So I'm looking at my product library over at Daz and I'm curious about what's the difference between the Genesis versions? Which is the most outlandishly morphable? Best topology? Best bending? So far I'm thinking that for cutesy and pin up type stuff Genesis 3 looks the best. Can I create custom morphs externally in mudbox and easily apply them to the genesis figures? I realize that's a load of random questions but humor a Genesis newbie and feel free to ramble on the topic...

Thanks

I should caveat that I've yet to even install DS but some of those Genesis characters are so damn cute that I know it's only a matter of time...

(To be honest the Daz installer gives me the creeps)

Warning Ramble ahead

As a person whom I know is a fellow content creator, You options are effectively unlimited for custom morphs and clothing for any generation of Genesis.

From a sheer technical perspective the Genesis one was a unisex base figure that can be effctively morphed into males /female creatures aliens, (See attached pic of My recent future Military clothing sets on a genesis one male & female)

Note: genesis one by DEFAULT can wear ALL of your old Daz V4 /M4 clothing and skins via UV switching and Autofit.

Genesis two was split into male and female bases with a slightly higher polycount IIRC but also can wear ALL of your old Daz V4 /M4 clothing and skins via UV switching and Autofit.

Genesis 3 broke the native backward compatibility with V4/M4 content and added a Facial bone cluster for bone based facial expression and added new "twist bones" to each limb which made them incompatible what All previous Poser/Daz Character animation Data (BVH,aniblock) and we saw much more of the proprietary HD morphs being offered.

It also had a lower poly pure quad mesh supposedly for Game dev but Daz has failed miserably in the Game dev content market .

This breaking of native compatibility with previous content, helped Daz and the PA's Sell more content as most had no choice but to buy the new stuff unless you were among us who possessed content creation skills thus libertated from the Daz content hamster wheel.?

Genesis 8 is just Genesis 3.2 rebranded & synically marketed with Orwellian doublespeak as "the most backwards compatible Genesis ever" when in truth it was the LEAST backward compatible Genesis ever.? with a default "A pose" instead of the "T-pose"

Some claim the A-pose make for easier cothing development but that is a matter of Debate IMHO.

I personally recently used the Paid plugin 'GENX2" to move ALL of my Mill4 legacy& custom Character shapes BACKWARDS to the original genesis one for optimal compatibilty with Iclone Facial animation system.

I only use Daz studio for Character creation /cloth rigging As I have Dropped Daz studio from the animation side of my pipeline because of Daz's delusional state of self denial about thier rubbish "foot pinning" system being fobbed off as an IK solver for Character animation.?

While Genesis 2 did separate into a male and female they where still unimesh figures, built from the female mesh. Genesis 3 and 8 gave the male and female their own meshes. The change to the A pose was supposedly to better work with the Dforce clothe simulator they where/are developing.

Which genesis version has the highest poly count at base resolution?

Jeez. I'm reading old forum posts over at daz about non PAs not being given access to the tools to create HD morphs for Genesis... not really sure that level of control over user customization or creativity is very appealing to me. Seems like the Genesis meshes are pretty low poly (although very nicely modeled), in particular in the face region. I personally don't mind sculpting morphs for medium res meshes but being locked out of the options by design and options being for only a select few is distasteful.

I'm having similar misgivings about Poser's new La Femme figure. You can only create subdivision morphs for La Femme if you utilize either Poser's frankly primitive morph brush or via goZ to Zbrush. I use Mudbox or Blender for sculpting (neither of which are lacking in professional features) so in my case I'm relegated to only being able to work with La Femme's base mesh, which is medium res.

EldritchCellar posted at 4:50PM Thu, 07 May 2020 - #4388467

Which genesis version has the highest >poly count at base resolution?

Accoording to the decimator plugin G1=37,744

G2=42,162

G3FEMALE=34,000

G8FEMALE= 32,440

G8MALE=33,096

There's certainly no end to content available for the genesis figures that's for sure. I suppose if I really wanted to I could simply pose Genesis in DS and export as a static .obj for further tweaking, textures, and render in apps other than DS...

Daz's view is that their HD morph tech should only be available to people who will create and sell through their store.?

Also the Dforce version of their spline based hair system is also only restricted to Daz PA's so no home spun wind blowing hair for the unwashed masses or rosity merchants selling Daz content over here.?

I thought Poser 11 had a way to create HD morphs for the poser natives "Paul & pauline.?

There exists a plug in called Diffeomorphic that imports Genesis figures directly into blender from a daz content library with subD retained.

And of course you could FBX to blender, Maya etc. https://youtu.be/7hSW7H8RVjY

Nope. Unless you are exporting from poser directly into Zbrush via goZ (or doing it in scene and generating said morphs via the "morph tool") you cannot create subdivision morphs for Poser figures. I've tried various combinations of exporting and importing to find a workaround to no avail.

Now I've heard there is a Blender workaround, mentioned frequently in old posts by a forum member named Tony Vilters. It's very convoluted by all indications. Unfortunately this method disappeared when all traces of Vilters disappeared from the Poserverse, including the YouTube tutorials that described this process.

Anyway. I've got to send my computer in to hp under warrenty to replace a faulty fan so I'm going to be without my machine for a few days, otherwise I'd just DL and install DS and have a look at the various versions of Genesis myself. And invariably start buying stuff lol. Genesis 2 looks to be the version I'll start experimenting with looks like...

Does Diffeomorphic facilitate the creation of subdivision level morphs that will work when applied back in DS?

Unless that's the case, its virtually no different from my perspective than exporting genesis as a static obj. I don't do animation stuff.

EldritchCellar posted at 6:29PM Thu, 07 May 2020 - #4388496

Unless that's the case, its virtually no different from my perspective than exporting genesis as a static obj. I don't >do animation stuff.

No... It will import your Daz figure/ scene with whatever level of sudD you had applied. you will have a posable Genesis in a Blender with Iray mats converted to cycles nodes.

But NOT the HD levels that only function inside Daz Studio.

Those will never be available to non PA, s. ?

Decimator triangulates the mesh so its numbers are twice the poly count.

Oh. That's interesting.

I've lately started wondering why I go through the various frustrations that accompany using Poser (and I suppose the same holds true for DS), and just don't switch completely to entirely self made models in environments such as Blender offers. Let's face it, Blender stomps all over Poser and DS in terms of power, freedom, and form. Anyone who would argue otherwise is delusional.

I guess the bottom line is that I like using and making stuff for pre built figures. I also enjoy collecting different artist's models and figures. Though I've created Poser figures of my own, and very much enjoy modeling and texturing, I just don't have the skill, time, or even the desire to create anything like some of the premiere human figures that are readily available. Not to mention all the peripheral content that accompanies all that... I think time is the biggest factor. Easier and just as pleasing to use a commercial figure platform to expound creatively from, and the hobbiest/collector aspect which for me is a big factor. Luckily all the iterations of genesis content is readily available should I choose to spend my disposable income on such.

Thanks for all the input Wolf

jestmart posted at 8:15PM Thu, 07 May 2020 - #4388501

Decimator triangulates the mesh so its numbers are twice the poly count.

I can easily increase subdivision levels for models in at least 3 apps I use, including poser. I don't understand. Unless I can subdivide genesis, export it to a sculpting app and create custom morphs, and apply those subdivision level morphs to a corresponding resolution level genesis figure in scene successfully its moot. Anything else is simply subdividing a static mesh.

HD morphs are no biggie though. I'm just nitpicking. I can pose any figure and export it as a static mesh, subdivide, and sculpt with tangent symmetry in Mudbox. It let's you paint and sculpt symmetrically on asymmetrical models. It's just a little extra work. From my experience subdivision doesn't wreak that much havoc on UVs. In any case fixable.

jestmart posted at 7:45PM Thu, 07 May 2020 - #4388501

Decimator triangulates the mesh so >its numbers are twice the poly count

It reports your base polycount BEFORE decimation with the slider at 100%.

That decimator plugin is a blatant rip off. You can do the same thing in wings3d, essentially, for free. I'm sure blender too. I'd have to look. Just any old archaic modeler has a decimate feature. Including Carrara's modeler.

Y'know, I used to refer to Daz, over on the Poser Forum, as the Death Star lol.

Let's face it, Blender stomps all over Poser and DS in terms of power, freedom, and form. Anyone who would argue otherwise >is delusional.

Quite true. However with power comes complexity.

Most poser/DS users will not step out of their comfort bubble.

But that's fine.

To each their own. ?

Those other decimators will result in Destroyed weighting/rigging. ?

The DS plugin retains the rigging as does the poser poly reducer( I assume)

Oh. I see. Guess I didn't read closely enough. I can see some uses for that. Still, I'd save the hundred bucks, compose my scene, export the figures as "props", decimate, import lower poly surrogates to repopulate, copy materials/textures to surrogates, render. That doesn't account for animation purposes though.

I've never used Poser's reduce polygons tool, but yeah it retains the proper groups/skinning from what I understand. I still think that plugin is a bit of gouging on Daz's part.

As an aside, have you ever tried sculpting on any triangulated low poly game meshes? I did just recently with Skyrim meshes for modding and what a nightmare. We're spoiled with our high poly meshes. One false tap of the smooth brush to a skyrim mouth? Toast.

Indeed sculpting on any triangulated mesh is an exercise in masochistic futility, .?

hence the popularity of retopo tools in recent years.

Looking forward to the new Zbrush styled multi-res polygon tools coming in 2.9.?

BTW we get 2.83 this summer and then jump straight to 2.9 by the winter ,which is already out in alpha.

To be honest my skill set is at the point where I have considered modeling my own figures and rigging them for animation in Blender.?

I already make my own environments and clothing and use Facegen and custom sculpting/dial spinning to move my Characters far away from the Daz defaults.

But as an animated filmmaker I, am too eager to just get started with creating the action and my Customized daz figures ( converted to Iclone speaking, realtime Avatars)

are just so convenient although in reality Daz inc. could dissappear from the planet tommorrow, and I could go the rest of my creative life with DS 4.12 and supporting my current Genesis clan myself with new content indefinately. ?

EldritchCellar posted at 6:47AM Fri, 08 May 2020 - #4388475

Jeez. I'm reading old forum posts over at daz about non PAs not being given access to the tools to create HD morphs for Genesis... not really sure that level of control over user customization or creativity is very appealing to me. Seems like the Genesis meshes are pretty low poly (although very nicely modeled), in particular in the face region. I personally don't mind sculpting morphs for medium res meshes but being locked out of the options by design and options being for only a select few is distasteful.

The biggest shift in using any low poly mesh is learning how to work with a ow poly mesh. You would start by creating your shape in it's base resolution then when you are done, you create your details. In Genesis 1 and 2 there was no such thing as an HD morphs so you would need to create a normal map for those details. But like a normal map, those details don't really exist in HD morphs; thus it's just different method of creating a detail pass, with some caveats added which is why the tool is in-house for PAs. So no you don't need that HD method to make details on your morphs, just subdvide, export and sculpt in your program of choice, then create the normal map. So even if you are a PA, you would still continue to make a normal map for your character, especially if you want it exported to another program.

So how many polys a figure has is not really that important as how you're able to sculpt a base form on it.

Also everything in DS or any other program revolves about the base mesh, not any subdivided version. So you would make clothing, and morphs against a unsubdivided mesh.

Then the version of genesis depend on what you want to do. I've been working with genesis since the first version and each version has different set of strengths. Really the only reason to use Genesis 1 if you're creating creatures that need both a male and female. Making female clothing was difficult as you had to build on the androgynous shape and try to model in the fit for the various characters with the breasts. Again, if you wanted clothing for both genders if may be easier than doing two sets of clothing, but you would definitely struggle through making fits for all the female characters. You'll notice that clothing for that generation wasn't very detailed because you basically had to make two sets of clothing (one with breasts and one without) then try to fit it to the female character shapes without warping things such as buttons. Also add in that the characters didn't end up truly male or female with dead eye expressions. So out of the generations, genesis 1 has the worst looking human characters including any that you tried to import. Those two reasons were why the genders were split for Genesis 2.

Genesis 3 and 8 changed the weight map method to an industry standard to it can be exported to other programs better. Also because of the changes, JCMs are used more for bending. (When you are making clothing there should be a button in the parameters to turn off the jcms). Also by then the tools have changed to make it easier to do jcms for bending and also revert parts of morphs and split them. Genesis 8 has a more diverse set of morphs including more than one black male character and hindu characters as well. That and the changing of the starting poses are the major changes between the generations.

The version you want to use is a matter of taste, but really the biggest reason I use genesis is that I'm able to make full body custom morphs and they're able to fit the clothing for that generation easily without the clothing maker making any fits for it. That means (especially since the majority of my characters are male) I can create, short tall, thin, fat and teen characters without contacting vendors to see if they can make a clothing fit for it, which only happen one time for a set that used to be on sale here. So I spend time playing with sculpting different shapes or adding modifications to existing one, creating any JCMs for bending with that shape and I'm ready to render.

I think that the peoples obsession with the PA only HD tool is mostly the "Forbidden fruit" syndrome.

Many of the most vocal complainants ,in the official Daz forums, have never posted any evidence that they are actually content creators generating custom morphs.?

As person who never renders in Daz studio and alway exports to an engine suited for animation ,(EEVEE these days),

I need normal maps far more than any HD feature restricted to Daz studio.

I am now confused though, if there were "no such thing" as HD morphs for Genesis 2 how are these " HD Aging morphs" created and visible in open GL not rendered as a normal map needs to be ( See attached pic)

lastly, I have often read it was more difficult to model to the Androgenous shape and anticipate the breast deformations.

Why not dial in a base female shape with genesis-1,export and model to that shape and use current or morphed shape option on the target side of the transfer utility dialog??

I'AM TELLING YOU THE NUMBERS DECIMATOR IS REPORT ARE TWICE THE ACTUAL POLYGON COUNT!

I stand corrected. ?

Blender confirms your data.

One wonders why a polygon reduction tool would not provide an accurate account of your starting face count for reference. ?

wolf359 posted at 2:11PM Fri, 08 May 2020 - #4388540

I am now confused though, if there were "no such thing" as HD morphs for Genesis 2 how are these " HD Aging morphs" created and visible in open GL not rendered as a normal map needs to be

HD was at the end of Genesis 2 and the beginning of 3. But the point was, you didn't create your initial morph on a high poly mesh, it's always been the base mesh and that continues to be the case.

@Male_M3dia

I agree that global changes to forms are best sculpted on a medium resolution mesh. I actually morph at medium res most of the time. It's really no issue for me to generate higher resolution displacement maps for high frequency detail, and yes I'll more than likely be rendering outside of DS.

I'm looking specifically at Genesis 2 and Genesis 8 females for their commercial characters, that's the draw. But I'm also interested in adding my own custom touches. If I do any rendering in Poser of the Genesis females it'll be as static meshes with materials suited to that environment. Ditto with Blender. I imagine over time I'll pick up more comfort level within DS.

Right now I'm not interested in DS as anything other than a way to pose and manipulate the genesis models as a first step on a path to other software. At the moment I've been working here and there on an unusual morph set for Poser's La Femme figure, who's sorely lacking in that department. Like Genesis, La Femme is medium res. With either La Femme and, I suppose, Genesis it would sometimes be nice to not rely so much on maps to drive certain details but I guess that's just the way it is now.

In any case the wealth of commercial character sets, skins, and peripherals that are available for Genesis is just too much to ignore (not to mention some of my favorite character artist's are PAs over at Daz and create said content)...

Anyway, thanks for your input.