So out of curiosity, why not pool that risk with multiple creators and center on a figure? I noticed in your .sig that you're working on one

Some of the Female "saviour" figures of the past were team efforts with multiple developers sharing the risks Antonia had "poser place" with a Blustery "mission statement" and some very fiercely vocal loyalists here in the forums with massive sig banners promising "They are coming!"

But on their way to glory and triumph, they tripped over a massive, aged pile of incompatible V4 content and fell into the black hole of obscurity that will soon swallow PE as well.

The attachment to V4 is not merely a practical logistic one but a cultural mindset.

No my friend, as I stated earlier any figure that does not offer the invisible, seamless transition that Genesis one did from V4 in Daz studio, will never supplant or even seriously compete with V4 in poser.

wolf359 posted at 2:07PM Mon, 28 January 2019 - #4344370

No my friend, as I stated earlier any figure that does not offer the invisible, seamless transition that Genesis one did from V4 in Daz studio, will never supplant or even seriously compete with V4 in poser.

Sad, but true. But the most important part here is vendor support. Without support from the TOP vendors, you might as well not even bother. Main reason I haven't done much with PE yet is because there is hardly any support for her apart from dynamic dresses. (Nothing wrong with the dresses, but you only need so many..)

wolf359 posted at 12:43PM Mon, 28 January 2019 - #4344370

The attachment to V4 is not merely a practical logistic one but a cultural mindset.

No my friend, as I stated earlier any figure that does not offer the invisible, seamless transition that Genesis one did from V4 in Daz studio, will never supplant or even seriously compete with V4 in poser.

And that's never going to happen because Smith Micro does not own the Daz figures, and the only way to incorporate that seamless transition into Poser is if Smith Micro were able to distribute that figure data along with their software. It's no different than Daz incorporating templates for HiveWire's figures in DS. It can't happen without HiveWire's permission. So the closest you get is scripts like Wardrobe wizard that can read data from one figure and translate it to another. And just as numerous folks have pointed out in the past, that conversion/translation is hit and miss. Sometimes it works fine, other times it doesn't. Same with texture transformer. It passes okay sometimes, other times you get bad stretching.

The new figure/vendor support is a catch 22. Most vendors don't want to bother with new figures because they'd rather wait to see if the figure takes off, but it doesn't take off because most customers don't want to invest in the new figure until they see more vendor support for it. And the vicious cycle continues.

The only solution really would be if Poser developed something similar to iclone's CC3 software. But I really don't see that happening any time soon. There is the fitting room, but that too requires the user to put their own effort into it, and we see how well that works out for most.

The only solution really would be if Poser developed something similar to iclone's CC3 software. But I really don't see that happening any time soon.

Reallusions system of projecting the shape of your imported genesis Character onto a CC3 base avatar is clever, but it has one major caveat that has made the new Reallusion/Renderosity Partnership a non event IMHO.

You have to first open and export the Character FROM Daz studio as FBX.

Based on the many forum comments I have seen,most poser users simply will not install or use Daz studio for any purpose.. as matter of principle.

I haven't even touched on strategic direction (or any new corporate initiatives that might come up.)

Interesting issue you hinted at Peng, Even poser users agree that SM is not "marketing" poser very well.

Well before a marketing campaign begins there must first be strategic planning.

Perform on honest analysis of your products features and price structure compared to similar products within the same Market.

Study what the market trends are regarding areas of year over year growth

Identify your target demographic.

Market to them with targeted promotional videos ,web site images of people in your target demographic using your product.

By now anyone, remotely involved in 3D/CG , has heard about Adobe's acquisition Algorithmic the makers of substance painter.

Substance painter was the number one choice of indie Game developers in the single man to small shop demographic

The video game industry made $137 Billion in 2018 with some projecting $180 billion in 2019.

https://venturebeat.com/2018/04/30/newzoo-global-games-expected-to-hit-180-1-billion-in-revenues-2021</https:>

Adobe aquired Mixamo the online Character motion retargeting system and they have their own budding 3D content application "Adobe Dimension"

Forget what you think or feel about Adobe and look at their decisions and take a guess what their STRATEGIC MARKET PLAN might be..in fact take 137 billion guesses.

When Daz inc released genesis 3 the still render portrait artists were stunned to find a base mesh with less polygon faces than G2 ..and all quads.

Daz's other company "Morph3D" began promoting their "MCS" character content packages for using Game optimized daz content in Unity and extended game licences began appearing the Daz store. in 2016.

The Unity dev community reacted with a collective Yawn as far as I could tell.

They have since relaxed their game use licencing & retooled the morph 3D site with an apparent new focus on 3D character Avatars for online VR gaming for the "Vive "VR hardware platform. ( rolling my eyes!)

Forget what you think or feel about Daz and look at their decisions and take a guess what their STRATEGIC MARKET PLAN might be..in fact take 137 billion guesses.

Reallusion Created and Released Character creator 3. Look at this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hazb4e0V94&t=

Pretend you never heard of Reallusion yet still take a guess what their STRATEGIC MARKET PLAN might be..in fact take 137 billion guesses.

Remember the poser "game dev version" that was in the unity store. have a look now ..PLEASE!!

https://assetstore.unity.com/packages/add-ons/applications/poser-pro-game-dev-20703

Any guesses on what Smith Micro's STRATEGIC MARKET PLAN might be???

I would love to hear them.

wolf359 posted at 2:06PM Mon, 28 January 2019 - #4344435 Any guesses on what Smith Micro's STRATEGIC MARKET PLAN might be??? I would love to hear them.

I don't think they even know. maybe to squeeze every last cent out of the program with broken promises and false hope before they stop supporting it? lol I don't know just bull shitting but I see your point.

I don't think they even know. maybe to squeeze every last cent out of the program with broken promises and false hope before they stop supporting it?

BTW I am not claiming that getting into game content Dev is the only way forward for everyone in 3D/CG.

(although those who ignore the gaming content market do so at their own peril)

But the thing that should concern poser loyalists the most is the lack of any sign of a strategic plan for where poser should be positioned in todays 3D Character market.

Not debating about the absence of a poser native, widely supported, Ideal BMI white chick model to replace a 12 year old one from Daz inc yet some how inherit her 80 gigs of clothing.

All the 3D character apps have young ,pretty white girls these days.

I know, I started with creating figures back in the days for the original Unreal Tournament game series, so no doubt the gaming industry today is where it's at. And should be the goal.

wolf359 posted at 7:56PM Mon, 28 January 2019 - #4344435

Daz's other company "Morph3D" began promoting their "MCS" character content packages for using Game optimized daz content in Unity and extended game licences began appearing the Daz store. in 2016.

The Unity dev community reacted with a collective Yawn as far as I could tell.

It was much earlier than 2016 that Daz (and rosity) started offering extended game licenses. I remember looking at those licensing fees back in 2011-12 when I was working on my own game project, long before Morph3D was a thing.

Thing is, the DS/Poser content stores have always focused primarily on female pinup content - which is not a big seller in the indie game market. That market wants monsters, tough guys, weapons, armor, vehicles, environments, etc. Sure you have the busty warrior princesses in bikini armor, but most games don't focus on that sort of content, and most Poser/DS content artists don't focus on the type of content indie game devs want. Just look at the top selling content in the Unity asset store, or the Unreal marketplace. Massive difference in the type of content being offered at those stores. You don't see page after page of lingerie like you do over here and at Daz. You see content that you'd see in games like Halo, D&D, Star Wars, etc. So it's really no surprise to me that morph3D didn't take off like some thought it would - not a whole lot of game devs want their avatars running around in sparkly underwear.

wolf359 posted at 2:17AM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344435

Any guesses on what Smith Micro's STRATEGIC MARKET PLAN might be???

I would love to hear them.

Im not so sure that SM should or would benefit a lot from venturing into the gaming market and despite the numbers you mentioned in gaming industry, which is huge no doubt there.

But I don't think a huge amount of those goes to the graphic prefab market. Most of the money goes to big gaming studio which I doubt buy assets, the largest amount probably goes to the mobile market and again I doubt a lot of successful mobile games or games in general contain bought assets. Most are designed specifically for the game internally or maybe through freelancing using common tools in 3D. Like 3ds max, substance painter as you mentioned and so forth.

I highly doubt that Poser or Daz3d have anything to offer to the pipeline of creating games. Which is most likely also why none of them seems to really be used a lot here or talked about as viable tools. So I perfectly understand why SM won't support or sell Poser game dev anymore, it was a bad idea back then and still is :D Unless they can make a tool so unique that game developers can't live without it, they would have to spend so much money and manpower to make anything competitive, which might have a slim chance of success at best.

So to me they should keep focus on what they are, and have said it before but will again :D Keep improving getting better integrated with Blender and the rest of the 3D market and they have to start selling Poser with high quality human/animal models and assets in general. Lets be honest SM have slacked on this for a long time, leaning on Daz characters, which to me is still a complete mystery as their whole software is based on easy to use, good looking assets. Lacking here must have costed them a lot, I would guess. What type of new character and how good quality would be possible to make, should be the first and only concern to begin with when deciding to make a new Poser version, if they then figure out that these characters need some new technology or changes, then they should be concerned about adding that.

When all that is done, then focus on improving UI, performance etc.

SM still sells a Gave Dev version. It's called Poser Pro. Small game devs and Daz/Poser folk wont be using Allogrithmic apps on paid subscription any more than they pay monthly for a copy of Photoshop to use to paint a dress. Keep up the entertainment folks. I've been watching with this thread in amusement for what seems years now as I suck back the morning coffee. The misinformation and marketing are quite well developed here.

parkdalegardener posted at 7:34AM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344474

SM still sells a Gave Dev version. It's called Poser Pro. Small game devs and Daz/Poser folk wont be using Allogrithmic apps on paid subscription any more than they pay monthly for a copy of Photoshop to use to paint a dress. Keep up the entertainment folks. I've been watching with this thread in amusement for what seems years now as I suck back the morning coffee. The misinformation and marketing are quite well developed here.

There is a Game Dev version OF Poser Pro, Poser Pro is not THE Game Dev version of Poser.

Im not so sure that SM should or would benefit a lot from venturing into the gaming market and despite the numbers you mentioned in gaming industry, which is huge no doubt there. But I don't think a huge amount of those goes to the graphic prefab market. Most of the money goes to big gaming studio which I doubt buy assets, the largest amount probably goes to the mobile market and again I doubt a lot of successful mobile games or games in general contain bought assets. Most are designed specifically for the game internally or maybe through freelancing using common tools in 3D. Like 3ds max, substance painter as you mentioned and so forth. I highly doubt that Poser or Daz3d have anything to offer to the pipeline of creating games. Which is most likely also why none of them seems to really be used a lot here or talked about as viable tools.

You are correct of course. To be honest, I dont necessarily believe that SM,Daz or Reallusion should pin ALL of their hopes on cashing in on the indie game dev market After all there is already alot of competition selling ready to use content in the Unity and Unreal stores ,some at very competitive prices

In the case of Daz, they seem to have misjudged the indie game market entirely for the reasons Shane Already correctly cited.

Daz's only fall back is to create another "new" genesis version and make it just different enough to yet again break most existing content and force the hapless ,content hoarding ,Dazites to re-purchase their content and Figure generation specific utilities ( skinbuilder,Fit control etc.) all over again.

Reallusion at least seems to have a multi-targeted strategic plan https://www.reallusion.com/iclone/

They offer version for people who are fine with the New high quality Iclone Avatars and need a comparable ,non subscription based alternative, to Maya or motionbuilder as it uses the Maya human IK system leased from Autodesk.

They have Character creator 3 which offers Daz studio users a gatetway Maya level Character animation tools while solving problem of leveraging their Multi-gigabyte hoards of existing Daz content into CC3 and Iclone.

They have their own Iclone content store and a partnership with Renderostiy& Hivewire

They support many of the major human mocap hardware and even offer a facial mocap system for iphone owners.

People who already own any major 3DCC package Like C4D ,Lightwave,Modo or Blender can use Iclone pipeline as a realtime motionbuilding and retargeting solution in their CG filmmaking pipelines.( as I am doing)

And that includes Unity & Unreal users who are not actually game developers but only use those free engines for realtime rendering of animated movies as this Guy does with Unity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u51-GPQx3MU

to me they should keep focus on what they are, and have said it before but will again :D Keep improving getting better integrated with Blender and the rest of the 3D market and they have to start selling Poser with high quality human/animal models and assets in general. Lets be honest SM have slacked on this for a long time,

Well they did release an update to "Pauline" but where is poor paul?? the "John Galt" of male poser figures.

They shuttered their "Content Paradise" store. And left the creation and marketing of poser content to a third party who subcontracts to a dwindling loose informal, confederation of lingering merchants who by and large seem to think that yet another set of Panda makeup for V4 is a sustainable business model.

When all that is done, then focus on improving UI, performance etc.

You make no mention of updating the animation tools to a functional IK system or nonlinear motion clip system or a spline graph editor with more than three interpolation methods and tension controls or key frame culling to cleanup imported mocap.

I see very little potential for Market growth in the area of still image pin up portraits.

EClark1894 posted at 1:56PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344478

There is a Game Dev version OF Poser Pro, Poser Pro is not THE Game Dev version of Poser.

Actually, it is. Poser Game Dev was released after Poser 2014 Pro, and the game dev features was rolled into Poser Pro in version 11. So yes, Poser Pro 11 is the game dev version.

DreaminGirl posted at 10:17AM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344481

EClark1894 posted at 1:56PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344478

There is a Game Dev version OF Poser Pro, Poser Pro is not THE Game Dev version of Poser.

Actually, it is. Poser Game Dev was released after Poser 2014 Pro, and the game dev features was rolled into Poser Pro in version 11. So yes, Poser Pro 11 is the game dev version.

Okay, technically we're both right.

Well, colour me surprised, Rendo decided to make their own figure instead of supporting PE. Looks promising so far, and with decent vendor support. Now I guess all bets are off..

a new Rendo drinking game

each time Wolf mentions Iclone, take a drink.

DreaminGirl posted at 4:15PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344497

Well, colour me surprised, Rendo decided to make their own figure instead of supporting PE. Looks promising so far, and with decent vendor support. Now I guess all bets are off..

really? hope this ain't another Renda....

wolf359 posted at 6:11PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344480

Well they did release an update to "Pauline" but where is poor paul?? the "John Galt" of male poser figures.

They shuttered their "Content Paradise" store. And left the creation and marketing of poser content to a third party who subcontracts to a dwindling loose informal, confederation of lingering merchants who by and large seem to think that yet another set of Panda makeup for V4 is a sustainable business model.

When all that is done, then focus on improving UI, performance etc.

You make no mention of updating the animation tools to a functional IK system or nonlinear motion clip system or a spline graph editor with more than three interpolation methods and tension controls or key frame culling to cleanup imported mocap.

I see very little potential for Market growth in the area of still image pin up portraits.

Even with the updates to the characters, it is simply not good enough for a program which is based on working with characters. A lot of programs can use and render 3d objects, so at least to me when you shave off everything, character and working with them is the strong point off Poser and Daz3d (Maybe Iclone as well, don't know it that well). SM when they release Poser need to have characters in them, so potential customers look at them and want them and therefore buys Poser. The tools available to 3D artists capable of modelling humans (which are not few) are really good, so at least to me, there is no excuse for SM not to hire a good freelancer to do it for them.

The reason I didn't mention all the things I thought they should focus on, were just to keep it short :)

I don't think they should neglect animation, but I don't agree that there are no potential in still images. I do however agree that images of just characters standing there doing whatever have little potential, but honestly I think its more general thing and not just 3D, at least to me such images offers very little in terms of inspiration for the viewer as they rarely tell any story or have emotions attached to them.

In regards of Poser Dev version, them integrating it into Poser pro, doesn't really count as being their game dev version as I see it. But simply a way for them to make it vanish, and my guess is that the feedback they got, showed them that this is not something they want to support or expand on in the future. SM have a history of releasing a confusing amount of Poser versions, which is basically the same with features turned on and off depending on what name it should have. To me this is also a very poor way of releasing Poser. They should release a single version containing all the features available for that release instead. As I doubt they actually benefit from such way of releasing it, as it simply causes confusion for no reason and in general give off a bad impression I think.

Khai-J-Bach posted at 12:09PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344499

DreaminGirl posted at 4:15PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344497

Well, colour me surprised, Rendo decided to make their own figure instead of supporting PE. Looks promising so far, and with decent vendor support. Now I guess all bets are off..

really? hope this ain't another Renda....

I was one of the people badly burned by the Renda thing (I ended up making a GND style addon for a base figure that poofed the next day). I guarantee this is not another Renda.

DreaminGirl posted at 12:12PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344497

Well, colour me surprised, Rendo decided to make their own figure instead of supporting PE. Looks promising so far, and with decent vendor support. Now I guess all bets are off..

link?

Hey Blackhearted, since you are here, can you tell us if there are any plans for a male figure of the same caliber? What I need most of all is a decent male

TheDarkerSideOfArt posted at 1:31PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344531

DreaminGirl posted at 12:12PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344497

Well, colour me surprised, Rendo decided to make their own figure instead of supporting PE. Looks promising so far, and with decent vendor support. Now I guess all bets are off..

link?

Introducing La Femme 1 for Poser 11

Deecey posted at 12:38PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344535

TheDarkerSideOfArt posted at 1:31PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344531

DreaminGirl posted at 12:12PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344497

Well, colour me surprised, Rendo decided to make their own figure instead of supporting PE. Looks promising so far, and with decent vendor support. Now I guess all bets are off..

link?

Introducing La Femme 1 for Poser 11

thank you Deecey

Looks better than PE!!!

Glad to See Blackhearted Still in the game

I would speculate easier to develop content for . They will likely get more vendors on board.

I suppose the main question is will it make people realize the folly of trying to cling to their 12 year old 85 gigbyte V4 content hoards.

https://my.smithmicro.com/la-femme-base-figure-for-poser-11.html

DreaminGirl posted at 12:33PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344533

Hey Blackhearted, since you are here, can you tell us if there are any plans for a male figure of the same caliber? What I need most of all is a decent male

Male figures are an iffy market. Ideally there should be a matched pair of figures, but when male products reach 10% of the market of female ones it's natural that a female figure is first out the door. Ladies first ?

Blackhearted posted at 6:55PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344525

Khai-J-Bach posted at 12:09PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344499

DreaminGirl posted at 4:15PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344497

Well, colour me surprised, Rendo decided to make their own figure instead of supporting PE. Looks promising so far, and with decent vendor support. Now I guess all bets are off..

really? hope this ain't another Renda....

I was one of the people badly burned by the Renda thing (I ended up making a GND style addon for a base figure that poofed the next day). I guarantee this is not another Renda.

too late. the $0.00 price is really $3.50 ..... way to go Rendo! only they can foul up a good thing right off....

wolf359 posted at 2:01PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344541

Looks better than PE!!!

Glad to See Blackhearted Still in the game

I would speculate easier to develop content for . They will likely get more vendors on board.

I suppose the main question is will it make people realize the folly of trying to cling to their 12 year old 85 gigbyte V4 content hoards.

https://my.smithmicro.com/la-femme-base-figure-for-poser-11.html

La Femme comes with two dev rigs. The base dev can be used for character and morph creation. The clothing dev rig comes pre-loaded with JCMs that can be copied from the dev base to the clothing being rigged. JCMs are only in the arm/shoulder, thighs, and knees. Pretty straightforward.

EDITED TO ADD: Nerd is also in process of creating some EXCELLENT tutorials that will really help step through the rigging process.

Blackhearted posted at 8:04PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344542

DreaminGirl posted at 12:33PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344533

Hey Blackhearted, since you are here, can you tell us if there are any plans for a male figure of the same caliber? What I need most of all is a decent male

Male figures are an iffy market. Ideally there should be a matched pair of figures, but when male products reach 10% of the market of female ones it's natural that a female figure is first out the door. Ladies first ?

Thanks for your reply! yea I know, males hardly sell, but one can hope ?

ah well I just needed the base figure - no rigging, clothes etc - as a guide figure for some room's etc I'm working on. (would have just loaded the base mesh as a guide I don't have poser 11. don't need it)

but seems the offical word is, they can't do anything about the minimum $3.50 charge to checkout.. since I won't use anything else but the figure mesh (and that not even to render I just require a scale) it's not worth it.

I wish you luck tho, she looks to be an excellent figure.

She looks great guys :). Best of luck with her!!

Laurie

After an hour or so with LaFemme, I see the pros and cons. A lot of both.

This thread, however, is called "why are you still using V4," and I'll simply say I won't be switching out.

V4/Sasha-16 + "Pasha" (Sasha with male morph and M4 skins) cannot be touched, in my opinion, for character-formation, posing, rendering, and verisimilitude.

See next post for image ...

::::: Opera :::::

Sasha and Pasha

wolf359 posted at 2:37PM Tue, 29 January 2019 - #4344541

I suppose the main question is will it make people realize the folly of trying to cling to their 12 year old 85 gigbyte V4 content hoards.

https://my.smithmicro.com/la-femme-base-figure-for-poser-11.html

It isn't folly - a customer can't buy what isn't made. I didn't run my V4 Clothing runtime through WW, Xdr, and the fitting room for giggles - I did it because vendors chose not to support any figure not named Victoria 4. It is the same reason I am invested in items like HCS, Shoe Last, Texture Transformer, Texture Converter, etc.

When vendors make content I want, I buy.

If all we get from content vendors is the same collection of early 20-something Euro Trash, hookerware, lingerie, and impractical armor, then the new figure will be ignored just like every other figure that was made after V4.

After an hour or so with LaFemme, I see the pros and cons. A lot of both.

Out of Idle curiosity John ,Did you apply any existing animated Pz2's or BVH to the Lafemme?? Just wondering how it accepts standard motion data for animation.

I did shoot in a variety of set poses, like ballet and yoga poses. They were not exact, but they did not explode into spaghetti either. I'll run a BVH later today.

:: og ::

I applied an old but excellent animation pose that came with poser, "skipping," to LaFemme. It's motion capture by "EyesJapan."

I rendered a quick preview vid, completely unshaded...

It is pretty close. You'll see the legs crossing and running through each other.

Click here for video

::::: Opera :::::

Actually that animation is not bad, which means the figure does not have an unnecessarily exotic bone rig hierarchy and could be used for motion retargeting in iclone 3Dxchange.

This expands her usability in my opinion.

Using her because she is having most Extension ever made for a Poser Doll " Best Poser doll ever "

I still use V4 because the g8f characters mostly have big butts. I personally don't care for ladies with Hugh behinds. V4 is still

a very easy figure to use. 

Using Sasha-19, a weightmapped version of Vic4, upgraded in 2019 from its previous version: Sasha-16

I've use V4 because it's simply the best for Poser, Had a go with Daz but I prefer Poser.

Using Sasha-19, a weightmapped version of Vic4, upgraded in 2019 from its previous version: Sasha-16

At the moment, the website is not active because the servers are in Ukraine.

Oh, dang. I had Sasha 16 in my runtimes. I don't know why she isn't there anymore. I think maybe because of all the steps I had to go through just to get her to load in Poser. And I didn't have the skill set I have now...

Using Sasha-19, a weightmapped version of Vic4, upgraded in 2019 from its previous version: Sasha-16

here is the last version I got. Download it within the next few days. Some other Poser user added Sasha to his/her download page. Don't remember who that was.

https://adp.spdns.org/SASHA-16(2019Edition).zip

I've used Sasha a couple of times; will give her another run - I have a separate runtime for her on an external drive.

here is the last version I got. Download it within the next few days. Some other Poser user added Sasha to his/her download page. Don't remember who that was.

https://adp.spdns.org/SASHA-16(2019Edition).zip

V4 is sufficient for my little pictures - but I will admit Daz has some beautiful outfits for their G8 girls.

Not that I can afford them anyway.

A_Sunbeam posted at 12:11 PM Thu, 15 September 2022 - #4444512

V4 is sufficient for my little pictures - but I will admit Daz has some beautiful outfits for their G8 girls.

Not that I can afford them anyway.