I have only one thing to say about this "opensource like Linux!!!!!!" debacle, which is what runs down to most computer users who might be knowledgeable enough to use Linux but won't:

Most people wouldn't want to buy car parts and assemble their own car either. We want that car ready to be used, thanks.

Really, I really can't imagine that people vouching for an open source Poser have ever seen an older auntie trying to understand technology. Most of our user base, as far as I know, is people who want to make pretty images on the go to post online or whatever. And that's perfectly fine. But every single thing ever created that hasn't adapted to the customer base they actually HAVE (instead of trying to force the thing to be for their intended target audience) has failed. You cater to the people who ARE HERE - even if it wasn't your initial intention or what you had predicted, for some reason you got the attention of those people, and they're the ones paying your bills.

So I highly doubt that letting Poser go open-source - and thus create a whole bunch of versions of Poser, each for a different purpose - wouldn't just end up killing Poser for good.

Instead, what COULD be done is a better support for addon creation.

I am very flexible with whatever the release system but 2 things will KILL an app like Poser. => And by "kill" I mean : Level it to the ground and deeper. LOL.

• Subscription, that is a definite No-No.
• Cloud based. Even worse.

Pricing has become a delicate balancing act because DS is free, and let us be honest, they have the best content.

Blender is also free and about a couple of years more advanced in technology by now. One can walk in and out of Blender with obj files and maintain obj file quality (something that is impossible in Poser because Posers obj file handling is a very old MAX heritage).

Blender has Eevee, (really, at first I thought is was going to be a hype, but man oh man, that thing flies,) and it has some of the best rigging systems too.

I only hope they get the right people to pull it off, and what Renderosity needs right now are the most agressieve and tech savvy beta testers possible and LISTEN to them.

Content, content, content, 3D is all about content. You can build the best and most stable app of the Universe? ? DAZ and others will run with the money because of the content.

why not optimize Poser for Blender compatibility?

Poser can do many things Blender can not do, and Blender does some things Poser can not do.

Together, thy are the best combination possible. Add Krita to the list, and you don't need anything else.

The 3 Musketeers. One for all, and all for one. LOL.

A GoB (GoBlender) was asked for but no-go yet. => So the "fix" is in my first and second video on my YouTube channel; Tony Vilters Poser2Blender2Poser. 7 video's total but one and two are about this.

ProtocolZero posted at 6:11PM Thu, 18 July 2019 - #4357293

Based on what?... Neither does the commercial approach, and we know that that's been tried, many times and for many years. Poser's running out of chances. So did Fractal Designs, and Metacreations, and Curious Labs, and e-Frontier, and Smith Micro, and they all ended up bailing on it eventually. I agree, but "invest" can mean many things to many people. Can you honestly say that the Blender crew aren't "invested" in their product? Or the Linux guys?

You seem to be missing the fact that Bondware bought Poser, that is only part of the investment as well. Simply handing it over to opensource is an instant loss.

And to say that the previous companies that owned Poser bailed is an assumption. Sure, they eventually decided to sell, but assuming you know why isn't the true picture. Selling a software is a business decision, and nothing more. Smith Micro could have chosen to keep Poser, hire a huge graphics division and pushed the product like they do with the communication software, but they apparently chose to sell it instead of putting any further investment in it.

Constantly comparing Poser to successful opensource projects is a bit odd as well. If you compare Poser to FreeBSD, ReactOS, etc, then you will see that opensource projects with moderate backing, never really take off.

Comparing Poser to Linux is just ludicrous, I'm sorry, it is. Linux is the number one server operating system in the world. There is no comparison to the success of Linux.

IBM invested a billion dollars into the development of Linux, on the first check.... Then the Department of Defense wrote Linux a check with even more zeros in it.... Do you know what "Automotive Grade Linux" is? Add billions more.....

What you assume would happen to Poser if it went opensource, is missing billions of dollars for development compared to Linux.

Your arguments for why Poser should be opensource lacks the understanding of what makes the most successful opensource projects succeed. And that is the money, lots of it....

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 6:52PM Thu, 18 July 2019 - #4357313

I have only one thing to say about this "opensource like Linux!!!!!!" debacle, which is what runs down to most computer users who might be knowledgeable enough to use Linux but won't:

Most people wouldn't want to buy car parts and assemble their own car either. We want that car ready to be used, thanks.

You do realize that most open-sourced software is distributed not only as source code, but also as executables, right? Go to Blender.org right now, and you can get Blender in the format of your choice. Same with Linux, or GIMP, or Krita, or MAME, or any one of dozens of different open-sourced projects. No one is forced to have to recompile the source code. Why would an open-sourced Poser be any different?

shvrdavid posted at 6:58PM Thu, 18 July 2019 - #4357395

You seem to be missing the fact that Bondware bought Poser, that is only part of the investment as well.

I was making a point there that apparently wasn't as obvious as I thought it was. My mistake.

What I was alluding to was that Bondware/Renderosity's investment in Poser may not be primarily financial. I have no idea what they paid for it, but there is the possibility that they may not need the money back that badly, and can afford to let the acquisition pay for itself over the course of years (and not necessarily by selling licenses). They may honestly believe that Poser is the better application, and keeping it alive is all that matters. They may want to be the go-to people to cater to that section of the market that sees itself as shut out or left behind by DAZ. Or they may simply not want DAZ to have an unchallenged monopoly on this hobby/industry/whatever. (And having the means to give DAZ a metaphorical middle finger could be reason enough at this point.) It could be a combination of all of these, or even none of these, but by acquiring Poser they've achieved that goal and the money necessary to do that is incidental. THAT's what I meant by "investment".

Simply handing it over to opensource is an instant loss.

No, it's not, but that would also depend upon one's motivations. If the goal was to generate revenue by selling licenses, then YES, going open-source WOULD be a loss. However, if the goal is to keep Poser alive as an alternative platform for older content or content that was incompatible with DAZ Studio, and you plan on making your money back in the long term through content sales (just like DAZ) by catering to that market, then it's a win.

And to say that the previous companies that owned Poser bailed is an assumption.

No, it's not -- it's objective fact. Excluding Bondware/Renderosity, each previous owner held onto Poser for about 4 years and pooped out about 2 versions before fobbing it off onto someone else. The first couple of flips I can see, but really, probably the most amazing thing about Poser at this point is that each [EDIT] owner has managed to find someone else to buy it off of them before they pulled the plug on it for good. (And it sure as hell looked like Smith Micro was headed down that path before Bware/Rendo stepped up.) And as I've also pointed out, that cycle can only go on for just so long. My guess would be that -- unless BWare/Rendo can do something really amazing with it -- this is probably Poser's last chance.

Sure, they eventually decided to sell, but assuming you know why isn't the true picture.

I never claimed to know why. I'm simply commenting on what I've observed.

Smith Micro could have chosen to keep Poser, hire a huge graphics division and pushed the product like they do with the communication software, but they apparently chose to sell it instead of putting any further investment in it.

Yeah, because when I seek out a team of top-flight software engineers to retool my aged-out jury-rigged graphics software, I always look to -- what was it again -- Portugal or Singapore? Of course, only after I strip out the team that's been with the project for years and knows it inside and out -- gotta get a fresh start, don'tcha know? But hey -- at least they didn't bail on it, right? Yeah, that's TOTALLY not what they did.

Constantly comparing Poser to successful opensource projects is a bit odd as well. If you compare Poser to FreeBSD, ReactOS, etc, then you will see that opensource projects with moderate backing, never really take off.

You seem to be making an assumption here. I never claimed that Bware/Rendo SHOULD make Poser open-source -- someone else in a different forum made that suggestion, I liked it because I think it's a bold new direction with a fair chance of success, and I came here to throw it out for discussion. I'm willing to admit that Poser may NOT be a good candidate for open-source, but right now, the only real arguments I'm hearing against it are:

1. That Bondware/Renderosity are counting on making their money back by selling licenses. I don't know what their situation is or what their plans are. Yes, I've read the releases -- [paraphrasing a bit here] "great opportunity", "bright future", "bold new direction", yada yada yada, etc. etc. etc. -- same old boilerplate that everyone who has ever acquired Poser has said before. If their plans are to simply do their own version of what everyone else has already tried, then prepare to be disappointed. It'll just be another real-world example of the definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and again and expecting different results each time).

2. Licensing issues. This is probably the killer issue right here. Someone earlier pointed out that the Face and Hair rooms are licensed, and in a way that they can't be distributed or removed from the application. I pointed out that licenses can renegotiated or they can be allowed to expire, and there are probably other options. This could kill the idea itself, it could simply be a hurdle to overcome, or it could even not be a real issue at all. I don't know the details, and the person who raised the idea didn't sound like they did, either. But I'd say it's at least worth a look.

Comparing Poser to Linux is just ludicrous, I'm sorry, it is. Linux is the number one server operating system in the world. There is no comparison to the success of Linux.

It's a matter of degree, not of kind. The fact still remains:

1. Anyone can acquire Linux for free, either as source code or compiled.

2. They can edit the code and recompile it. Helps if they have a good idea to implement, know what they're doing, and have the skills to pull it off, but hey...

3. They can contribute financially to the development of Linux, either through donations, buying associated merch, or buying packaged releases.

4. Points 1 to 3 could also apply to a FOSS-based Poser.

Someone (or rather, a lot of someones) also spent a lot of money making Poser what it is today. Of course, not anything like the money that Linux received, but like I said -- it's a matter of degree, not of kind.

So now Bware/Rendo own this latest, greatest (and possibly last or at best next-to-last) version of Poser. What would stop them from cleaning up the source code and designating it as Code Base Zero (or whatever), resolving any possible licensing issues, and telling the community "This is where we're at. This is the process by which we're going to move the project forward. Now tell us where you want to go." Or -- as I've said many times by now -- they could just do the same crap that everyone has already tried time and again, and at best, I'd give them about 4 years and 2 versions before they also try to unload it on someone else, just like everyone else before them has done. (And if they CAN'T find someone to take it off their hands, then I predict that THEY will be the ones who finally kill off Poser, rather than sink more money into it. Wouldn't THAT be ironic?)

ProtocolZero posted at 8:34PM Thu, 18 July 2019 - #4357405

Each previous owner held onto Poser for about 4 years and pooped out about 2 versions before fobbing it off onto someone else.

Smith Micro owned Poser for about 12 years, released about 11 versions.

But what good are facts, when you can just assume the rest............................

shvrdavid posted at 10:47PM Thu, 18 July 2019 - #4357409

ProtocolZero posted at 8:34PM Thu, 18 July 2019 - #4357405

Each previous owner held onto Poser for about 4 years and pooped out about 2 versions before fobbing it off onto someone else.

Smith Micro owned Poser for about 12 years, released about 11 versions.

But what good are facts, when you can just assume the rest............................

You're correct.

Earlier comment:

Based on what?... Neither does the commercial approach, and we know that that's been tried, many times and for many years. Poser's running out of chances. So did Fractal Designs, and Metacreations, and Curious Labs, and e-Frontier, and Smith Micro, and they all ended up bailing on it eventually. I agree, but "invest" can mean many things to many people. Can you honestly say that the Blender crew aren't "invested" in their product? Or the Linux guys?

A correction on the history here. Fractal Design was more than just Poser. They also had Painter, Bryce, and Kai's Power Tools and several other applications. Later they merged with some other companies and formed Metacreations, who later had a hairbrained scheme to go into web-related products (sad day, I owned just about every one of the Metacreations applications). All of the graphics products were sold out to various companies.

So in reality you can count Fractal Design and Metacreations as ONE OWNER, and they produced Poser 1 through Poser 4.

The Poser team spun off after the Metacreations breakup and formed Curious Labs, and they released Poser 4.0.3, Pro Pack, and Poser 5. They also released Poser 6 in conjunction with eFrontier. Total number of years with Curious Labs = 6, and released 3 versions.

EFrontier, after having released Poser 6 in conjunction with Curious Labs, only released Poser 7 in December 2006.

Poser Pro was the first version released by Smith Micro in May 2008 Poser 8 - Aug 2009 Poser Pro 2010 - March 2010 Poser Debut - Feb 2011 Poser 9 and Poser Pro 2012 - Sep 2011 Poser 10 and Poser Pro 2014 - May 2013 Poser Pro Game Dev - Aug 2014 Poser 11 and Poser Pro 11 - Nov 2015 Old team let go Nov 2016

New team released Poser 11.1 Dec 2017 New team released Poser 11.1.1 Jan 2019

Poser sold to Renderosity June 2019

In spite of the length of time that SM owned Poser, SM wasn't a good fit for Poser. 90% of their business was IT/Wireless related. I never understood the logic of the acquisition.

ProtocolZero posted at 10:53PM Thu, 18 July 2019 - #4357405

Wouldn't THAT be ironic?

I don't think you see the ironic part at all....

ProtocolZero posted at 12:19AM Fri, 19 July 2019 - #4357405

You seem to be making an assumption here. I never claimed that Bware/Rendo SHOULD make Poser open-source -- someone else in a different forum made that suggestion, I liked it because I think it's a bold new direction with a fair chance of success, and I came here to throw it out for discussion. I'm willing to admit that Poser may NOT be a good candidate for open-source, but right now, the only real arguments I'm hearing against it are:

1. That Bondware/Renderosity are counting on making their money back by selling licenses. I don't know what their situation is or what their plans are. Yes, I've read the releases -- [paraphrasing a bit here] "great opportunity", "bright future", "bold new direction", yada yada yada, etc. etc. etc. -- same old boilerplate that everyone who has ever acquired Poser has said before. If their plans are to simply do their own version of what everyone else has already tried, then prepare to be disappointed. It'll just be another real-world example of the definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and again and expecting different results each time).

2. Licensing issues. This is probably the killer issue right here. Someone earlier pointed out that the Face and Hair rooms are licensed, and in a way that they can't be distributed or removed from the application. I pointed out that licenses can renegotiated or they can be allowed to expire, and there are probably other options. This could kill the idea itself, it could simply be a hurdle to overcome, or it could even not be a real issue at all. I don't know the details, and the person who raised the idea didn't sound like they did, either. But I'd say it's at least worth a look.

Comparing Poser to Linux is just ludicrous, I'm sorry, it is. Linux is the number one server operating system in the world. There is no comparison to the success of Linux.

It's a matter of degree, not of kind. The fact still remains:

1. Anyone can acquire Linux for free, either as source code or compiled.

2. They can edit the code and recompile it. Helps if they have a good idea to implement, know what they're doing, and have the skills to pull it off, but hey...

3. They can contribute financially to the development of Linux, either through donations, buying associated merch, or buying packaged releases.

4. Points 1 to 3 could also apply to a FOSS-based Poser.

I see one huge difficulty in making Poser FOSS. Content development.

Remember that Poser is not a content DEVELOPMENT tool (like Blender is). Poser is a content manipulation and rendering tool. Content is created in external software and then imported and rigged to work in Poser.

So ... if Poser is made FOSS and then starts getting hundreds of people all around the world working on it, what happens to content development? It's very difficult to create content for a moving target that is constantly undergoing change, so you'll probably see content support disappear. What would happen to Poser then?

ProtocolZero posted at 8:52AM Fri, 19 July 2019 - #4357399

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 6:52PM Thu, 18 July 2019 - #4357313

I have only one thing to say about this "opensource like Linux!!!!!!" debacle, which is what runs down to most computer users who might be knowledgeable enough to use Linux but won't:

Most people wouldn't want to buy car parts and assemble their own car either. We want that car ready to be used, thanks.

You do realize that most open-sourced software is distributed not only as source code, but also as executables, right? Go to Blender.org right now, and you can get Blender in the format of your choice. Same with Linux, or GIMP, or Krita, or MAME, or any one of dozens of different open-sourced projects. No one is forced to have to recompile the source code. Why would an open-sourced Poser be any different?

Sigh.

I'll give this conversation one more attempt before I boot myself out for your insistence in treating me like a complete idiot when it comes to computer matters.

Yes, of COURSE I know they come in executables. I also know that:

-Linux requires you to be savvy anyway because you need to go looking for drivers, alternatives for industry-standard programs, sometimes there's no function that you need and you need to actually program it anyway, even though the CORE is there as a nifty executable (so cool, the car comes with the motor and wheels assembled but you still need to add the seats and cover and glasses and--);

-GIMP or Krita or whatever require you to learn entirely new functions when you're used to things like Photoshop, and chances are that they won't be able to open a .psd file your customer sent you because they used a whatever function only Photoshop has;

-Blender has several different executables other than the "official" one, and if we were going to do that with Poser, imagine this scenario: casual user wants to do a thing in Poser. Someone tells them that Poser doesn't do it, but UltraPoser by TechyRando can do it. Casual user downloads UltraPoser by TechyRando, only to discover that UltraPoser can't render in Superfly, and then casual user goes to bug Renderosity because "Poser is not working" because casual user didn't quite understand that they're using a different version of Poser and then it takes them 3 days and 15 back-and-forth tech support messages before Renderosity finally realizes that Casual User wasn't actually using the official Poser executable.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 9:20AM Fri, 19 July 2019 - #4357457

-Blender has several different executables other than the "official" one, and if we were going to do that with Poser, imagine this scenario: casual user wants to do a thing in Poser. Someone tells them that Poser doesn't do it, but UltraPoser by TechyRando can do it. Casual user downloads UltraPoser by TechyRando, only to discover that UltraPoser can't render in Superfly, and then casual user goes to bug Renderosity because "Poser is not working" because casual user didn't quite understand that they're using a different version of Poser and then it takes them 3 days and 15 back-and-forth tech support messages before Renderosity finally realizes that Casual User wasn't actually using the official Poser executable.

Which is exactly why the first thing Renderosity did with their newly acquired Poser was to eliminate all but ONE version of the software - the Pro version. Tech support is nearly impossible with even 2 versions, much less multiple open source versions.

Which is also why this off topic conversation has more than played itself out in this thread.

LOL, just waiting for somebody to ask for an Android version. LOL. => Poser on the Go.

But strangely enough it exists already. LOL. El Poser 3D and this one Mara3D and this one Magic Poser

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 12:17PM Fri, 19 July 2019 - #4357244

ProtocolZero posted at 4:01PM Wed, 17 July 2019 - #4357230

Right. Because the business-as-usual model has worked so well for Poser up to this point, hasn't it? How many times has Poser been sold now, how many disappointing releases have there been, and how many times have we heard "this could be the end of Poser"?

How many of those times the owners of Poser were a marketplace for products for Poser that has been going for years and years? Oh, right.

Blender and Linux are able to survive and even thrive as FOSS because of a dedicated and enthusiastic community of developers, users, and backers, and I see no reason why Poser wouldn't be able to do the same. Imagine a community with access to the code and the things they would be able to do with it -- features you've wanted to add to Poser for years and now suddenly you could, or things that you've begged them to fix and yet they carry over from version to version.

I imagine a hot mess with this. Imagine the amount of content buyers going confused because a product can't possibly support all the addons and versions of Poser that would come from that.

Blender is made for content creators. It requires someone who's tech-savvy. Poser's model is content-library based, meaning that the bulk of users will be people who only know how to load library content, maybe adjust the poses a bit.

As it stands right now, Bondware/Renderosity are simply the latest buyer to acquire Poser, keeping it alive long enough to release yet another disappointing version that sees the user base shrink even further.

Well, I'll just be here glad that I haven't reached a point to be so pessimistic about everything. I highly doubt Renderosity would give us yet another disappointing version - specially seeing as they're composed of a bunch of people who does use Poser (or used to, at the very least).

In any case, yes, the article that Glitterati linked to. It very much seems to me that they got their heads in the right place.

I actually agree that Poser is the wrong sort of program to go open source. Because of the reasons that Afrodite already mentioned and because I just don't think it has the following to generate developer support. We're pretty niche as software goes....on the surface the amount of users may look like a lot, but when compared to juggernauts like Blender we're a drop in the ocean.

I also have to agree with her about Linux. Personally, I love Linux. I use it a lot. But, it's not for the novice. There are things that can go wrong with it - things that YOU have to fix. Granted, there is lots of info on the web about how to fix this and that, but command line stuff scares a lot of folks, not to mention the fact that a majority of computer users just don't use it. I would LOVE to see all the software I use have a Linux version. It's my dream so that I can tell Microcrap to shove their OS, but one has to be realistic. We're just not there yet. Until Linux is as easy as Windows/IOS there won't be widespread adoption, which, when you think about it, might defeat the entire purpose of Linux. The less you have to do to it, the less you can do WITH it, which is one of Linux' strengths in my mind.

Laurie

Uhm. Wow. Ok. This thread is a bit scary. I mainly skimmed and my eyes still hurt. LOL!

Is there anywhere we can sign up for newsletter notices on updates as we move forward with new progress in the Poserverse? Such as a development blog? I do subscribe to Renderosity's newsletters but I'm in particular interested in the tech side of Poser development. (I saw the link with the news article that has informative comments, thank you for posting that Deecy!, but was looking for something to subscribe to for the future, too.)

Also, could we have some sort of Meet&Greet for the current Poser team, when they are better settled from all of the ongoing turmoil, and if they feel comfortable to do so? I admit I am a bit out of touch with who works with what anymore, and hope to see some familiar faces.

And who will be fixing the ”libraries plug-in failure” for all of us Mac users?

No clue if this have already been suggested :) But have you considered making Poser free like Daz3d? Think that could really help boosting people starting to use it.

AS far as I can tell this is the first time Poser, it’s marketplace, figures, and community forums are under one roof. At this point Bondware is prepared to compete with Daz on it’s own terms. I would think that Bondware was as concerned by it’s dependance on Daz as Daz was when it created Studio. Rendo is a content shop, I would expect them to focus on content and figures for the software because SMs software focus was outdated and content is Rendo’s specialty.

We’re down to two platforms run by two different companies competing directly with each other. IOS vs Android, PC vs Mac, Pepsi vs Coke.

false1 posted at 8:40PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357659

AS far as I can tell this is the first time Poser, it’s marketplace, figures, and community forums are under one roof. At this point Bondware is prepared to compete with Daz on it’s own terms. I would think that Bondware was as concerned by it’s dependance on Daz as Daz was when it created Studio. Rendo is a content shop, I would expect them to focus on content and figures for the software because SMs software focus was outdated and content is Rendo’s specialty.

We’re down to two platforms run by two different companies competing directly with each other. IOS vs Android, PC vs Mac, Pepsi vs Coke.

Not quite. Rendo's already said that they intend to keep supporting the Genesis figures. That's in contrast to what DAZ appears to want. And by that I merely mean that DAZ only supports the Genesis figures and Studio.And there are still other players who have a vested interest in the market, Hivewire, Renderotica, CG Bytes, and other smaller outlets.

EClark1894 posted at 9:26PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357666

false1 posted at 8:40PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357659

AS far as I can tell this is the first time Poser, it’s marketplace, figures, and community forums are under one roof. At this point Bondware is prepared to compete with Daz on it’s own terms. I would think that Bondware was as concerned by it’s dependance on Daz as Daz was when it created Studio. Rendo is a content shop, I would expect them to focus on content and figures for the software because SMs software focus was outdated and content is Rendo’s specialty.

We’re down to two platforms run by two different companies competing directly with each other. IOS vs Android, PC vs Mac, Pepsi vs Coke.

Not quite. Rendo's already said that they intend to keep supporting the Genesis figures. That's in contrast to what DAZ appears to want. And by that I merely mean that DAZ only supports the Genesis figures and Studio.And there are still other players who have a vested interest in the market, Hivewire, Renderotica, CG Bytes, and other smaller outlets.

What companies say they’ll do and what they actually do can be two different things. Hivewire recently dropped products that didn’t support its own IP. Rendo will need to push it’s platform through content which puts it in competition with Daz.

. OMG! LOL!

Forgive me, folks, but I've been so buried in a project since the last week of May, that I hadn't been opening my forum notices.

Then, today, when going to Smith-Micro's website to download an upgrade to the new workstation I recently built, I saw no listing for Poser there and freaked.

Imagine my delight to learn about Renderosity's acquistion of the software. This is good news--very good news. And my expectations are high.

But Jenn, where do I look for support now and will Renderosity offer support for the previous version, Poser Pro 2014, which I still use the most? I'm having an installation issue on the new workstation. .

galaxiefilm posted at 4:51AM Mon, 22 July 2019 - #4357684

. OMG! LOL!

Forgive me, folks, but I've been so buried in a project since the last week of May, that I hadn't been opening my forum notices.

Then, today, when going to Smith-Micro's website to download an upgrade to the new workstation I recently built, I saw no listing for Poser there and freaked.

Imagine my delight to learn about Renderosity's acquistion of the software. This is good news--very good news. And my expectations are high.

But Jenn, where do I look for support now and will Renderosity offer support for the previous version, Poser Pro 2014, which I still use the most? I'm having an installation issue on the new workstation. .

Until they get the support system in place, Jenn has asked that support requests be emailed to store@renderosity.com

DAZ is a about as mercenary as it gets. The reason it dropped new Poser content is that it wasn't selling. The same reason content for DAZ studio started crowding out new Poser content here. Hopefully Rendo will turn this situation around. If it does, my bet is you'll start seeing new content for Poser over at DAZ. It's also the same reason Rendo is not dropping its new DAZ content section. These guys are in the business of selling content. They are going to make whatever sells.

Thank you for the response, Glitterati3D.

false1 posted at 3:26AM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357659

We’re down to two platforms run by two different companies competing directly with each other. IOS vs Android, PC vs Mac, Pepsi vs Coke

While it is certainly true that there are two different companies with platforms in obvious competition with each other, they are not the only game in town. I'm pretty sure iClone has attracted a fair share of its users from the Poser and D|S camps, and of the three seems to me the most forward looking one. It might not appeal to the pin-up crowd but iClone's animation capabilities are well beyond Poser and Studio.

iClone is Windows only, otherwise I'd have a look at it.

Very happy to see Poser having found a good home with Renderosity! Just out of curiosity, did the purchase of Poser from Smith Micro also by some oddball chance include the rights to (long ago defunct) Amapi? Way back when I had often wondered what could have been if Poser, Amapi and Carrara had all existed under one development roof. Anyhoot, Poser and Renderosity is a great fit! Looking forward to seeing what this next chapter of Poser will bring.

If my memory serves me correctly, shannonhoppe, Amapi was included with Carrara 1 when Eovia took it over. So, I would presume that Amapi is now with DAZ and probably morphed into HEXAGON. And, being with DAZ, it would see no development at all, of course. Thank heavens, Poser went to Rendo.

galaxiefilm posted at 2:14PM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357842

If my memory serves me correctly, shannonhoppe, Amapi was included with Carrara 1 when Eovia took it over. So, I would presume that Amapi is now with DAZ and probably morphed into HEXAGON. And, being with DAZ, it would see no development at all, of course. Thank heavens, Poser went to Rendo.

Hexagon (1) was published by Eovia as a modeller successor to Amapi, while they also had Amapi Pro (I think) with additional features. eFrontier bought Amapi Pro (or whatever it was called) but I don't think they did anything beyond releasing the version that Eovia had, presumably, been working on.

RHaseltine posted at 3:42PM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357847

galaxiefilm posted at 2:14PM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357842

If my memory serves me correctly, shannonhoppe, Amapi was included with Carrara 1 when Eovia took it over. So, I would presume that Amapi is now with DAZ and probably morphed into HEXAGON. And, being with DAZ, it would see no development at all, of course. Thank heavens, Poser went to Rendo.

Hexagon (1) was published by Eovia as a modeller successor to Amapi, while they also had Amapi Pro (I think) with additional features. eFrontier bought Amapi Pro (or whatever it was called) but I don't think they did anything beyond releasing the version that Eovia had, presumably, been working on.

EDIT: Oh now this is interesting, I just found something on Wikipedia about it being developed by Smith Micro. Hmmm .... that's weird. But SM bought it in 2008, and it looks like it remained at version 7.5 and development didn't continue.

Deecey posted at 3:46PM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357852

RHaseltine posted at 3:42PM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357847

galaxiefilm posted at 2:14PM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357842

If my memory serves me correctly, shannonhoppe, Amapi was included with Carrara 1 when Eovia took it over. So, I would presume that Amapi is now with DAZ and probably morphed into HEXAGON. And, being with DAZ, it would see no development at all, of course. Thank heavens, Poser went to Rendo.

Hexagon (1) was published by Eovia as a modeller successor to Amapi, while they also had Amapi Pro (I think) with additional features. eFrontier bought Amapi Pro (or whatever it was called) but I don't think they did anything beyond releasing the version that Eovia had, presumably, been working on.

EDIT: Oh now this is interesting, I just found something on Wikipedia about it being developed by Smith Micro. Hmmm .... that's weird.

I read that too. It said, Smith Micro released one version in 2007 and then stopped development. It's now defunct, so most likely, SM didn't sell it to Bondware.

Thanks for the clarifications on all that, folks!

Pretty amazing evolution and convolutions when these things get sold & passed around, eh?

Whatever happened to Kai Krause? I always loved his GUI designs!

Think it was back in 2006-ish that I purchased a combo deal from eFrontier for Shade 8 Standard and Amapi Pro 7.5. Loved the idea of there being a potential "unified suite" someday of Poserized tools. Reason I was curious about what happened to Amapi rights ownership after SmithMicro was for possible future enhancements within Poser. Whilst the tools from Hexagon were largely incorporated into Carrara, weren't the foundations of the Hexagon tools born from Amapi? Again tho, this was all just out of curiosity and daydreaming. If the rights for the defunct Amapi were just sitting at SmithMicro collecting dust then maybe there could be a collection of code goodies available on the cheap. Would have been a nice value add on the Poser purchase if SmithMicro would have rolled the Amapi rights in with the deal. But eh, enough daydreaming. Back to creating :)

shannonhoppe posted at 7:13PM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357858

Think it was back in 2006-ish that I purchased a combo deal from eFrontier for Shade 8 Standard and Amapi Pro 7.5. Loved the idea of there being a potential "unified suite" someday of Poserized tools. Reason I was curious about what happened to Amapi rights ownership after SmithMicro was for possible future enhancements within Poser. Whilst the tools from Hexagon were largely incorporated into Carrara, weren't the foundations of the Hexagon tools born from Amapi? Again tho, this was all just out of curiosity and daydreaming. If the rights for the defunct Amapi were just sitting at SmithMicro collecting dust then maybe there could be a collection of code goodies available on the cheap. Would have been a nice value add on the Poser purchase if SmithMicro would have rolled the Amapi rights in with the deal. But eh, enough daydreaming. Back to creating :)

I don't think it would have been a value add. First, they haven't developed it for almost 12 years, It' dead. Second, Blender is a much better fit, and it's still being developed and it's free. Plus, someone else is footing the bill. I never liked Amapi anyway. I believe my first run in with it was it was in French, a language of which I speak maybe five words. Plus it was a nurbs modeler. I hate nurbs.

EClark1894 posted at 4:02PM Thu, 25 July 2019 - #4357866

Blender is a much better fit, and it's still being developed and it's free. Plus, someone else is footing the bill.

You could say the same thing about Poser...

There is very little that Poser offers, that Blender does not already have.

shvrdavid posted at 12:08PM Fri, 26 July 2019 - #4358041

EClark1894 posted at 4:02PM Thu, 25 July 2019 - #4357866

Blender is a much better fit, and it's still being developed and it's free. Plus, someone else is footing the bill.

You could say the same thing about Poser...

There is very little that Poser offers, that Blender does not already have.

Well, ease of use comes to mind if you don't create content. A lot of us only want to tell stories or make pretty pictures, we don't want to get into the mechanics of making things. Too many options you're not going to use makes things overly complicated. To give an example, if a person tells me they only want to resize pictures I don't point them to either GIMP or Photoshop because while both programs can do that, they are overkill for what the person wants to get done.

FlagonsWorkshop posted at 3:16PM Fri, 26 July 2019 - #4358099

shvrdavid posted at 12:08PM Fri, 26 July 2019 - #4358041

EClark1894 posted at 4:02PM Thu, 25 July 2019 - #4357866

Blender is a much better fit, and it's still being developed and it's free. Plus, someone else is footing the bill.

You could say the same thing about Poser...

There is very little that Poser offers, that Blender does not already have.

Well, ease of use comes to mind if you don't create content. A lot of us only want to tell stories or make pretty pictures, we don't want to get into the mechanics of making things. Too many options you're not going to use makes things overly complicated. To give an example, if a person tells me they only want to resize pictures I don't point them to either GIMP or Photoshop because while both programs can do that, they are overkill for what the person wants to get done.

I wasn't suggesting that Blender do either one of those things, or that it replace Poser. I don't know where or why shvrdavid responded as if I were. I was talking about my take on Amapi.

I realize what you were talking about Earl. I was only making a point. I have Amapi somewhere, and yes, basically nothing has been done with it in years.

As far as ease of use that Flagons mentioned, that is a point to consider. Blender is not known for point and click. Once you use it a lot and have file saves and libraries set up, it basically is as far as importing a figure, scene stuff, pose and render. I am still not convinced that most users of Poser just load, pose, and render thou. Sure, they may have when they first started. But like any software once you learn it and continue to use it, you learn more about it over time. That's how I did it anyway. I went from NVIATWAS to knowing Poser very well, creating content, modding stuff, testing it, etc.

I am not suggesting that Poser just be dropped thou. I want Rendo/Bondware to make it the best it has ever been. And yes, I will continue to use all the other software I use as well.

The other side of my point is this. Many people have said that Blender is the fastest developed 3D software out there. It has huge backing, an enormous community, content, etc.

Poser needs time and money.... It has the other stuff already. Content, community, etc. Poser has also lost a lot over the years. Vendors, users, content that basically vanished, forums that just disappeared, etc. Yes there can be a bazillions reasons for all of that, but that's the way it is. Many of us have been around to see it happen over and over.

Making the next version of Poser the best that it can be will be a great start in "stopping the bleeding", so to speak. No it wont stop all of it, but it will stop some of it. To me, the next version needs to be awesome. Or the cycle will just repeat, again....

I don't want to see that happen, again....

Deecey posted at 8:56AM Sat, 27 July 2019 - #4357852

RHaseltine posted at 3:42PM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357847

galaxiefilm posted at 2:14PM Tue, 23 July 2019 - #4357842

If my memory serves me correctly, shannonhoppe, Amapi was included with Carrara 1 when Eovia took it over. So, I would presume that Amapi is now with DAZ and probably morphed into HEXAGON. And, being with DAZ, it would see no development at all, of course. Thank heavens, Poser went to Rendo.

Hexagon (1) was published by Eovia as a modeller successor to Amapi, while they also had Amapi Pro (I think) with additional features. eFrontier bought Amapi Pro (or whatever it was called) but I don't think they did anything beyond releasing the version that Eovia had, presumably, been working on.

EDIT: Oh now this is interesting, I just found something on Wikipedia about it being developed by Smith Micro. Hmmm .... that's weird. But SM bought it in 2008, and it looks like it remained at version 7.5 and development didn't continue.

Eovia actually had a more or less fully functional Amapi 8.0 in Beta that was discontinued when SM bought the program.

shvrdavid posted at 6:08AM Sat, 27 July 2019 - #4358120

I realize what you were talking about Earl. I was only making a point. I have Amapi somewhere, and yes, basically nothing has been done with it in years.

As far as ease of use that Flagons mentioned, that is a point to consider. Blender is not known for point and click. Once you use it a lot and have file saves and libraries set up, it basically is as far as importing a figure, scene stuff, pose and render. I am still not convinced that most users of Poser just load, pose, and render thou. Sure, they may have when they first started. But like any software once you learn it and continue to use it, you learn more about it over time. That's how I did it anyway. I went from NVIATWAS to knowing Poser very well, creating content, modding stuff, testing it, etc.

I am not suggesting that Poser just be dropped thou. I want Rendo/Bondware to make it the best it has ever been. And yes, I will continue to use all the other software I use as well.

The other side of my point is this. Many people have said that Blender is the fastest developed 3D software out there. It has huge backing, an enormous community, content, etc.

Poser needs time and money.... It has the other stuff already. Content, community, etc. Poser has also lost a lot over the years. Vendors, users, content that basically vanished, forums that just disappeared, etc. Yes there can be a bazillions reasons for all of that, but that's the way it is. Many of us have been around to see it happen over and over.

Making the next version of Poser the best that it can be will be a great start in "stopping the bleeding", so to speak. No it wont stop all of it, but it will stop some of it. To me, the next version needs to be awesome. Or the cycle will just repeat, again....

I don't want to see that happen, again....

I still don't get your point. You still, to me anyway, sound as if I were suggesting replacing Poser with Blender, when my comparison was between Blender and Amapi. Now maybe it's because for the past eight or nine years, I've been working almost exclusively in Blender as far as creating content for Poser, but Blender is a better fit for that than Amapi.

I would have only one suggestion for Bondware going forward when it comes to Poser. I really think that if they want to not only compete with DAZ but in some ways surpass them is to adopt FBX or Collada as the file format going forward. I suggest a more open operating environment in the sense that those standards make all sorts of possibilities. Adopting FBX as the standard file format going forward would expand the Poser market to an unprecedented degree. Imagine not having to worry about converting this or that --just being able to import it and go! Some of my greatest frustrations as a hobbyist is that I spend a lot more time converting this or that when I should be animating and rendering. I kept up with Poser to 2014 but I set it aside because it didn't fit what I wanted to do anymore. There is one more thing that really made me let go of Poser and it was the dial size in the viewscreen. I'm getting older now and my eyes aren't what they used to be. Because you can't resize the interface elements, I would end up getting headaches trying to work in it. I'm not opposed to going back to Poser but I don't want to step back into the frustrations of the past 10 years.

Before I attempt to write a mini-essay, I'd like to ask 'is this thread being monitored by Bondware for ideas and suggestions?

Grimhilda posted at 7:07PM Wed, 31 July 2019 - #4358460

Before I attempt to write a mini-essay, I'd like to ask 'is this thread being monitored by Bondware for ideas and suggestions?

Directly from the CEO interview:

What are the short-term plans for Poser?

From now thru mid-October, we are hyper-focused on putting out a bridge-release that adapts Poser to Bondware's license management system, product download system, etc.

In parallel, we are adding to our dev team, creating a beta testing team and seeking advice from previous Poser team members, contributors and community members to construct a product roadmap for the future.

After mid-October, we will begin to engage the community on potential product roadmap and begin to roll out incremental improvements.

https://www.renderosity.com/whats-next-for-poser-a-q-a-with-bondware-ceo-tim-choate-cms-21578

Thanks, Glitterat3d, for your answer to my question.

Yesterday I had a ton of clear thoughts about what I'd like to see done to Poser but, right now, my brain isn't focussed. This (as is the other discussion on a wish list for Poser) is a fascinating read. It also serves to show me how few of Poser's features I really know about. As well as Poser I mainly use Carrara and Iclone with Hexagon and I try 3dCoat occasionally.

There is nothing tantalising, I can assure you, that I'm holding back on but I'll leave my 'essay' for a later date. Just one thought, though. There was a time when I recall the basic 'VUE' software being released with different content themes (such as fairytale, I think). Poser could be released in similar content editions: Sci-Fi, Fairytale, Toon, Children's, Medieval, Western, Steampunk, Modern Everyday, etc. The content packages would be assembled from existing content plus commissioned work. The content creators, currently, are lone operators, as far as I can tell. Why not invite them to team up in creating official packages? Customers could get one base content package of choice and be able to buy others later - as a whole or bit-by-bit.

Professional Mocap files should start to be provided for sale also. (OK I'm re-inventing Iclone now, but why not?)

Lots of legal issues would need to be addressed with content developers but there are whole sweeps of history that could be organised into themes for sale.

So, there's a mini-essay!

Grimhilda posted at 9:49PM Wed, 31 July 2019 - #4358466

Thanks, Glitterat3d, for your answer to my question.

Yesterday I had a ton of clear thoughts about what I'd like to see done to Poser but, right now, my brain isn't focussed. This (as is the other discussion on a wish list for Poser) is a fascinating read. It also serves to show me how few of Poser's features I really know about. As well as Poser I mainly use Carrara and Iclone with Hexagon and I try 3dCoat occasionally.

There is nothing tantalising, I can assure you, that I'm holding back on but I'll leave my 'essay' for a later date. Just one thought, though. There was a time when I recall the basic 'VUE' software being released with different content themes (such as fairytale, I think). Poser could be released in similar content editions: Sci-Fi, Fairytale, Toon, Children's, Medieval, Western, Steampunk, Modern Everyday, etc. The content packages would be assembled from existing content plus commissioned work. The content creators, currently, are lone operators, as far as I can tell. Why not invite them to team up in creating official packages? Customers could get one base content package of choice and be able to buy others later - as a whole or bit-by-bit.

Professional Mocap files should start to be provided for sale also. (OK I'm re-inventing Iclone now, but why not?)

Lots of legal issues would need to be addressed with content developers but there are whole sweeps of history that could be organised into themes for sale.

So, there's a mini-essay!

Poser is very versatile, so any version should be able to produce the genres you name. And there's nothing to prevent creators from teaming up and collaborating to produce those genres. It's a good idea.

will2power posted at 11:34AM Thu, 01 August 2019 - #4358440

I would have only one suggestion for Bondware going forward when it comes to Poser. I really think that if they want to not only compete with DAZ but in some ways surpass them is to adopt FBX or Collada as the file format going forward. I suggest a more open operating environment in the sense that those standards make all sorts of possibilities. Adopting FBX as the standard file format going forward would expand the Poser market to an unprecedented degree. Imagine not having to worry about converting this or that --just being able to import it and go! Some of my greatest frustrations as a hobbyist is that I spend a lot more time converting this or that when I should be animating and rendering. I kept up with Poser to 2014 but I set it aside because it didn't fit what I wanted to do anymore. There is one more thing that really made me let go of Poser and it was the dial size in the viewscreen. I'm getting older now and my eyes aren't what they used to be. Because you can't resize the interface elements, I would end up getting headaches trying to work in it. I'm not opposed to going back to Poser but I don't want to step back into the frustrations of the past 10 years.

Poser 11 Pro has FBX and Collada support (Import/Export).

will2power posted at 3:12AM Thu, 01 August 2019 - #4358440

I would have only one suggestion for Bondware going forward when it comes to Poser. I really think that if they want to not only compete with DAZ but in some ways surpass them is to adopt FBX or Collada as the file format going forward. I suggest a more open operating environment in the sense that those standards make all sorts of possibilities. Adopting FBX as the standard file format going forward would expand the Poser market to an unprecedented degree. Imagine not having to worry about converting this or that --just being able to import it and go! Some of my greatest frustrations as a hobbyist is that I spend a lot more time converting this or that when I should be animating and rendering. I kept up with Poser to 2014 but I set it aside because it didn't fit what I wanted to do anymore. There is one more thing that really made me let go of Poser and it was the dial size in the viewscreen. I'm getting older now and my eyes aren't what they used to be. Because you can't resize the interface elements, I would end up getting headaches trying to work in it. I'm not opposed to going back to Poser but I don't want to step back into the frustrations of the past 10 years.

Poser has had FBX and Collada export for a while now, and the Game Dev mini upgrade from PP2014 added more support for FBX import/export, as well as geometry reduction, etc. Also, Poser 11 Pro (there is no more Poser 11) UI is scalable.

I'm not talking about importing and exporting. Poser's native file format is still CR2. I'm not talking about importing and exporting in the way that we do it now. I'm talking about the issues that come with that import export when you're converting to Poser's native format. Poser has import/export but it's nowhere near perfect. I'm talking about adopting it as a native file format INSTEAD of importing/exporting, replacing the CR2 as the standard file format --something akin to what DAZ did when they converted to .duf from it's old format.