 12+ years (or more) for your default figures? Maybe expose the API so that folks at, say, HiveWire could add definitions to it to allow clothing fits to the Dawn and Dusk figures? Opens up a massive pile of good stuff for the customer, and since SM makes its money from the application (and not really from content)? Not like I'm asking them to supply a free MacBook Pro with every purchase here, and they'd see ROI fairly quickly from it, from newbie and old hand alike.

Sure, I could ask SM directly, but they likely already know about this, and I think they can hire who they need to. So what's holding them back? I've given my theories earlier; I hope they change their minds.

Using a g figure/DS comparison is a good way to get a flame war going.

We have in-app, simple to the customer, means of utilizing every bit of clothing made in the last 12+ years. It's called the fitting room. Before that, we had Wardrobe Wizard and/or Xdresser. The tools are there - it is up to the end user to use them. It's like the cloth room - once you muster up the courage use it, you kick yourself for not using it sooner.

Maybe expose the API so that folks at, say, HiveWire could add definitions to it to allow clothing fits to the Dawn and Dusk figures?

Have you ever used the fitting room? Poser doesn't use definitions for clothing fits - that is a DS thing. The fitting room works with all figures. It is easiest to use it with a developer rig, but isn't necessary.

If you are in a hurry, (or need to convert 50+Gb of V4 content) Lyrra made the Fit Room Magnets for Dawn, Dusk, Paul, and Pauline (I am hoping for more when Orion, Venus, and Project E are launched.), they automagically position the clothing so that a fitting room session is 30 second process instead of a 60 second process (On my computer, anyway). It isn't rocket science. It does however take 3 or 4 clicks. Which apparently is much too difficult for some users.

As I have stated before - I have lots of V4 outfits that have never been worn by V4 in my stories. My bloated V4 clothing runtimes are available for any figure I care to use. Hair is decoupled from figures thanks to Netherworks' Hair Control System. I harvest V4/M4 textures via Texture Transformer and Texture Converter (both excellent investments) for use with other meshes. I can even use them to replace the crap textures that come with the g characters I have purchased. (Look Ma! No more painted on underboob shadows on the latest and greatest g figures!).

If one uses all of the tools available, one's options expand exponentially. "Learned Helplessness" isn't a Poser thing.

My prep workflow for content massively smooths my workflow when I am actually Making Art.

My prep workflow is "convoluted" because too many vendors are still living in Oct 2007. They are unwilling to leverage any post-Poser 7 feature, even if it would make their lives easier. Example: I actually had a vendor tell me they didn't have time to learn the features of Poser 9, while they were developing their 1st clothing product for Dawn, a character that only works in Poser 9 or higher. If you don't understand how weight mapping works, your clothing product probably won't be all that good. Just Sayin'. I just fix what needs fixing and go about Making Art.

Nothing would make me happier than to see vendors drop character body morphs from clothing for example - it would make life easier for them and easier for the me. The reason they don't is because they cater to the rank beginners and folks that are aggressively uninterested in learning how to make the software go. This is why my prep workflow is "convoluted".

Nothing would make me happier than to see vendors at 'Rosity actually follow the sales guidelines for materials (material files in the materials subfolder, .mc6 required, .pz2s optional - Poser native PCFs for g content. DSON is a kludge); They don't, again because they cater to the folks that are still using a Poser 7 workflow, instead of leveraging the power of the current version (Even though 90+% of us are running Poser 9 or later) . This is why my prep workflow is "convoluted".

Nothing would make me happier than to see vendors leave DOS naming conventions behind, so I don't have to restructure/rename nearly every d@#$ed file and folder (and as an added bonus, the search function in Poser would actually work). This is why my prep workflow is "convoluted".

Nothing would make me happier than to see vendors actually THINK about how their product will be used by the end user. Example - hiding everything in an ego folder insures the customer can't find it. This is why my prep workflow is "convoluted".

Nothing would make me happier than to see clothing vendors THINK before they put everything in a runtime. If they make [cool add-on] for [Foo Outfit], use the same file structure as [Foo Outfit], so when it is installed, it is dropped in with the [Foo Outfit] materials, so the enduser can find it. This is why my prep workflow is "convoluted".

A lot of features have been added to Poser due to vendor intransigence. It is why we have the fitting room, it is why we have access to the API via the add-on framework (it is where all of those little niche features are added by 3rd parties), it's why we have copy Morphs From, etc.

Tools are there, but for some, it is easier to whine than learn to use them.

If there's no Hot Babe that has a killer rig to Render. Debating about software ,tools etc etc is pointless. The #1 thing Poser has to have is a new Queen.There's no Kingdome with out her. All the trouble n civil war started when the old Queen left. It's simple No Queen ,No Poser.

RorrKonn posted at 10:46AM Wed, 22 November 2017 - #4318498

If there's no Hot Babe that has a killer rig to Render. Debating about software ,tools etc etc is pointless. The #1 thing Poser has to have is a new Queen.There's no Kingdome with out her. All the trouble n civil war started when the old Queen left. It's simple No Queen ,No Poser.

Xmas 2017.

By MLK weekend, the Poser community will be saying Vicky Who?

ssgbryan posted at 5:43PM Wed, 22 November 2017 - #4318531

RorrKonn posted at 10:46AM Wed, 22 November 2017 - #4318498

If there's no Hot Babe that has a killer rig to Render. Debating about software ,tools etc etc is pointless. The #1 thing Poser has to have is a new Queen.There's no Kingdome with out her. All the trouble n civil war started when the old Queen left. It's simple No Queen ,No Poser.

Xmas 2017.

By MLK weekend, the Poser community will be saying Vicky Who?

You mean like they did years and years ago when Genesis came out?

ssgbryan posted at 6:57PM Wed, 22 November 2017 - #4318531

RorrKonn posted at 10:46AM Wed, 22 November 2017 - #4318498

If there's no Hot Babe that has a killer rig to Render. Debating about software ,tools etc etc is pointless. The #1 thing Poser has to have is a new Queen.There's no Kingdome with out her. All the trouble n civil war started when the old Queen left. It's simple No Queen ,No Poser.

Xmas 2017.

By MLK weekend, the Poser community will be saying Vicky Who?

Talk about cruelty to animals .Must have a lot more in info and renders lots n lots n a wireframe or two :)

'Geo-grafting is simply parenting another object/prop to a character. We've been able to do that since at least Poser 5, that I am personally aware of. It does have a fancier name though.'

Actually it is far more, a geograft becomes part of the mesh, not a parented prop in any way.

3anson posted at 6:12PM Wed, 22 November 2017 - #4318552

'Geo-grafting is simply parenting another object/prop to a character. We've been able to do that since at least Poser 5, that I am personally aware of. It does have a fancier name though.'

Actually it is far more, a geograft becomes part of the mesh, not a parented prop in any way.

And how does that become an advantage?

Boolean is Boolean OK .ssgbryan Show n tell us about this hot new character for Poser ,ya :)

ssgbryan posted at 7:12AM Thu, 23 November 2017 - #4318558

3anson posted at 6:12PM Wed, 22 November 2017 - #4318552

'Geo-grafting is simply parenting another object/prop to a character. We've been able to do that since at least Poser 5, that I am personally aware of. It does have a fancier name though.'

Actually it is far more, a geograft becomes part of the mesh, not a parented prop in any way.

And how does that become an advantage?

the advantage is, that it becomes "part of the mesh". No gap between the conformed figure and the host figure. No transparency map for the edges needed. Poser needs something like that. Agree to RorrKonn. Poser will finally have a Queen. I'd say: the first real Queen. Xmas will be special this year. :-)

How we got stuck on Boolean I'll never know and why are we calling Boolean geo-grafting I'll never know that either. Would be so helpful if all the app's called the same tools the same thing.

Anyways if you geo-graft 2 rigged meshes together .Does the rigs n morphs still work ?Does it mess the UV Maps up ?If not you would still have a odd place where the 2 different textures are. you know like a seem. right ? Does normal n displacement maps still work ?

I have stated before - I have lots of V4 outfits that have never been worn by V4 in my stories. My bloated V4 clothing runtimes are available for any figure I care to use. Hair is decoupled from figures thanks to Netherworks' Hair Control System. I harvest V4/M4 textures via Texture Transformer and Texture Converter (both excellent investments) for use with other meshes.">>snip<<

Hmm...... here is the problem (from a marketing& businees survival perspective) Poser loyalists are still using V4 and her content as their standard. poser will not survive unless there is growth its user base from NEW users.That is the reality of market growth.

New users want to see NEW stuff.

No new user gets excited about an Iphone because it is promoted as being able to run some 10 year old app from IOS 1.5 with some "extra steps" involved

No new user gets excited about an android phone because it still supports some 10 year old app from android 3.1 with some "extra steps" involved.

No video gamer gets excited about a game platform because technically you can get it run/play "Duke Nukem"with some "extra steps" involved.

Sure it remains possible for us DS users to still use V4 's catalogue on the genesis figures via the autofit technology in DS, but spend some time in the Daz forums and it becomes obvious that content buyers have long since moved on to the new stuff being sold.

And V4 Clothing is made even less relevant by the new built in hybrid Dforce cloth engine in DS that makes any CONFORMER dynamic.

Put the $349 VS $0 USD price disparity aside for a moment.

And try to convince a new user to learn those clever 8 step hacks to use older V4 clothing from the crumbling caves of the past.

Or give them the option of DS ,the lates genesis figures and automatic use of the new and shiny content being sold in the Daz store daily and it is a no brainer which platform the new user is going to choose.

wolf359 posted at 3:15PM Sun, 26 November 2017 - #4318687

I have stated before - I have lots of V4 outfits that have never been worn by V4 in my stories. My bloated V4 clothing runtimes are available for any figure I care to use. Hair is decoupled from figures thanks to Netherworks' Hair Control System. I harvest V4/M4 textures via Texture Transformer and Texture Converter (both excellent investments) for use with other meshes.">>snip<<

Hmm...... here is the problem (from a marketing& businees survival perspective) Poser loyalists are still using V4 and her content as their standard. poser will not survive unless there is growth its user base from NEW users.That is the reality of market growth.

New users want to see NEW stuff.

No new user gets excited about an Iphone because it is promoted as being able to run some 10 year old app from IOS 1.5 with some "extra steps" involved

No new user gets excited about an android phone because it still supports some 10 year old app from android 3.1 with some "extra steps" involved.

No video gamer gets excited about a game platform because technically you can get it run/play "Duke Nukem"with some "extra steps" involved.

Sure it remains possible for us DS users to still use V4 's catalogue on the genesis figures via the autofit technology in DS, but spend some time in the Daz forums and it becomes obvious that content buyers have long since moved on to the new stuff being sold.

And V4 Clothing is made even less relevant by the new built in hybrid Dforce cloth engine in DS that makes any CONFORMER dynamic.

Put the $349 VS $0 USD price disparity aside for a moment.

And try to convince a new user to learn those clever 8 step hacks to use older V4 clothing from the crumbling caves of the past.

Or give them the option of DS ,the lates genesis figures and automatic use of the new and shiny content being sold in the Daz store daily and it is a no brainer which platform the new user is going to choose.

I object ,I object .to the $0,000,000.00 Cause after you go shopping it's a long long very long ways from $0,000,000.00 ;)

oh & Posers is only $64.99

wolf359 posted at 1:38PM Sun, 26 November 2017 - #4318687

I have stated before - I have lots of V4 outfits that have never been worn by V4 in my stories. My bloated V4 clothing runtimes are available for any figure I care to use. Hair is decoupled from figures thanks to Netherworks' Hair Control System. I harvest V4/M4 textures via Texture Transformer and Texture Converter (both excellent investments) for use with other meshes.">>snip<<

Hmm...... here is the problem (from a marketing& businees survival perspective) Poser loyalists are still using V4 and her content as their standard. poser will not survive unless there is growth its user base from NEW users.That is the reality of market growth.

New users want to see NEW stuff.

No new user gets excited about an Iphone because it is promoted as being able to run some 10 year old app from IOS 1.5 with some "extra steps" involved

No new user gets excited about an android phone because it still supports some 10 year old app from android 3.1 with some "extra steps" involved.

No video gamer gets excited about a game platform because technically you can get it run/play "Duke Nukem"with some "extra steps" involved.

Sure it remains possible for us DS users to still use V4 's catalogue on the genesis figures via the autofit technology in DS, but spend some time in the Daz forums and it becomes obvious that content buyers have long since moved on to the new stuff being sold.

And V4 Clothing is made even less relevant by the new built in hybrid Dforce cloth engine in DS that makes any CONFORMER dynamic.

Put the $349 VS $0 USD price disparity aside for a moment.

And try to convince a new user to learn those clever 8 step hacks to use older V4 clothing from the crumbling caves of the past.

Or give them the option of DS ,the lates genesis figures and automatic use of the new and shiny content being sold in the Daz store daily and it is a no brainer which platform the new user is going to choose.

Is that really the hill you want to die on?

I've been haunting the DS forums since 2004 - those fine folks have been recycling the same "vision" of art since V3 - single image pinup/fantasy art. DS is fine, IF one is willing to live with it's small, walled garden - it is limited in both content and tools available. Dforce? Yay! DS is catching up to Poser 5.

I'm a Poser Pro 11 user - I don't have a walled garden, I have 40 acres and a mule. Yes, my workflow is a bit convoluted, I don't live with a Poser 4 workflow - but if I was doing the same, single image pin up art that beginners do, 90% of those steps aren't necessary. What I do CAN'T be done in DS, because DS doesn't have the tools necessary to execute my vision.

New users aren't going to see NEW stuff, regardless of figure, when vendors are hell-bent that they aren't going to make NEW stuff. There are a LOT of things I would like to buy, but vendors don't make it. So I have two choices - not execute my vision, or bend, fold, mutilate, or kitbash what I own. I choose to execute my vision.

On to specifics......

Go look at characters being made - doesn't matter what the base mesh is, they all look alike. Vendors use the same exact features, regardless of base mesh - they use the exact same physical features, and/or they use the same skin textures with no changes. (Pick a vendor and look at their main promo images for each character they make - they all look related.)

AFA content, we had a much wider variety of content back in the V3/M3 era than we do today. Fortunately, that doesn't matter for Poser users - we pick the figures we want to use, the clothing we want to use, and have at it. We have magnitudes of more content than the competition. We can do this because the tools are in the software, not the figures.

BTW, let me know when a DS vendor figures out how to make movement morphs for their clothing, like we had with that "ancient" V4 (or V3 for that matter). BTW, how much of that "new" content is recycled from earlier figures? Here's a hint - if it can use textures from earlier content - it is the same product. Take a look at the period content for the g figures - a lot of it is just recycled V4/M4 content, as are shoes.

As a Poser user, I am not repurchasing content I already own. Nor am I dropping $20 on an outfit (with 1 or 2 textures), when I can get literally hundreds of them for $1.99 (or less). I was picking up characters and clothing for V4/M4 for 52 cents apiece.

DS is great, IF your goal is to be a 3rd rate Elvgrin wannabe. But, to move beyond that - they have to expand their skills, just like Poser users.

If I limit myself to any figure OTHER than M4/V4, how do I clothe characters in a period (any period) piece? How do I clothe characters in a professional environment? How do I clothe characters in the spring, fall or winter?

Answer - you can't, without either autofitting (for DS) or Fit room (Poser) M4/V4 content. V4/M4 is the common language for Poser/DS, due to the length of time those meshes were available, and the sheer glut of content made for them.

Think I'm kidding? Pick any figure not named M4/V4 and try to get them a very basic wardrobe (1 week of clothing, per season) using only clothing for that g figure.

A DS user will be autofitting the hell out of clothing content (usually M4/V4), just like a Poser user.

Here's another one for you - I need stock a Star Trek ship with figures - they need to be in the same uniform. As you try to get everyone in the same outfit, how many ethnic groups can you manage? I can get Sydney (Jessi, Olivia), Dawn, Roxie, Miki (1-4), P6Jessi, Pauline, Eroko, Alyson, Kez, Scarlett, V2, V3, V4, V5, V6, and V7 in the same V4 Courageous outfit. The same can be said for male figures. SM characters, Daz Characters, 3rd party characters - it's all grist for the mill.

Why do all of those figures matter? Because I need more than early 20's Caucasians. Each mesh may only have 2 or 3 separate ethnic characters, BUT with enough base characters, I can get a nice, diverse group. Try that with only using 1 base figure. As a Poser user, I can do that, because I have many more figures available to me.

As far as that "price disparity"? If you want Poser Pro's tool set - you'll be spending more than $349 for add-ons. And you still can't leverage as much as one can with Poser.

"BTW, let me know when a DS vendor figures out how to make movement morphs for their clothing"

Most of them have tons of movement morphs. It helps if you look at the what's included list. If you are going to make an argument, please do so without bias.

" Because I need more than early 20's Caucasians. Each mesh may only have 2 or 3 separate ethnic characters, BUT with enough base characters, I can get a nice, diverse group. Try that with only using 1 base figure. As a Poser user, I can do that, because I have many more figures available to me."

You can get all that on one base and be able to blend them together. Nothing is more powerful than that system. Why do you think more people use it? The days of loading different meshes for specific characters are long gone my friend, when they can all exist on a single mesh. The G tech is the standard for figure diversity and flexibility. Please loose the old school way of thinking. It is not convenient at all. If this is your argument then sadly you have failed.

Ok you talk all this Oh Poser can do this and that. Can we see your results? Let us put your theories to the test. Let us see if your images based on your preferences are of standard that most uses want as an end result vs effort involved. Let us see if your comments can be justified end result wise, or if it is just personal preference. Show us some of your work?

MartinX posted at 4:48AM Mon, 27 November 2017 - #4318699

"BTW, let me know when a DS vendor figures out how to make movement morphs for their clothing"

Most of them have tons of movement morphs. It helps if you look at the what's included list. If you are going to make an argument, please do so without bias.

" Because I need more than early 20's Caucasians. Each mesh may only have 2 or 3 separate ethnic characters, BUT with enough base characters, I can get a nice, diverse group. Try that with only using 1 base figure. As a Poser user, I can do that, because I have many more figures available to me."

You can get all that on one base and be able to blend them together. Nothing is more powerful than that system. Why do you think more people use it? The days of loading different meshes for specific characters are long gone my friend, when they can all exist on a single mesh. The G tech is the standard for figure diversity and flexibility. Please loose the old school way of thinking. It is not convenient at all. If this is your argument then sadly you have failed.

Ok you talk all this Oh Poser can do this and that. Can we see your results? Let us put your theories to the test. Let us see if your images based on your preferences are of standard that most uses want as an end result vs effort involved. Let us see if your comments can be justified end result wise, or if it is just personal preference. Show us some of your work?

And can we see YOUR results?

wimvdb posted at 11:09PM Sun, 26 November 2017 - #4318705

MartinX posted at 4:48AM Mon, 27 November 2017 - #4318699

"BTW, let me know when a DS vendor figures out how to make movement morphs for their clothing"

Most of them have tons of movement morphs. It helps if you look at the what's included list. If you are going to make an argument, please do so without bias.

" Because I need more than early 20's Caucasians. Each mesh may only have 2 or 3 separate ethnic characters, BUT with enough base characters, I can get a nice, diverse group. Try that with only using 1 base figure. As a Poser user, I can do that, because I have many more figures available to me."

You can get all that on one base and be able to blend them together. Nothing is more powerful than that system. Why do you think more people use it? The days of loading different meshes for specific characters are long gone my friend, when they can all exist on a single mesh. The G tech is the standard for figure diversity and flexibility. Please loose the old school way of thinking. It is not convenient at all. If this is your argument then sadly you have failed.

Ok you talk all this Oh Poser can do this and that. Can we see your results? Let us put your theories to the test. Let us see if your images based on your preferences are of standard that most uses want as an end result vs effort involved. Let us see if your comments can be justified end result wise, or if it is just personal preference. Show us some of your work?

And can we see YOUR results?

I'll accept MartinX's challenge....

MartinX will start moving the goal posts, just as he did here. I don't see DS characters out it the wild (outside of 3d porn), but I do see the SM figures - sometimes in the most unlikely places. The reality is that Poser is the 3d worlds dirty little secret. If you need to whip something up using human figures on a very tight deadline, a lot of art departments whip out their copy of Poser, pose the SM figures and import it into another part of their workflow - which is why I see the SM figures at the grocery store, on safety cards when I am flying, etc.

What he is demanding is subjective, which is precisely why he moved those goal posts. All images are based on the artist's personal preferences, as I am sure he is well aware of. In the end, he is demanding that I work within his views as to what DS "uses" want. Like I care what they want.

There are two schools of thought on figures - right tool for the right job, or try to do everything with one tool. I belong to the former.

My position is that in Poser, clothing is divorced from figures. As such, I can use any character that strikes my fancy. As an example (V4 Courageous Test):

In this example, I have from left to right - Dawn, Kez, The Girl (V3 gen), Michelle, Anastasia (Alyson 2), P6 Jessi, Miki 2, Mariko, G2 Jessi, & V3. I don't have Roxie, or Pauline here (running out of memory) - and Eroko is still tied up down in security (Bonus points if you get the reference.) The only thing that is difficult to move is shoes. There is no 1-click solution for those, since it depends on how the base character's foot is posed.

My position is that I have more characters to choose from than he does. I can use every one he does, along with literally hundreds that he can't.

My position is that I can put any character into any outfit. I can use every outfit he can use, along with literally hundreds that he can't - short of pulling it into a modeling program and rebuilding it.

My position is that I don't have to go buy a bunch of new characters, outfits, etc every time a new version of Poser is released. I can simply leverage what I already own, and add new tech to legacy meshes, which lowers my TCO costs.

My question is how does MartinX get the V4 Courageous outfit on non-g figures in DS.

Outside of the DS version of Dawn, the answer is that he can't - so he will prattle on about he he doesn't "need" or "want" any non-g figure.

I'm guessing that DS users are getting a little concerned with Project E just having a projected Xmas release date. We usually see an uptick of concern trolls when a new Poser figure approaches release.

Poser Pro 11 - 40 acres and a mule.......

ssgbryan posted at 7:57AM Mon, 27 November 2017 - #4318710

My question is how does MartinX get the V4 Courageous outfit on non-g figures in DS.

Outside of the DS version of Dawn, the answer is that he can't - so he will prattle on about he he doesn't "need" or "want" any non-g figure.

Isn't that the different workflow in the programs that MartinX is pointing out?

As you say, in Poser, the program has become flexible to be able to handle multiple characters, while DS has made the figure flexible to be able handle multiple characters.

Each approach has it advantages and disadvantages.

Is the poser approach really offering you more figures, or are you forced to use more figures because Poser can't morph them too far from their original shapes?

prixat posted at 3:52AM Mon, 27 November 2017 - #4318711

Each approach has it advantages and disadvantages.

Is the poser approach really offering you more figures, or are you forced to use more figures because Poser can't morph them too far from their original shapes?

Poser can handle as many morphs as you can throw at it in a figure. Even Paul was morphed to a preteen boy. Using ColorCurvature's PML script, I was able to convert all of my DAZ Generation 3 figures into one master base mesh. (I think I used M3 as the master mesh, IIRC). Everybody from the Freak to the mill kids are now morphs of the same mesh in Poser. The only two that I don't have are She Freak and the Girl 3. I haven't copied all of their joint parameters over yet, (because it was just another one of my rigging experiments) but Poser's automated joint center tool didn't do such a bad job, just needs some cleaning up in spots. Mostly in fingers.

You are right - each approach has its advantages and disadvantages, and each program has made moves in terms of tools and utilities that diminish the end user's dependency on waiting for vendors to build the clothing they want for the figure they want to use.

prixat posted at 1:46AM Mon, 27 November 2017 - [#4318711](#msg4318711

Isn't that the different workflow in the programs that MartinX is pointing out?

As you say, in Poser, the program has become flexible to be able to handle multiple characters, while DS has made the figure flexible to be able handle multiple characters.

Each approach has it advantages and disadvantages

Is the poser approach really offering you more figures, or are you forced to use more figures because Poser can't morph them too far from their original shapes?

More figures, More features. If the new tech is in the figure, it can't be backported to earlier figures. With Poser, I can take the Poser 2 Low Res figure, weight map it, subdivide it. In this example, the Poser2 LoRes Female in all of it's glory - stock on the left, updated on the right.

Why does this matter? Because in my Star Trek Universe, if a ship has 430 people, I shouldn't have empty corridors. I use these for filling empty spaces.

More Figures: If I load every morph set I have for Sydney (and I have about 100 characters for them), she has as many morphs (and is just as heavy, memory wise) as a fully loaded V4. Both approach 350Mb. The real difference between DAZ figures and other figures is that the DAZ figures have a cottage industry built around fixing the shortcomings of the figure. The others don't have that.

Do you know what the percentage of DAZ figures are Caucasian? It's over 92% (I've actually counted - that number has gone up since g3 dropped). In the stuff I do, I have people ranging in age from 5 to 90+. In addition, my cast of characters may not be up to David Weber proportions, but I still have lots of folks running around - all ages, all ethnicities. That is damned near impossible to using just 1 male and 1 female mesh.

The thing is - Vendors COULD do so much more with the g figures than they actually do. They were quite creative during the g1 era. Now everything is just a repeat of what they have done before.

More characters: Daz is the only platform with kids outside of the Hivewire baby, Luna. DAZ vendors are making little girls, but they aren't making little boys. What is being made is mostly dial-spins with no skin textures - It's kinda hard to use the g series skin textures on little boys, what with the facial stubble and all. Again, another reason I use many characters - back during the V3 era, we had this Bishi nonsense for H3 - I can move those textures over to my g male kids and I don't have to worry about excess body hair.

Back to using different base meshes. Consider the following:

Each figure has a completely different set of morphs, so I am more likely different looking figures. Especially when they use different texture maps. Too many Poser/DS vendors Caucasianize their ethnic characters - it went from being annoying to creepy a long time ago.

The most realistic black characters I have ever seen are those made by Reciecup. Reciecup is a black woman, so she gets all of the little details right. Most vendors simply slap a dark skin texture on their Caucasians and consider them done (and proceed to give them blue eyes, but no black ones).

If I need an Asian female, which makes more sense, loading one of the Miki series (a realistically sized, realistically proportioned Asian woman. I have 100+ of them) or an Asian Daz figure, that I have to wrestle with to get her to the right height, and correct eye colors. In fact, the main reason that the SM figures are my go-tos is because they ARE realistically sized. Victoria is 5'10" in DS and around 6' in Poser - that is less than 3% of the female population. The numbers for males are similar. I have to wrestle down every DAZ figure to ensure that they are around average (5' 5" female, 5'10 male.) V4/M4 have a quick fix - Lyrra's height scales. With other characters, I can use ColorCurvatures M4/K4 mixer - it works on any 2 characters based on the same mesh (I have the following mixes - V3/Sp3, V3/L3, Sp3/L3, V2/Mk, M3/D3, M3/L3, and D3/L3.) It's a bit harder to do in DS, with the way the dials/Layout is structured. Too much stuff to scroll through when you have either a large runtime, or make the mistake of letting DIM install everything, IMO.

In addition, vendors have a tendency to repeat features in every single character they make. It doesn't take long to go through a storefront and start to recognize tendencies that the vendors go back to repeatedly. I'll use Anagord as an example (because it starts with an A and I own a number of their products across several base meshes). Go look at their figures - they all have the exact same mouth structure. I like the characters, but I end up having to dial out the mouth. Thorne Sarsa (back when they made characters) same anime eyes, same small high breasts, same thin body structure. It follows through with all of the DAZ figures because the morphs are pretty much the same across all of the base meshes. Some vendors even use the exact same texture set across every single character they make (to include makeup). Which is annoying when paying the inflated prices of the g figures.

It is harder to do when the morph sets aren't the same (Which doesn't stop vendors from trying to replicate the exact same look across different meshes.).

More Features:

I don't feel the DS figures are more flexible. Consider the following:

To get new features, you have to purchase new characters. DS users can't add facial bones to g2 or earlier figures - but I can add control surfaces to any figure. If I want to use the Superfly render engine - I don't have to purchase Iray shaders. I load up EZSkin 3 and it converts them (at no cost to me.) It is much cheaper for me to move skin textures from 1 figure to another via Texture Transformer or Texture Converter (or both) than it is within DS.

Now let me combine the two. Over in the Star Trek thread, a couple of DS folks have been desperately looking for a g version of TNG's Borg Chick (Seven of Nine, aka Jerri Ryan).

So far, no joy (for them).

I have the V3 version made by Orion 1167. With a lot of work with Gen2x, DS users could get that into a g figure (if they have a copy of the V3 version AND are willing to do the work - most aren't - they want 1-click solutions).

I simply load the character into my WM version of V3, and run the skin through EZSkin 3. Easier, Faster. She is the Andoran on the far right side of the image I posted earlier. That isn't all I have done with it, however. I took that dial spin and converted it (2-clicks) into a single FBM. Now with the "Copy Morphs" command, I can copy that FBM into a blank, WM V3. It now only takes 50 or so Mb of memory instead of 200Mb. Memory becomes an issue when an artist moves outside of single image stills (On OSX, Poser starts to get sluggish over 7Gb). Now, if I don't like the results of that EZSkin 3 conversion, I can put almost any female skin I own onto the mesh (bounce from Texture Transformer and then final conversion via Texture Converter.

With Poser, it's all about the TCO (total cost of ownership).

Let's say, that Poser is the best programm ever. It still doesn't have one single good figure - yet. But there is hope. Looking foreward to christmas.

"To get new features, you have to purchase new characters. DS users can't add facial bones to g2 or earlier figures -

Wrong..again The figure set up tools, that ship with DS, allow adding bones for anyone who cares to do the work for a face bone rig.

Why would a DS want to add face bone to G2?? when they can just transfer any favorite V3,V4,G1,G2 character up to G3 using th GENX 2 plugin.

How did a face bone rig help "pauline's" campaign to be the "queen" of poser??

If I want to use the Superfly render engine - I don't have to purchase Iray shaders.

IRay will render any bitmapped based textures & do it with SSS obviously Iray metals and emssives need IRay shaders

It is much cheaper for me to move skin textures.

G1 and G2 can wear every skin map ever made for V4/M4 by clicking a button to switch UV's the Cayman studios UV set for G3/8 allows this same option but frankly most DS are using NEW textures from THIS Decade

"Now let me combine the two. Over in the Star Trek thread, a couple of DS folks have been desperately looking for a g version of TNG's Borg Chick (Seven of Nine, aka Jerri Ryan). So far, no joy (for them)."

Well darn!! you got us there friend in the realm of rendering a CG look alike of some old, bug eyed, post wall actress who has dissapeared from the scene, (much like V4's Dusty old content has)

Poser wins again!!

I don't see DS characters out it the wild (outside of 3d porn),

Try looking at some professional CG online communities you see ,unlike paul& pauline, Daz Genesis is widely embrace and supported with plugins for use in professional environments

http://www.3dtoall.com/products/daztomaya</http:>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yub0-lKubrs

Go look at characters being made - doesn't matter what the base mesh is, they all look alike.

Dont blame peoples preferences/fetishes for 20 something, low BMI ,white girls on the Daz tech ..that is a social issue

After I quickly outgrew the whole "Digital Comic" thing I moved up to animated films here is a clip from one of my projects.

Figures are: Daz Mike 3 the original Daz Freak based on Mike3 A stand alone figure for poser Called 'BEO2K"

And Daz genesis 1 and Genesis 2 most wearing some variation of ONE Bodysuit from vendor "Hellfish studios" with no "fitting room" sessions or eight step workflows just move slider create different character both human& alien.

Video link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2TYEp536iB8aVBBdHJWRE9jODg/view

the one you love to hate

I can break you I can raise you Bring you to your knees Cause I'm the one you love to hate.

You can't fool me You can't rule me You only want to hang around Cause I'm the one you love to hate.

wolf359 posted at 4:27PM Mon, 27 November 2017 - [#4318720](#msg4318720

Well darn!! you got us there friend in the realm of rendering a CG look alike of some old, bug eyed, post wall actress who has dissapeared from the scene, (much like V4's Dusty old content has)

Poser wins again!!

If you are doing a ST TNG comic, and want to use characters that the target audience would recognize, then yeah, it would be kinda important. These folks aren't invested in Cinema3d like you. They are hobbyists - you aren't.

For someone that doesn't use Poser, you spend an awful lot of time concern trolling in the Poser forums.

RorrKonn posted at 1:50AM Tue, 28 November 2017 - #4318735

the one you love to hate

I can break you I can raise you Bring you to your knees Cause I'm the one you love to hate.

You can't fool me You can't rule me You only want to hang around Cause I'm the one you love to hate.

O.T.: Love that album ;-)

What drives me mad about Poser is, that it is allmost amaizing. ALLMOST. If it was just bad, you could say meh and ignore it, but it excites brings you up and allmost there, right before the top, it lets you down. DARN !!!

AmbientShade posted at 8:31AM Tue, 28 November 2017 - #4318713

Poser can handle as many morphs as you can throw at it in a figure. Even Paul was morphed to a preteen boy. Using ColorCurvature's PML script, I was able to convert all of my DAZ Generation 3 figures into one master base mesh. (I think I used M3 as the master mesh, IIRC). Everybody from the Freak to the mill kids are now morphs of the same mesh in Poser. The only two that I don't have are She Freak and the Girl 3. I haven't copied all of their joint parameters over yet, (because it was just another one of my rigging experiments) but Poser's automated joint center tool didn't do such a bad job, just needs some cleaning up in spots. Mostly in fingers.

You are right - each approach has its advantages and disadvantages, and each program has made moves in terms of tools and utilities that diminish the end user's dependency on waiting for vendors to build the clothing they want for the figure they want to use.

Thanks, that was what I was asking, could all of ssgbryan's Star Trek characters have been morphed from G2 Jessi for example? ...and why weren't they?

Whether one prefers to use one single mesh for all characters, or several different meshes to get the job done, is totally up to individual preferences. Neither is more 'correct' than the other, and I wish some people would stop preaching that other people are 'doing it wrong', just because they prefer a different method! The end result is the same, so why not just let people do what they want?

DreaminGirl posted at 2:59PM Tue, 28 November 2017 - #4318768

Whether one prefers to use one single mesh for all characters, or several different meshes to get the job done, is totally up to individual preferences. Neither is more 'correct' than the other, and I wish some people would stop preaching that other people are 'doing it wrong', just because they prefer a different method! The end result is the same, so why not just let people do what they want?

I appreciate your attempt to ease the waves, but the question has been "where is Poser going?". It is obvious, that Poser cannot be taylored to everone's individual needs. It is natural, that users try to pull Poser in their direction. It doesn't make sense to surpress an argueing, it is more important, that this arguing remains fair, without personal attacks and insults.

-Timberwolf- posted at 3:23PM Tue, 28 November 2017 - #4318773

I appreciate your attempt to ease the waves, but the question has been "where is Poser going?". It is obvious, that Poser cannot be taylored to everone's individual needs. It is natural, that users try to pull Poser in their direction. It doesn't make sense to surpress an argueing, it is more important, that this arguing remains fair, without personal attacks and insults.

Oh I agree, it's just that it seems so many doing the 'pulling' are people who don't even USE Poser. Like so many have said before, if Poser becomes a DS clone, what is the point of Poser?

prixat posted at 10:07AM Tue, 28 November 2017 - #4318765

Thanks, that was what I was asking, could all of ssgbryan's Star Trek characters have been morphed from G2 Jessi for example? ...and why weren't they?

Technically yes. It can be done with any set of figures that share the same base mesh. With Poser native figures, each of them have their own meshes, so in order to accomplish it with them you'd have to first choose a mesh you want to serve as your master mesh, then project all the shapes of the other figures you want to use onto that mesh using a program that is good at doing such a thing, such as zbrush. Bring each one back into Poser as an FBM and then adjust the rigging to match that morph via animated joint centers (Poser 11 will do the rigging part of it for you but the results are not always spot-on so there will be areas you need to adjust by hand). Rinse and repeat until you have all the figure shapes in that mesh that you want it to have.

AmbientShade posted at 4:45PM Tue, 28 November 2017 - #4318778

Technically yes. It can be done with any set of figures that share the same base mesh. With Poser native figures, each of them have their own meshes, so in order to accomplish it with them you'd have to first choose a mesh you want to serve as your master mesh, then project all the shapes of the other figures you want to use onto that mesh using a program that is good at doing such a thing, such as zbrush. Bring each one back into Poser as an FBM and then adjust the rigging to match that morph via animated joint centers (Poser 11 will do the rigging part of it for you but the results are not always spot-on so there will be areas you need to adjust by hand). Rinse and repeat until you have all the figure shapes in that mesh that you want it to have.

Will doing all that save a lot of time eventually?

Or will it always be quicker to just use different figures with the fitting room etc.?

DreaminGirl posted at 11:44AM Tue, 28 November 2017 - #4318775

Oh I agree, it's just that it seems so many doing the 'pulling' are people who don't even USE Poser. Like so many have said before, if Poser becomes a DS clone, what is the point of Poser?

The 'master mesh' concept doesn't make Poser a DS clone by itself. Technically it's been possible in Poser going back to Apollo Maximus. The tools Poser has provided over the last few versions have made it even easier to create a master mesh type figure, without making anyone dependent on it if they don't like that concept. There are a couple key ingredients it's lacking in order to be complete. UV swapping (so that textures don't get stretched with extreme morphs) and proper geometry swapping/grafting that doesn't break weight maps. That and removing the dependency on a mesh being broken into groups, so that all figures are truly single mesh. No more duplicated verts. If Poser 12 had just those 3 features I'd be happier than a sailor in a cat house and would buy 3 copies. But removing group dependency is apparently not an easy task, at least as I understand it. Adding features to the fitting room so that the results can be redistributed as morphs without violating copyrights would also be pretty awesome.

prixat posted at 12:10PM Tue, 28 November 2017 - #4318786

Will doing all that save a lot of time eventually?

Or will it always be quicker to just use different figures with the fitting room etc.?

It's a time saver in the long run if you're willing to invest the time up front to make it all work. Because when you do it once you don't have to worry about it again. You'd have to go through and fit all your clothing to the mesh and all its shapes too of course, but again, once you do it once you don't have to worry about it later except for adding fits to any new clothing you buy - which you would be doing anyway if you wanted that new clothing to work on a figure it wasn't designed for. So I guess it depends on your point of view and workflow as to which approach would be easier.

To give a point of reference - it took me about an hour to convert all my generation 3 figures into one mesh and match the centers to the morph. That was using the PML script to load all the characters as morphs. Again I didn't go back and do any cleanup on the rigging and I didn't add any of the shaping morphs that each of those figures originally came with. So in all, once you get a rythm going, to get a fully functioning figure would probably take a couple dedicated days to do a clean job of it.

I wonder if there would be a market for that, like a "Shapes for Jesse" product?

(unless there's one I've missed or it's requires illegal distribution or something)

ssgbryan posted at 12:49PM Tue, 28 November 2017 - #4318716

prixat posted at 1:46AM Mon, 27 November 2017 - [#4318711](#msg4318711

Isn't that the different workflow in the programs that MartinX is pointing out?

As you say, in Poser, the program has become flexible to be able to handle multiple characters, while DS has made the figure flexible to be able handle multiple characters.

Each approach has it advantages and disadvantages

Is the poser approach really offering you more figures, or are you forced to use more figures because Poser can't morph them too far from their original shapes?

More figures, More features. If the new tech is in the figure, it can't be backported to earlier figures. With Poser, I can take the Poser 2 Low Res figure, weight map it, subdivide it. In this example, the Poser2 LoRes Female in all of it's glory - stock on the left, updated on the right.

And why hasn't SM done this with the content they supply? I have wished for ages at they would stop distributing the old content with its P4 materials and low-res .jpg textures. Instead, those could all be put somewhere online as optional content with a clear disclaimer as to why they are not part of the default content. And instead, updated versions of each should be released with each new version of Poser. When SSS was added to the mat room, the figures from version 2 on should have had their materials updated. When weight-mapping debuted in Poser, the figures from version 2 on should have been weight-mapped before the content was packaged. When bullet physics debuted, those figures should have all been set up for soft-body simulation. If I were a new user I either might never look at the older figures and see how they might still be useful, or I might look at them and misjudge how important the figure's level of modernization is to the final image and be left with a bad first impression of the program. Maybe the dream figure some people have been wanting is some ancient figure that's already out there but was never properly brought up to date with Poser itself.

And yes, I know that just like converting clothing from one figure to another this is something all of could each do ourselves. But why should so many community person hours need be eaten up by all of having to do these things when one person could do it and make the results available to everyone else? Every item of clothing could be retro-fitted to every character that the program ships with. It's great that the tools are finally there for us to do things ourselves, but that doesn't do any favors for the sizable percentage of users who do just expect to be able to drop something in and see it working as desired.

You could make your own shapes, but you couldn't use existing shapes like Sydney or Miki for a commercial project without getting SM's approval.

moogal posted at 1:09PM Tue, 28 November 2017 - #4318797

More figures, More features. If the new tech is in the figure, it can't be backported to earlier figures. With Poser, I can take the Poser 2 Low Res figure, weight map it, subdivide it. In this example, the Poser2 LoRes Female in all of it's glory - stock on the left, updated on the right.

And why hasn't SM done this with the content they supply? I have wished for ages at they would stop distributing the old content with its P4 materials and low-res .jpg textures. Instead, those could all be put somewhere online as optional content with a clear disclaimer as to why they are not part of the default content. And instead, updated versions of each should be released with each new version of Poser. When SSS was added to the mat room, the figures from version 2 on should have had their materials updated. When weight-mapping debuted in Poser, the figures from version 2 on should have been weight-mapped before the content was packaged. When bullet physics debuted, those figures should have all been set up for soft-body simulation. If I were a new user I either might never look at the older figures and see how they might still be useful, or I might look at them and misjudge how important the figure's level of modernization is to the final image and be left with a bad first impression of the program. Maybe the dream figure some people have been wanting is some ancient figure that's already out there but was never properly brought up to date with Poser itself.

And yes, I know that just like converting clothing from one figure to another this is something all of could each do ourselves. But why should so many community person hours need be eaten up by all of having to do these things when one person could do it and make the results available to everyone else? Every item of clothing could be retro-fitted to every character that the program ships with. It's great that the tools are finally there for us to do things ourselves, but that doesn't do any favors for the sizable percentage of users who do just expect to be able to drop something in and see it working as desired.

A lot of us have been wanting the same thing. But some of that legacy content is blocked from being modified due to licensing issues. The rest of it is due to time and resource restraints. Some of the content was updated for P11, but there just wasn't enough manpower to do all of it. That would take a lot of time and people to get to all of it. Maybe if more people petitioned SM on their forums to allow updates to older content they would come up with a way to make it happen.

For someone that doesn't use Poser, you spend an awful lot of time concern trolling in the Poser forums."

Beleive what pleases you , but as an animator I still keep poser pro 2014 installed.

I have Commercial animated motion products over at Flipbook market DOTCOM for the DAZ G2 and G3 Figures Since Genesis 2 is technically " poser compatible" via DSON we animation vendors are required to provide QC tested PZ2's for any G2 products as well as DAZ .duf files.

Also I use natural motion Endorphin for my Character work requiring ragdoll physics. It exports PERFECT poser compatible BVH files.

Daz studio has a rubbish BVH importer as it does not offer the option to choose if your incoming BVH has the arms aligned on the X axis or Y axis.

So indeed ,some of my externally generated Motion is filtered through reliable old Mike 3( in poser pro 2014) before being resaved for use in Daz studio.

You understand now ??? ........these are tools to me........... nothing more

Not a religon

Not a fierce tribal affiliation where I must be at war with my hated enemies on the other side.

Unlike yourself , I have no Silly Emotional investment in this stuff

Relax mate.... its just a bit of disposable entertainment.

wolf359 posted at 7:24PM Tue, 28 November 2017 - #4318801

You understand now ??? ........these are tools to me........... nothing more

Not a religon

This should be written in big red Letters on top of any Poser and DAZ Studio forum.

-Timberwolf- posted at 5:34PM Tue, 28 November 2017 - #4318803

wolf359 posted at 7:24PM Tue, 28 November 2017 - #4318801

You understand now ??? ........these are tools to me........... nothing more

Not a religon

This should be written in big red Letters on top of any Poser and DAZ Studio forum.

blasphemer , Lite the fires. Summons the inquisition . LMAO. If Poser DAZ is your religion you seriously need to go n get you some real girls. Before you get Lost

I've watched this vs that for decades now .I thought it was a riot when Autodesk bought Softimage n Maya .But you know ,They still Autodesk Max vs Autodesk Maya ,so now it's Autodesk vs Autodesk LOL.

The best thing that happened to Poser was DAZ n DAZ Studio. DAZ got us Vicky.DAZ Studio got us SubD's. Competition is best for us as long as app's are competing for us .CGI won't stagnate. As long as it keeps growing and getting better I'm good n I so do not care witch company provides me with killer tools as long as there wicked.