Are we likely to get a New Poser Pro 12 or whatever? Seems Poser is being left behind in the amateur graphics market! Cheers

There have been some changes at SmithMicro ... and I assure you there is more coming soon. Poser is alive and well ... and continuing to grow!

Many thanks for your reply.I was a bit concerned that with the change of management with Poser it might have been coming to an end.I use have used Poser since version 4.Cheers

There is a devlog now at the Smith Micro Poser forum where they inform about progress. You may want to check that. The thread is locked, so it is bulletin only. There is another thread open for discussions.

What concerns me the most is newer content for Poser 2014-11. Seems that with the introduction of DS into the marketplace Poser has been left behind.

Inspired_Art posted at 5:59PM Mon, 22 October 2018 - #4338040

What concerns me the most is newer content for Poser 2014-11. Seems that with the introduction of DS into the marketplace Poser has been left behind.

It seems that way, but I think it's only because of the showcase of the art that we see at Daz. Daz3d.com has a lot of renders that look really good and I think some people forget that not everyone is creating renders like that with the software. When you look at the site, the first thing that most people probably think is "Wow. I can create stuff like that too if I use DazStudio" which isn't exact as true as it plays in the mind of new users.

Not everyone is going to incredible art, especially during the learning phase. DazStudio also is free and much of their success comes from their Content not so much the software. Don't get me wrong, their software is good, but their content carries them big time. If SmithMicro want's Poser to compete on that same level then they really have to invest in some really good 3D content of their own. I'm not saying that the Poser users don't create great 3d Content, but I am saying that users can't carry it all their own. At some point Poser will need to decide to be compatible with Daz3D creations or if they are going to invest in content of their own, like the really good stuff.

If they create a character then make sure that there's a lot of clothing available for it. Tap into various types of 3D interests and niches. Don't just give the 3D models that one can use to "play around with" before investing into something else like V4. Poser can do a lot of cool things and has a lot of flexibility. i'm still using 3rd generation figures like Aiko 3 and to be honest, I don't think Daz3d can make those look any better. I'm not saying I'm awesome with Poser, far from it, but if I can take an old figure like Aiko 3 below and get results like this, then someone much better than me should really be incredible. The best thing is that Daz Studio has already paved a path for identifying what type of content to create and that takes away a lot of the guessing. Smith Micro shouldn't try to let the products users carry the burden for creating content. Smith Micro should lead the way. Daz Originals vs Poser Originals speaks volumes.

I agree. I still use and buy a lot of things for the Michael and Victoria 4 models. I haven't exactly brought everything on my list at either Rendo or Daz, but it's a shorter list than it was before.

I would be sad to see Poser's end . But I am confident, they didn't move the dev team to Europe to do nothing with it. All this takes time. What is sure is that the next version will be a real challenge for the continuation of Poser at SmithMicro. Just in case it is wise to have one foot on Poser and the other on Daz Studio. But there's enough room for both.

@Inspired_Art, still using and purchasing V4 stuff too :)

I can imagine, that Poser will be revamped dramaticley, which I think is the best SM can do. They changed their location to Portugal, they've changed the development team. I do think, that was unavoidable. Poser needs fresh blood to survive. Poser needs some WOW-figures and some WOW-features, to end this reign of V4. Poser will be save, as soon users drop V4 and are happy to use SM figures. That means SM figures must become better.

I was at the SM website not long ago and they said they are working on Poser 11.1.1 Supposedly an update? Here is what the forum post said: "Upcoming Releases The first maintenance release to 11.1 will be 11.1.1 - While I cannot tell you when it will be ready, it's the first thing on my mind in the morning when I arrive at the office. This version is a long time in coming, and has significant fixes and improvements over 11.1 - when we do release this version (hopefully, soon!) I will post the Release Notes here so you can get a feel for what's fixed and what's different."

arrow1 posted at 10:03AM Thu, 25 October 2018 - #4337911

Many thanks for your reply.I was a bit concerned that with the change of management with Poser it might have been coming to an end.I use have used Poser since version 4.Cheers

Out of curiosity, just what do you feel Poser has been left behind in? Even if I concede that Poser should have made significant advancements by now, compared to other brands it's not like they're leaps and bounds ahead of Poser.

Out of curiosity, just what do you feel Poser has been left behind in?

Three major areas: Native base figures that look good enough to be widely embraced by

clothing & morph content creators And have uniform standards for content development for the base figures.

Sydney,Alison,Roxie Pauline, ( and their erstwhile male counter parts) Failed horribly to meet this standard.

This is not just my opinion this is what history has shown us. poser has been left behind in base figure appeal

A completely new Cloth fitting/rigging system for content vendors that allows you to model clothing for a base shape /import to poser click less than three times and you have a conformer that will Automatically follow the shapes of a figure when you change the morph dials.

Clothing content developers will never..ever return to poser or widely support exotic third party nonstandard rigs like "Project E" if rigging is any more difficult than Daz studio and IClone Character creator3

Poser is has been behind in content development and cloth rigging

Updated animation tools with a nonlinear motion clip recording system and a proper modern graph editor with cubic interpolation and readable dope sheet.

Poser has been left WAAAAYYY behind in Character animation

Have a look at this video from reallusion. No it is not free but neither is poser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hazb4e0V94

For me Poser still lacks a lot when it comes to start up lighting and many of the models are being designed for Daz and not Poser... Poser can live in the Michael 4 and Victoria 4 past as long as they want but for me, I want and use the Genesis 8 models.

wolf359 posted at 2:14PM Thu, 25 October 2018 - #4338198

Out of curiosity, just what do you feel Poser has been left behind in?

Three major areas: Native base figures that look good enough to be widely embraced by

clothing & morph content creators And have uniform standards for content development for the base figures.

Sydney,Alison,Roxie Pauline, ( and their erstwhile male counter parts) Failed horribly to meet this standard.

This is not just my opinion this is what history has shown us. poser has been left behind in base figure appeal

A completely new Cloth fitting/rigging system for content vendors that allows you to model clothing for a base shape /import to poser click less than three times and you have a conformer that will Automatically follow the shapes of a figure when you change the morph dials.

Clothing content developers will never..ever return to poser or widely support exotic third party nonstandard rigs like "Project E" if rigging is any more difficult than Daz studio and IClone Character creator3

Poser is has been behind in content development and cloth rigging

Updated animation tools with a nonlinear motion clip recording system and a proper modern graph editor with cubic interpolation and readable dope sheet.

Poser has been left WAAAAYYY behind in Character animation

Have a look at this video from reallusion. No it is not free but neither is poser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hazb4e0V94

drafter69 posted at 3:50PM Thu, 25 October 2018 - #4338208

For me Poser still lacks a lot when it comes to start up lighting and many of the models are being designed for Daz and not Poser... Poser can live in the Michael 4 and Victoria 4 past as long as they want but for me, I want and use the Genesis 8 models.

As I'm told, you can use the Gen 8 models in current Poser. And I don't know what you mean by start up lighting.

Start up Poser get rid of Andy (if he loads up) now go to Scripts/Utility/delete Lights now create your own startup lights and Then go to Edit/General Preferences/Then under the Document Tab in the Launch Behavior section make sure Launch to preferred Scene is ticked then press the Set Preferred Scene Tab.and bang no more default start up lights..should be the way you want it. Mine loads with the wooden mannequin.for sentimental reason :)

Edit to correct link in previous post https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hazb4e0V94&t

wolf359 posted at 9:57PM Thu, 25 October 2018 - #4338198

Out of curiosity, just what do you feel Poser has been left behind in?

Three major areas: Native base figures that look good enough to be widely embraced by

clothing & morph content creators And have uniform standards for content development for the base figures.

Sydney,Alison,Roxie Pauline, ( and their erstwhile male counter parts) Failed horribly to meet this standard.

This is not just my opinion this is what history has shown us. poser has been left behind in base figure appeal

A completely new Cloth fitting/rigging system for content vendors that allows you to model clothing for a base shape /import to poser click less than three times and you have a conformer that will Automatically follow the shapes of a figure when you change the morph dials.

Clothing content developers will never..ever return to poser or widely support exotic third party nonstandard rigs like "Project E" if rigging is any more difficult than Daz studio and IClone Character creator3

Poser is has been behind in content development and cloth rigging

Updated animation tools with a nonlinear motion clip recording system and a proper modern graph editor with cubic interpolation and readable dope sheet.

Poser has been left WAAAAYYY behind in Character animation

Have a look at this video from reallusion. No it is not free but neither is poser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hazb4e0V94

I have to ask because I honestly haven't followed this as closely as I probably should have. is Reallusion a suite of separate software programs that works together or is it one program that can do all of this on it's own at a cost of $600 or less?

EClark1894 posted at 9:51AM Fri, 26 October 2018 - #4338213

drafter69 posted at 3:50PM Thu, 25 October 2018 - #4338208

As I'm told, you can use the Gen 8 models in current Poser. And I don't know what you mean by start up lighting.

I'll never understand this. If you want to use genesis 8, use DAZ Studio. Project Evolution and Bella are the Figures to use for Poser, forget about the rest. PE is complicated , complex and not easy to use, but this is all because of huge work arounds. I mostley agree with wolf359 here. One more thing, that urgentley needs to be changed in future Poser releases: Stop breaking geometry into parts on figures' base meshes.

didn't we just do this conversation in general?

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2924201

ok if we want to go over it again.... tho we can save time and copy and paste over I suppose...

I have to ask because I honestly haven't followed this as closely as I >probably should have. is Reallusion a suite of separate software >programs that works together or is it one program that can do all of >this on it's own at a cost of $600 or less?

It would be easier to just look at the product line on their site because to be honest..its a bit "complicated".

However in general there are various versions of Iclone based in your need to import from other apps or export to game engine and other 3DCC apps Each comes with a basic version of the Character creator program.

But there is now a Stand alone Character creator3 program that officially supports The Daz genesis 1,2,3,8 Mike& vicky 4 and the hivewire figures ( Dawn and co.) for clothing development, will use existing Daz clothing and has the IRay render engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hazb4e0V94&t</https:>

Have a look for the pricing on all of the various options ..Not cheap but well worth it IMHO with a company that has future roadmap

https://www.reallusion.com/iclone</https:>

wolf359 posted at 7:41AM Fri, 26 October 2018 - #4338244

I have to ask because I honestly haven't followed this as closely as I >probably should have. is Reallusion a suite of separate software >programs that works together or is it one program that can do all of >this on it's own at a cost of $600 or less?

It would be easier to just look at the product line on their site because to be honest..its a bit "complicated".

However in general there are various versions of Iclone based in your need to import from other apps or export to game engine and other 3DCC apps Each comes with a basic version of the Character creator program.

But there is now a Stand alone Character creator3 program that officially supports The Daz genesis 1,2,3,8 Mike& vicky 4 and the hivewire figures ( Dawn and co.) for clothing development, will use existing Daz clothing and has the IRay render engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hazb4e0V94&t</https:>

Have a look for the pricing on all of the various options ..Not cheap but well worth it IMHO with a company that has future roadmap

https://www.reallusion.com/iclone</https:>

Well, I did look. There seems to be several different apps that work together to do several different things.

-Timberwolf- posted at 7:44AM Fri, 26 October 2018 - #4338238

EClark1894 posted at 9:51AM Fri, 26 October 2018 - #4338213

drafter69 posted at 3:50PM Thu, 25 October 2018 - #4338208

As I'm told, you can use the Gen 8 models in current Poser. And I don't know what you mean by start up lighting.

I'll never understand this. If you want to use genesis 8, use DAZ Studio. Project Evolution and Bella are the Figures to use for Poser, forget about the rest. PE is complicated , complex and not easy to use, but this is all because of huge work arounds. I mostley agree with wolf359 here. One more thing, that urgentley needs to be changed in future Poser releases: Stop breaking geometry into parts on figures' base meshes.

Will dial, Ghostship and Jura, are just three guys who constantly use Genesis in Poser renders. Honestly, I don't care what software you use. I agree with you though. The main reason I didn't migrate to DS when Genesis first came out was because it wouldn't work in Poser and because at the time DS didn't work on my Mac. I had never heard of IClone before Wolf started mentioning it in every post.

Well, I did look. There seems to be several different apps that work >together to do several different things.

Indeed to provide a different solution for a wide variety of end usage. Game content character dev

Pre-visualization for films.

animated filmmaking.

Creation of complex Character motion to be retargeted to imported figure rigs to be rendered in other programs Lightwave ,C4D,Modo,Poser,Daz studio via BVH ,BX or Alembic.

And now even NVIDIA IRay still renders of attractive ideal BMI white females from Daz & Hiveware.

This market needs more competition&options for content creators with viable alternatives to Daz & a floundering poser.

I have the Full Pipeline version that I use to create&retarget motion for my Daz genesis figures that are then exported to C4D for rendering my animated films.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjokKZX1r6I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_48wCRqC_eQ&feature=youtu.be

I have to look at this from an all around perspective. Poser has one major advantage for me that Reallusion lacks. Poser will run on my mac. Actually, that was also one of the things that kept me from cozying up to Studio at first. While the software would run on the mac, Many of the features that DAZ sold to give Studio Poser-like features at that time, like Optitex, didn't run on my mac. Studio, to my knowledge, has overcome the no running on the mac problem, but now, meh, I just don't care. Everynow and then, I'm moved enough to try and learn how something is done in DS, but otherwise, it's just taking up space on my desktop.

Indeed we all are limited to what we can financially manage

I own three computers. Two Windows PC's and a really old mac from 2008.

Those animation clips I posted ,were rendered on my mac where I have C4D, Adobe CS ,after effects ,Final Cut pro ,Realfow and an old but still useful seat of MODO401

Staying with the Mac platform for 3D/CG Character animation, in this Day and age, is a fools gambit IMHO.

When I partially migrated to a windows 7 machine , I suddenly had full access to all of the DAZ Genesis tech and windows only third party addons for DS and of course Iclone Pro.

Which at the time had just leased the Autodesk Maya human IK system for Character animation in realtime in iclone 5.5

Apple has long abandoned the 3D/CG gaming market and is now a luxury brand for the affluent consumer .

The longer you stay on the Mac OS the more your future options for migrating to new 3D character related tech and rendering will disappear.

Your choice.

wolf359 posted at 9:48AM Sat, 27 October 2018 - #4338302

Indeed we all are limited to what we can financially manage

I own three computers. Two Windows PC's and a really old mac from 2008.

Those animation clips I posted ,were rendered on my mac where I have C4D, Adobe CS ,after effects ,Final Cut pro ,Realfow and an old but still useful seat of MODO401

Staying with the Mac platform for 3D/CG Character animation, in this Day and age, is a fools gambit IMHO.

When I partially migrated to a windows 7 machine , I suddenly had full access to all of the DAZ Genesis tech and windows only third party addons for DS and of course Iclone Pro.

Which at the time had just leased the Autodesk Maya human IK system for Character animation in realtime in iclone 5.5

Apple has long abandoned the 3D/CG gaming market and is now a luxury brand for the affluent consumer .

The longer you stay on the Mac OS the more your future options for migrating to new 3D character related tech and rendering will disappear.

Your choice.

Yep, it is. But just like the people who keep foretelling of Poser's imminent demise, that hasn't happened yet either.

"But just like the people who keep foretelling of Poser's imminent demise, that hasn't happened yet either.

Software does not have to experience a total "demise" it only has to become largely supplanted within its market niche by other programs that do what it does but better with wider third party content support within its user base.

The included base figures, in the free version of Reallusion Character creator ,Already look better than Jessi,Alyson,Sydney Roxie,Pauline ever did. and the latest version of CC3 has content development tools that compete Equally with DAZ studio in terms of ease and exceed Daz studio in terms of Multiple figure support.(M4,V4,Hivewire bases)

Sure poser is not "Dead" and will never truly "Die" as long as it will run on the latest Core OS systems. But what new users or aspiring Clothing/Game dev makers, or Aspiring Character animators would choose to buy poser in this current market climate.???

On the matter of the Mac OS I was a Mac user since 1996 and worked as professional graphic designer for print for 19 years before getting into 3D /CG in my early 40 's.

No one is predicting the "demise" of the Mac platform. Apple technologies has a bigger market value than Exxon mobile from selling over priced, luxury smart phones..not workstations & laptops

However in the Area of 3D/CG, no major game development company or Hollywood FX house are using mac computers as their primary workstations because Apple Does not make Pro level CG hardware or support cutting edge graphic cards for rendering.

All of the developers in the areas of character animation, Like Reallusion, Ikinema Dont bother with Mac versions

You say you dont care now ..fine.

Remember however, it was our Macs ,and their lack of open GL support ,that locked you and Myself out of Daz studio 3.x,& genesis one in the early Days,when you at least admittedly had an interest in the figure platform.

wolf359 posted at 12:11AM Sun, 28 October 2018 - #4338318

"But just like the people who keep foretelling of Poser's imminent demise, that hasn't happened yet either.

Software does not have to experience a total "demise" it only has to become largely supplanted within its market niche by other programs that do what it does but better with wider third party content support within its user base.

The included base figures, in the free version of Reallusion Character creator ,Already look better than Jessi,Alyson,Sydney Roxie,Pauline ever did. and the latest version of CC3 has content development tools that compete Equally with DAZ studio in terms of ease and exceed Daz studio in terms of Multiple figure support.(M4,V4,Hivewire bases)

Sure poser is not "Dead" and will never truly "Die" as long as it will run on the latest Core OS systems. But what new users or aspiring Clothing/Game dev makers, or Aspiring Character animators would choose to buy poser in this current market climate.???

On the matter of the Mac OS I was a Mac user since 1996 and worked as professional graphic designer for print for 19 years before getting into 3D /CG in my early 40 's.

No one is predicting the "demise" of the Mac platform. Apple technologies has a bigger market value than Exxon mobile from selling over priced, luxury smart phones..not workstations & laptops

However in the Area of 3D/CG, no major game development company or Hollywood FX house are using mac computers as their primary workstations because Apple Does not make Pro level CG hardware or support cutting edge graphic cards for rendering.

All of the developers in the areas of character animation, Like Reallusion, Ikinema Dont bother with Mac versions

You say you dont care now ..fine.

Remember however, it was our Macs ,and their lack of open GL support ,that locked you and Myself out of Daz studio 3.x,& genesis one in the early Days,when you at least admittedly had an interest in the figure platform.

Well, like I also said, What features that were being offered with DAZ were primarily only being offered for Windows clients. That wasn't an operating system issue that was a programmer issue. The fact that Poser has always had a Windows and Mac version was what initially pulled me in in the first place. The fact that it was affordable, unlike 3DS and Lightwave at that time which I believe was in excess of $1000, well, that did it for me. As for me want to try Genesis out at first, yes, my initial compulsion was to upgrade to the next version of the figure. Just as I had done on the previous four versions. Honestly, it took me a while to get use to the idea of thinking that Genesis was a platform and not just a figure. And for me personally, I don't feel as if I've missed anything.

But, then again, that's nothing against Genesis. That's me. New and shiny doesn't hold my attention for long. I was initially hyped to jump on the PE bandwagon. That cockeyed rollout made me lose interest in it personally. Nothing wrong with the figure, mind you. I just... don't care that much any more.

BTW: Rendo removed the IClone forum here.

-Timberwolf- posted at 12:36PM Sun, 28 October 2018 - #4338345

BTW: Rendo removed the IClone forum here.

Why?

underusage.

Are they going to bring it back? Looks like reallusion is about to really take off with Character Creator 3. What happened to 1 and 2? Never heard of either.

That might just be what's needed to reinstate the iClone forum.

I was being serious when I said I had never heard of Character Creator 1 or 2. So I tried to google it. Did it used to be Mixamo?

EClark1894 posted at 4:29AM Mon, 29 October 2018 - #4338386

I was being serious when I said I had never heard of Character Creator 1 or 2. So I tried to google it. Did it used to be Mixamo?

@ EClarke. Character creators version 1-2 were free programs that began shipping with Iclone 6.2 IIRC

They were essentially Reallusions acknowledgement that the native default Iclone Avatars were quite rubbish looking by todays standard. And that depending completely on a third party(DAZ inc) for your high quality figures,without offering your own, was a fools gambit.

Character creator 3 still comes in a free"lite"version that ships with the latest version of Iclone

It has the latest Reallusion base figures where you can morph and dress them much like Poser or DS. and send your custom characters to Iclone for realtime animation&motionbuilding.

The new Standalone Character creator 3 pipeline has the NIVDIA Iray engine and native supports M4,V4,Genesis 1,2,3,8 and the Hivewire figures for import,clothing creation via an easy weight transfer system Like the Daz three mouse click rigging utility I use for my custom outfits.

and of course low poly figure decimation for games etc (As depicted in the video)

It also has FBX export so you do not have to even buy the actual Iclone or 3DXchange programs.

On the matter of the Old Iclone forum gone missing.. All will become clear quite soon.

EClark1894 posted at 4:53AM Mon, 29 October 2018 - #4338379

Are they going to bring it back? Looks like reallusion is about to really take off with Character Creator 3. What happened to 1 and 2? Never heard of either.

Probably not. There was a mass culling of little used forums about a year ago. Anything that hadn't been used in over six months got the chop. I remember looking at forums a few weeks before the cull and that forum was dead as a dodo for well over a year..

Looks like if may happen again... There's forums here that have only had admin posts in the last year or so....

wolf359 posted at 6:58AM Mon, 29 October 2018 - #4338391

EClark1894 posted at 4:29AM Mon, 29 October 2018 - #4338386

I was being serious when I said I had never heard of Character Creator 1 or 2. So I tried to google it. Did it used to be Mixamo?

@ EClarke. Character creators version 1-2 were free programs that began shipping with Iclone 6.2 IIRC

They were essentially Reallusions acknowledgement that the native default Iclone Avatars were quite rubbish looking by todays standard. And that depending completely on a third party(DAZ inc) for your high quality figures,without offering your own, was a fools gambit.

Can't honestly say I disagree with that assessment. ...to a point.

I just gave a look at the Character Creator 3 presentation video. Quite impressive !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0PbNMZqG30

While I use Daz and think the material available for it are fantastic, I do not want to see poser go out of business. That would make Daz3d Studio the only game in town fo rmost people and then they could do whatever they want and charge whatever they want... competition is good

drafter69 posted at 2:14PM Wed, 31 October 2018 - #4338607

While I use Daz and think the material available for it are fantastic, I do not want to see poser go out of business. That would make Daz3d Studio the only game in town fo rmost people and then they could do whatever they want and charge whatever they want... competition is good

Well, I probably wouldn't move to Studio anyway. I'd probably move to Blender fulltime.

" That would make Daz3d Studio the only game in town for most >people and then they could do whatever they want and charge >whatever they want... "

Daz had better keep Daz studio free.. If SM stops producing Poser, Daz Studio would definitetly NOT be the "only game in town"

for Figure posing and IRray rendering of V4,M4 ,Hivewire&Genesis 1,2,3,8.

so who could replace Poser as a competitor to Daz3d Studio????

EClark1894 posted at 2:22PM Thu, 01 November 2018 - #4338189

Out of curiosity, just what do you feel Poser has been left behind in? Even if I concede that Poser should have made significant advancements by now, compared to other brands it's not like they're leaps and bounds ahead of Poser.

Without saying who the other brands are, this is hard to dispute. It's true, Poser is not that far behind its main rival, D|S. D|S' main strength is that it works better with the figures people seem to want to use, and I often think that if Genesis magically began working in Poser many users would declare all is finally right with the world. I've fallen into the trap before of listing numerous things where Poser is lacking only to be told that those are high-end features I should not expect in a hobbyist program, and that I should only compare Poser to a few programs it directly competes with. For the longest time, that was pretty much just D|S. I think it's reasonable to say that Poser is also in competition with iClone, and if not then certainly Reallusion's Character Creator 3 is in direct competition with Poser (they pretty much say so in their forums). These discussions are almost impossible because the people who are typically the most content with Poser are the same ones Poser development has long been most focused on. I want to list things where Poser has totally missed the bus, but I know the apologies for most of them. So heck, I'll just try shooting them all down myself. Poser has an archaic viewport that doesn't represent either of its own CPU based renderers' materials correctly. It's bad enough that the preview doesn't support displacements (steep parallax mapping was introduced in 2005 and variations on this are now widely used), decent reflections, proper soft shadows, but it also fails to represent final output. iClone's viewport depicts PBR materials pretty much as they look in Marmoset or any other implementation, while also rivaling the fidelity of its Indigo and (soon) iRay output. IClone's PBR viewport isn't an exact match for its plug-in CPU renderers, but it's not a world apart, either. With Poser's viewport, Firefly and Cycles interpreting the same materials so differently, it would be interesting to see how Poser's viewport could be modernized without breaking all existing materials. I assume it would have to use the Cycles materials which are at least physically-based if not what would normally be meant by "PBR". But there's no good reason SM should waste resources improving the preview when its not meant for final output. Adding something like Eevee would take dozens of people many years to implement within Poser and would only benefit the small number of users who do animation, not the majority of Poser users who make high-res stills.
In the area of character creation, Manuel Bastioni Laboratory for blender offers a number of innovative tools that would not be unwelcome to Poser users. Among them are things like "Skin editor that automatically creates the displacement maps according to the character meta parameters (muscle, tone and age values)", "Fuzzy logic algorithm for interpolation permits to mix the parameters in real-time.", "Automatic generation of random characters:with special constrains, to allow the possibility to keep constant the characters heritage.", and "Algorithm to modify and finish the morphing in order to fit the expressions to the face shape." Experimental features include "Proxy fitting to automatically fit with one-click clothes to the characters and their poses, without needing of vertgroups, weights or skeleton.", "Automodelling system to create characters starting from a 3d draft. The user just provides a very rough model of what he has in mind, and the system automatically turns it in a realistic and coherent character.", and "Measure system to create a character just giving the body measures. Currently it supports 33 "classic" dimensions, as used in the most of anthropometric studies and researches." Of course, it's probably not realistic to expect a hobbyist program should have all of the features of a plug-in developed by one person over just a few years. While I don't know of any specific programs which implement implicit elastic skinning as described here (http://rodolphe-vaillant.fr/permalinks/elastic_implicit_skinning_project.php) in 2014, I can't help but wonder why there has been seemingly no effort to modernize Poser's archaic methodology. A proper muscle/body mass solution that could be adapted to existing figures would solve so many of Poser's problems. Instead people still ask for better figures, replacements for V4 or Posette even. Sure, JCMs and pose-handles can go a long way to overcome the deficiencies of a nearly 20 year old method of rigging figures, but wouldn't it be great to have figures that move like flesh and bone and not just bendy tubes with various kludges applied to make them look right? Again, this is another of those "what do you expect from a hobbyist program" requests. And my answer is the same as it has been for nearly ten years: The program is called "Poser", so posing is something it should do correctly. No more gravity defying breasts, no more calves cutting into thighs and arms intersecting rib cages, no more magnets to deform the buttocks of a seated figure. There are fixes for all of these, sure, but the underlying problem is always the same. If that problem could be properly addressed, then it wouldn't require a rocket surgeon to produce a figure that doesn't have a zip code in the Uncanny Valley. I think Poser is a great program for many things, don't get me wrong. But considering the aforementioned competition, is there a single thing Poser does better than all of them? I'm struggling to think of what it could possibly be.

drafter69 posted at 12:00PM Fri, 02 November 2018 - #4338710

so who could replace Poser as a competitor to Daz3d Studio????

Wolf359 is being really subtle, LOL, but I think he means Reallusion/Iclone, with it's Character Creator 3, is a direct competitor to DS since it can also do "Figure posing and IRray rendering of V4,M4 ,Hivewire&Genesis 1,2,3,8."

I think you have some good points and suggestions that would be worth a look for SM to consider.

It would be nice with a more advance preview render that would allow for testing or specifying specific elements you would like to test, such as shadows, displacements etc. However Poser do have the ability to render out a PBR preview simply using low settings, the ability to area render at higher settings and so forth.

With Poser's viewport, Firefly and Cycles interpreting the same materials so differently, it would be interesting to see how Poser's viewport could be modernized without breaking all existing materials.

I don't think its possible to do this, taking into account that these render engines are completely different. I know I have said it before and that it tend to rub some people the wrong way, but there is no future in Firefly, for SM to spend resources on it would be a waste of time, it would require them to give it such an overhaul that they might as well spend the time implementing a new render engine instead. In my opinion they should rather spend their energy making Superfly faster, better lighting features, especially HDRI.

Instead people still ask for better figures, replacements for V4 or Posette even.

I think these should be kept separate from the features you refer to. Adding new high quality figures one or two each release would not interfere with the developments that you are referring to. And besides that, you have to ask yourself if such muscle/body feature would solve anything if they were applied to existing Poser figures? I doubt that. I do like the idea that you are talking about, but for this to work you need decent figures first. I can't help thinking about the facial features that they added to the new characters, where you could manipulate their faces in new and "smarter" way. Yet people did not really care, because the underlining figures were of such quality that it didn't matter. So don't get me wrong I would welcome the idea that you suggest, if you could apply it to existing figures at will like the Gs and Vs characters, but if you can't, new figures are needed first.

But considering the aforementioned competition, is there a single thing Poser does better than all of them? I'm struggling to think of what it could possibly be.

I don't really know if that's a relevant question, meaning it would be the same as asking is there anything that Maya does better than Max that would make you change from one to the other. I think you would find the answer to be almost purely what people prefer. And again can only stress that rarely only one program is used in any production, people use bit and pieces from several. Nothing prevent you from Posing in Poser and import the stuff into 3ds max or blender and continue working there, if you find some of their tools are working better for what you need.

I can only speak for my self since Poser is part of my workflow, that I use Poser because I think its faster to work in, the cloth room is easy to use and I haven't had that good experiences with Daz cloth features. Since I normally export everything to 3ds max anyway, its fairly few features that Im actually using that much. I do agree with you, that I would move more of my workflow to Poser were some of the features better. In fact I might move everything here, as I mostly use 3ds max, for rendering, hair, camera and lighting. Especially the last two, because I really don't like how these work in Poser. Since this is my workflow, the one feature that I personally would appreciate the most, would be for materials to be correctly imported into 3ds max, as this is currently what takes the most time for me.

So just to sum up, I don't really disagree with anything you are saying, but I think that they have to do it in the correct order, you can't keep adding advanced features when the basic of what people need is not working correctly. Meaning the characters in general, add those and then introduce what you suggested.

I love how desperate some people seem to be in their need to hate Daz... I am not the only one who dumped Poser because Daz3d Studio is easier and there is lots of content available for it.... The sites that seem to have been for poser content seem to be shutting down while sites that sell Daz material seem to be growing.... I do not want to see Smith Micro go under as I believe that competition is good for everybody, but SM doesn't seem to be able to pull their act together..... Develop Poser for the professional and they can never sell enough copies to stay in business. 3d art is a hobby for most people, not a profession. Daz has geared itself to the hobbyist, SM doesn't seem to know what they are aiming for..... Now, before you attack me for my not glorifying Poser all I can say is don't waste your time.... What Smith Micro DOES speaks to loudly that I can't hear anything you are saying to object.....

drafter69 posted at 12:56PM Fri, 02 November 2018 - #4338773

I love how desperate some people seem to be in their need to hate Daz... I am not the only one who dumped Poser because Daz3d Studio is easier and there is lots of content available for it.... The sites that seem to have been for poser content seem to be shutting down while sites that sell Daz material seem to be growing.... I do not want to see Smith Micro go under as I believe that competition is good for everybody, but SM doesn't seem to be able to pull their act together..... Develop Poser for the professional and they can never sell enough copies to stay in business. 3d art is a hobby for most people, not a profession. Daz has geared itself to the hobbyist, SM doesn't seem to know what they are aiming for..... Now, before you attack me for my not glorifying Poser all I can say is don't waste your time.... What Smith Micro DOES speaks to loudly that I can't hear anything you are saying to object.....

I don't hate DAZ. Never have. Not on my radar enough to even care. Apparently though, knowing that I and a few others are going to keep using Poser, despite your insistance that we stop and follow you to your new software, is driving you nuts. Good. good.

SM did a great job, when they took over Poser first. They've improved the morph brush and introduced the dependency editor. Two things, maybe the only two things ;-) , I miss painfully in DAZ Studio.

3D-Mobster posted at 11:59PM Fri, 02 November 2018 - #4338761

I think you have some good points and suggestions that would be worth a look for SM to consider.

It would be nice with a more advance preview render that would allow for testing or specifying specific elements you would like to test, such as shadows, displacements etc. However Poser do have the ability to render out a PBR preview simply using low settings, the ability to area render at higher settings and so forth.

---

With Poser's viewport, Firefly and Cycles interpreting the same materials so differently, it would be interesting to see how Poser's viewport could be modernized without breaking all existing materials.

---

I don't think its possible to do this, taking into account that these render engines are completely different. I know I have said it before and that it tend to rub some people the wrong way, but there is no future in Firefly, for SM to spend resources on it would be a waste of time, it would require them to give it such an overhaul that they might as well spend the time implementing a new render engine instead. In my opinion they should rather spend their energy making Superfly faster, better lighting features, especially HDRI.

---

Both Superfly AND Firefly already use HDRI lighting and have been able to for quite a while.

Instead people still ask for better figures, replacements for V4 or Posette even.

---

Figures are a matter of taste and hype. It actually took me a while to like V4 and I never really did like A4. I thought V3 and A3 were better lookig figures. None of that means that hyper realistic figures aren't better, just different and not what I need.

---

But considering the aforementioned competition, is there a single thing Poser does better than all of them? I'm struggling to think of what it could possibly be.

---

I don't really know if that's a relevant question, meaning it would be the same as asking is there anything that Maya does better than Max that would make you change from one to the other. I think you would find the answer to be almost purely what people prefer. And again can only stress that rarely only one program is used in any production, people use bit and pieces from several. Nothing prevent you from Posing in Poser and import the stuff into 3ds max or blender and continue working there, if you find some of their tools are working better for what you need.

I can only speak for my self since Poser is part of my workflow, that I use Poser because I think its faster to work in, the cloth room is easy to use and I haven't had that good experiences with Daz cloth features. Since I normally export everything to 3ds max anyway, its fairly few features that Im actually using that much. I do agree with you, that I would move more of my workflow to Poser were some of the features better. In fact I might move everything here, as I mostly use 3ds max, for rendering, hair, camera and lighting. Especially the last two, because I really don't like how these work in Poser. Since this is my workflow, the one feature that I personally would appreciate the most, would be for materials to be correctly imported into 3ds max, as this is currently what takes the most time for me.

So just to sum up, I don't really disagree with anything you are saying, but I think that they have to do it in the correct order, you can't keep adding advanced features when the basic of what people need is not working correctly. Meaning the characters in general, add those and then introduce what you suggested.

You can't think of anything Poser does better? How about being innovative? I'll give DAZ all the praise o the content, because that's what they do. But I haven't seen they actually do anything better with the features they have, just differently.

You can't think of anything Poser does better? How about being

innovative? But I haven't seen they actually do anything better with the features

they have, just differently.

You have made it clear that you will never be a Daz studio user so I am not trying to "convert" you or anyone . however

Where has poser innovated recently ??

Rigging& content dev?? Animation?? Rendering??

Daz studio's Clothing rigging tools are way more advanced than the "fitting" room for content development and every former poser content maker I have spoken to, on this matter ,say that is the main reason they switched and ..would never go back,

And the Poser figure rigging tools are primitive and archaic according to "Ero" who complained loudly and publicly about them ,in these forums ,when creating "Project E"

The Daz Custom figure set tools are more modern and support geografting and are much more comprehensive according to former poser figure maker SIXUS1.

Yes the poser morph brush is "useful" but for what??? creating a character morph right there in the viewport and fixing poke thru in clothing.

Well Most professional Content developers are using external modeling programs to create proper ,precise custom character morphs and poke thru should not be happening if you have a proper cloth rigging system with collision iterations like auto fit.

As a Professional Character animator who has Poser Pro 2014 for windows, I can assure you Poser has not been "innovative" in the Area of Character animation& motion building.

Its character animation tools have remained effectively unchanged since the 1990's as it has no nonlinear motion clip system Like the free one included in Daz studio. and the Daz puppeteer system of animating via stored poses in an easy interface, is far more innovative than those aged pose dots in poser. And the unidirectional"IK system is broken and unusable

SM tacked on a fork of blender cycles and called it "Superfly" However you cannot even switch to viewport rendered mode and see instant updates of your material changes and I dont believe it actually supports the extemely powerful Principled Shader that is in the "real Cycles engine nor the NPR toon render from the "real" blender cycles.

Also.. Where does one get the Official poser SDK for external innovative, poser plugin development??

There are many third party Plugins that add much needed functionality to Daz studio. ..some free.. some paid.

Such as GraphMate Spline graph editor& keyMate dope sheet editor for Character animationThe Fluidos Fluid dynamics simulator that works like Nextlimit realflow in Daz studio.

The FREE Teleblender plugin that exports Daz scenes to blender with auto creation of cycles node for the Daz materials. or the "Dyncreator" plugin by RMP merchant "lola69" that I use to convert my modeled Dynamic clothing to Opitex format for cloth simulation.

Other than the willdial script . what was the last major innovative external plugin developed for poser ????

EClark1894 posted at 1:07PM Sat, 03 November 2018 - #4338845

Both Superfly AND Firefly already use HDRI lighting and have been able to for quite a while.

Figures are a matter of taste and hype. It actually took me a while to like V4 and I never really did like A4. I thought V3 and A3 were better lookig figures. None of that means that hyper realistic figures aren't better, just different and not what I need.

I know that Poser can use HDRI, but the features are very limited for actually working with HDRI. For instant the ability to rotate the map, control it strength and so on. Even the ability to work with a default light while the HDRI is the only light in the scene.

Obviously figures are a matter of taste wont argue with that, but to me there is a reason why G and V characters are so popular and its not only a matter of content. But they are actually quite good. With decent rigs and so forth. And there is no reason as I see it, why SM shouldn't match them with their own characters, remember that Poser through all the releases kept adding new characters and for the most time of higher quality, as far as I know, it started to really drop when they failed matching those that Daz released. And my guess is that they thought it weren't really important because people could just use those. But it have put them behind in my opinion. Because they have to follow up of what figures Daz releases, as you can see when the new G were released and it couldn't easily be used in Poser. In my opinion that is a bad position to be in for SM, instead of making and supporting their own characters.