Isn't there some way we can flag freestuff files so we know they are not to be used for commercial use BEFORE we download them? There must be some way to do this. Marque Deleting yet another file AFTER viewing the readme.

I've often wished we could do that too. It's the reason I rarely download any freestuff now, since I'm doing mostly commercial work, or work with the intention of it one day being commercial. Admins, is there any way to painlessly implement this? Perhaps 2 areas?

There are lots of people who do freestuff that allow you to use it commercially, and it is GOOD enough to use in a commercial render of video. I usually use stuff I buy for that but in some cases if it's allowed I will use freestuff. Most folks don't really care, and I always give credit where credit is due so they can get more work if someone likes what they've done. Marque

Actually, It's about 50/50 on that Ron. I am about to embark on a commercial enterprise and am dreading looking for all those read me files and sorting them out. If the enterprise works out well enough, I actually hope to be able to work with some of the great artists here if they are available rather than serch for talent elsewhere. But I agree, it would be helpful to have a code or something to sort through from the start.

this has been mentioned before, and I think there's an option in the marketplace for this when uploading but no-one seems to use it. Rob

Not the marketplace, the freestuff. If you can't use it commercially if you buy it, I don't buy it...period. Marque

not in the freestuff, just the marketplace

Yeah i know that feeling much i have downloaded only to see the no commercial use, thus, never to be installed. thus I don't use readme in AFA freestuff or state that you can use it any way you want just don't sell it. have fun! render something

I don't know why this should be an issue. I've never posted something to Freestuff but I'm sure there's a form to fill out, just like when we post a message. Why can't there be a checkbox or something that says "PD" for public domain or something like that, to let people know if it's restricted or not? The MarketPlace already has something like this; they have an icon that distinguishes between "for-profit" and "non-profit" purchases. Again, I'm only guessing, but I'm sure there's a checkbox or something that people have to fill out to tell the system if what they're selling is for profit or for charity.

I have about all the Poser free stuff ever released, ever, anywhere. Since '98. And about 75% of it, maybe more, is OK for commmercial renders. And honestly, I can't imagine why not? Why put out a freebie that is not to be used for commercial renders? Why limit it? I mean, not allowing reselling, that's obvious. And asking for a credit is prefectly reasonable. But no commercial renders? I don't quite get the logic there. Can someone enlighten me - I must have missed something. I'm not being ironic, I really mean it - tell me the logic. (I'm always on about how this place started with freebies, before there was a marketplace at all, when the only people selling models for Poser was Zygote. This place is supposed to be a community.) :] FishNose

That was then fishnose. now it is all sacret ground/mesh. and Wampire . there is no non-profit only items in the store. if you buy it, you have limit use of the licence and use any purchased item in commercial renders.

Sigh.... them wuz the days... Mind you, it is kind of nice that the Poser community has grown so huge - almost mainstream. The commercialization of it all is an indication of that. In 5 years from now there will be millions and millions of Posers all over the globe, you mark my words. :] FishNose

heyas; right, c1rcle. there's a 'non commercial use' thing in the marketplace, where there's no use for one. honestly, how can you sell something that people can't use in commercial renders? it needs to be in the free stuff, where that is a real issue. although some free stuff say to ask first, so... is that commercial-okay or non-commercial? depends on if you ask. and if they say no. i dunno. anyway, we went through this before, and nothing came of it. but if people want to mark their thumbnails with the 'non-commercial,' 'public domain,' and 'no (commercial) restriction' icons, they're still at my goodies page where you can nab them.

I have found that if I want to use some freestuff in my renders and ask the person that made it if it is okay to use in a piece of work that possibly will be purchased, they have always said yes. There is also a lot of freebie stuff that states that it is okay for a commercial render but not to redistribute or sell :) I just think it depends on the artist that made it :) I also agree that if you make something to sell and restrict the usage as far as artwork goes, then you shouldn't be selling it. I'm sure not going to spend even 5 bucks for something that I have to worry about using in any artwork that I make. Pendy

The renderosity Marketplace licence, THE licence that binds items that are to be sold at the marketplace. the broken out part is the relivant part. only spaces added to locate that clause. To protect the Buyer: Buyer is hereby granted a non-exclusive, non-transferable license to use all of the contents of the encapsulating archive file. Artist maintains that all items in the archive are their original work, or are derivative works from something found, and verified, to be in the public domain. Artist maintains they legally possess the power to grant the Buyer this license for all enclosed materials. Buyer may use the materials in any personal projects or commercial projects, as long as the Artist 's work is protected from extraction and none of the items above have been violated. Buyer may make a single backup copy of this archive file, for personal archival purposes only. Buyer retains this license, even if the Artist stops selling this work at a later date, or decides to charge a different price. The Artist may only revoke this license, if it is shown that a Buyer has previously violated the terms and conditions above.

I stand corrected on the profit vs. non-profit remark; it's been a while since I was in there. What I was confusing it with is the "R" icon that means Renderosity exclusive, and the "C" icon that means proceeds donated to charity. The point, however, remains valid. Renderosity must be putting something on the Marketplace submission form that says something like "Indicate here if it's a Renderosity exclusive" or "indicate if proceeds go to charity." They MUST...how else will the database know to display the "R" or "C" icon with the item? So, the whole point is, if they can do THAT for commercial stuff, why can't they just add a field to the Free Stuff database and submission form that says, "indicate if this item is for non-commercial use only" or "indicate if this item is freely distributable" or whatever verbage you like, and create an icon for that, which would then show up next to each Free Stuff item the same way the "R" and the "C" do for each MarketPlace item. It ain't hard to do, and it makes the download pages--regardless of whether their Free Stuff or MarketPlace--more consistent overall. End of confusion; end of problem.

It would be nice to be able to afford every obscure little piece that one might need for work. But unfortunately I'm not one of them. What I need for a cover one day doesn't mean I'll every use it again in another. I do buy the main things... Vic, Mike.. basic versatile clothes and hair again versatility is a must. Free stuff is a gods send and I always let the authors know when I use something. I do wish there was a way though that we could know before downloading if commercial renders are approved or not. I'd think Rendo would do this since it would help every ones's bandwidth. The author who has such restrictions wouldn't get tons of people downloading... and we would also save. Will take the opportunity to thank the free stuff contributors one more time. Not all of us are skilled in creating anything but pictures.

I agree that it would be nice if things were flagged by whether they could be used for commercial renders or not. However, I'll bet that if you put a checkbox on the upload screen you'll get hundreds of miscatalogued freebies where the readme is at odds with the checkbox. In any case, if you want to see some kind of action on this, you should take it to the community ideas forum, rather than the poser forum. Just now is probably a bad time since Renderosity is short by one programmer. Just now they don't have anybody spare to make changes in the way the site works.

You'd be surprised what you can get if you just ask. I've got a few freebies up, and the read-me says you must ask to use it commericially. No one has (my stuff's not that good, to be honest), but if someone did, there's like a 99.99% chance I'd say yes and just ask for a credit (unless my thingie is very prominent and important to the piece and there's a huge profit margin on it, in which case, I want a piece of that. And a snowball from Hell, since it probably will have frozen over.) Why don't I just say it's freely usable for commericial use if a credit's given? 1) Asking makes sure I know about it. 2) There are some things that offend me and I don't want it used for. 3) Butt-coverage. 4) Ya never know. Hell might freeze. Oops, that kind of strayed. Anyway, I think an icon thing might be good, but it'd be nice if it considered the inbetween cases like me, where commercial usage permission is obtainable but not default.

Every person that I've asked for permission from has said yes. If you really like an item for your project email the author.

The point behind the restriction is the hope that this world may run free of charge someday, as the freebies were unto you. This is part of my intrigue with the render society. Currenct needs backing. We back our money in gold,..., but ultra hight tech cyber renders are at the cutting edge of the world. Unlees currency becomes simpler to acuire and distribute, than working for old man Johnson(Humping logs) everyday every day, people are'nt going to learn any real respect or wisdom from greenback. At that we may as well just deal in Art. If you ask me the greater portion of the graphics displayed here are as excuisite as most national bills. The underlaying...if anybody has a pun for this please areply with it, is that you do'nt let two beasts of these magnitudes lay near one another without some sort/form of contrast. I myself plan to fuel this fire by offering both free and pay models in my dominion. When way or another(If not both...) the world is going to bend with this. We all just want to be there whence She lays it on Her, I'm sure! So, do'nt be discouraged. Art is really only about 60% the property of the creator, any time any where. Once an artisans peice has been worked on and altered by this figures recipricol(I think this is the word) margin, a new name is called by from for the newer creator of the subject/product... = )

Attached Link: http://pangaea.topcities.com/home.htm

I agree with you! The ONLY time I keep a file that has a restriction on it, is when it is for an image of a trademarked work, i.e. something from a comic book, or something. The files that don't have readme's or don't allow commercial use for renders/animations, go straight to the Recycle Bin. I just can't keep up with everything I download, so I make sure it is ok to use in commercial images. And on everything I upload, I also commercial use too. I mean, why make it free if you can't use it in commercial images? That's kind of only "half-free". The only time I agree with making something free not for commercial use is if it is a free file of a tradmarked object/texture, i.e. spiderman, the hulk, from a game or something, and you just want to make a fun image, that is not for commercial stuff. ben

"Why should someone give you something that you can make money from?" Because it's free. What you do with it, as long as you don't make money from selling the file itself, should be up to you. "Why shouldn't the original creator make money from his/her own product?" Because it's free. "Would you give them a portion of your profits or wages?" If they were selling it, and I wanted to buy it, yes. If they give it away for free, and specify not to use it for commercial artwork, then I won't use it, unless it is so supercool I have to secure permission, etc. "But why should I help you make a living with my work?" You don't have to. I've uploaded various files, and if people want to use them in a commercial render/animation, more power to them, as long as it isn't promoting anything illegal or pornographic. I chose to give those files away for free, so it's up to the artist to use them. But I respect the rights of the creator if they don't want their free stuff used in a commercial image. "I probably could have tried to sell the stuff, but again, I thought of helping others get going with Poser like I was doing a year ago when I first started." Yes, I am hoping to create some products for sale soon, but also give away my "training" products, like my RoboChicken I made. I respect the wishes of the free stuff creator, if they do not want their free stuff to be used in commercial work. When they make this specification, the file usually will never get installed and end up in the recycle bin. It's just my opinion that when I download something, I don't want to worry whether or not I can use it in a picture I want to sell in the future. I also want people to be happy when they see they can use it in commercial work too. I guess it annoys me to see 1000 strings attached for something that is 'free'. This is just my opinion. Ben MessianicArt.com

While I tend to agree with you Ron, you're onto a losing argument. People in the main see "free" as meaning "Do anything you want with it"... Free Speech - say anything you wanteven if it offends people Free Speech - ram your beliefs down another's throat Freedom of Expression - to create anything you want even if it's offensive Free Downloads - Take and do whatever you want regardless Free Society - Provided you live by that societies RULES and LAWS... Oh wait, that last one kinda screws the concept doesn't it. Oh well. :) and so on. Free unfortunately tends to be used to the convenience of the person using the word. Perhaps Freestuff is the wrong word to use now. The poser userbase has grown so much and now includes so many people of different countries and belief structures that they all have their own definition of what free means. So, perhaps these files that people can download without paying the author a dime should be called "Shared Stuff" because the author is sharing with the userbase. Sharing immediately comes with it's own strings already built into the word and should make things a lot easier. I don't restrict my "Shared Files" except for resale/redistribution and only commercially restrict derivative works from movies and literature that require a seperate license from the originator to use. Why? Because frankly I don't mind people making images and trying to sell them. Yes, it is a form of profiteering on the generosity of others and it is not a given right to do this, permission should be sought first unless the author gives this permission in the read me. On that note. I agree with the other people in this thread. It would be nice to see a radio button or something in the freestuff section of this site, similar at least in concept to what LadySilverMage has done at 3DArena. So people can see which files they are allowed to profiteer from, and which are restricted to all but personal use. Not from any sense of greed, but from a sense of reason. Ms_Outlaw states a damn good reason for this. Bandwidth. There are apparently a lot of people who want to use generosity to profit from, so if they can see in advance which files they can do this with they'll only download those files. Thereby saving bandwidth from files they can't use. It won't make any difference for the freestuff leeches, those who download everything just to have it in case they might use it one day, maybe but it might save just enough. Who knows? There are good points made all round here. Free doesn't mean "do what you want with it", it means you don't pay to download it. But it would make major sense to have some indicator in the free area so at a glance a downloader can tell. It saves bandwidth, it prevents people whining because they can't profit on generosity, it saves a bit of bandwidth and in the end everybody is happy. Plus, those who give free files don't have to put up with continual threads complaining about their generosity in sharing. Win win.

LOL... Yeah, I'm familiar with the "get it while you can principle" having been there myself. By my definition I'm a leech also. I have a multitude of files I will probably never use now dating back quite some time. The reason I probably won't use these things I've downloaded is because I now make my own. It's thanks to people who shared their work that I can do this. Unfortunately back then bandwidth wasn't such an issue. The grab it while you can principle today is what kills bandwidth. But as you say, if you don't get it now it's gone, if you get it now you help towards it being gone. Oh well, in another decade we'll all sit back and laugh at the bandwidth problems of today.

You know, it's funny. Up to now, I havne't sold anything, everything I've done has been for free. And I allow commercial renders using my stuff. I put stuff out for free because I enjoy seeing people use my work. The reason I allow commercial usage is simple. It goes back to the "whose art is it anyway" debate. Some people feel if you don't make all your models, textures, lighting etc., then it really isn't your art. I don't feel that way, and I don't feel any need to dictate what you can do with YOUR render. Now, I don't allow poeple to sell the actual models and textures I make, and I like the occasional credit when someone uses something of mine, but you put the time, effort and talent into making a render, it's YOUR art. I also disagree with the term profiteering. When the ceo and his/her cronies walk away with millions while their employees lose all their benefits, that's profiteering. When a ISP in a small town suspiciously like the one a cetain lemur inhabits, buys out the competition, then raises prices and cuts back from 56K to 33.6, that profiteering. An artist who makes a couple of bucks selling a print of art they made using some item from freestuff is hardly profiteering. There is a pretty big difference between profiting and profiteering. I do agree that, being free, this decision should be in the hands of the creators. I also agree some sort of flag on whether or not commercial use is allowed should be implemented for free stuff. 3-D Arena does this nicely, so could Renderosity. Regards- Lemurtek

Thanks, Ron, for the nice words about my free things. If they were better, I'd probably sell them in the store, but I'm just happy if they fit the bill for someone who might need them to complete a render. Sometimes it's those little insignificant, sundry items that are needed to put a tiny detail in an image to make it just right. I guess the way I feel is, if something is good enough for people to want to use in a commercial render, then why didn't the creator of that object put it up for sale in the first place rather than in free suff? Why give it away if it's something people would be willing to pay for? There wouldn't be anything to quibble about for the creator re: commercial or non-commercial if he/she sold it in the first place. People wouldn't want to use it in a commercial project if it wasn't good enough, anyway. Someone needing it for commercial use would be more than willing to pay for it, if it's of commerical quality. I just wish some of the readme files in the freebies would be a little more polite about it. Most of them are very polite and state it in a nice way, but I've read a few readme's that basically say something like, "You'd better not use this in commerical stuff or I'll be really mad." Not in those exact words, the but sentiment is there. Those are the ones that go into my recycle bin. If they basically don't want you to use the item, then don't put it up for grabs. What's the point, other than to say, "Hey, look what I can make! See how good it is, but don't you dare use it." LOL Oh, well. I'm just happy if someone gets some use out of what I've contributed. I feel flattered when someone e-mails me to say one of my items really helped a project for them. I made a really simple Egyptian collar about three years ago, and an author of children's e-books used it in a story he sells, and he sent me some images from the book to show how it turned out. I was so tickled! I appreciated that someone actually thought it was good enough to actually use. Anyway, just my thoughts. Melanie

OK, profiteering was the wrong word. I'll remove two e's - profiting. Slightly different definition there.

*"Here's some logic for you.

Why should someone give you something that you can make money from?

Why shouldn't the original creator make money from his/her own product? Would you give them a portion of your profits or wages?"*

Many who create free items also sell. It's good business to have the same useage in their free stuff as in their commercial. I won't buy from someone who puts restrictions on the free items they give out to drum up business. Anyone who uses poser knows how the folders are set up. It isn't logical to expect people to keep track of items that are restricted.

I think there are a few points worth discussion here, and they are getting mixed together...

1. I absolutely respect someone's right to restrict the use of an item they give away for free. It's theirs, go ahead and restrict it any way they want.

2. Like many others here I simply never install anything that isn't CLEARLY marked as OK for commercial use. I don't have the time keep track when I am working on a project and I don't want to be wrong. To be honest, that's not a problem because often the free stuff isn't suitable.

3. This is in fact the same reason why I make sure my clients don't rely on GPL licensed software, the restrictions simply make it too dangerous to keep around in a commercial environment.

4. I don't think it is wrong to simply wish for a checkmark or an indication so we don't go wasting our time on the download. Seems like a win-win. They don't want me to use it, and I don't want to use it - so why not mark it that way?

5. I see a lot of vendors here use free items in their promotional renders - specifically a  certain well known hair item. I wonder how they justify that when the readme clearly states you can't use it that way?

soulhuntre, re point 5, I don't know which hair item you mean but remember that the merchant may have obtained permission from the maker to use the item in store renders. As several people have said, a lot of makers are happy to give permission if asked.

Ron,
Not everyone has the time to categorize each and every item in their poser folder. I know I don't with two kids and two businesses.

3D Arena is set up very well. A comparison to Renderosity in size and content isn't very fair since they are so new in comparison. They are better organized though.

How difficult would a checkbox be to add? I'm not suggesting retroactive, that would be horrendous.
OR, until/when Renderosity can organize the free section better, the user could add themselves something like "per/com" for personal or commercial or just "per" or "com". I plan to with my next freestuff upload.

I look at it this way - all the items offered, both in freestuff and the marketplace, are TOOLS to be used in creating our "art" - no different than paints, brushes, canvas, etc, used in more traditional works. Sooo...putting up an item in freestuff and saying "no commercial renders" is the equivalent of handing someone a free paintbrush and telling them "you can paint all the pictures you want with this brush, but you can't ever sell any of them." So, I'm with those who delete the non-commercial restricted items. Who needs 'em? I vote for a checkbox, too. Save me a lot of time, hassle, and hard drive space.

The commercial/noncommercial checkbox can just start from this point on. It would be a nightmare for someone to have to go through every item already posted (unless the authors themselves can go in and edit their own entries with the checkbox). I think any new items being contributed to the free stuff section should show this checkbox. I vote for that! I started created a personal database about a year ago to keep track of all the things I downloaded as to whether they do allow commercial use or not, who created it, and the CD number I can find it on, but it got to be too big a project and I slacked off. I have 18 CDs of downloads and I think I stopped entering the database at about disk 5 or so. It took too much of my time to work on it. Putting a checkbox in the free stuff section would spare me the need to document all my downloads, because I'd know everything from this point on would be nothing but commercial use allowed. Melanie

Not to mention it would save peoples bandwidth since if I knew it was restricted, I wouldn't download.

it get's more difficult when you d/l something and don't use it for a while. Say the person who made the freebie is no longer contactable is it then open season or does the license still apply? Rob

"it get's more difficult when you d/l something and don't use it for a while. Say the person who made the freebie is no longer contactable is it then open season or does the license still apply?" It applies. Licenses do not "expire" just because you can't contact someone.

...then the artist should darned well make an effort to be sure the rest of us have current contact information Absolutely, brilliant idea, and they can also make absolutely certain that all the anonymous people that have downloaded the file know about it as well heck, send a new file to all of them, even when it's weeks, months, maybe even a year old. I mean, it's not like ISPs change, websites get cancelled, email addresses change, net access gets cut completely, people move house, move school, leave college or whatever. No, let's not let life interfere with this vendetta against free stuff givers. Web based email? You mean like Yahoo or Hotmail? Oh wait, isn't one of them changing things and charging now? Need net access to read mail or pay to get it delivered? Hrrmm. There are times when it is completely beyond the ability of someone to update things. Throughout the thread people have already stated that they download stuff and sometimes don't use it for months. Well, a month is a long time around here. Heck 24 hours is a long time for a website and download link around here. I know several people who for no fault of their own have no net access, what are they supposed to do? Huh? People like Bonestructure and Wizzard and a few others. Oh well, damn their hides for giving something for nothing and not being around to contact. Ooopsy. Well hell, let's lynch them for being so damnably inconsiderate if they ever get back online. Sheesh. I give up. To hell with it.

"In effect, they've violated the license agreement by removing any chance of complying." Legally this is simply untrue for the types of readme files normally given. If it says "no commercial use unless you get my permission" then you cannot use it without permission, even if they dissapear. That's the end of that. That's one fo the reasons I don't bother installing things I can use commercially - there is simply no reason to get used to using somethign that can be taken away from me :)

Geez, this string is starting to make me want to pull my freebies. Whine and moan, whine and moan. I agree now that a checkbox addition would be nice. It'd help people get exactly what they want, and as an added perk, it would stop some of the griping. Geez. No one is entitled to a freebie. I also agree with whoever said that "free" is the wrong term. You do pay a price, and the price is obeying the terms the author sets down. If you don't like them, don't use it. To use a freebie against the rules set down for it because you don't like them is just like using a warez copy of Lightwave because you don't like the price. I'm sure someone's going to jump down my throat for that, so if you do, tell me how's it's different. Here's how I say it's the same: Lightwave says you can use their product if you give them X dollars; a freebie author says you can use their product if you obey Y rules. Different price, same principle. If Lightwave's ordering goes down and you can't buy it, does that give you the right to use a warez copy? If not, then not being able to contact a freebie author doesn't give anyone the right to violate the TOS that is the readme. Whew. ::blows out a puff of sulfury smoke:: I think I've exhausted my fire for the night. Next!

Attached Link: http://www.3-darena.com/freebies/index.php

Ron, I'm sorry if you thought that post was directed at you. It wasn't; I meant it as a general thing. I respect you a great deal, and you've been very helpful to the community. This topic relates back to one of my hot buttons. ^_~ As for if a freebie can be used if the person can't be found, I would suggest anyone who does so contact a lawyer first to see what butt-coverage they need, especially if there's a potential for a great deal of money in their commercial project. There may be legal requirements to make some extra effort to find them, like posting messages on forums or something.

FyreSpiryt, thanks for the explanation and compliment! It's safe to say the whole Free Stuff topic generates a lot of emotion or heated debates. *** I grew to think there is a strong recommendation for just giving something away for free, with absolutely no strings attached. I was ready for bed when I saw a request someone made for Mike's dress shirt and pants to be converted with Tailor for Mike's heavy body morph. I figured "what the hell," and stayed up an hour later to do the job. I decided this is time to release a statement that basically said I have no licensing requirements or requests. Besides I don't own the clothes, DAZ does, and you still need the original clothing pack! I get up in the morning only to see that the clothes will be used to dress Jon Wayne Gacy, a serial killer. God I almost puked! I don't think serial killers should be glorified or put up in someone's gallery. I still don't understand the reason why this artist has a fascination for serial kilers. Hey, you all have a point if you say maybe we shouldn't attach any strings. I don't really like strings attached. But I don't feel so good about this freebie I created. Ron

Well, I posted a link to this thread in the community ideas forum and Tammy said they plan to make some changes to the free stuff and they'll put the checkbox on the list.

Well thanks Ajax and thanks Tammy, that's good news. Hopefully it'll help to save time and trouble for a lot of people. :)