First off, I am not a merchant of Poser or Daz Studio content. I am a customer and a hobbyist of both Poser and Daz Studio programs. And have being for well over 10 years. I also do not post a great deal on the forums. But I do read them off and on.

So, one of the things I have noticed over the last few years is a division of my favorite hobby and the community that is part of it.

That division is, as we all know it, is the parting of Daz and Poser content. One does not (simply) work in Poser any more. That is fine! I just had to go and learn how to use the Daz Studio program, it is a fine tool, I should have learned it sooner. As you can guess, I like both programs, they both are excellent tools that help me reach my final product. And that is the creation of creative art images.

Ok! So, lets take a step back. The point of this commentary and my reason for writing this. Today I saw in another thread, two well know merchants fighting about a (new stand-alone model) the other had created for Poser. (Yes! Another well made model for Poser.) A model that is (“needed and wanted”) by the community that will work in Poser.

And from a customer’s point of view. I don’t care what those merchants are fighting about. Yes, I am sure it is important to them (their disagreement). But what I am looking for is a popular new supported stand-alone model for Poser. And the merchant above that created it has done a fine job. And the other merchant should be making content for it, because he is a very good as a content creator. I know, because I own a lot of his products.

Merchants, content creators! You work for your customers, they give you money for well made products that they have a demand for. You know the term, supply and demand? How about the other phrase, the customer is always right? How about being professional and supporting your customers and their community and desires. It is your source of income, is it not? Put yourself in the customers shoes, is it how you would like to be treated? No! So, don’t get mad at me for complaining a bit. All I want is your excellent well-made products. Your reward for doing that is my money and my high ratings on your products. In the end you make more money. We can agree, it is the right thing to do, right?

So, in the end, could we just support this new stand-alone model for Poser? And make it go right for the Poser and Daz community / customers? We will all win in the end, in some way or form.

All I want as a paying customer, is a new supported stand-alone Poser model. It is that simple!

That’s all.

Here's the thing. Yes, vendors look for customer's dollars. However, you simply don't treat your vendors as an afterthought and think they'll just fall in line for a figure. There's lots of figures to support in the market and if you don't treat them right, they'll just pick another, especially when those others have proven to make them money. They have things they could be doing and bills to pay, and at the end of the day, customers look for them to make them items. So it's probably best not to create entitled threads thinking they will bend to your will over an unproven figure.

Just something to think about and It is what it is.

Simply look at the marketplace, they don't HAVE to support the figure you want. So treat them right and give them the respect they deserve.

Uhhhh - or we can learn to model our own content and just make it ourselves.

tbh, making stuff for Poser is not really financially viable, unless the vendor is only creating products for fun or pin money. for those who need to see a reasonable return on their time and effort, they cannot afford to treat the Poser market as a primary one.

infinity10 posted at 11:31PM Wed, 24 January 2018 - #4322982

Uhhhh - or we can learn to model our own content and just make it ourselves.

And that's certainly an option as well. From what I gleaned from that thread and another, that may be the end result. The amount of JCMs may be a serious roadblock in content development, especially in conforming clothing. But honestly, that's the attitude that going to doom your vendor support.

Male_M3dia posted at 1:02PM Thu, 25 January 2018 - #4322984

infinity10 posted at 11:31PM Wed, 24 January 2018 - #4322982

Uhhhh - or we can learn to model our own content and just make it ourselves.

And that's certainly an option as well. From what I gleaned from that thread and another, that may be the end result. The amount of JCMs may be a serious roadblock in content development, especially in conforming clothing. But honestly, that's the attitude that going to doom your vendor support.

Once Artificial Intelligence picks up the JCM creation, we're all set for making our own items. Waiting, waiting....

infinity10 posted at 12:07AM Thu, 25 January 2018 - #4322987

Male_M3dia posted at 1:02PM Thu, 25 January 2018 - #4322984

infinity10 posted at 11:31PM Wed, 24 January 2018 - #4322982

Uhhhh - or we can learn to model our own content and just make it ourselves.

And that's certainly an option as well. From what I gleaned from that thread and another, that may be the end result. The amount of JCMs may be a serious roadblock in content development, especially in conforming clothing. But honestly, that's the attitude that going to doom your vendor support.

Once Artificial Intelligence picks up the JCM creation, we're all set for making our own items. Waiting, waiting....

Until then, it's probably best to give the vendors the respect to keep making the products you want.

Hi Male_M3dia,

I by no means wish to control anything or any subject matter talked about. I was talking about all the models that have come and gone. This last one talked about seems to be heading on the same path that other models have. I as a customer just wish one could be picked and settled on and maybe be taken on to the next level. I really do not care what model it is, I would just like it to be good modern one. I am sorry if I have come across to strong. I am not trying to punish anyone, that was not my point. My only point is we have no new (supported) Poser models. And it has being years and many have been made in that time. What is so hard about it? Daz could even do one. That would be even better. That in it self makes you think! Why haven't they, they have the resources and it would be a money pit for them. In truth, it makes no sense from a marketing point. Why give up that market share? All in all it is a frustrating subject from a customer/user point of view. That is all.

Hi Infinity10,

I am not interested in creating models. My enjoyment is creating / rendering art images. Maybe one day, but for now I just buy them if I have the extra cash.

Eportscreations, you can't tell vendors that. Vendors don't care what the customer wants. They create what want and disregard the customer. arguments like nobody wants that (despite numerous requests for said item) or I don't make enough to live on so I don't have to pay attention to the customer's needs/wants, (forgetting that if they make what we want, we'll buy it and they'll make even more.)

Now, there are some really nice, great vendors out there who do listen to the customers. They bend over backward to help you and make sure they give you what you want. Unfortunately, they seem to be few and far between and the ones who don't care about their customers drown them out.

EportsCreations posted at 8:30AM Thu, 25 January 2018 - #4322990

Hi Male_M3dia,

I as a customer just wish one could be picked and settled on and maybe be taken on to the next level. I really do not care what model it is, I would just like it to be good modern one.

This depends on customer demand though. And from all the 3rd party poser releases where there was no customer demand, a lot of those vendors your post was aimed at lost money. I'm stressing that this isn't the attitude you take with them, they're trying to pay their bills like everyone else. Their bills don't magically don't get paid so they can do whatever they want. If something falls flat, it's not the vendors you should take the frustration out on.. it's other customers that didn't buy into it.

I am sorry if I have come across to strong. I am not trying to punish anyone, that was not my point. My only point is we have no new (supported) Poser models. And it has being years and many have been made in that time. What is so hard about it? Daz could even do one. That would be even better. That in it self makes you think! Why haven't they, they have the resources and it would be a money pit for them. In truth, it makes no sense from a marketing point.

This discussion is a dead horse within itself. However DAZ gave SM a list of things they need to make it work and it hasn't been done. That's the gist of it. They have products to make and no time for the finger pointing that's gone on for years. So you've bought a product from SM, they're the ones that need to solve it, not DAZ. Let's not have the usual DAZ/Poser fight, it's irrelevant to this discussion.

RedPhantom posted at 8:39AM Thu, 25 January 2018 - #4323003

Eportscreations, you can't tell vendors that. Vendors don't care what the customer wants. They create what want and disregard the customer. arguments like nobody wants that (despite numerous requests for said item) or I don't make enough to live on so I don't have to pay attention to the customer's needs/wants, (forgetting that if they make what we want, we'll buy it and they'll make even more.)

Now, there are some really nice, great vendors out there who do listen to the customers. They bend over backward to help you and make sure they give you what you want. Unfortunately, they seem to be few and far between and the ones who don't care about their customers drown them out.

Here's that attitude that draws so many vendors in ;)

The issue is a matter of entitlement. It's rife in this post. Vendors sell things to customers. Customers only buy what they want, and what the majority buys may not be what one person buys, and then the frustration is taken out on vendors. They're not to blame. They're supplying needs, not just minority that wants something different. That's how the market works. Another issue is the lack of respect for vendors in this community. Every figure release has been the same formula... someone builds a figure with absolutely no input from the vendors they want creating products. They throw the figure in the market to the vendors as afterthought (with any flaws or bottlenecks that would hamper their workflow) with the attitude, "Here, now go make stuff for it".. If someone did that to you and you already had things on your plate, what would be your reaction?

Again, if a figure is untested you need to bring your vendors in and make sure it's something they can work with; treat them badly and they don't have to lift a finger to help, no matter how it may save something. You're asking them to risk something for something they know will make their rent. Be respectful of what they do.

That's exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Ignoring people. I didn't say one person requested it. I said many people did, and they did it repeatedly. It stands to reason that if there are several requests, there is a demand for it.

As for no input, it doesn't matter if there is or not. Both Hivewire and Ero were up front with what they were doing. They posted in forums and responded to comments. I know Ero has been bending over backward to work with vendors and make the figure as easy to work with as possible. I've been following the threads and have seen him ask the readers if they would prefer x or y. After receiving input, he made his decision and let people know and backed it up with reasoning. But it seems some vendors (and users) ignore everything said about a figure until the figure is released and then after the time for input is over, they choose to whine. And when all you see in the forums is the whining, of course people are going to be hesitant to get the figure, no matter how good it is.

RedPhantom posted at 10:36AM Thu, 25 January 2018 - #4323012

That's exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Ignoring people. I didn't say one person requested it. I said many people did, and they did it repeatedly. It stands to reason that if there are several requests, there is a demand for it.

one person was a generic term for a minority of people. If you've been a vendor for any time you don't go by what people say in forums, you go by actual sales numbers. Again, you're asking someone to risk the money they earn on the hope there's enough people willing to buy an item that hasn't proven its place in the market. That deserves some respect, not entitlement. There's been countless instances of people clamoring for something in forums saying that's demand then that only translates to 10-15 sales and vendors are left scrambling to figure out how they're going to eat for the month. It is what it is.

As for no input, it doesn't matter if there is or not. Both Hivewire and Ero were up front with what they were doing. They posted in forums and responded to comments. I know Ero has been bending over backward to work with vendors and make the figure as easy to work with as possible. I've been following the threads and have seen him ask the readers if they would prefer x or y. After receiving input, he made his decision and let people know and backed it up with reasoning. But it seems some vendors (and users) ignore everything said about a figure until the figure is released and then after the time for input is over, they choose to whine. And when all you see in the forums is the whining, of course people are going to be hesitant to get the figure, no matter how good it is.

Since you aren't a vendor you absolutely don't know what was said behind closed doors. Let's not speculate. I'm not going to go into that convo either because I wasn't there. Whether it was a misunderstanding or intentional, the end result is the same. It's going to have an effect on what a vendor makes. If rendo was expecting a dual release and they only got a demo, any work they did is now a loss as well. I know regular customers that just want content won't understand that. The rent is the ONLY thing important to a vendor, not some altruistic goal. A customer can be choosy with what they do, because they're not gambling with their work check. Vendors have to be choosy with what they make because it absolutely affects their income. Sometimes the customer and vendor goals are the same, sometimes they're not. But both sides have to understand how the market works, because the market is going to do what it's going to do.

Boy! It seems I stepped on a hornets nest.

I get the point, I have heard all this before. It is a big mess and no one wants (the party's that could make it go right) to work together to sort it out, or invest in it. Yes, I was barking up the wrong tree and I am sorry if I have offended any content creators.

And now that I am looking at the whole picture and the powers that be, it is not going to happen (A new supported stand-alone model is a dream in an old Poser users eyes.) Poser will die and life and history will move on.

I can live with it. I get the whole picture now. (I don't have time for apathy.) I am done with this (old) subject. It is time to move on to a fully supported product. Thanks Male M3dia for your input.

This subject is closed! No point in beating a dead horse!

Perhaps many people requested something, but it takes many many many many more for a vendor to pay their rent. That is only possible with DAZ figures, and even there it is bare minimum. For many of us this is a full time job, and no one Is going to risk not paying their rent because there are 20 or 30 users that want something. Being a content maker isn't a job that creates a lot of extra money, that leaves no room for supporting smaller markets. Lot of vendors are barely making a minimum wage, So it is not the matter of don't be greedy it's the matter of survival.

Block of customers who insist on things have a very skewed perception of how much a vendor is able to do. It's all about customer is always right and a corollary to it is I don't care if your house goes into foreclosure as long as I get what I want for my hobby.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but this is The reality we are all dealing with in this business. Community is just a marketing front, in reality this is a business.

here is a simple math word problem... It takes a month of roughly 10 hour days to create a mid sized clothing set. (let's say 220 hours) minimum wage where I live is $10.75 an hour. multiply that with 220 hours, you get $2365 (by the way, making a minimum wage does not pay my bills, I need to generate twice that at least.) to get $2365, you have to give a brokerage $2365 as well, so you have to sell $4730 worth of product. if an average mid sized set sells for $12.00 (after a 30% discount and cupons), you have to sell about 400 (394) pieces (in two seeks intro period) to make minimum wage.

When you have customers asking for a product, only about a third of forum people actually go and buy a product they asked for (lot of them find a reason why it is not exactly what they wanted). Vendors know this we get to see who is buying what and how much, in our sales reports.

So, in order for a vendor to make a risk of supporting a new figure, they would have to see about 1500 people asking for something, very loudly.

Now the reality of product sales... I just said that it would take about 400 sales to make certain numbers. Most "top sellers" at DAZ or at Rendo make about 100-200 sales during the intro period of a single product. For the rest they count on the rest of the year and a back catalog to bolster the sales. With a new figure, you have no reasonable way to believe this will happen, and no back catalog of product for that figure to pick up the gap.

If a vendor fails, and has to quit making content because they had to get a different job to make ends meet, you lost a vendor... they go out of business (end result to a customer is, they still don't get what they want.

Now if a vendor showed up and said, I don't care about your bills or well being, you are not being very nice not buying my content, the way customers talk about vendors frequently... the world in forums as we know it would pretty much end....

Customer is not always right, if customer demands put business survival at risk, they are not a customer that can be accommodated. In marketing speak it means "They are not your target market, cut your losses and go elsewhere." "Customer is always right" is a marketing technique, where a business will accommodate small requests, even those that seem unreasonable on the surface, because the effect on the long run is increased business that offsets the cost of occasionally go out of your way.

With trying to support a new figure with clothing and content, to start with, what is asked of a vendor is not a small favor, it is asking him to put several months of income at risk. It is a lot different magnitude than asking Nordstroms to return a $300 pair of boots no questions asked. $300 for nordstroms is probably 0.00001% of their value. To put that in Rendo or DAZ vendor dollars, that would be like asking for ONE dollar discount from a vendor, on one product. Sure, just about anyon would accomodate that. because it doesn't cost a lot and it builds good will.

If you showed up at nordstroms, and asked for several milion dollars, and made a racket in their store because they are not going to offer it, you would most likely be escorted out by security guards or cops.

Lot of customers, who seem to know just about everything about this business, and tend to be extremely eager to tell you all about it, routinely have an extremely skewed perception about the financial reality of the business. Of course, anyone that mentions that gets written off as a greedy SOB vendor who hates their customers.

And this is why we can't have nice things in Poser..

What's the point of even TRYING to create new things when vendors have already decided they won't support anything that doesn't have a DAZ logo?

Hi BadKittehCo,

I don't know if you read the full thread. But I did apologize to content makers for barking up the wrong tree. I was out of line and I somewhat, do know what content makers have to go through to make ends meet. I also understand now that the subject is out of the users and the content makers power. One just needs to step back and look at the whole situation. The market share is held by the company that produces the best up to date stand-alone model. The bottom line: no model, no market, the model is the key to the success of winning in this area of the art market. And we all know who owns that market share. As I said above, I can live with that and I can move on with the models that are poplar and on hand right now.

Also, as said before, I am done on this subject. I want to create, not be stuck in the business and politics of the company's that create the models. After all, this is my hobby that I do for my own pleasure. And a lot of that pleasure comes from content makers, so please keep up the fine work. And lets leave the models to the company's and the few brave souls that step into that realm.

That's it. I have said all I can say on this subject. Lets move on to better creative things.

DreaminGirl posted at 9:27PM Thu, 25 January 2018 - #4323054

And this is why we can't have nice things in Poser..

What's the point of even TRYING to create new things when vendors have already decided they won't support anything that doesn't have a DAZ logo?

Again, that's not what's being said and that's not the issue is. Let's not be so entitled that we're not paying attention to what vendors are saying. Vendors have bills to pay and you're asking a vendor to risk their monthly rent on something that may not pan out. They don't have the luxury of "trying new things".. this is where the figure maker or company has to work with the vendors as they develop the figure to ease their fears and help with the workflow to make the content, not just release a figure and treat vendors as an afterthought and customers not caring if the vendors can actually afford to make the item and if they can't, they treat them as villains. Keep in mind some of these vendors have stuck their neck out for previous 3rd party releases and paid the price with low sales. While customers' lives went on after a bad release, it was the vendors that ended up suffering. But this situation was derived from something that happened behind the scenes that we're not privy to, and whether it was intentional or not, the perception that vendors or a store is being slighted and customers are quick to treat vendors that don't fall in line as troublemakers. This needs to be worked on so that you can get the content customers want.

Think about it this way. Whatever your job is, we will assume that you enjoy it for the most part, you make $xxxx at it. Someone comes along and says "You should go work at this company, you will make $xx." Would you do it? Same job, same amount of hours. just less money. This would go for any job out there, be it doctor, lawyer, grocer, tailor or waiter. I am betting you would say no. This isn't just fun money for a lot of people, this is their living. Those people that have other money sources might be more willing to do a job for $xx or even $x to test but it probably will be a one time thing, unless it does well.

It is also a case of winning people over with goodwill rather than complaints. Just a few thoughts from someone that has been around for a long time, on both sides of the market.

I'm not sure I understand the differences here, but my 2 cents worth ... I do short animations in Carrara, and also use Poser, Vue, Particle Illusion, plus music, sound effects, etc. in other programs. I prefer Carrara format products, and there are a few vendors who do great ones (TangoAlpha at DAZ, e.g.). But I typically buy Poser format products because Carrara loads them seamlessly, and there are many new Poser format products coming out regularly, especially here at Renderosity (Coflek-Gnorg, Cybertenko, DryJack, and many others) In Vue, I stick to Vue format because there are some amazing products available. So I don't buy DAZ Studio format products, since I've had problems using them in Carrara. Others seem to have found workarounds ... But I don't begrudge folks using DAZ Studio and DUF formats, more power to them. I just have little incentive to switch horses, mostly due to an embarrassingly large collection of products usable in Carrara, Poser and Vue. And I'm sure the vendors know more about their business than I do, so more power to them, also.

What DAZ Studio has and Poser doesn't at this point is an ecosystem. It isn't that I think the DAZ figures are better than the ones Ero or Sixus1, or Hivewire have made, it's that DAZ has built an environment where people give me the tools to reuse what I already have. I can move poses from V4 up to V8. I can share a lot of the skins and morphs. And darned near all the clothes. The base character in the Genesis 1,2,3,8 series can be modified in all sorts of ways. And these are all things that the figures being built for Poser have to compete with.

I really think the problem isn't the vendors, or the respective platforms, the problem is the lack of direction at Smith Micro. They need to build an ecosystem. To date, they have been focused on selling a Program. The two aren't the same thing.

diogenese19348 posted at 3:11PM Mon, 29 January 2018 - #4323297

What DAZ Studio has and Poser doesn't at this point is an ecosystem. It isn't that I think the DAZ figures are better than the ones Ero or Sixus1, or Hivewire have made, it's that DAZ has built an environment where people give me the tools to reuse what I already have. I can move poses from V4 up to V8. I can share a lot of the skins and morphs. And darned near all the clothes. The base character in the Genesis 1,2,3,8 series can be modified in all sorts of ways. And these are all things that the figures being built for Poser have to compete with.

I really think the problem isn't the vendors, or the respective platforms, the problem is the lack of direction at Smith Micro. They need to build an ecosystem. To date, they have been focused on selling a Program. The two aren't the same thing.

I agree about the lack of direction, but not so much how you've explained the ecosystem.

All the tools and methods used to create and manipulate content comes from DAZ3D working with the vendors to find out what they need to make content for customers. And that direction is how people come on board and can export and import the content and do things with it without too much hand coding or scripting. Generally what is released is made to help customers and vendors use content more efficiently.. like autofit or automorph generation. That finding out what vendors and customers need is that ecosystem that's missing with Poser. Unfortunately, in the poser realm vendors making content are treated as afterthoughts, dumping figures into the market that have no input from vendors or considers how they work. Any comment or concerns from vendors seem to be instantly dismissed by SM or customers.. I've heard that from former vendors at RDNA and elsewhere where it seems like the message to vendors is forget about your ethics and conscience, we need clothes for figures. That's not really going to entice them to make the content you want and if you want to keep your vendors happy, you have to start listening to them rather than talking at them.

I think we are pretty much saying the same thing, I was just commenting on the end result as a customer, and you are talking about the mechanics of making that happen as a vendor. I do think it comes down to the corporate point of view of exactly what the company is trying to sell. DAZ isn't trying to sell a program so much as build the ecosystem to use it, and make their money from working with others to produce and sell content. Smith Micro is trying to sell as many units of Poser as they can, and aren't particularly interested in making money from content.

It's kind of short sighted, there are very few people who want to take the time and trouble to make their own content. Most of us are quite comfortable plunking down money for content and spend our time making pictures leaving content creation to those that are better and faster at it than we will ever be. The end result of Smith Micro's vision is that fewer and fewer new people take up their software which makes a smaller and smaller pool of prospective sales for vendors. Most of the people clamoring for Poser content have been using Poser a very long time.

Which brings us to the present situation I guess. But let's say someone comes up with a new stand-alone human figure for DAZ rather than Poser. Does anybody seriously think it would fair any better? Remember Dawn and Dusk had DAZ versions too. It isn't that there aren't any new human figures for Poser. The problem is Poser neither came up with a system of working with vendors to create an ecosystem where figures are extendable. Everything, no matter how good, dies from lack of community support. And that is what Smith-Micro needs to deal with, not a new feature list for their program if they want to reverse the decline.

Its not like, customer demands and vendors supply. Both "sides" have both, supply and demand. Customer demands the product and supplys the money. Vendor supplys the product and demands the money. When both "sides" get their supply and demand fulfilled, all is rosy and peachy. When they dont...customer doesnt get the product and keeps the money. Vendor supplys the product and doesnt get the money. Which for customer means waste (as in "spending for nothing") of time, effort and money on demand. On the other hand, for vendor it means waste of time, effort and money on supply. Thing is, demand is a lot cheaper to produce than the supply. So loss (or potential to lose) is a lot higher for vendors than for customers. Hence the vendor tendency to reduce potential for loses with certain practices. Like in this case, to supply the products for established or well known figure, rather than new or not well known one.