I seem to recall similar warring a few years back was one of the reasons that Ero took this project over to CGBytes away from the forums here in the first place. Might not be worth the time to fire up the air popper.

I must say, I respect both people who started this unfortunate debate. Having followed the development of P.E. I was aware of Ero's intention from a ways back ... it has been in the Promo images and since Ero isn't a trained businessman there is room for misunderstandings and unintended misinformation that is shared. Please accept that no malice or impropriety was intended and allow us all to enjoy the wonderful products that you both offer. I'm hoping to eventually see a V4 to P.E. texture transfer from Blacksmith3d. We are a community ... let us remain mutually supportive.

The other way to look at it is the base figure is free, it just does not have any extras and the $30 buys you all the morphs and other things you have to buy with any other figure. So you do have a free figure.

Blackhearted posted at 2:47AM Fri, 26 January 2018 - #4322894

I take issue with all this "I've sacrificed years of my life to create this, my gift to the Poser community" and "we need to get everyone working together on this otherwise DAZ will win the war" bullshit in order to take advantage of support from staff and developers and then at the end it turns out to be just another run of the mill offsite 3rd party figure cash grab. Which would have been totally fine if that was how it was presented from the start, but then of course a fraction of the developers and testers and vendors wouldn't have jumped on board.

Poser needs a high quality free (possibly even open source) base figure to get it out of it's current stagnant situation. I would devote a lot of my time to such a project, and so would many other vendors and Poser stores. This shared enthusiasm to provide a remedy to the Poser figure situation is what was very cleverly manipulated in a marketing ruse to get support from stores and vendors who would have otherwise given it a wide berth.

I don't know what Ero told you before releasing, so I cannot comment on that. For my part, I've never expected PE to be free. From what I can say up to now about it is that it's a figure with many interesting features. From what I've seen so far (I have bought it, just did not have quite enough time to get comfortable with it) the features work- Ero obviously put a lot of work and thought into this figure. PE works for me, I don't think it's expensive for what's included.

From my point of view, and as a guy who bought most of the stuff you've offered, starting with Kii and the first GND set I would prefer it if you would keep this kind of stuff out of the forum. I get that you are angry about Ero, you expected Project E to be free or here at Rendo or something.

I don't think that a good, new figure need to be free. V4 wasn't free when she started her run. Pauline and Antonia are both free, both figures aren't very popular amongst vendors. AmbientShade got that right.

If you have problems with Ero's "I've sacrificed years of my life.. " stuff, you simply come from a different culture, IMHO. No idea if he lied to you or if both of you just had a misunderstanding. I hope you get over it, because PE is, in my very humble opinion, the best Poser figure I've seen so far. But People won't use it if the vendors don't support it. I get that the customer base isn't that great yet, but that may change. It may change if this figure is supported by the vendors. IMHO it's worth it.

I like PE, I want to see stuff for it. I will buy stuff for it. I don't think PE is expensive. but I also don't think that it would hurt to make the demo a bit more usable for people with small Money. Also, offering the figure here would probably make it more popular. Just saying, Ero. IMHO the ProjectE should be on Rendo and CP as well. Also IMHO.

Hi bantha,

This has nothing to do with me. I was on the beta, I looked over the figure and decided I'd wait until I was sure the mesh/rigging/uvs were finalized -- I planned on starting on a morph pack for it to be ready when it was released. The only reason I haven't is because there were still changes being made around Christmas, so I moved on to other projects while I waited for everything to be 100% finalized. This is totally normal and wouldn't ever upset me in the slightest, it's just the way projects work sometimes.

My issue is with how he's conned stores and vendors for support and to take advantage of their staff, resources and marketing with the "we all have to work together on this or we're going to lose the Daz war" pitch, alluded to joint releases and made promises that a fully functional base figure will always be available for free (I specifically asked him to clarify this in the private PE forum that Renderosity staff set up for him). Meanwhile he's had an exclusivity agreement with CGBytes right from the start, and he's admitted that the demo figure he is releasing is intended to funnel traffic from Renderosity to CGBytes.

So again let me clarify: I have no problem with people making profit. I have no problem with PE, I'm happy every time something new is released for Poser. I do have a problem with the lack of ethics.

Blackhearted posted at 3:29PM Fri, 26 January 2018 - #4323102

Hi bantha,

This has nothing to do with me. I was on the beta, I looked over the figure and decided I'd wait until I was sure the mesh/rigging/uvs were finalized -- I planned on starting on a morph pack for it to be ready when it was released. The only reason I haven't is because there were still changes being made around Christmas, so I moved on to other projects while I waited for everything to be 100% finalized. This is totally normal and wouldn't ever upset me in the slightest, it's just the way projects work sometimes.

My issue is with how he's conned stores and vendors for support and to take advantage of their staff, resources and marketing with the "we all have to work together on this or we're going to lose the Daz war" pitch, alluded to joint releases and made promises that a fully functional base figure will always be available for free (I specifically asked him to clarify this in the private PE forum that Renderosity staff set up for him). Meanwhile he's had an exclusivity agreement with CGBytes right from the start, and he's admitted that the demo figure he is releasing is intended to funnel traffic from Renderosity to CGBytes.

So again let me clarify: I have no problem with people making profit. I have no problem with PE, I'm happy every time something new is released for Poser. I do have a problem with the lack of ethics.

When you are in a hole, stop digging......

You aren't doing your brand or storefront any favors.

Blackhearted, I realize this is how you see the situation, which is your right. But the way you have phrased the last post ... and the verbiage you are using can be seen as a personal attack by some and that is against the TOS. I know this is frustrating. But as has been said, the disagreement is best dealt with privately. This way we can move on with our products and our forums in a constructive manner.

" But the way you have phrased the last post ... and the verbiage you are using can be seen as a personal attack by some" ...?

that was at cronies. a few posts back...

who's brought the sodas?

Which reminds me that Flame Painter 3 is for sale

Flame away!

Boni posted at 12:46AM Sat, 27 January 2018 - #4323112

Blackhearted, I realize this is how you see the situation, which is your right. But the way you have phrased the last post ... and the verbiage you are using can be seen as a personal attack by some and that is against the TOS. I know this is frustrating. But as has been said, the disagreement is best dealt with privately. This way we can move on with our products and our forums in a constructive manner.

Respectfully disagree.

Sure, it's not great to see people fighting on the forum and as far as the TOS goes, I support that but...

If Blackhearted is correct, it needs addressing and, out in the open is, I believe, in the best interests of all concerned.

I wasn't party to any discussions or agreements regarding PE, so I have no idea what the intent was. I don't recall any statements from anyone regarding where, when and how the product would be released but that's not to say they didn't happen, nor that they did. I'd like to know, however, in order to make an informed decision.

For the record, I have nothing against either party involved. I like the figure and admire the amount of care and attention given to it; I've said positive things in many threads. I also have a lot of time for Blackhearted; I've bought a lot of his stuff over the years and he's always been fine with me in any contact we've had.

I'd like to know what's what, that's all.

I wanted to write something snarky here, but I suddenly realized that there's just no satisfying some people, no matter what I'd say. My mind just doesn't bend that way.

So: Ero, thanks for your hard work. Thanks for releasing a full figure that utilizes all of your experience in Poser. Thanks for releasing it for a measly $30. Thanks for getting some vendor content creators excited again about a Poser figure.

Signed,

A "Crony"

Personally, Id like to applaud Blackhearted, for defending an ethical standpoint. For it is far too rare in this biz. I appreciate his honesty, and even his bluntness. And if anyone chooses to avoid his amazing products based on all that, they are quite frankly, dumb.

I honestly have no dog in the fight, I am merely a spectator on the topic. But had I been more involved, I might have felt misled. I'm also really surprised renderosity would allow such filtering to a competitive website... that in and of itself seems wrong to me. I think its quite magnanimous of them to allow it.

And can I just say... all this war on daz stuff is silly nonsense. The only people dividing the community, are the ones who maintain this position. We are all in this for the same reason: Coz we love 3D. Lets keep it about that love, and less about versus.

IgnisSerpentus posted at 6:04AM Sat, 27 January 2018 - #4323123

Personally, Id like to applaud Blackhearted, for defending an ethical standpoint. For it is far too rare in this biz. I appreciate his honesty, and even his bluntness. And if anyone chooses to avoid his amazing products based on all that, they are quite frankly, dumb.

I honestly have no dog in the fight, I am merely a spectator on the topic. But had I been more involved, I might have felt misled. I'm also really surprised renderosity would allow such filtering to a competitive website... that in and of itself seems wrong to me. I think its quite magnanimous of them to allow it.

And can I just say... all this war on daz stuff is silly nonsense. The only people dividing the community, are the ones who maintain this position. We are all in this for the same reason: Coz we love 3D. Lets keep it about that love, and less about versus.

Personal attacks in a public forum are against TOS at Renderosity.

Apart from that it is a very one side view of what happened. There is a free base figure on both Rendo and CGB, The simultaneous release of the final figure on both Rendo and CGB might still happen,

I have no problem Blackhearted expressing his concerns about erogenesis business ethics, but I do have a problem with him repeating this again and again without taking this to email or PM.

You see it as repeating it again and again. I see it as clarifying and stating the same position in defense against other people who have attacked him and his POV.

Perspective is a funneh thing.

wimvdb posted at 3:22AM Sat, 27 January 2018 - #4323129

Personal attacks in a public forum are against TOS at Renderosity.

Apart from that it is a very one side view of what happened. There is a free base figure on both Rendo and CGB, The simultaneous release of the final figure on both Rendo and CGB might still happen,

I have no problem Blackhearted expressing his concerns about erogenesis business ethics, but I do have a problem with him repeating this again and again without taking this to email or PM.

"I have a problem with your ethics" is not a personal attack. Meanwhile we're on the third page of personal attacks against me.

There are only two things that get me riled up after spending nearly two decades in this community. One of them is copyright infringements, the other is unethical behavior. And I'm willing to take a stand on either of them, alone if necessary: if someone calls my behavior into question I can answer it myself instead of contacting the long list of people I roped into this product to come defend my actions. Several of the people slinging insults at me in this thread have a direct financial motive since they're involved in the project or developing content for PE.

Promises and other stuff aside, selling PE just at one store hurts PE. I doubt that it really helps the store. I bought PE there and was gone seconds later.

There are a lot of people who don't post at the forums, proably don't read much here and won't even see that a new figure is out. If you cannot reach this people, they won't buy stuff for PE, and the market share will stay at the Antonia level - nearly none. So releasing PE just at CGbytes will send them a couple of bucks for selling them, but from my pont of view it is likely that a lot of potential customers just won't see PE. They won't buy it.

@Blackhearted, I understand your problems with Ero. Still, other people may just like the product and either don't know the facts ( I did not from your first post ) or do not care where PE is sold. Calling them cronies does not nessesarily strengthen your point.

So, if you question Ero's ethics, what should be the consequences? Should we ignore PE, even if it's a great figure? Should we praise it, but call Ero names? (This one is probably against the TOS, though)

@Ero, PE doesn't have much stuff for it right now. In my opinion, as a former Rendo mod who had to check the galleries and look at a lot of picures there,, I think that there are lot of "Make Art Button" renders. There are people who click a figure, click an outfit, click a Pose, a Light and a Background. Your description on how clothes should be converted is very good, IMHO, but I doubt that they will try it. You need those people to buy PE if you want PE to become a popular figure. That won't happen if you cannot convince the content creators to support it. Just saying. Others may thing the same thing as BH, but won't say it loudly in the forum. PE is now out for a while and I see the beautifull stuff that Karanta has done. Sadly, her clothes need the Cloth room, so they are too complicated to use for a lot of people. So if there is a problem with any content creator, including Blackhearted, try to fix it. Just my opinion.

We don't need another niche figure with minimal support. It seems to me that CGbytes cannot provide it, way to few new releases. Zero new stuff for PE there. If you really want to support them, sell the figure everywhere and send them a share. Just my opinion.

And can I just say... all this war on daz stuff is silly nonsense.

Thank you sir!! Trying to promote your product based on fomenting peoples hatred of competing companies products has not proven to be an effective strategy in the long run.

Apple Inc. did not become more valuable than Exxon mobile by making Childish& Emotional rallying cries of "War" against Microsoft or even Samsung ,despite to silly lawsuit over "round cornered Smart phone glass". They did so creating innovative and user friendly tech products and yes.. Slick somewhat youth oriented & clever marketing.

Your description on how clothes should be converted is very good, IMHO, but I doubt that they will try it.

Indeed if people dont try it it is more of a Poser application shortcoming than the PE figure itself

A figure rig can only be as easy to use as the application ,upon which it depends, enables ease of use. Even Ero himself pubicly Blamed Poser ,here in this forum, for all of the delays and near cancellation of this project.

All the bitchiness here in this thread is rather disappointing, frankly. :( Lets not get lost in disagreements over so-called "ethics". Let's concentrate on the FIGURE herself - how she performs. Like other 3rd party Poser figures, she'll survive only if other modellers produce stuff for her. Who remembers Apollo Maximus these days? It's early days yet for PE, I'm hoping she catches on.

Thank you freyfaxi62 ...

stop fighting, make content - damit !!! ;-)

book mark

-Timberwolf- posted at 12:54PM Mon, 29 January 2018 - #4323266

stop fighting, make content - damit !!! ;-)

Alex for Project Evolution

Available here in the free stuff, Thanks for providing this.

At the end of the day the kids don't care why there parents got divorced they just know there world got turn apart.

every one needs to kiss n make up.

Betrayed

think greater good

Alex is such a beauty!! Thank you so much for creating this character for PE! She is gorgeous!!!

digitell posted at 6:15AM Tue, 30 January 2018 - #4323333

Alex is such a beauty!! Thank you so much for creating this character for PE! She is gorgeous!!!

Thank you! With my basics worked out, when I have time I’ll create some more characters.

Wonderful! We will look forward to seeing more characters!

Umm, so does this mean no blackhearted morphs for project E?

I don't know if an open source figure will work. The problem with open source is the license (depending on which is used) could be an issue. I did suggest Smith Micro release a complete and fully open source figure in a few threads here and elsewhere but there's no guarantee that such a figure would catch on or be supported.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_free_and_open-source_software_licenses

Also there are some open source figures already that have had almost no development in the poser community and it's been going on for a very, very long time.

http://www.makehuman.org/

I look forward to supporting figures and generally try to support them if I can scrape up the spare funds. As I've said before even of Daz products, I'd gladly pay for them if there was a poser version that didn't rely on DSON, and in some cases have taken it to myself to purchase and convert them for my own personal use in artwork.

Kazam561 posted at 6:19PM Mon, 05 February 2018 - #4323831

I don't know if an open source figure will work. The problem with open source is the license (depending on which is used) could be an issue. I did suggest Smith Micro release a complete and fully open source figure in a few threads here and elsewhere but there's no guarantee that such a figure would catch on or be supported.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_free_and_open-source_software_licenses

Also there are some open source figures already that have had almost no development in the poser community and it's been going on for a very, very long time.

http://www.makehuman.org/

I look forward to supporting figures and generally try to support them if I can scrape up the spare funds. As I've said before even of Daz products, I'd gladly pay for them if there was a poser version that didn't rely on DSON, and in some cases have taken it to myself to purchase and convert them for my own personal use in artwork.

,zBrush comes with a few ,LW n C4D has some also.is make human open source ? it's easy to model characters some app's easier then others. anyway it's way way easier to rig n all your characters in app's like Blender ,LW, C4D then Poser or DAZ. So I can make a character in few days in a app that I have killer dynamics partials ect ect n a real time render engine. So if we have these skills why would we work on a open source DAZ Poser character that we don't need ? to wait 3 days on a render or have some dude that won't take the time to learn the skills to cry we didn't make her muscles lines the way the dude wanted ? no body's going to work for free just to get abused.

Alex is a lovely!! RobZhena, you have done a great job, thank you!!! And thanks for sharing so freely, what a treat!!

RorrKonn posted at 9:03AM Tue, 06 February 2018 - #4323843

Kazam561 posted at 6:19PM Mon, 05 February 2018 - #4323831

I look forward to supporting figures and generally try to support them if I can scrape up the spare funds. As I've said before even of Daz products, I'd gladly pay for them if there was a poser version that didn't rely on DSON, and in some cases have taken it to myself to purchase and convert them for my own personal use in artwork.

,zBrush comes with a few ,LW n C4D has some also.is make human open source ? it's easy to model characters some app's easier then others. anyway it's way way easier to rig n all your characters in app's like Blender ,LW, C4D then Poser or DAZ. So I can make a character in few days in a app that I have killer dynamics partials ect ect n a real time render engine. So if we have these skills why would we work on a open source DAZ Poser character that we don't need ? to wait 3 days on a render or have some dude that won't take the time to learn the skills to cry we didn't make her muscles lines the way the dude wanted ? no body's going to work for free just to get abused.

Very good points. People sometimes like to complain. Blender has seen some big strides in it's development. There are always the groups that would prefer having pre-made characters to making them (some of it is skill level, some of it is people wanting to work faster). Make Human is open source though I'd expect a possible open source character that might be better from the Unity Game engine users. There is no pleasing everyone as you said. I remember when Unity first came out and many figures were muscle bound body builders in everything. I know Daz has adapted some of it's product for Unity (not crazy at all about their Unity store design) but none of it is open source. As far as making a physically accurate figure with muscle morphs, it takes time and investments by the creators. I don't fault them for wanting some recompense for their efforts. I think an open source figure funded maybe by some sort of donation drive (similar to Patreon or kickstarter) with a team of developers (ala Blender as an example) might work.

I read the blackhearted post for the first time and was disappointed. I don't get it. Ero has never misrepresented that PE is an early (rushed for us) release and may still need work.. Whatever the personal disagreement, never flame another person on a public venue. Always settle it in private especially if there will be disagreement about your position among others "in the room". So far I have read only one negative rant. BH may have a vendor perspective that I am unaware of being an end user, but the way the issue was presented was inappropriate and "blackhearted".

Boni posted at 5:04PM Tue, 06 February 2018 - #4323865

Alex is a lovely!! RobZhena, you have done a great job, thank you!!! And thanks for sharing so freely, what a treat!!

Thank you, Boni,

RobZhena posted at 7:06PM Tue, 06 February 2018 - #4323927

Boni posted at 5:04PM Tue, 06 February 2018 - #4323865

Alex is a lovely!! RobZhena, you have done a great job, thank you!!! And thanks for sharing so freely, what a treat!!

Thank you, Boni,

At least Boni has some manners.

Killer RobZhena ,Thanks

Kazam561 : Even Hollywood can't make a realistic looken CGI character animation. never seen one on youtube either. I just don't think we have the software to make a realistic looken CGI character animation. CGI is good for metal works n cartoons.

A CGI black n white still might pass as realistic but that's about it.

PE makes me think realism might be possible but I'm good with cool.

Wow... just wow... this thread is exhibit A of why myself and many others have stepped out of this community.
Nobody can really win can they... Release a figure open source and for free with latest tech....people bitch... no support.. Re-Do a popular figure from scratch AND provide clothing transfer ... people bitch ... no support several figures get released for modest fees... still more bitching and no support. Release the most complete and up to date figure yet, chok full of morphs and skins for around the same price as a good clothing set or morph texture pack for other figures (with morphs and textures that rival those add on sets)... guess what.. still more bitching and no support... seriously, the forums all need to have an automatic reply feature where if anyone posts any complaint or concern about lack of content it automatically posts a reply saying "GO F---- YOURSELF! We, as a community, don't want new content!! we just want to bitch everything and everybody into the ground! Now STFU and go render more V4 crap!"

Good luck all!