Completely agree that the Poser preview render enige needs an update to include all Root nodes options like PoserSurface, PhysicalSurface and CyclesSurface.

A logical step-up would be to go for Eevee as the Poser preview render engine.

The small Raytrace Preview is actually a part of the original FireFly render engine. => Checkbox in the FireFly render engine settings screen => Progressive mode, and was introduced before SuperFly/Cycles came along.

Best regards all and have a nice W-End, Tony

So now that some of the dust has settled, there are a few major question I have about Poser 11 pro. Did Renderosity get the source code for Poser 11 pro with this deal? If they did, are there any plans to port Poser to Linux?

Poser is THE only piece of commercial content creation software I still use. I would happily buy it again at full price for Native Linux support.

If you DID get the source, but have no plans to update it for profit, would you consider a bounty to Open Source it?

I feel that this last bit of the topic really didn't warrant the negativity and personal vitriol displayed... Perhaps I'm a fool for expecting a poser forum discussion to rise to the level of behaviour I expect from young children. :(

meatSim posted at 1:47PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356979

I feel that this last bit of the topic really didn't warrant the negativity and personal vitriol displayed... Perhaps I'm a fool for expecting a poser forum discussion to rise to the level of behaviour I expect from young children. :(

Asking if they got the source code?!? Or planned Linux Version? Or if we could buy them Open Sourcing Poser? I mean, I admit I'm frequently tone deaf... but, "vitriol"?

Joe@HFG posted at 2:59PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356985

meatSim posted at 1:47PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356979

I feel that this last bit of the topic really didn't warrant the negativity and personal vitriol displayed... Perhaps I'm a fool for expecting a poser forum discussion to rise to the level of behaviour I expect from young children. :(

Asking if they got the source code?!? Or planned Linux Version? Or if we could buy them Open Sourcing Poser? I mean, I admit I'm frequently tone deaf... but, "vitriol"?

Renderosity has already made it clear that they intend to update Poser, and not let it languish. This pretty much makes it obvious that they have the source code. Also getting old team members as well as new involved in the process of handling the transition and future updates.

Poser Transition Update

Deecey posted at 2:33PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356989

Renderosity has already made it clear that they intend to update Poser, and not let it languish. This pretty much makes it obvious that they have the source code. Also getting old team members as well as new involved in the process of handling the transition and future updates.

Poser Transition Update

Thanks for the response. I've been away from Poser 3D for almost 10 years. Or at least since the DAZ/Poser split. I upgraded to Poser 11 Pro when S&M had a $49 sale, but never actually installed it.

I coincidently started be active here almost to the day that Rendo announced acquiring Poser.

As the only non-Linux native program I use now, I hope Linux Support become a priority for the new Poser/Rendo staff.

Joe@HFG posted at 3:40PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356991

Deecey posted at 2:33PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356989

Renderosity has already made it clear that they intend to update Poser, and not let it languish. This pretty much makes it obvious that they have the source code. Also getting old team members as well as new involved in the process of handling the transition and future updates.

Poser Transition Update

Thanks for the response. I've been away from Poser 3D for almost 10 years. Or at least since the DAZ/Poser split. I upgraded to Poser 11 Pro when S&M had a $49 sale, but never actually installed it.

I coincidently started be active here almost to the day that Rendo announced acquiring Poser.

As the only non-Linux native program I use now, I hope Linux Support become a priority for the new Poser/Rendo staff.

How many people use Linux vs Windows or Mac?

Deecey posted at 2:42PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356992

How many people use Linux vs Windows or Mac?

That's kind of a false equivalency when Adobe has maintained an effective monopoly of artistic creative space. While people like me have been moving toward FOSS creative tools for years, it's only recently that Adobe's stance on older version of their software being piracy weather you obtained them legally or not, is driving artists to reconsider Adobe, and their native OS.

If you don't need the Adobe suite. how many people wouldn't need to use Windows or Mac? Between Apple's decision to boycott MANY card manufacturers, most notable nVidia, and Adobe's strong arm tactics that hold your past work hostage if you choose not to pay their ransom, "the times, they are a changin'".

If you are interested, JCristina has started a series on "Life after Adobe" on his YouTube channel.

If I HAVE to run Poser in a VM, I probably will. But it would be nice if I didn't have too.

Joe@HFG posted at 4:00PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356994

Deecey posted at 2:42PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356992

How many people use Linux vs Windows or Mac?

That's kind of a false equivalency when Adobe has maintained an effective monopoly of artistic creative space. While people like me have been moving toward FOSS creative tools for years, it's only recently that Adobe's stance on older version of their software being piracy weather you obtained them legally or not, is driving artists to reconsider Adobe, and their native OS.

If you don't need the Adobe suite. how many people wouldn't need to use Windows or Mac? Between Apple's decision to boycott MANY card manufacturers, most notable nVidia, and Adobe's strong arm tactics that hold your past work hostage if you choose not to pay their ransom, "the times, they are a changin'".

If you are interested, JCristina has started a series on "Life after Adobe" on his YouTube channel.

If I HAVE to run Poser in a VM, I probably will. But it would be nice if I didn't have too.

How can it be a false equivalency? I would think that to port Poser to native Linux support would be a huge undertaking. I was just asking how many people use Linux vs Windows or Mac is all.

And I'm not quite sure what Adobe has to do with Poser being ported to Linux.

I am very happy that Larry (the creator of this great app) and Stephen and BB for the render engines, and Deecey to get the quality manuals, are back to get Poser going forward. Looking forward to what they have planned.

Best regards, and have a good week all.

Was referring to the little soars and animosity just previous to your posts

Joe@HFG posted at 9:02PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356985

meatSim posted at 1:47PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356979

I feel that this last bit of the topic really didn't warrant the negativity and personal vitriol displayed... Perhaps I'm a fool for expecting a poser forum discussion to rise to the level of behaviour I expect from young children. :(

Asking if they got the source code?!? Or planned Linux Version? Or if we could buy them Open Sourcing Poser? I mean, I admit I'm frequently tone deaf... but, "vitriol"?

I've been waiting for a post like that.. Almost deserves its own sticky or announcement in the forum. I never would have seen it if you hadn't posted it.

Deecey posted at 9:04PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356989

Joe@HFG posted at 2:59PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356985

meatSim posted at 1:47PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356979

I feel that this last bit of the topic really didn't warrant the negativity and personal vitriol displayed... Perhaps I'm a fool for expecting a poser forum discussion to rise to the level of behaviour I expect from young children. :(

Asking if they got the source code?!? Or planned Linux Version? Or if we could buy them Open Sourcing Poser? I mean, I admit I'm frequently tone deaf... but, "vitriol"?

Renderosity has already made it clear that they intend to update Poser, and not let it languish. This pretty much makes it obvious that they have the source code. Also getting old team members as well as new involved in the process of handling the transition and future updates.

Poser Transition Update

meatSim posted at 10:46PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4357029

I've been waiting for a post like that.. Almost deserves its own sticky or announcement in the forum. I never would have seen it if you hadn't posted it.

Deecey posted at 9:04PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356989

Joe@HFG posted at 2:59PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356985

meatSim posted at 1:47PM Sun, 14 July 2019 - #4356979

I feel that this last bit of the topic really didn't warrant the negativity and personal vitriol displayed... Perhaps I'm a fool for expecting a poser forum discussion to rise to the level of behaviour I expect from young children. :(

Asking if they got the source code?!? Or planned Linux Version? Or if we could buy them Open Sourcing Poser? I mean, I admit I'm frequently tone deaf... but, "vitriol"?

Renderosity has already made it clear that they intend to update Poser, and not let it languish. This pretty much makes it obvious that they have the source code. Also getting old team members as well as new involved in the process of handling the transition and future updates.

Poser Transition Update

Actually here's one with lots of replies in it 8-)

Poser Transition Update Newsletter Article

Deecey it's a chicken and the egg problem. A lot of people are fed up with Microsoft, and don't want to move to Windows 10. End of support for Windows 7 comes up 1/2020. Windows 7 market share as of June was 38% vs 40% for Windows 10, and all those people have not moved to Windows 10 for a reason. I can guarantee you if the programs I need to use are available as Linux programs, I will be using Linux as of January 2020, as in six months from now. If they aren't I'm probably going to have to go with Windows 10. I would vastly prefer to move my equipment over to Linux.

The next major version of Windows 10 will have a native Linux kernel. So asking for Linux support may happen to every windows program at some point. You can read more on it here With that in mind, the separation of Windows and Linux will no longer be as big, once that version is released.

As far as how many people use Linux, that depends on who you ask. For web stuff, just over 1%. For severs, Linux dominates the market. The Mac, about 12 percent for Web stuff, far less than 1 percent for servers.

Once Windows 10 gets the native Linux kernel, about 60 percent of the pc's in the world will be able to run anything Linux based...

FlagonsWorkshop posted at 8:59PM Mon, 15 July 2019 - #4357090

Deecey it's a chicken and the egg problem. A lot of people are fed up with Microsoft, and don't want to move to Windows 10. End of support for Windows 7 comes up 1/2020. Windows 7 market share as of June was 38% vs 40% for Windows 10, and all those people have not moved to Windows 10 for a reason. I can guarantee you if the programs I need to use are available as Linux programs, I will be using Linux as of January 2020, as in six months from now. If they aren't I'm probably going to have to go with Windows 10. I would vastly prefer to move my equipment over to Linux.

Yeah that is why I was asking. Last I saw (which was a while ago) I think desktop users of Linux was under 2%. But like I say that was a while ago ... and with Scott's following post, that's intriguing. But I wouldn't know the first thing about how much work a port would be, but I would think it could get pretty involved.

As for Windows 10, love/hate relationship there for me. Can't afford a new Mac, and have too much Windows software to consider another OS.

Just because Microsoft is ending support for windows 7 doesn't mean your machine is going to explode. I've got a machine with XP still on it and it works fine,

I'm one of those itching to switch to Linux, I'm on Win7 and have no intention of going Win10. Poser is one of the few things still keeping me on Windows. If there was a Linux version, I would probably make the switch overnight.

movida posted at 3:57AM Tue, 16 July 2019 - #4357110

Just because Microsoft is ending support for windows 7 doesn't mean your machine is going to explode. I've got a machine with XP still on it and it works fine,

But it does mean you probably won't be able to run any future version of Poser on that machine. I've been a Mac user all my life, but eventually had to move over to Windows 7 because I couldn't afford to upgrade my Mac. I still can't, but I probably can afford a windows 10 upgrade. Had to switch OSes before, can probably do it again.

Desktop Linux doesn't have a lot of mainstream adoption because developers won't support it. What Adobe is doing now, is what I predicted would happen. My signature actually came after I was attacked on here for claiming that Adobe had a monopoly. Later the person who attacked me was made a mod, rather disciplined.

There used to be a link to the message itself, but when they changed the forum software, the link was broken.

The number Linux desktops is increasing quickly now because of Steam's release of Proton is giving many PC only games the ability to run in Linux with very little performance loss. Proton is Direct X10/11 to Vulkan translation layer that also uses a lot of elements of WiINE.

Essentially, if the Mac version of Poser is Mojave complaint, there shouldn't be too much work to make a Linux version. I don't know if Poser 11 Pro makes specific use of nVidia Cuda. Either way, a Vulkan implementation would be very cross platform.One thing worth considering how niche Poser's market is. While Poser is considered a bit of a 3D toy, in the Win/Mac communities, a Linux version would have a novelty that would make it be taken far more seriously by a growing user base.

I would also consider an ARM version of Linux. With Raspberry Pi a many other SBC's coming down the pike, we could see traditional desktop PC's replaced by devices attached to 4KTV's. It would also ease in a transition to IOS or Android.

There way more volatility in the world of tech than there has been since the creation of Poser 1. I remember running the 68K version of Poser on my Amiga under a Mac emulator.

When ZBrush runs as well in Linux as it does in windows then I might switch, but until then I'm stuck with windows. And aside from some random code savvies getting it mostly working but crippled in linux, there has been no official release or even suggestion that it will ever happen from Pixologic. And I don't 3D without zbrush. As for Adobe, there are plenty of alternatives for each of their titles, so I don't see how anyone could say they're a monopoly. Far from it. They just happen to be an industry standard. Im not comfortable with their buyout of Allegorithmic but not much anyone can do about that, except buy a full license to substance while its still available. I've been looking at Corel's Painter recently and like it but I don't have $500 to drop on it or the time to learn it at the moment so I'll stick to photoshop for now.

Well, now I'm stumped because none of this has anything to do with Renderosity acquiring Poser, but curiosity makes me wonder makes Linux so great that you want Poser to run on it. Which only takes us even more off thread if anyone answers.

AmbientShade posted at 5:19AM Tue, 16 July 2019 - #4357123

... I don't 3D without zbrush.

When I sculpt digitally, I use Blender. But then I never invested the time to learn ZBrush's interface.

As for Adobe, there are plenty of alternatives for each of their titles, so I don't see how anyone could say they're a monopoly. Far from it.

I suggest giving a look to at the reaction to Adobe's stance on older versions of their software. I refuse to have MY work held ransom so they can enjoy a vendor lock in, and when a company has to resort to terror tactics to force user lock in, it's a sign that company has forgotten who works for whom.

As my signature makes abundantly clear, it is an EFFECTIVE monopoly. While they may not have a strict "exclusivity", no one can offer a credible argument that Adobe does not have "a control that makes possible the manipulation of prices." As anyone displeased with their recent threat legal action for simply using a previous version they legally purchased, found out... canceling your Adobe Ransome leads to Adobe not allowing you to access YOUR OWN WORK.

They just happen to be an industry standard. Im not comfortable with their buyout of Allegorithmic but not much anyone can do about that, except buy a full license to substance while its still available. I've been looking at Corel's Painter recently and like it but I don't have $500 to drop on it or the time to learn it at the moment so I'll stick to photoshop for now.

I would recommend GiMP and or Krita. Between the two there is really no feature not available, and your work in never hidden from you behind a paywall.

But I can access my psd files without opening photoshop or even having it installed. There's a whole host of other apps - to include gimp - that read psd and ai files, as well as every other file format that photoshop reads. As long as you don't get silly and save your files to their web servers with no backups, then cancel your subscription, there's no reason you can't open your files. They can threaten legal action all they want, as long as you've purchased your old copies of adobe software and have a valid serial they don't have a legal leg to stand on. And Adobe knows that. You can legally use that software until it no longer functions on whatever system you're using it on. I still have and use an old copy of cs4 and will continue to do so for as long as I can keep it running. Some of those old features I like better, but I've been using the 2018 versions lately. Mainly because the 2019 versions don't want to run correctly on my win7 pc. And I save all my work locally, so if I ever decide to cancel my subscription I still have access to my files. That just seems like common sense to me.

Personally I don't like gimp. But I'll use it in a pinch, though haven't needed to in years. Never used Krita. My PC only has so much space so I can't install all the software I'd like to. Right now the Corel suite of tools really has my interest, but I can't afford them at the moment so I'm just watching tutorial vids about it on youtube. My next big purchase will likely be a Cintiq (drool), so that's where all my extra funds are being funneled to. Then maybe Corel.

Poser, but curiosity makes me wonder makes Linux so great that you want Poser to run on it.

I guess for the same reasons someone would want Poser to run on mac. Preferred OS. People get highly defensive about these things, like you're insulting their children or grandma.

I don't use Adobe Cloud storage either (or One Drive for that matter). The only reason I would like to see Poser (or anything else for that matter) run on Linux is I would like to get away Microsoft Facebook Google et all owning my data and desktop. And yes it is a bit off topic.

FlagonsWorkshop posted at 12:08AM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357161

I would like to get away Microsoft Facebook Google et all owning my data and desktop.

This. So much this.

Ach, it is all a balance.

Right now Windows is the most used OS and that is the reason why most hacking, and personal information stealing apps are for Windows.

When Mac OS or Linux get as much or more end users then Windows, all hacking and stealing apps will come your way too. It is just a matter of time actually.

Stealing apps shift as soon as the end users shift. => Hey, information is money.

tonyvilters posted at 7:36PM Tue, 16 July 2019 - #4357174

Ach, it is all a balance.

Right now Windows is the most used OS and that is the reason why most hacking, and personal information stealing apps are for Windows.

When Mac OS or Linux get as much or more end users then Windows, all hacking and stealing apps will come your way too. It is just a matter of time actually.

Stealing apps shift as soon as the end users shift. => Hey, information is money.

I probably shouldn't say this because it is off topic, but Tony has a gun to my head and he's threatening to shoot my dog. Seriously though, I found out a Loooong time ago that the reason Microsoft is so widely used is because they have a deal in place with all the PC companies out there that their OS ships on every PC made. So even if a company doesn't use the Windows OS, Microsoft still gets paid. Those companies figured since they have to pay them anyway, might as well use their OS. That's one of the reasons OS2 Warp didn't fare too well, and probably why Linux isn't more popular. Apple makes their own computers so they put their own OS on the System.

Okay, back to the topic of this thread.

Someone elsewhere raised the idea of making Poser FOSS (free and open-source software), like Blender and Linux. Has anyone been discussing this possibility?

Guys, nobody purchases a full-fledged program only to make it free and open source. Please.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 8:36AM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357212

Guys, nobody purchases a full-fledged program only to make it free and open source. Please.

cough up until IBM bought Red Hat anyway ;) Seriously though, continuing development on software requires a revenue stream. That obviously doesn't preclude it from being FOSS but Blender already is so it would be redundant. I don't see any reason Bondware would go that route with Poser. If they ever did they would have to figure out what the revenue stream was going to be for it ahead of time.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 11:21AM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357212

Guys, nobody purchases a full-fledged program only to make it free and open source. Please.

Right. Because the business-as-usual model has worked so well for Poser up to this point, hasn't it? How many times has Poser been sold now, how many disappointing releases have there been, and how many times have we heard "this could be the end of Poser"? And isn't it about time to try something new to break that cycle? It's got to break down completely at some point, and my guess would be that this is it.

Blender and Linux are able to survive and even thrive as FOSS because of a dedicated and enthusiastic community of developers, users, and backers, and I see no reason why Poser wouldn't be able to do the same. Imagine a community with access to the code and the things they would be able to do with it -- features you've wanted to add to Poser for years and now suddenly you could, or things that you've begged them to fix and yet they carry over from version to version.

As it stands right now, Bondware/Renderosity are simply the latest buyer to acquire Poser, keeping it alive long enough to release yet another disappointing version that sees the user base shrink even further. Poser has become something like Michigan J. Frog from "One Froggy Evening" (1955) (http://www.supercartoons.net/cartoon/732/one-froggy-evening.html), where each new person to come across it starts out with visions of success, and in the end are desperate to get rid of the thing.

Nice article with Tim Choate of Bondware:

What are the short-term plans for Poser?

From now thru mid-October, we are hyper-focused on putting out a bridge-release that adapts Poser to Bondware's license management system, product download system, etc.

In parallel, we are adding to our dev team, creating a beta testing team and seeking advice from previous Poser team members, contributors and community members to construct a product roadmap for the future.

After mid-October, we will begin to engage the community on potential product roadmap and begin to roll out incremental improvements.

https://www.posersoftware.com/article/418/5-questions-about-whats-next-for-poser-with-ceo-tim-choate?fbclid=IwAR37xwPe25-T6YTNf3v3kaaGGsJqbB7OBMFaHsofou1EH6HbMlNt3CmKIbE

Glitterati3D posted at 2:26PM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357235

Nice article with Tim Choate of Bondware:

Nice. Thanks for sharing that.

ProtocolZero posted at 4:01PM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357230

Right. Because the business-as-usual model has worked so well for Poser up to this point, hasn't it? How many times has Poser been sold now, how many disappointing releases have there been, and how many times have we heard "this could be the end of Poser"?

How many of those times the owners of Poser were a marketplace for products for Poser that has been going for years and years? Oh, right.

Blender and Linux are able to survive and even thrive as FOSS because of a dedicated and enthusiastic community of developers, users, and backers, and I see no reason why Poser wouldn't be able to do the same. Imagine a community with access to the code and the things they would be able to do with it -- features you've wanted to add to Poser for years and now suddenly you could, or things that you've begged them to fix and yet they carry over from version to version.

I imagine a hot mess with this. Imagine the amount of content buyers going confused because a product can't possibly support all the addons and versions of Poser that would come from that.

Blender is made for content creators. It requires someone who's tech-savvy. Poser's model is content-library based, meaning that the bulk of users will be people who only know how to load library content, maybe adjust the poses a bit.

As it stands right now, Bondware/Renderosity are simply the latest buyer to acquire Poser, keeping it alive long enough to release yet another disappointing version that sees the user base shrink even further.

Well, I'll just be here glad that I haven't reached a point to be so pessimistic about everything. I highly doubt Renderosity would give us yet another disappointing version - specially seeing as they're composed of a bunch of people who does use Poser (or used to, at the very least).

In any case, yes, the article that Glitterati linked to. It very much seems to me that they got their heads in the right place.

ProtocolZero posted at 4:05PM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357230

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 11:21AM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357212

Guys, nobody purchases a full-fledged program only to make it free and open source. Please.

Right. Because the business-as-usual model has worked so well for Poser up to this point, hasn't it? How many times has Poser been sold now, how many disappointing releases have there been, and how many times have we heard "this could be the end of Poser"? And isn't it about time to try something new to break that cycle? It's got to break down completely at some point, and my guess would be that this is it.

Blender and Linux are able to survive and even thrive as FOSS because of a dedicated and enthusiastic community of developers, users, and backers, and I see no reason why Poser wouldn't be able to do the same. Imagine a community with access to the code and the things they would be able to do with it -- features you've wanted to add to Poser for years and now suddenly you could, or things that you've begged them to fix and yet they carry over from version to version.

As it stands right now, Bondware/Renderosity are simply the latest buyer to acquire Poser, keeping it alive long enough to release yet another disappointing version that sees the user base shrink even further. Poser has become something like Michigan J. Frog from "One Froggy Evening" (1955) (http://www.supercartoons.net/cartoon/732/one-froggy-evening.html), where each new person to come across it starts out with visions of success, and in the end are desperate to get rid of the thing.

The business-as-usual model has already changed, just by nature of Poser being owned by Renderosity. Previous Poser business model was primarily software driven, and less focused on content (relying more on third party support). Now it will be both, which I think will be beneficial to Poser in the long run.

Deecey posted at 4:34PM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357245

The business-as-usual model has already changed, just by nature of Poser being owned by Renderosity. Previous Poser business model was primarily software driven, and less focused on content (relying more on third party support). Now it will be both, which I think will be beneficial to Poser in the long run.

Oh, and to Poser users as well.

Miss B posted at 4:36PM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357249

Deecey posted at 4:34PM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357245

The business-as-usual model has already changed, just by nature of Poser being owned by Renderosity. Previous Poser business model was primarily software driven, and less focused on content (relying more on third party support). Now it will be both, which I think will be beneficial to Poser in the long run.

Oh, and to Poser users as well.

Yes that too! LOL That goes by extension 8-)

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 4:05PM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357244

How many of those times the owners of Poser were a marketplace for products for Poser that has been going for years and years? Oh, right.

Tell you what -- let's hop on over to Content Paradise and see how well that's working out. Oh, wait...

I imagine a hot mess with this. Imagine the amount of content buyers going confused because a product can't possibly support all the addons and versions of Poser that would come from that.

How many different versions of Linux are there? Marketplace seems capable of supporting more than one, while maintaining a surprising level of compatibility between them. And really -- how many different versions of Blender are in use at any one time? Really only one, unless for whatever reason someone chooses to use an older version. Still FOSS, and still community-based and -supported, tho', and successfully, too.

Blender is made for content creators. It requires someone who's tech-savvy. Poser's model is content-library based, meaning that the bulk of users will be people who only know how to load library content, maybe adjust the poses a bit.

And your point is... what??? How is that supposed to rule out a FOSS-based Poser? Poser would still be Poser, and it would still do the same things that everyone expects Poser to do. You're going to have to explain your point here. [EDIT] Keep in mind also that a FOSS-based version of Poser eliminates the price barrier to entry for new users, same as with DAZ Studio. And Poser definitely needs to grow its user base.

Well, I'll just be here glad that I haven't reached a point to be so pessimistic about everything. I highly doubt Renderosity would give us yet another disappointing version - specially seeing as they're composed of a bunch of people who does use Poser (or used to, at the very least).

Yeah, that's probably what the Smith Micro crew said in the beginning, as well.

ProtocolZero posted at 7:52PM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357253

How many of those times the owners of Poser were a marketplace for products for Poser that has been going for years and years? Oh, right.

Tell you what -- let's hop on over to Content Paradise and see how well that's working out. Oh, wait...

How many different versions of Linux are there? Marketplace seems capable of supporting more than one, while maintaining a surprising level of compatibility between them. And really -- how many different versions of Blender are in use at any one time? Really only one, unless for whatever reason someone chooses to use an older version. Still FOSS, and still community-based and -supported, tho', and successfully, too.

And your point is... what??? How is that supposed to rule out a FOSS-based Poser? Poser would still be Poser, and it would still do the same things that everyone expects Poser to do. You're going to have to explain your point here. [EDIT] Keep in mind also that a FOSS-based version of Poser eliminates the price barrier to entry for new users, same as with DAZ Studio. And Poser definitely needs to grow its user base.

You're forgetting that Poser has been around for more than 20 years. In fact, Poser created the marketplace for content that you're talking about. Both Renderosity and DAZ were created in answer to that need. And while Studio might be free, it is not open source.

EClark1894 posted at 7:14PM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357269

You're forgetting that Poser has been around for more than 20 years. In fact, Poser created the marketplace for content that you're talking about. Both Renderosity and DAZ were created in answer to that need. And while Studio might be free, it is not open source.

No, I'm not forgetting that, but it's also irrelevant to the conversation at hand. Poser has been on life support for a long time now, barely limping along from version to version and bleeding users every step of the way. Everyone who has acquired the IP has mismanaged it in one way or another, and it's Smith Micro's good fortune that they managed to find someone willing to pay to take it off their hands rather than see it simply rot away in their inventory, much like DAZ has done with Carrara or Bryce.

And while it's true that this hobby and the marketplaces that support it started out because of Poser, Poser has unfortunately lived long enough to see itself become pretty much irrelevant. DAZ is the one driving this market now, and Poser is at best a distant second and falling further behind every day.

A little history: I started out in 3D with Poser 6 & 7. I switched to DS3A after Poser 8 came out because I simply HATED Poser 8, but I've bought every version of Poser since then -- 1) because I've been hoping that Poser would eventually become something I could grow to love again (which it hasn't, unfortunately), and 2) because I was hedging my bet and trying to protect my content investment, wanting a fall-back option in the case of something going POOF with DAZ and DS. I AM invested in Poser and I WANT it to succeed, but the history there ain't good, and everyone knows that. If I was Renderosity right now, I might be feeling like I just got hired to be the new Defense Against the Dark Arts instructor at Hogwarts.

I'm seriously surprised at this resistance to the idea of a FOSS-based Poser. It never occurred to me the community would take the suggestion so negatively.

EClark1894 posted at 7:42PM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357269

And while Studio might be free, it is not open source.

No, it's not. But imagine if Poser was.

Keep in mind that if DAZ goes out of business tomorrow for whatever reason, users will eventually lose the use of their content that relies on Studio, once the software stops running. I believe the license even prohibits anyone from patching it or reverse engineering it, even just to keep it going a little longer. Every dollar a customer spends in DAZ's store makes them just that much more dependent on DAZ, because there is no real alternative. (And here I'm talking about the average user, not the super users and content creators who routinely export assets between multiple applications.)

Now imagine a FOSS-based Poser, with a license that says something to the effect that -- in the event of the unforseen -- users are free to edit and recompile the software to keep it running on their machines, or even supports the idea of a larger effort by a different group with the resources to keep Poser alive or even bring it back from the dead. Is that really such an outrageous idea?

Remember that Blender.org is confident enough to make their own code base public, even though that means a competitor like Autodesk can get a copy and pick it apart to their advantage. And Blender is constantly growing in terms of both capability and user base, and they even have a store that sells books, tutorial DVDs, and swag to support their efforts in addition to the funding they receive from the community. This IS possible.

I really don't get how making Poser opensource would help it a bit. Let me back up a bit.

How many versions of Linux are there? Well, technically there are only 5 major kernel revisions, so far less than there are versions of Windows.... Yes there are "spins" on it from various places, but just about all of them use the exact same kernel. They just slap a new UI on it, and off they go..... And you can change the ui to any of them, in just about all of them.

How many versions of Blender are there? More than most people realize. There are a lot of them out there. Just as an example, here is one of the more popular ones that is based on Blender. Fluid Designer

For those that don't know, Blender was created to enhance tools that a studio wanted (NeoGeo) That didn't go so well, so they started the Blender Foundation so it would not just disappear. And it worked, Blender is alive and well.

Many other programs have tried that route, and simply disappeared. I could list hundreds of them.... They were not "useful" compared to other offerings available.

Blender is a production suite, meaning you can do a project from start to finish in it, without ever leaving the program. It supports libraries and many other things that people may assume it does not. Not to mention tons of addon's, render engines, free content, etc.

Poser on the other hand, is not a production suite. So it is sort of niche in many ways. If it was converted to opensource, the chances of it surviving are slim to none, just like most programs that go opensource. Opensource requires money, and a lot of it, or it will simply fade away.

Poser is far better off with a company that wants to invest in it. That basically guarantees that it wont, simply fade away. Opensource, guarantees nothing. Rendo/Bondware have an investment in Poser, going opensource could damage that investment, and that isn't a route that I would think they would want to go. They have a huge opportunity to get a return on investment with Poser, and going opensource is not part of that opportunity. It is a huge risk....

ProtocolZero posted at 9:57PM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357276

EClark1894 posted at 7:42PM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357269

And while Studio might be free, it is not open source.

No, it's not. But imagine if Poser was.

They'd go belly up tomorrow.

Keep in mind that if DAZ goes out of business tomorrow for whatever reason, users will eventually lose the use of their content that relies on Studio, once the software stops running. I believe the license even prohibits anyone from patching it or reverse engineering it, even just to keep it going a little longer. Every dollar a customer spends in DAZ's store makes them just that much more dependent on DAZ, because there is no real alternative. (And here I'm talking about the average user, not the super users and content creators who routinely export assets between multiple applications.)

Ironically, Daz claims that Studio was created as a hedge against Poser going out of business.

Remember that Blender.org is confident enough to make their own code base public, even though that means a competitor like Autodesk can get a copy and pick it apart to their advantage. And Blender is constantly growing in terms of both capability and user base, and they even have a store that sells books, tutorial DVDs, and swag to support their efforts in addition to the funding they receive from the community. This IS possible.

Have you ever read Blender's history? Go to Blender.org and do so. Blender is the brainchild and struggle of one man to keep Blender going. They only have two full time employees. And while it sounds nice, not everyone can afford to work for a free and open source organization.

EClark1894 posted at 10:52PM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357281

They'd go belly up tomorrow.

And how many people said that about DAZ's idea to give DS away? Lots. And yet they're the ones eating Poser's lunch, and have been for quite some time.

Ironically, Daz claims that Studio was created as a hedge against Poser going out of business.

Which means that irony has a wicked sense of humor.

Have you ever read Blender's history? Go to Blender.org and do so. Blender is the brainchild and struggle of one man to keep Blender going. They only have two full time employees. And while it sounds nice, not everyone can afford to work for a free and open source organization.

I have. Tell me how it can't apply to Poser. It was also the product of one man who took it commercial, and while that worked out for many years, that model seems to be petering out, which each company acquiring it playing a form of corporate musical chairs, trying not to be the last one standing when the music finally ends. Smith Micro managed to avoid that fate when they unloaded Poser on Bondware

shvrdavid posted at 10:58PM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357280

Poser on the other hand, is not a production suite. So it is sort of niche in many ways. If it was converted to opensource, the chances of it surviving are slim to none

Based on what? That's like saying "don't start a business at all, because most businesses fail". Yes, they do, but a few do manage to find that sweet spot that makes it all work, and that's reason enough for many people to try, some over and over and over again. Poser has been commercial for many years and it's spiralling the drain, slowly and surely going down the tubes. Maybe it's time to try something new.

Poser is far better off with a company that wants to invest in it.

I agree, but "invest" can mean many things to many people. Can you honestly say that the Blender crew aren't "invested" in their product? Or the Linux guys?

Opensource, guarantees nothing.

Neither does the commercial approach, and we know that that's been tried, many times and for many years. Poser's running out of chances.

Rendo/Bondware have an investment in Poser

So did Fractal Designs, and Metacreations, and Curious Labs, and e-Frontier, and Smith Micro, and they all ended up bailing on it eventually.

Going opensource could damage that investment, and that isn't a route that I would think they would want to go. They have a huge opportunity to get a return on investment with Poser, and going opensource is not part of that opportunity. It is a huge risk....

Finally something I can agree with you on. Bondware probably DOESN'T want to give up on the ability to recoup its cost through selling licenses, but as I have said many times before, that's already been tried.

Poser has always been made more valuable when content creators like DAZ offered their content to go with Poser. DAZ moved to Genesis, and stopped offering "Poser content." No other content provider has filled the void. Poser doesn't need to "become" DAZ Studio. But we do need some fantastic Poser-native content.

Linux fans should just accept the fact that there won't be any Linux versions of Poser, Photoshop etc.

Iirc portions of posers code such as the face and cloth rooms - are licensed tech. In order to go open source those portions would have to be pulled from the software, in order to prevent licensing violations. And in some cases pulling that tech out of poser may be a violation in itself. Either way it would create issues all around. Any content that relies an that tech would no longer be usable. What good would it serve to break half the content in the software and upset the folks that rely on it.

AmbientShade posted at 12:19AM Thu, 18 July 2019 - #4357295

Iirc portions of posers code such as the face and cloth rooms - are licensed tech. In order to go open source those portions would have to be pulled from the software, in order to prevent licensing violations. And in some cases pulling that tech out of poser may be a violation in itself. Either way it would create issues all around. Any content that relies an that tech would no longer be usable. What good would it serve to break half the content in the software and upset the folks that rely on it.

That's a valid point, but it's not an insurmountable obstacle. Licenses can be renegotiated or allowed to expire -- I don't know the particulars in this case, and it reads like you don't, either. Remember that the dynamic cloth plug-in for DAZ Studio from OptiTex was licensed, and in a way that prevented DAZ from being able to offer their own version of dynamic cloth until the original license expired. It's only once that occurred that they're now able to offer their dForce items. Why not take a closer look at the situation before we start dismissing our options out of hand, tho?

ronaldknights posted at 12:29AM Thu, 18 July 2019 - #4357294

Poser has always been made more valuable when content creators like DAZ offered their content to go with Poser. DAZ moved to Genesis, and stopped offering "Poser content." No other content provider has filled the void.

And???

Poser doesn't need to "become" DAZ Studio.

No one is saying it has to. [EDIT] Well, I certainly haven't, at least.

But we do need some fantastic Poser-native content.

And you achieve that by giving people a reason to want to create content for your platform. What you actually see if your go into Renderosity's own store, however, is creators shifting away from Poser content creation in favor of DAZ Studio content creation. I have no great love for the crew running DAZ 3D these days (altho' the sales support folks are pretty awesome -- never had a sales issue they couldn't fix for me), but the company is stable and the platform is adding users and growing in capability. Poser has had, what -- six owners in 20 years? That kind of volatility is not encouraging.

Linux fans should just accept the fact that there won't be any Linux versions of Poser

Never say never.