Well, people have been posting images for Nerd's backdrop prop. I decided not the spend the money and just make one myself. Before anyone accuses me of warez distribution, I want to clarify that I made this prop from scratch and I have the files to prove it. Even though it took me a while to figure out the whole UV mapping thing, I think I got it. I feel bad for releasing it if it's going to hurt sales from Nerd's original product. What to do? Are the intellectual properties in the Marketplace protected?

Here's background 1. Edo is in desperate need of a tan huh?

Here's background 2. By the way, when did they start restricting image size for forum messages be under 200k???

no, if you created it your self then its your to do as you please. As far as haow you feel then thats what you'll have to deside on your own.

In my country people always retain the intellectual rights to their creation, no matter what the creation is, unless they clearly state not claiming that right. As youre not claiming the idea, but just worked out a problem resulting in something that resembles someone elses solution to the same problem, Id say think nothing of it and do as you please. Though, I DO know one person that wont be very pleased...

I'm liking it. As for Nerd...well, we all have to acknowledge that there will be competition in life. I'd go ahead and post it.

actually, i believe that the backdrop in the daz3d cyber studio was around long before nerd's - and that makes nerd's prop kindof a spinoff. you created it yourself, release it if you like. ive purchased nerd's backdrop, so im not just saying this because i want to get yours for free. people cant hold a copyright on an idea so general. backdrops have been used in photography and film for decades. i understand, however, when people get upset over plagiarism of very specific, creative items such as, for example, a particular complex hairstyle.

Go ahead and post it. Nerd is more than capable of enhanching his product to make it a worthwhile item to purchase - and if there is no advantage to the commercial one then that's the market at work. I don't think anyone should be hurt or insulted by this.

Here's my two-cents, for what it is worth. (probably about a penny) G If you, as you say, figured this out on your own by coming up with your own approach, etc., and did not base your's on a prototype of Nerds, then I would say ethically you have a right to do with your creation as you choose. If, however, you more or less just copied the idea he originated - or even went so far as to reverse engine his prop - than while you may (or may not) be legally within your right to distribute your prop, I would say that it would be unethical to do so. Like I said, just my two cents.

Waittaminute, isn't Nerd's prop free too? Just wondering - I don't have it but I have a ton of Nerd's free stuff which are a lot more complex than this thing... so I thought he'd probably give this sort of thing out for free too?!?

My 2 copper... It's nice to see some one with enough ethics to ask if its a good or bad idea before "borrowing" some one elses idea...I commend you for that! I'd say ask the origionator (nerd in this case) if he has a problem with it...I really don't think he will, he seems a reasonable fella, still its nice to be asked...

This may be oversimplifying it: It's a curved plane! It would be foolish to think that anyone that models one (even for their personal use) would be violating copyright laws. I think Blackhearted is right.

I agree with Blackhearted but Dmentia too, there's nothing wrong with it but if you have a doubt, ask Nerd! I wish I'd asked, or even told Dmentia directly that I had a project underway that was the same idea as one of her for sale items. I conciously neglected to do so because of a number of spurious (now apparently silly) reasons - one being her apparent stance of free market guild from the gigantic thread here, and hence the freedom to release similar items as others, coupled with the frequent repetition of "ideas cannot be copyrighted" in the copyrights forum, (causing my turn around on the neftis/mehndi thing straight after reading that thread, where i originally thought bad of neftis for using similar ideas as mehndi.) But it is "nice" and we all should aim to be nice. Hence, my apologies to Dmentia, (not assumed to be accepted, but it's genuine.) OT: I'm not sure the word "ethics" applies cos those vary from person to person and your ethics are not the same as mine. And my ethics today are not the same as 3 months ago.

You could ask Nerd if he wants a joint venture, where you could work with him on this or other items. If you could go through the steps of:

• properly mapping a one-sided plane that had a good polygon count
• resizing, bending it about 75 degrees in the x-axis within some limits of the bending point, and rotating it back to a good orientation, using a 3D modeller
• exporting to Poser while retaining the texture and edge sharpness
• creating a Poser light set that illuminates the curved surface without destroying the illusion of a continuous scene

you might be a good associate for Nerd. One possible problem with the concept is that the curved surface may require special lighting conditions in Poser that are likely to differ drastically from any sunlit or studio photograph used to texture the curved surface. The result may be that the lighting on the figure will rarely resemble the lighting in the photographic backdrop.

It ain't a copy. Go right ahead. People have been mapping backdrops on spheres, curves etc. forever. I submitted a scene sphere idea several months back using spherical mapping in bryce. Its nothing new. Now if Nerd had some very special shaped backdrop (like some weird cone or something) then I can see somewhat of a confict but this kind of stuff is just standard.

Yeah, this is a pretty universal idea. Frankly, I find it pretty incredible that Nerd was even ever able to sell something so simplistic. Hell, anyone with even a weak freeware modeler could build this. No offense to anyone, but I find it hard to imagine anyone but the greenest newbies actually PAYING for this. Go for it. Hell, I may even put up some high-res digital photos somewhere for people to use with it. What size and dimensions would be optimal?

I'm glad you took the trouble to ask, for my two bits it is Nerd's idea, you can put textures up for it in Freestuff but not the mesh without his approval. After reading Nerd's description I had a pretty good idea how it worked, at that state it would be marginal to do your own version, but after even seeing your top pic I'm using too much of his idea. With all respect, it is much easier to copy somthing that come up with original ideas, I don't know if Nerd got this idea directly from DAZ, but if I know Nerd it was mostly original. I also, initialy, had a little problem with Blackhearted's new character, it looks a lot like SMMV, but after I downloaded it and put them side-by-side I could see that it didn't use any of her morphs, though, and doesn't have high-heel feet. I just wonder if anybody else uses SMMV's plan of morphs that cross part seams, to make essentially a new figure. She (Angelena) is very, very nice BTW! I just hope he doesn't get in trouble using Vickie II head morphs, which I think I can see in her! ;-) Gee guys, coming up with the idea is tough, but it is so easy afterward to say 'anyone could have thought of that!"

Wait a minute! Bloodsong released a "Product Shot" prop which is a curved ground plane for this type of use, as a free stuff item last April. Is Nerd sharing commissions with Bloodsong? Things that have previously been released as a free item should never be allowed in the stores. Just look under "Drape Background Props" in Free stuff and you already have it. Pinto

I agree - while it is cool to protect an origional idea that implies that the idea was something that was unique. The nerd background was nice - and I am happy he made money with it - but Daz has one, there is at least one free one it seems and the idea is not all that complex. Sorry... I say there just isn't any problem here.

Pinto is right, there is already a "backdrop prop" floating around in the free stuff... who knew? I never even noticed that before, seeing the drapes on the other side... now I don't feel so bad. I sent Nerd a message already, but I'll wait to see if I get a reply.

Anyway, let me just add it was very, very nice of you to ask, you didn't have to, of course!

Angelyna looks like Supermodel Vicki? I have to say the resemblance there escapes me completely. SMV is tall and thin and not very curvy, while Angelyna is short and more stocky around the thighs and... er... err... baby's got back... :-> Here's something I know I'll end up sorry I wrote. I wonder if some of the reaction we're seeing isn't a bit of resentment by vendors against people who come up with things that are of as good or better quality than Marketplace stuff (things like Angelyna and P4VSkin) and then undercut market values by have the temerity to give them away rather than sell them. Not too long ago, giving things away for free was the norm around here, and selling them was the suspiciously-regarded exception to the rule. Now it seems the worm has turned. -nemo

The short fur tutorial I did was such a simple thing I almost didnt post it, I figured any one could figure that one out...but apparentlly I was wrong...I've gotten more thank yous for that than just about anything I've ever posted...So ideas while sometimes very simple can be very helpful... After looking at nerd's prop vrs other props out there, I will say yes its a terribly simple idea, but I didnt come up with it...He also included a tutorial of sorts on how to make the back ground images right for the model, the horizon line I'm guessing needs to be in the right spot for these things to work...I don't think Bloodsongs idea and Nerds idea are the same, just similiar...course I could be wrong as I dont own either of them... As for posavic, well I worked on her for quite a bit but V2 was released at about the same time, so she was never as "hot" as she could have been...Still, she was a good idea, and she is very different from P4VSkin...Yes I did download P4VSkin and compare them... People who ask earn my respect, perhaps that isnt much and not worth the time of some, but I do thank all those folks who took the time to ask about things, my answer is almost always yes, but being asked deffinatelly makes a big difference... Take Anton's Magic for instance...Very very very simple idea, which was copied within 2 days of its release...Still, if it were so simple, why was anton the first to publish it?...hmmmmm... In closing here is how I see it...If people continue to take the very simple ideas of others the origionators may decide it isnt worth persuing these simple ideas, and we may loose out on all the future simple ideas down the road...Sure some one else may figure it out later, but then will they share it?...or will they also assume that some one else will come along and figure it out?...Sure its a free market, and unorigional ideas are free game, but it never hurts to ask... ps Appology accepted...and my ethics haven't changed in years...

Scale SMMV's body down to about 92% in Y only and put them side by side, your be suprized. After saying that, let me say I was wrong, she has nothing in common, I said "initially". She is an excellent character, BTW! I also think anotomical correct figures have to look similar (and have to look different from stock Vickie, who isn't correct) DAZ has a lot of parts in the wrong places, we just both corrected the mistakes!

hmmmm...Reguarding this idea that Fauve put forward... The release of P4VSkin has actually improved my sales of posavic rather than hindering them...so that kinda blows that theory...

heyas; i cant remember if nerd's backdrop came out before or after i did my 'product shot' background morphs with the ground plane. to tell the truth, i really never paid that much attention to nerd's backdrop prop (or the world builder thingies), since i dont need it; i usually render in vue, if i want a scene. i never used photos textures on mine... i never thought about it, really. all i wanted was that vertical-wall-curving-down-into-the-horizontal-floor deal for backgrounds to take shadows and stuff. but i noticed those free backdrop photo/texture things, showing nerd's prop, and i was kinda surprised that's all it was. not that it isn't a good idea; it's very cool. it seems to me that modelling it ain't the trick, its getting the ground/landscape photos to work correctly with it. so a well-wrought curve (that cathes light/shadows properly) with custom-fitted photos/textures is a decent product. but now back to this... it's kind of a grey area. i think the question you should ask is, do you want to release it for free? and if so, why? you say you'd feel bad if you'd hurt nerd's sales. then don't release it. then you won't feel bad. you can use it for your own stuff, of course. :) if you would feel worse for not giving the community this free goodie, then go ahead and give it out. that's basically what it comes down to.

"Scale SMMV's body down to about 92% in Y only and put them side by side, your be suprized." I don't own SMV or SMMV (though the latter is on my Christmas wish list!) but I am more than willing to take your word for it. No one has spent more time looking at various permutations of SuperModel Vickie than you have! :-> I think it just caught me by surprise when you wrote that, because at first glance SMMV and Angelyna's proportions are so different. But of course, Supermodel Morphing Vickie morphs... They are both great figures. I'm in love with Angelyna... now if I could just get some clothes to fit over that spring-loaded butt of hers. -nemo

"The release of P4VSkin has actually improved my sales of posavic rather than hindering them...so that kinda blows that theory... " Something I didn't mention before (and in fairness, definitely should have) is that the average quality of third-party Poser stuff has really shot up since the Marketplace was introduced. No surprise there... it's the Ayn Rand joy of capitalism in effect. Back where there was only FreeStuff, there were still amazing items produced (like Tim Laubach's textures, Traveller's Eve, Staale's work, etc) but the majority were tweaks or simple things like the items I once did for FreeStuff, because there wasn't an obvious incentive or recompense for doing more. More people can invest time and money in creating Poser addons and in increasing their quality (in order to compete for shoppers' dollars) now that there's a way for them to be reimbursed for it. That's really raised the bar on the kind of stuff that's available for Poser, even if it means you have to get your wallet out for some of it. In that sense, the Marketplace has been a very positive thing for the community. On the other hand, it's not a good thing that Renderosity has become commerce-oriented to such an extent that a well-meaning person, like Visualkinetics, runs the risk of criticism for simply giving away a free item that they made themselves. -nemo

I hope visualkinetics' head hasn't been spun around cos of the more serious depth this discusion has dived into! "The release of P4VSkin has actually improved my sales of posavic rather than hindering them...so that kinda blows that theory... " That helps prove the theory about the free market idea not hurting genuinely good items, free or sale. (And possibly helping sales, but that's probably a fluke.) And if the fmg concept had been expanded, it may have included how to handle this kind of situation and not let people like me drift around so much. On the other hand, it's not a good thing that Renderosity has become commerce-oriented to such an extent that a well-meaning person, like Visualkinetics, runs the risk of criticism for simply giving away a free item that they made themselves. Yes, that's why he asked around first, which was smart. This excersice has hopefully educated others too, including myself. Because the next frontier (if we're not there already, or all along) would be people releasing similar freestuff to each other. The only "coin" left valid is the nod of acknowlegement towards the person who thought of it first... and I think the erosion of this acknowlegement is what has people bugged and may cause less and less sharing, free OR for sale; or at least drive up the price of for sale items because they are in effect giving away their idea just by showing a render! and they have to get their costs back somehow... Dmentia, thanks for accepting my apology. I think my ethics are changing because they are still developing - hopefully for the good. Before coming to renderosity my opinion about even copying ideas was that it's very nasty without a line of credit everywhere you can paste it. Then here I witnessed a backlash against demand for credit and I swung in the other direction. Now I'm on the swing back again. Hopefully to find a happy medium.

Boy I sure do have a history of raising hell whenever I decide to release something. I seem to keep introducing controversy... as some of you may remember I did try to do a different texture to Anton's Changing Ponytail, and all the negative comments and arguments that went on made me decide to not release it. As for here, a new Muse namely Nance sent me some IM's that gave some new sparks as to how I might improve and innovate on this idea, so stay tuned. Replying to Bloodsong's comment "do you want to release it for free? and if so, why?" Well basically it's because I feel it's something so "simple" that I should be able to make it on my own and not have to pay money for it. Not to devalue it in anyway, but it just doesn't seem right to have to pay for a UVmapped plane basically! I feel that since I didn't want to pay money for it, I'm sure a lot of others didn't either, so I'm considering releasing it for free. I started this thread to get a reaction and train of thought as to what this trend meant. I feel like I am doing something counter culture to the Sell, sell, sell attitude. I, for one, would love to see people start releasing things for free that are as good if not better then what's available in the Marketplace just so that we could raise the bar a little bit. So that not every average Joe could make a sucker out of me. Once again, in no way implying Nerd's product or any particular product is not worth the money, but you must admit that we are seeing a whole lot more "low quality" products being sold. If things are available for free of equal of better quality, it would only drive the vendors to improve upon their existing products. It's a backwards way of maintaining quality control. As far as I'm concerned, this is my product, my creation, and mine to do as I please, but I did ask out of respect for the "original creator". Note also that ideas are only legally protected if they are patented, I don't see anyone in the Marketplace flashing patent on anything they do. It's how the free world runs, people have ideas and everyone races to offer the best way to materialize them. I just didn't want to seem rude and thoughtless that's all.

Man I just knew this tread was going to get blown out of control.....

I thought my ears were burning. I seem to be in the middle of a controversy.

First off thanks to Visualkinetics for thinking before acting. Thanks to every one who has voiced an opinion here. And yes, my Backdrop prop is a UV mapped plane. But it's the way it's UV mapped that makes it special. The map is distorted to reverse the distortion of the camera. That's the original idea here.

Such a simple prop. Why sell it? Well, I spent a week searching out decent background scenes. I was looking for "everyday" shots that would be useful to people. I spent a lot of time adjusting, fixing and tweaking these to work as best they could. The images were all shot with the sun as nearly straight up as possible. This creates minimal shadows, so the figure could be lit and not look misplaced because of differences in shadowing from the background. Some of the scenes were shot on overcast days and tinted to appear sunny. The real work was in the included scenes. (Even extra, because I live in Bakersfield CA. It's a bit hard to find any scenery here!) The backdrop comes with several light setups to enhance the usability of the scenes.

OK, Enough justification. The issue... I can't stop people from selling or giving away items similar to mine. If that were true, we would all be driving Mercedes.

On the other hand what if it is "Just like mine..."

Visualkinetics based his backdrop on mine, as he said. If I wrote a book called Gone with the Breeze about a southern belle with a bad attitude named Maroon who lives in a house called Earth and fell in love with a man named Red, I would, no doubt, get sued. Unless of course it was a parody. Then, it's OK. If someone makes a MIDI sequence BASED on somebody else's song they are susceptible to a copyright law suit. A MIDI is by no means a copy of the original. It is the same tune or IDEA, though. The entire purpose of copyright law is to protect ideas.

Now, I'm not suing anybody, especially not over a $10 Poser prop. There are however issues here that effect the entire Poser community. There have been people that have posted free items similar to store items just to spite somebody they didn't like. This situation is obviously different. Visualkinetics made his own because he didn't want to buy it. Now he feels that maybe he should share it. I won't stop him.

Before he hits the upload button there some things to consider. Some people will be really glad they can get a backdrop thing free. Some of these people may have purchased mine. Some people will be really mad because they feel that my intellectual property was stolen. Anybody who has been around here for any length of time knows that the bulk of the members here are very sensitive to intellectual property issues. Most of us are artists. Some of us are programmers, too. These laws help us pay our bills and feed our families. We get a bit uppity when somebody even gets close to breaking them.

Remember that the Renderosity store pays the bills to keep this forum on line. The people who buy my stuff keep nerd3d.com on line. (Which came perilously close to closing down last month.) A lot of those prized freebies are my creations. (Look at the "Top Contributors" link in the free stuff.) The freebie downloads pushed my bandwidth to over 30GB per month. Find a host that allows traffic like that. The "unlimited" bandwidth places have some extremely fine print about excessive utilization. I just got a nasty note from my provider for over utilization yesterday.
It has been argued in this thread (and I've said it myself in the vendor forum), that if somebody posts a freebie that rivals a store product then the store product needs to be improved. Now, I think mine is better. But if it is not, that's exactly what I will do. In fact, the improved version is already built, awaiting my attention to apply the polish and create a set of maps for it. When it gets released, I will probably offer a special discount for owners of the original. (Don't hold your breath! There are several projects that will come first. The fog and atmosphere tool will be in a Poser store near you shortly. It's already available directly from the nerd3d store, Sorry for the shameless plug.)

It comes down to this. I'm not going to get mad if Visualkinetics posts his version, but some people will. Mostly because it sets a bad precedent and may infringe on intellectual property rights. The idea is legally protected by copyright law. It doesn't require a patent. I can't endorse this because of the ramifications to the rest of the vendors and the community as a whole. Like it or not capitalism won over communism. If we don't make money to pay the server bills, this place goes away.

heyas; well, that's valid. on the one hand, you want to save the average joe from having to spend money on something by releasing a free one. on the other hand, you don't want to deprive nerd of his money, either. so the answer is..... no matter what you do, SOMEbody somewhere is gonna think you're wrong. :)

I don't think there are any ideas or products that are entirely original. I think if you followed much of the logic here, there would be no free stuff. There might not be any stuff for sale by different companies. Curious Labs owns Poser. DAZ, and other companies make stuff for Poser. What stops Curious Labs from saying "You can't produce stuff for Poser because we own it?!" What stops DAZ from telling Renderosity or other companies that they can't produce or sell Poser-related characters, props, scenes, etc because they already produce such stuff?! Let's be real here. One great thing about Poser is the kind of support that it offers. You can go to many commercial sites and find excellent Poser-related resources. You can shop around for what you buy. In my first week of using Poser, I visited countless web sites that gave me 13 CD's of FREE Poser stuff.. That collection has now reached 48 and counting. Much of the free stuff is just as good, if not better than the "commercial" items. You will find similar resources in both free and commercial areas. Most of the people out there are not ripping off someone else. They are not selling what someone else gave away. They are not stealing secrets. The people who give away their Poser creations are to be commended, and thanked profusely. Many of us Poser users could barely afford to buy Poser, let alone spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to buy the great stuff at DAZ 3D or Renderosity. We will eventually get all the stuff on our wish lists. That list keeps growing. In the meantime, we live for the excellent FREE resources. I know that many people who provide free Poser resources also sell some. Perhaps many of them used the Free market as a way to be sure they've developed their talents enough to be of "commercial potential." Perhaps some products are so excellent, or take so much work that they really should involve a price tag. One thing I love about Poser-related merchandise is that so much of it is very affordable. I don't recall any Poser related resource that has reached "triple digits." Most products are well under $100. There is one reality here. We have many excellent artists who would like to earn a living with their talents. We have many excellent artists who need to pay the bills for whatever they use to do their work, and share their products. I've always considered myself a self-described "frustrated writer and hopeful artist." I am nowhere near creating anything to give away or sell yet... My artwork has barely progressed beyond the primitive state. But I know what is like to have the dream of earning a living based on your god-given talent. I commend and support anyone who tries. I really wanted to buy Nerd's Backdrop Tool. It is on my list. Money is tight these days.....that list gets bigger, and the purchases are not in the immediate horizon. If one generous soul is willing to give away a similar tool (obviously not stolen, etc), then don't harass him for the effort. Thank him. I will.

Nerd- I felt exactly like you do. It is sort of a tough call, but I also question the purpose of Free Stuff items that duplicate low-priced, for-sale items. There is so much to be done that doesn't duplicate any existing item, gee, I've got thousands of things in my mind, I'll never even get half of them done. I'm going have a free item out in a month or two that duplicates some commerical for-sale items in a way, and these items are a mainstay of a a couple of places, I thought long and hard, the item is similar but different, it is low-poly "for the background", but with a map on it it doesn't look half bad, and it poses just as well as the real thing. I don't think it can be made into the real thing, but I was still and am still worried about the companies getting mad at me.

"It comes down to this. I'm not going to get mad if Visualkinetics posts his version, but some people will. Mostly because it sets a bad precedent and may infringe on intellectual property rights. The idea is legally protected by copyright law. It doesn't require a patent. I can't endorse this because of the ramifications to the rest of the vendors and the community as a whole. Like it or not capitalism won over communism. If we don't make money to pay the server bills, this place goes away."

While I certainly see what your trying to get at... I don't think there is a bad precedent here. It is a mapped plane. That covers it.  This is an idea that is not new to Poser and the Marketplace version is far from the first example of a prop of that sort in the 3D community... and probably not in the Poser community.

The concept of patent law accepts the reality that some ideas are too simple, obvious or inherent in a field of endeavor to be protected... and there is a good reason for this.

To make another such prop is in no way to set a bad precedent for the community than is the idea of a vendor looking at the Marketplace and saying "hey, I think I would like to build a pony tail hair" or "wow! textures look cool, I should do a texture of a pretty girl". to say that doing such a thing is derivative or a "bad precedent" is, to my mind stretching the point.

In the larger term, I really don't see how it is somehow "unpatriotic" in a Renderosity sense to make a prop available for free if it might compete with a vendor - the fact that the Marketplace pays for the servers is nice but shouldn't certainly afford the vendors the ability to continue to make money unless the product warrants it.

A similar example is the global lighting set-ups. If I decide to make one of my own after hearing about the technique should I not make it free? Of course I can. The technique is common - it wasn't invented by anyone here... even if I may have heard of it here. How many Dragons are running around out there for that matter... is the idea of a Dragon in poser protected?

The dangerous precedent would be for a simple, common and obvious tool of the trade to somehow be considered protected when it is not in and of itself protect able.

That being said, I would purchase it if I needed it. In fact I did purchase it - the version they sell at Daz. I wonder then if there are some who think it was wrong of Daz to sell one? OR for someone here to sell one if Daz had it? if course not. If I looked at the picture at Daz's site of the product I know all I need to to make one of my own... and I can give that away ethically clean - because it is too simple to be protect able... nor should it be.

Now only isn't this a legal problem, it isn't an ethical one that I can see. There is no technicality in play, there is no precedent that will hurt Renderosity or weaken vendor rights.

Sorry if that upsets folks... but there you go.

I looked at Nerd 3d's tool, understood and wanted it. I looked at DAZ's cyber studio, and didn't understand or want it. It appears to be a simularion of a photographer's studio, a "set" if you will. I have no desire to imitate a photographer's studio, showing cameras, lights, etc. I was not interested in the product. If these two products are the same then DAZ did a lousy job of portraying the product. Nerd 3D did an excellent job of presenting the product.

I think it's important to look at these things from a practical point of view as well as an ethical one. Nerd gives away a LOT of good free stuff. Free stuff may be free for people who download it isn't free for those of us that give it away. I'm only able to provide my free stuff because of the sales I make here as a vendor. My geocities site kept getting closed because of bandwidth usage, and I don't give away a fraction of the stuff Nerd does. Just remember that if you deprive Nerd of his sales, you may be depriving yourself and the rest of us of his free stuff. As a huge fan of free stuff myself, I'd definitely prefer continued access to Nerd's free stuff over a free backdrop. If his site goes, his tutorials also go. I would never have invented EasyPose without Nerd's tutorials. Shuting down a site that has such useful technical tutorials could deprive us of the next big Poser innovation. Also, with regard to the arguments about backdrops not being a new or copyrightable idea, I'd like ask if this one is designed to be compatible with the free textures for Nerd's prop. It would seem to me that releasing one that is designed to go with the free textures already available for Nerd's is definely treading on toes - and not lightly either.

If you sell or give away products that use any of the DAZ resources, such as Mike, Viki, the DAZ dragon, etc.... wouldn't you be treading on toes as well? Couldn't you potentially deprive other companies of funds? If you follow this logic to the extreme, there would be no free stuff. No one else would be selling anything.

I've never seen a free or sold product that used DAZ's Mike or Vicky or any of their other items, except one where the person concerned actually did have DAZ permission to distribute part of DAZ's mesh. The textures and characters found in the freestuff and the store that can be used WITH those products are not usable if you don't own the DAZ product concerned. As such they extend the usability of DAZ products and do nothing but good for DAZ sales. If somebody releases free textures that go with Nerd's prop, that is good for his sales as well as good for people that own the prop already and is to be encouraged. To cut Nerd out of the equation by releasing something that, when combined with those textures makes his original product unnecessary would be a whole different kettle of fish.

Personally, I'd rather see a tutorial on the dang thing is made rather than have Visualkenitics release his as free stuff. Those that cared could spend the time to make thier own. Those that didn't could just purchase one, on not. I don't think this would really impact the sales very much and thus relieve some of the moral concerns, plus present a good learning tool. mike

The DAZ backdrop is nothing like mine. Their's is designed to "look" like a photographer's studio backdrop. Mine is not designed to "look" like anything. It is designed to give an outdoor scene a better place to hang than the poser "Background Image." In a scene using my backdrop, the idea is to not see the backdrop, but what was pasted on it. Nobody, that I could find, had done it this way before. The bulk of the products based on, or for, DAZ products introduce new features or capability to the product. A texture adds diversity to the product--making it more desirable. A Morph does the same. People are not building exact copies of Mike or Vicky to give away. They are adding features to the product. Nobody here is saying that you can't sell floor mats and window tint that fit a Chevy. We are saying you can't make a car exactly like a Chevy and market it. In fact, the people who purchase my backdrop get complete instructions on creating their own maps AND if they send in maps and I use them, they get credit in the Nerd3d Store.. An extreme wide angle photo. Probably a 26-30 mm lens on a 35mm camera. On my little digital camera I take 4 shots and stitch them together. Portrait (tall) 4 X 3 aspect ratio. The horizon line needs to be right down the middle. The bottom of the photo should almost get your toes. (Some of my raw shots did!) The rest of the magic is in the UV map. As soon as I get about 20 really good ones I'll release a collection (probably free) and those people will get rewarded for helping me improve my product. Why tell everybody how to make maps? Because with more people making maps, my product becomes even more versatile. DAZ, Curious Labs and practically anybody in business know that complimentary accessories enhance a product's desirability. Why do you think DAZ gives away the texture templates for Vicki and Mike? Heck, you don't even have to own the product to download them. Now, if it was such a simple idea, then why didn't anybody do it before me? Because they never got the IDEA. The IDEA, the real intellectual property, is the hardest part. Ask any artist, not just a graphic artist but a musician, a painter or a sculptor, what the hardest part of art is. The answer you will get from them all is, "An original IDEA." Once you know where you are going, it is just a matter of technical skill to get there. A man named Gillette had an exceedingly simple idea that made him very rich. The disposable razor blade. Is there something wrong with a simple idea? Not if you ask King Gillette. If visualkinetics' tool was designed to improve my idea, do something different or better. I would be the first in line to congratulate him. I would put my mind to work to find another way to improve Poser. (Oh, the ideas I have for y'all.) But, it doesn't improve my idea. It does the same thing. It's the same idea.

I think Nerd has a great tool. Well worth the $10. If someone is interested in posting stuff to Freestuff, add-on photos would be a much more appreciated target for your efforts. Just an opion from one corner of the Poser universe. In fact, there is some value to having all the add-on photos be in the same format, so we can use them all the same way. - JimX

Too bad I don't have $10... because I'd be buying the backdrop tool ASAP...

Well, I am going to put my two cents in here as well. Nerd has said that the time and the work mostly came from getting the mapping, lights, and textures just the right way. Not in the actual backdrop. So the way I see it is this. If you in any way saw or used a friends version or what not to know exactly how he did this and recreated that, then If it was me I wouldn't feel that it was ethically correct to post it. If, on the other hand, you simply took a curved plane and mapped it, and in no way copied all of the time and work he put into the rest of his, than it wouldn't be much more than maping a plane to use as a backdrop and there should be no reason not to release it. It would be more than sufficiently different than his (in my eyes)and anyone wanting the extra level of detail would still buy his. Just my two cents. Angela

"But, it doesn't improve my idea. It does the same thing. It's the same idea."

And I think it was an original idea for you - but it is not a unique idea in graphic arts. This sort of prop didn;t start with poser... it is a fairly straight forward application of the way 3D works. It is a idea that would be independantly derived by many people - for patent purposes then it is "obvious".

I'm sorry - but I don't see a problem.

Hypothetical situation: I see am image of a cute Asian texture in the store, I decide I want one but don't have the money. I build one in Photoshop and post it for free. There is no ethical problem in my mind at all. I didn't use any of their work and the idea of an Asian texture is not so unique that it is protected... even if I got the idea from that texture.

Example: How many of the vendors here now include MAT files in their products? How many of them considered NOT using MAT files because it wasn't their idea originally? How many of them learned how to make MAT files because they or someone "reverse engineered" the MAT files the originator put out? Before we toss ethical stones here...

Example: As far as I know Anton pioneered the swapped geometry concept with the CFS (or the hair?). I am sure other vendors have or will use it - why isn;t anyone upset that they are copying this idea? Where is the call to not use it or release anything with it?

No offense, but a mapped plane is simply not something I consider unique enough to warrant this level of protection. You did it 'first' and you made some $$$. Seems fair to me.

Example: How many hair items in the store have pony tails? braids? How many people thing the community should have only had one pony tail hair? Not me. But someone (Daz?) made the first Poser pony tail... why aren't we protecting that?

Example: Jim Burton's amazing French Maid outfit. Surely someone else should be free to release a free stuff version of a French Maid outfit if they are inspired to create one?

This is why you can patent/protect an implementation of an idea, not the idea itself. Your specific pop is all yours, the idea of such a prop is not yours and never can be. This is a common thing in the world around us... and rightly so. I am not saying Nerd didn't do a lot of work - and I am happy some $$ were made... but I am concerned by the whole idea that this community thinks basic modeling principals are protect able.

Maybe this is fairly clear to me because I have been a programmer for so long selling products I developed. Clearly I know when I release a new program that does "Y" that soon someone else will have a program to do "Y" and that's fine. If they stole my code to do "Y" then I have a case... if they independently derived the solution or it is "obvious" then ah well, I am just glad I made my money for a while as the "first".

If this wasn't so there wouldn't be multiple Operating Systems, or Browsers, or Word Processors. Basic ideas are free.

BTW - the Daz prop can be used in this manner was my point - the shape is very basic.

Just a thought about people saying you can't copy right a method or technique. Your correct it's a Patent that holds the rights to a method and technique. If you used Nerds techniques even by chance if their the same and he holds a patent. He could sue. I.E. There is a patent on Panoramic techniques. Polaroid has a patent on their techniques. There is more to intellectual properties than just copyrights. Well all said and done you asked the question and it appears to me Nerd seems prefer you not to distribute it. So it looks like it would be in poor taste to do so now. Though it was good of you to ask. Why not try and work with him to see if you can make a better product at the same price. Deimos. P.S. Nerd has many cool free downloads.

soulhuntre may be correct that is to simple of a method to patent. I don't know. I would think the same thing about the Panormaic patent. Some vary simple ideas have been patented that would seem obvious given enough time.

OK, let's refer to Gillette and the disposable razor. How many brands of disposable razors, how many varieties are there in this world? Did someone keep the other companies from making their own? No. Would they be sued if they ripped off the product and made their own, using the same exact specs? Yes. Does anyone remember decades ago (in the 1980's I think) When Kodak made their own instant camera, similar to the Polaroid cameras that were out at the time? Kodak apparently was guilty of ripping off the Polaroid technology. I bought a Kodak instant camera. Within a year it was a dead camera, because Polaroid sued and won. DAZ mades Michael, Vicki, and other products. DAZ makes textures for these character. DAZ makes props and more. DAZ often sells the textures (etc) separately. Other people sell or give away textures, props, hair, clothes. These products (made by others) are in competition with the similar products that DAZ sells. So shouldn't these other artists refrain from producing those same products?! NO. I've seen Nerd 3D's site. I've seen PhilC's site, and the sites of many other fine artists who earn some money supporting Poser (I hope you get rich, by the way, because you have excellent products, and you deserve it.) I have to trust that this new product doesn't rip-off Nerd's backdrop tool. If the guy wanted to do a ripoff, he wouldn't hae started this forum thread. He would not have asked for our opinions. So give him credit, give him support. Thank him.

This is my point, make something new, something better... **Announcing free for all Backdrop owners an improved version. Free reguardless of where you purchased your Backdrop.** A new morph That flattens the back wall to all for better city scape renders. No more curverd wall when the camera is not straight on. The dowmload includes a new CR2 with the new morph and an updated Court House settng modified to work with the "Square Back" morph. Get them while they are HOT! **[Free Download for all Backdrop Owners](http://www.nerd3d.com/Store/Backdrop/Backdrop.htm)** P.S. This whole thing was created, concept, construction, testing, new texture, zip, update website, upload new product, test download and stop to and take my wife to dinner (Hungry Hunter Wohoo!) between this post and my last post here, or about 3 hours. Most of that time was spent getting every thing ready to go, very little on the actually modeling. A little less arguing and a little more modeling and we would all have lots more Poser stuff to play with. Now, back to your computers! [](http://www.nerd3d.com)

"A little less arguing and a little more modeling and we would all have lots more Poser stuff to play with. Now, back to your computers!" :0 Very well said.