This is amazing. Months ago I finally make it back onto the forums, I catch up with all the messages and when I'm just about there -BAM- the PFO/Edgenet split occurs. I go away and sulk quietly in the background. Around Xmas, I decided to try again. This time I actually get to post on the PFO for a week or two before -BAM-. And here we are again. I just really wanted to comment on a couple of things. First, I just can't believe that it seems to sit fine with people to lay the blame for this entire sad tale at the feet of Willow and Grey. While they deserve their share of it, there is -more- than enough to go around for Edgenet and most of the members who were there when this all first started (including myself). To simply say or imply that it was all their fault and their pettiness is ridiculous. Second, take a look at what is happening here. We are talking about lawsuits. I have seen the emotional, physical and financial drain that comes with these types of legal actions. These aren't faceless corporations like Microsoft or Netscape. These are individuals that we know, have conversed with and learned from. And yet, the consensus that these messages are seemingly reaching is one of "Oh..that's not our problem. That's the business side of it. Nothing to do with us...lets get back to the pretty pictures." We can't be that selfish. Everyone is always talking about the "Poser community". Maybe it's time we started acting like one. We could be too late, but maybe there is something that we can do...some way that we can put all the bickering aside and try mediate this. Company or individuals, are either parties pockets deep enough to withstand a protracted legal battle. It doesn't matter which "side" you think you're on, are we willing to do nothing and possibly watch lives being shredded and risk losing both of these incredible resources? -=>Donald

I'm usually one to stick up for the underdog in most cases--but I draw the line with martyrs. Time and time again, Willow and Co have whooped up hysteria whenever they can't bully their way out of a situation, and they have a tendency to exaggerate the wrongdoings of others. I followed the PFO when they left Edgenet, but at some point I realized the ploys and problems of the PFO were either blown out of proportion, or manufactured, to (as far as I can tell) make a sympathy plea to the Poser community. The "poison pill" efforts of the PFO have served no purpose other than to hurt their own members by making them the real victims in all this hooplah. The die-hard PFO followers, in the case of a PFO shut-down, would be left with two options, either turn coat and post at Renderosity or the Poser Props Guild (since Grey named the PPG as part of the big PFO conspiracy), or find some sort of refuge in the smaller, scattered Poser sites elsewhere on the web. My feeling is that Grey's "au revoir" was intended to stir up more problems in the community at the expense of the PFO members. This is not something that can be mediated--it has to take its course. The community would be best advised to take a wait and see attitude rather than a call to arms. Personally, I hope the community remains a group of many voices--not just two! Trying to make peace at this point would be a big step backwards.

P.S. The battle is between the Forums, not between the majority of members of either forum. The difference between the Renderosity die-hards and the PFO die-hards is that most of us bad mouthing the PFO are speaking from personal experience (being on the wrong end of the Willow stick) rather than from being outraged about something done to a third party. P.S.S. What Grey is referring to in his letter is a LICENSING conflict, not a copyright conflict. In my mind, copyright problems are for artists, and licensing problems are for pop stars.

On the way home, I tried to think of what it is that we could do to help mediate this. There's a lot of mud flying in both directions, but it seems to boil down to 3 major stumbling blocks: 1) Maybe its time the helpful poser community wasn't so helpful. For some reason, whatever is said by a member of either forum somehow warps and becomes something that Jack, Willow or Ian has said. For the most part, it's the users who are fanning the flames that we all want to put out. As a 1st step, maybe we could stop attacking one another and clear the field a bit. 2) On the Rend/Edgenet sideline, it seems the major sticking point is remarks made from the PFO that they see as damaging personally and to their business identity. I can understand where the last thing you want is to have your image and integrity brought into question. 3) Although there seem to be several things on the PFO sideline, the biggest thing seems to be what they see as the hijacking of the PFO identity(the domain). This is also something that I can understand. Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but it feels to me like if we could get these 3 settled, we have a chance to stop a lot of the ugliness. I think we can handle the 1st one ourselves, but the PFO or Renderosity will have to make the 1st move on last 2. What, exactly, is the sticking point with giving poserforum.com back? It seems to me that everyone agrees the name was created by Willow. Jack has even said he offered to give it to them(though it appears the conditions for that, like most things in this mess, have 2 sides to it). --Continued--

Would it be so hard for the sides to agree to something like no further public accusations by the forum admins (in either direction) and seal the understanding with a transfer of the name? If you don't want to give it to them, then sell it. How much are domain names these days? $50-$100, right? Hell, if it means I can finally read the forums without having to worry about them blowing up in my face, I'll buy the domain name back and give it to them as a wedding present. This isn't a multi-billion dollar business we're talking about here. There has to be a way to end this calmly without dragging it into court. Ideas? -=>Donald

Some actual facts: I sold the domain name to EdgeNet back when Jack licensed this site from EdgeNet. I was sick of all that Willow had said and done to me. I quit doing anything Poser related, and thats why there will be no updates on Phi Builder, Map Magic, and no new Poser applications from me. You can thank Willow for that. Now, EdgeNet licenses the domain to Jack, he doesn't have the authority to sell it, so he can say whatever he wants on the matter. If Willow wants the domain name back, she'll have to approach EdgeNet for it. I have no idea what we'd even say to her at this point.

Freakachu: I don't deny you your point of view, but even in your message you bring out what we need to stop doing. You make the distinction that most of the people on the renderosity-side are speaking from personal experience rather than - I can only assume from how you said it - the 'misguided' outrage of those on the PFO-side. Where does that put people like me? I joined the PFO back at the same time I joined the Bryce forum on Delphi. I think it was probably at the iguanasoft URL then. I have been on Willow's bad side a few times, twice in two of the biggest blowouts I've seen (with the exception of this one) on the forum over censorship. I made my feelings strongly known, respectfully, and I was treated respectfully by Willow in public (messages and IRC) and in e-mail. When the PFO/Edgenet split occured, I went with them. When I decided to come back to the forums (posting and not just lurking and watching), I went back there first. I doubt I'm some special case here. Whatever my position and thoughts on what has happened, shouldn't we be thinking about the "poser community" - as so many people have pointed out - and let go of the personal injuries and jibes that people keep bringing up on both sides? -=>Donald

From what Fur says above, I get the feeling that Willow never owned the domain name in the first place. Why, then, does she think she's been robbed? You can't steal something that doesn't belong to her. How did she come to believe that it belonged to her? Maybe someone needs to remind her that it wasn't hers in the first place. It's like if you lived in a rental house and the landlord tells you he's sold the house to another owner, the renter can't claim that his house was stolen illegally. Or, if you kept a library book overdue and they want it back, you can't tell them it's your book and you refuse to pay the overdue fine or give it back. Melanie

Bingo!

Donald--The first part of your message addresses a personal opinion of mine, which is: The PFO chokes off discussion of important issues which they feel hurts the Forum, their image, or their ego. Certain topics, that are of concern to the community, were not up for discussion (i.e. how FD screwed over a shareware designer, or complaints about MC and Poser) in the eyes of those who ran the PFO. Unfortunately, concern about image is NOT in the best interests of the community, nor is choking off meaningful dialog that might make someone (MC or the PFO) look bad. The PFO found it necessary to either delete posts, close topics, or come down harshly on members whenever there was a threat to the PFO's image. The fact that *********** and ******* existed in the forums is a sad tribute to the fact that policy was dictated by ego, and not an interest in furthering the community. (And the BS about "not supporting porn sites" does not hold water with me--Edgenet wasn't displaying pornography, and several other sites that featured erotica were not "blacked" out in the posts). Choking off discussion, and censoring names is hardly IMHO community oriented. continued...

The Poser community is in no danger, if we survived the worst case scenario (Poser being dropped from MC with an indetermined future) we'll survive anything. The fact is, the Poser community will take care of itself. If the PFO went down, another forum will eventually take its place. The competition forces forum leaders to listen to its members. Those who don't listen will eventually close shop. The rivalry has done nothing but good for many of us--we are no longer under the dictates of one forum, we have alternatives. If the PFO wants to bail out early, it's their choice, not the result of some conspiracy. The only folks hurt by these latest events have been the PFO's most loyal followers in an attempt to place blame on Renderosity and the Props Guild. It seems that abusing your friends to hurt your enemies is inexcusable, (and par for the course for the way the PFO is run). And to Roy: Poser's a piece of software--it doesn't pick sides, and it'll still love you at the end of the day. Poser's love is unconditional. Don't drop the software because of the users. (It's akin to not using a hammer because you're anti-union)

One solution would be to dissolve the "poserfroum.com" domain name. If Willow wants it that badly, she can reestablish it on her own, if she's willing to pay for it. Apparently paying for it is not an option for her, but that might be one solution. I suspect, however, that even if she got the name, she would still never be satisfied. She'd still have a bee in her bonnet over past events. Why is it such an issue for her? I would have just given it up and gotten over it long ago if it were my problem. You can't dwell on things forever. Melanie

Melanie: I suspect that the PFO has held out on approaching Edgenet for the domain name to cripple their competition. I suspect that the PFO is holding out for more "compensations" You can't play the martyr if there's no one to crucify you. Donald: The disagreements between the forums and their members, this attitude, is what has opened doors for all kinds of exciting positive stuff to happen in the Poser community--other than being sick of hearing about it--most of the members are currently reaping the benefits. If Willow closes shop--its her choice--not the result of some "conspiracy"

To be honest some people are never happy. There are always those who don't ever feel that they did any wrong( its society,my parents,school, friends, someone looked at me funny, the sign wasn't big enough, the writing was to small, I didn't have enough time to throughly read it,and so on . I am not saying that this is what happened to Willow and Ian and to be honest in my opinion I think the small print got them. You know we hear from Willow and Ian about what happened we also hear from several other people in the know about what happened, but we haven't heard from Jack about what happened because he seems to be the one in the hot seat and from all I read he shouldn't be it should be edgenet or is Jack edgenet. We do need to hear from Jack though to find out the whole and complete story. By the way I was on their mailing list also but under a different name because my name from here wouldn't workand I never got any emails other than the final leeter or another time the server was down. Marge

Just for the record, no I am not in any way related to Edgenet and what I say or do should never reflect on them. As for the issues, I prefer to keep my business dealings with the situation private and not involve others. I will say this though... when things have been worked out I will make them known to people who WISH to know. This forum was created for graphics and the use of them, not for any politics. I have no problem with people voicing their thoughts and opinions, but for the interest of both forums I prefer to keep mine to myself :o) Jack

Thats what I thought.And to be honest I liked the way Jack kept opinions to himself, I only mention you Jack because your name comes up people condemn you without ever hearing your side(which I think is unfair). I started coming here because I had guestions for Metacreations and they sent me here. Though DRAMA can be entertaining this has gotten out of hand and I did come here to learn about computer graphics(3D) and I will continue to come for that. It is hard to get the words to come right sometimes when you are typing. My birds are all fighting today, something must be up.

It's okay Marge :o) Jack

The way I see it, it's sort of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation here. If a person responds to accusations, they offer an opportunity for those who wish to discredit them at any cost to continue and to attempt to involve others in the fight. If a person remains silent, refusing to get involved in a public shouting match, then they open themselves up to attack by those who equate silence with guilt. It's the classic "rock and a hard place" from my perspective. I've seen it happen in other places, at other times, and nothing was gained by any of it. I suspect that, as is usually the case, the truth of the matter lies with neither side, but somewhere in the middle. Someone once said that there are three versions to every story - your version, my version, and what really happened. :^) Kate

You know, after reading a few "special" e-mails from some of the members here after my post I almost lost it. Came close to a nice big tirade (gee, that'd be helpful right about now). I don't know anymore, if it has come down to this kind of nasty attacks in e-mail for a message that (I felt) doesn't attack anyone but tries to help figure out a way that we can all just go back to some kind of peaceful co-existence(my Star Trek gene is taking over) then maybe I was wrong. Maybe it already is too late to do anything. If those e-mails are any indication, then for many this has nothing to do with the good of the Poser community as many people like to say. It's about conflict between individuals who feel they have been wronged and want to see some kind of justice. I can understand that. If you punch me in the face, I'm gonna want to do the same to you. No matter what your take, there is no way that you can tell me that the loss of the Poser Forum would be of benefit to us all. There is just as much singular art and innovative techniques being created there as there are here. And if you think that these resources will just spring up again, why don't you take a long look at the list of Poser related websites that have bit the dust since 1998 (when I first joined the PFO). Forums this alive and active are not the norm.

Donald-- With the resources that have bit the dust, many sites are still operating, and many more have popped up. Thats the nature of things--sites die and new sites are born, and in all of this, new life and new blood enter into the community. The PFO has a pretty talented team who can probably fill the void that the old PFO would leave. And they might fill that void better.

very true DHolm, a consistent traffic like the one we have here is QUITE irregular. ::smiles:: as my own "old school" Trek comes out. I, personally, value your opinions as i do value ALL opinions. As my partner and best friend jack, and so many others have said, i may not agree, but i will STAND BY your right to voice them. This verbal battle, like so many in the past is part of a very sensitive, changing phase. Being a community of artists, such scenarios grow very Passionate. For we ARE Passion's Children :) We fight, we make up, we fight again. And WE ALL defend and come together when threatened or in need of help. Both here at Renderosity and at PFO. There is a great, fierce pride running through both, which does this artist's Soul good. It may not be of a constructive nature, but conflict is a part of life. You know, that ole ying-yang, bing-bang rigamaroll....?? lol To address the original thread, "are we this jaded?" Yes. WE ALL ARE! WE are angels, ALL. WE are devils, ALL. WE are Human. ALL! WE... Are Artists. WE are of Passion and Creation. These are NOT quiet, docile vehicles. But, what of maturity, you ask?? That comes with experience. And my fellow passionate folk, we izz got dat here, right now!! LOL Here's an odd thing... all great art was created due to some conflict or personal struggle by the artist. Be it a broken art, or whatever. Passion FEEDS Art. I'm sure this time next week, all those that have posted here will kick out some of their best, original, and intriguing work, from actively joining in these threads. AND FOR THE RECORD..... This personal conflict between the Hatfields and the McCoys should be BETWEEN the Hatfields and the McCoys. Our neighbors and guests shouldn't be Told to pick up a gun and start afirin'! Excuse the french, but THAT is fuckin' bullshit. Plain and simple. ed edarsenal@aol.com 2D Admin & Bartender at the Virtual Tavern

sorry, Ed, I'm a faerie, not human. Just thought I'd clear that up for ya. =};-}> And BTW, thanks to Jack for taking the time to explain things to me, who was a rather confused little faerie when all this started.

c'mere so i can slap you, thorne!

(sorry about the delay between this and the 1st half of the post..at work and had an emergency call) As for all this being good for the poser community and making us better..how? Maybe it's just me, but I look around and I think we've lost something. I remember a time when the really great artists and "technicians" (for want of a better word) like Hafeli, Anson, Anton posted daily -- sometimes it seemed like those guys never slept. Now many of these guys have walked off in disgust. People used to say "Whoa..that's incredible...how did you do that?" Now, looking at the message bases on both forums, it's more often "Whoa..that's incredible...when are you going to upload it?" Somebody will work days and weeks on a character and picture and usually the 2nd comment that's made is something like "And those boots are cool, can I have them?" Don't get me wrong - guys like Traveler, Yamato and Kozaburo are freaking poser geniuses. But they don't really make you work for it. When Hafeli started really getting into realistic rendering in Poser, he would tell you how he did it but wouldn't upload for you to just take and copy. That made people think and experiment. And that is what gives us real change. Now, it seems like there are only a small handful of innovators (count the number of Nene or slightly changed Nene pictures floating around the net). I don't know, maybe I'm just rambling. Could by like looking back on your days as a kid and wishing you could go back. Sometimes you outgrow places or the places outgrow you. And no, this isn't a goodbye...maybe I'll just keep watching from the background again and continue quietly practicing. Be well. -=>Donald