Some of you may recall there was a great product sold here with vascularity maps AND a Python script to apply them a few years ago. It was called 'Vascularity of Poser' and it was offered for V4 and M4.

Well, the product worked until the Python version was updated in P12, and now it doesn't, of course. And I (and am sure many others) used it heavily. The vendors who made it no longer sell here.

My question is: is there a layman's way of using those maps to apply without the script? Or is there a way to update the script so it works? I heard many to say 'it's just the compiler', but I don't understand what that means, let alone do something about it.

Bonus: are there vendors who are interested in producing this for newer figures?

There are a few scripts like that that worked well in earlier versions but stopped.

Many thanks in advance for any advice.

I have this product and I had started to investigate how to use it without python.
Here's what I've till now: a compound to be used whenever I want it:

Here's how I'm using it

Interesting! So you save that compound node as a material to add, or... how are you using it? Compounds confuzzle me, lol.

@ Y-Phil: is it your intention to connect the displacement to the volume channel or is that an error on your part?

It looks interesting and worth a try.  I have been meaning to visit this issue for quite some time.

Rhia474 posted at 8:15 AM Tue, 3 October 2023 - #4475733

Interesting! So you save that compound node as a material to add, or... how are you using it? Compounds confuzzle me, lol.

Example: in the blue square: what I want to hide, so that I can re-use it later elsewhere

Once the right nodes are selected: right-click somewhere outside any node preview:

And every link from that group outside the group are automatically setup as outputs or inputs, and Poser recreate those links from the compound node

Once inside the compound node, if you would like to have one of the inputs (or of the outputs) at your disposal from outside: drag it:

So that from this:

You get this:

hborre posted at 8:28 AM Tue, 3 October 2023 - #4475734

@ Y-Phil: is it your intention to connect the displacement to the volume channel or is that an error on your part?

It looks interesting and worth a try.  I have been meaning to visit this issue for quite some time.

This works very nicely.  I've done some node modifications and have been testing.  However, the face vein displacement map shows a huge discrepancy between the right and left sides of the face.  Displacement looks normal on the left side of the face, but the right side shows receding vein lines as opposed to elevated.  I would show images but it's rather late at night here.  If someone can verify what I'm seeing then there is a problem with the way the map was created.

Also, see the topic "Cycles based SSS skin shader."  You'll find a post from me (Tues 09 May 2023) showing how you can use legacy vascular/vein maps with a Cycles node.

@hborre: yes, that's what I am experiencing; see below screenie, using oz_tangles' setup from the thread he indicated (sorry, YPhil, I can't understand how you got those node names and connections, you must have renamed nodes).

@ Rhia474: Yep, exactly what I'm getting.  I also notice it along the right side of the neck.  These areas might be meant to have lower displacement just for show.  But it's disturbing that the Displacement map is showing such a discrepancy despite the even symmetry.  

I have been playing around with YPhil's setup and made some node modification that addresses the odd bump/displacement behavior we're seeing on the right side of the face.  The image below shows the new shader node arrangement within the Vascularity compound node.

I am predominantly using the Veins Diffuse map to generate the bump/displacement maps.  The screencap below shows the Material Room arrangement for the face.  IIRC, the original product used both the Bump and Displacement channels to elevate the veins on the skin surface.  I still don't know why one side of the face renders correctly and the other side not but I managed to find the approximate combinations to make the displacement work.

My Poser units is in Feet and the particular skin texture I was working with did not contain a bump map so I had to improvise.  Note the values on the Bump node, they should remain at those values for this to work.  Control the amount of displacement on the Vascularity node, using very wide ranges to exaggerate the veins will cause the artifact to appear again.  If the balance is achieved, you will get the results below.

It's not perfect but the shadows are appearing in the right direction.

Right now, I am running a series of different light sets with this and the results are very variable.  I have a feeling that the lights are what is causing this affect.

hborre posted at 10:27 PM Wed, 4 October 2023 - #4475849

Right now, I am running a series of different light sets with this and the results are very variable.  I have a feeling that the lights are what is causing this affect.

I still don't understand how you guys are getting those node names, can someone please explain to me what, for instance is the 'Vasc. level' node is and how to find it? I think the 'Vasc mix ix a Cycles Mix node, right? Thank you so much!

Double-clicking on the node's title bar will allow you to rename the node, which can lead to confusion when displaying a screencap for others.  But it's a direct way to identify specific nodes and their function in the scheme of complex shader noodling.  When creating a compound node3, you can specifically name the inputs, again to identify what is connected to where.  The 'Vasc level' input determines how prominently the veins will appear from the diffuse map.  Value = 1 shows the blue coloring of the veins while the value = 0 will show no veins on the skin texture—all values in between govern the intensity.   And you are correct, Rhia, the 'Vasc Mix' nod is a Cycles-specific node, although you can rename all the nodes for Firefly use also.

Okay, thanks. That still does not tell me where to find the node that was named 'Vasc. Level' though... or how to construct the External input node on the right (output node names are also custom there I suspect)?

My apologies for all the questions but if I would like to recreate this ( since  i asked the question) I would need to know.

If this is explained in the manual, just tell me to read it, but  I don't recall.  

Really appreciate the help!

This is covered in the Poser manual.  In the search field, type in Compound node or Compound nodes, and you will get several instructional links.  It's straightforward, but let us know if you have any specific questions about it.  It's unfamiliar territory for many users, especially when you want to break it down to its basic nodes.

Looking at Phil's nodes, First image: Mix vascularity and Vasc Level are mix nodes. the vien disp. and Veins diffuse are image maps

second image: compound nodes and image maps.

I think the rest have their original names.

Thanks, hborre, I will poke around in the manual.

I really wish there were scripts for P13 for adding Veins, tattoos, scars etc. I am sure many would pay for them. These are a mainstream in the other software, and I never understood why they are lacking for Poser in its newer iterations.

I understand you can make them wuth nodes or in Photoshop,  that's not my issue. It is the lack of ease which is there in DAZ, just by perusing the store here.

The skin compound node is a combination of the PrincipledBSDF, HSV, and Bump nodes.  The connector descriptions give away what nodes are being used.

What is External Inputs???I'm sorry, I think I will have to remain with what oz_tangles showed. You guys are WAY too advanced for me.

This is what I got for now:

Rhia474 posted at 5:54 PM Thu, 5 October 2023 - #4475887

What is External Inputs???I'm sorry, I think I will have to remain with what oz_tangles showed. You guys are WAY too advanced for me.

"Internal Inputs" correspond to the place where you connect what is kind of entering the Compound Node. Exemple with the "Cycles Surface" node:
- Surface
- Volume
- Displacement

Think that each node you use in the Material Room is in fact a Compound Node, but of the sort you can't look in.

The same way, "External Outputs" are where the signal, once computed in the Compound Node, will exit. Example with the Image Node: the "Color" output, which is also a kind of Compound Node, as it reads your image, process it with some parameters you control (U-scale, V-scale, offsets, etc...) and transforms all this into an information flow usable by other nodes

The specificity of a user's Compound Node is that:
- you control what you put in and how the information flow is processed
- you control which parameters and which outputs you want outside your new "magic node", a bit like adapting the buttons on a remote control, repositioning them, and why not offer to make coffee with one of the buttons you don't use to control the television  

I think I understand that but *where* ate those nodes if I am trying to find them? I don't see a type like that either under traditional or Cycles nodes? I have the feeling ibam missing something basic here...

They're created automatically inside a compound node

I have used vascularity maps with the Firefly renderer for years without any problems.  About I year ago I switched to Superfly and started seeing the same weird effects that hborre described: veins that appear to recede from rather than stand out from the surface.  I lodged a support ticket but got a reply along the lines of "well, Superfly is different so what do you expect?"   I thought it might have been fixed with Poser 13 but it's still with us.  

Here's my two cents worth for the Poser brain trust to consider:

I used the standard Poser Surface root node with an old figure and maps, NOT the Cycles node. This makes it easier to compare Superfly and Firefly images. The displacement value has been set to1.25 mm and the subdivision level for the figure is set to 1. The first image shows the figure rendered using Firefly.

The vascularity is not overly prominent: it's most obvious in the groin area and on his elbow.  The next image is the same figure rendered using Superfly with exactly the same Poser root node. I used the Optix GPU render engine, but I get the same results using my computer's CPU, so it's not an NVIDIA thing.  

Woah!  First, the displacement is unrealistically large.  It certainly isn't 1.25 mm! (Raising the subdivision level doesn't seem to change anything).  The second thing is that some veins stand out while others recede.  The scene uses 2 infinite lights. Rotating the figure does seem to change where the receding veins are located, an effect that hborre has also mentioned. 

The final render is the same as the previous one but with the displacement set to 0.125 mm.  

The veins now look much more realistic, but there are still receding veins (especially in the figure's right arm).  

All this suggests to me that there is a problem in the way Superfly handles displacement.  The "receding" effect may be a fault in the way shadows are calculated, and the magnitude of the displacement is unphysical (a displacement of 0.125 mm should be essentially invisible).  

Displacement maps are also used for non-human figures and props (walls, etc.) so this problem has wider implications.  

A couple of things to keep in mind: 1) FireFly uses micro-polygon displacement which basically means that every single pixel on the final rendered image becomes a vertex point so a map applied will raise or lower each point accordingly.  2) Cycles/SuperFly only work on the actual Vertex points that are in the mesh, so unless you crank the subdivision level up several times you won't get anywhere close to the same result.  This has always been the case ever since Poser 11 came out.  3) FireFly's displacement maps (based on a Gray Scale Map) have NO displacement with a value of 127, Zero goes in and 255 goes out. So, if you are feeding the Cycles engine with the same map then it starts with the skin already displaced.

When Poser 11 first came out and there were no SuperFly materials making it so the two render engines could basically use the same materials made sense.  However there does come a time when the two are going to become very different and expecting them to keep working and giving the same results with the same setup is counterproductive and holds everything back.  

So the question remains, still: how does one achieve vascularity with Superfly since the 'traditional' Poser Firefly displacement does not work. We'd need new maps, new scripts...Hence my question if perhaps a vendor would be willing to figure this out for sellable products?

It totally is baffling to me still why there are all sorts of easily applicable solutions for scars, tattoos, freckles, moles and vascularity in DAZ, while new versions of Poser are completely void of this (there were excellent products for older versions of Poser for it). Is there so little  interest in this type of realism? Or those who0 are interested are so well-versed in the Material Room that they are just producing it for themselves and end-users like me are left wanting, asking here and slowly piecing it together, stumbling and failing?

I don't wish to move over to the other software, but this makes me somewhat sad.

Oh may God, I wonder if it's not an optical illusion, if my brain has not decided to see mini-canyons where these are more mini-mountains  

I mean:

My setup has two lights on the left, one on the front and one the back.
Below, both tries were made using hborre's solution as I'm still not sure if the original displacement map isn't totally aligned with the veins...

I've just exaggerated the displacement value (note that it doesn't seem to be units dependent, contrary to to the SSS radius values)

Lit from behind:

Lit from the front:

Honestly: my impression is that my brain is "seeing wrong".  

If I'll use that package again, that'll be without displacement. I wonder if that's clear enough and I'm thinking to a small video I saw, in which the face of a known personality was turning slowly from right to left and vice-versa: I was unable to decide definitely if it was concave or convex

It's not you, it's the Superfly view of displacement. It's all wrong. :) I remember when I was looking for a goof fur solution, the only thing I could come up with was to crank up Subdivision of the fur item. WAYYYYY up.

It's not you, it's the Superfly view of displacement. It's all wrong. :) I remember when I was looking for a goof fur solution, the only thing I could come up with was to crank up Subdivision of the fur item. WAYYYYY up.

You seem to be making your life very complicated .... Just use Bump settings instead of displacements, it might give you the results you are looking for in P13 Superfly.

Vascularity renders on V4 Poser 13 Optix Superfly Render ... Quick basic test

The problem area is being obscured in your renders.  Unless we are dealing with an optical illusion in the render, we get this with just the bump settings.

We have depressions in the model on the right side of the face although displacement works properly in most places of the body.  This is using Cycles which should be straightforward and simple.

In your render it seems more like an effect that Gradient bump was making in firefly using s tangent ... one side was inverted getting a mix of negative and positive results , such results in a render sure would make them useless.

As I get a little time I'll try to drop a Material file in here with the vascularity setting that you can just load your Maps into renamed nodes, would make life easy for simple users. Also thought to add a instance with a optional node giving the veins a Alien Blood look Like Glowing yellow or green. ( You will just need to use your own maps )

After checking again I could not find any Problem zones on the setup used for the superfly renders ( No negative Vein effects that is causing branding or scar effects on superfly renders )

running some setup tests with bump and displacement for the Mat file both seem to be working on P13 Superfly. Just a quick setup to check if nodes are ok added glow no skin maps ( Glow might reduce the Vein shadow effects )

Bump setting

Displacement setting

This is what I'v got so far for Vascularity in Poser 13 Superfly. But noted there is not further interests in a simple setup, users might of found there own solutions by now. so not wasting any further time on this :) Some Creator might sell one day a feature in the store for P13 

I'm not sure why you're saying there was no interest in a simple setup. I don't know what your solution was because I did not see your note setup while I saw others', I only saw your images you posted here. As the originator of this thread, I'd be very interested. However, if you feel you 'wasted your time' on this, I have nothing else to say.

Thought there was not much interest as there were no further reactions in this thread ....

This is how the setup looks like in my setup the attached Mt file can be loaded on a desired region of your loaded model. Add your Vascularity textures into the Nodes, copy the 3 nodes and apply to each region of your textured model. Attach the nodes to the Bump, set bump to .008 depending on the strength you wish a little higher or lower. 

Vascularity.Mt5 Download

Note: It is a simple setup giving the "basics" for further effects, to get the glowing veins I just attached the value-1 Veins node to either Alternate Diffuse or Ambient color to get a Alien effect. It works in every Poser version Firefly and superfly and is no big magic.

What is your unit of measure?  Feet?  Inches? Millimeters?  Simply stating to set your bump value to 0.008 is meaningless unless you specify your unit of measure.

actually using the Standard poser units ... never changed the settings ..." it should be Feet " in the interface Units. I think most users just leave it as it is , personally never had the need to change this interface setting :)

Anyway, it is up to any individual how he wants to achieve these Veins effects or even scales on a skin, this method is simple, does the trick very well for many effects without having to mess around with loads of nodes in cycles or whatsoever being frustrated not getting good results. Guess people are happy if getting a good 2d render result is a simple way, same thing for skinning a model :)

I also think it would be more convenient for forum members getting Mt5 setups instead of complex screenshots of setups that they almost cant figure out  how they got built, ending up to give up, for the one who is giving a solution it is also the better choice to drop a Mt5 sample rather then making screens and trying to explain the cause, for most it just needs to work in a simple way.  

Vascularity.Mt5 Download

Info: Adding this setup to Displacement on head and neck could cause a inverted effect on the right side of the figure so better use Bump in these two regions for superfly

"I also think it would be more convenient for forum members getting Mt5 setups instead of complex screenshots of setups that they almost cant figure out  how they got built, ending up to give up, for the one who is giving a solution it is also the better choice to drop a Mt5 sample rather then making screens and trying to explain the cause, for most it just needs to work in a simple way. "

Indeed!

I've completely given up on "Supafly" for various reasons, but this is one of them.

I still remember all those tiresome Firefly discussions and the hours I spent trying to recreate the spaghetti code when BagginsBill posted his latest weekly "discovery".

Lol.

This is the exact same scenario.

Lots of poking around in the dark, because:

1. Supahfly, even in it's third iteration, is still not properly functional. resp. implemented.

2. Very few people actually DO understand what they are doing in the material room.

3. Many of those few completely underestimate the level of "I'm just a hobbyist wanting to render pretty things and can't be bothered with those techie-stuff" -ness of the average Poser user.

As I said, the same happened once Firefly was introduced, and it took me pretty much a decade until I came up with a Firefly set-up that was satisfying and easy to handle to me.

But, still good luck to anyone trying to figure this thing out.

Once the Supafly preview looks as nice as my Firefly one does, once the graininess is gone without the help of a photoshop filter, once the render speed is still significantly faster, I'm happy to join "Team Supafly" myself.

But I have a feeling it'll take some more implementations of Poser until this happens.

BTW, isnt' it so that Supafly can't do "actual" (micro) displacement without a gazillion of iterations of subdivisions, anyway?

So what are we talking about here: "Just" bump or real displacement?

And if real displacement, how high is the mesh density necessary to achieve that?

BTW, setting Poser's units to meters is of course the most convenient way to handle distances.

Because then you can actual tell distances directly just by looking at the dial settings:

1 = 1meter, 2 = 2meters, 3= 3meters, etc.

;-)

JoePublic posted at 2:16 PM Wed, 11 October 2023 - #4476124

BTW, setting Poser's units to meters is of course the most convenient way to handle distances.

Because then you can actual tell distances directly just by looking at the dial settings:

1 = 1meter, 2 = 2meters, 3= 3meters, etc.

;-)

If making in our case the Vain white darker well then you have to make a higher value so I think that it mostly depends on the texture and a Dial weather metric or inchy has no Standard setting for all to get the same results , best is just to play with the dials, colors or in our case math arguments to see what effects can be achieved, naturally depending on the B&W bump map you are using. So if one is using metric in our case he just spins that dial to get the best result after attaching the given setup nodes to the Bump, is just basics, like an old radio to find the right channel <<---- wonder if they also were bothering if it is metric or Inch :))     

Holy cow, I'd rather this does not turn into a Superfly bashing, please, especially since that's the rendered I work in exclusively these days. I happen to like it very much.

Thanks for posting the MAT file, JustBeCause, I will check it out probably tomorrow once I got a minute.

Rhia474 posted at 6:32 PM Wed, 11 October 2023 - #4476129

Holy cow, I'd rather this does not turn into a Superfly bashing, please, especially since that's the rendered I work in exclusively these days. I happen to like it very much.

Thanks for posting the MAT file, JustBeCause, I will check it out probably tomorrow once I got a minute.

I do not use mainly superfly for rendering as most of the stuff  collected like Character skins are not setup for it . But the past day's started to build up some simple Pz files that remove and adjust the glossy plastic effects that are caused in superfly with older packages. had them  already in use for the veins renders made in here, still have to fix them a little, not because of the adjustment, because some detach some nodes. If I manage to make a good Pz file for this purpose I'll drop it in here making it possible to use these neat old character skins with just a click in superfly.

If you don't have an environment to bounce light around, nothing is going to look good in any render engine.

Nothing that you take a picture of with a camera, in real life, is limited to one or two bounces of light because it is the only thing there.

And if it that was the case, the pictures we take would all look a lot like a P4 render.

The simple solution is to stop thinking that rendering in a vacuum with Poser lights is ever going to look good.

Renders need an environment before you can even start making a shader to work right. And you also need render settings that allow the number of bounces it will actually need to render.

It isn't the material room that is the problem for most people. It is understanding how the engine works, and the lack of an environment.

How can you possibly make a good scene and shader setup, if you don't understand the engine and how to use it in the first place?

This uses a skin shader, with 5 nodes......

Coming up with a shader that works equally in both engines, is not going to happen.... Simply because FireFly and SuperFly engines are entirely different engines that require completely different setups.

In the end, the difference is having a scene to actually render in, understanding the engine in use and the render settings, not using Poser default P6 lights, understanding the render settings, and PostFx in SuperFly in P13. There are no lights at all in the render above.... None.... Just an HDR environment. 

The material room is not the problem. The render engines are not the problem, because they obviously work.

More info can be found on how to do this in SuperFly. >>> https://www.posersoftware.com/article/618/behind-the-scene-more-doodles-by-shvrdavid

If your trying to get an effect in a shader. Stop doing it in a vacuum with a flashlight.....

Holy cow, I'd rather this does not turn into a Superfly bashing, please, especially since that's the rendered I work in exclusively these days. I happen to like it very much.

Thanks for posting the MAT file, JustBeCause, I will check it out probably tomorrow once I got a minute.

Let's try to stay on topic for the vascularity in this thread. We can start another for tips on using Superfly and for questions from those who are just starting to use it or those who are unsure about going that route until they know more. That way the information for one topic doesn't get lost in the other.

I could need some help now that some users gotten active that seem having some experience to expand that Vascularity script to use on older skins for a one klick adjustment

I got the three main lines for the script " Example "

KsColor 0 0 0 1 used for Specular

KdColor 0 0 0 1 used for  Diffuse

KaColor 0 0 0 1 used for Ambient

This would be a black setup , now what I would need is the code for 

Alternate_Diffuse

Alternate_Specular

Is there any similar shortcut or does it have to look like this ?

nodeInput "AlternateDiffuse"

{

name "Alternate_Diffuse"

value 0.945098 0.945098 0.945098 "For white"

nodeInput "AlternateSpecular"

{

name "Alternate_Specular"

value 0 0 0 " For Black

Hope that some have Poser file scripting knowledge in his thread to figure out these shortcuts, it would save me some time making a search.