Jackson, I think you've summed it up perfectly.

Oh I see value in the Poser 4 manual. Only in the tutorial itself where it shows you how to import more then one figure (the man and the dog) and place them separately. That's about as far as it goes. Everything else I think is better to just hit the various sites and ask.

May I recommend poetry with a simple rhyme scheme (such as couplets) to reinforce the learning process?

No, no, hauksdottir! He should write the manual entirely in haiku!

To load a figure
Click on the double check-marks
Watch as it appears

The feet are broken
They remain glued to the floor
Turn off the IK

I think I'll write it in Esperanto.

Pam I don't mince words? But, but... I've just sold the rights to "Eat Your Words and Enjoy It: A cookbook for Starving Writers". With such sample chapters as... Pepper Your Prose With Pithy Aphorisms Stirring Orations Until they Gell Mince Your Words with Meaty Allusions ... and so on. Dratskies! Back to the drawing board. :( Carolly

LOL!! Now that sounds like a book a person could sink their teeth into! ;)

Anthony, not Esperanto! OK, let's not forget to tell him anything we liked about the P4 manual and hope to see in P5's, as well as where it misses the mark (things like Crosstalk or the Millennium figures, which it long predates, not fair). LIKE: The couple pages on "What's New in Poser4?" that's right up front, even before installation instructions, and includes a page reference for each. You know that's what we're all going to want to look at the minute we get our hot little hands on P5. I want to try out the goodies first (and also know if something we rely on has been majorly changed or replaced). DISLIKE: True, you see the same "dumb" questions over and over, and things that folks react to like you're revealing a marvelous secret - that are right there in the manual. However, there ARE a lot of things that were given a fast mention and screenshot, but no practical info on its use. One example, depth cueing. Limited manual space could have been used more productively. WANT: Specialized icons like Anthony's "New" icons in ProPack guide - "hot tip", "warning", "pro tip", etc. So newbies know what they need or can skip, and we can all use for fast reference.

This sucks. I wrote a comprehensive response to this thread, and it was dumped again due to some glitch. I'll make it brief this time. Doug & Jackson, you failed to recognize the evidence that was presented to you. There is such a lack of sifnificant information in the Poser manual that it is useless to so many people. This is not our fault or blame, but the blame or fault of the writers, or the company that paid them. Heck, even the tutorial stinks. I'm sorry you don't like "hand-holding," but it is one of the major draws of the Renderosity community. I thank Renderosity for finally helping me to begin learning Poser when it had sat on my shelf for 4-5 years, and had remained a mystery to me. *** A good manual requires more than someone who knows the softweare intimately. It requires a good writer, and one who knows the audience. A good manual writer assumes the reader doesn't know the program at all.. A good manual writer uses good comprehensive language, and isn't afraid to illustrate information every step of the way. A good manual writer would read his/her own work, and actually see if it makes sense. This would of course require "pretending" to be someone else. *** I'm encouraged by all the others who feel the way I do about the Poser manual. I also appreciate all the support I've received. I'll continue to do what I can to learn as well as help others learn. And yes, I can know something and learn at the same time!!! Ron

Ron, As I've said before... "Poser for Dummies" is your calling in life. Every written word you put here, is keeping another "Ron Knights" from undertanding how to use Poser. Doug

OH, gosh, I thought you were actually complimenting me before. I thought you meant I could write a good Poser book! I submit to you that the good people at Renderosity, including myself, have done a great deal to help teach Poser users. I've been told that countless times, and told the same to many others here.

How did you guys manage to turn this into an argument??...LOL Pose on....:) Beav

IMHO the manual, any manual is not meant to be the font of all knowledge it's just meant to be a guide or an outline of what the basics of the program are, most of what we have for poser these days doesn't come from the manual. you just have to look around and you'll see there are so many things that people discovered that poser can do that weren't in the manual. The manual will only ever go so far with the program but it has to stop at a point and it's usually not gone far enough, not really any fault of the writer or the programmers it's the users ourselves who make the manual obscelete in the end. Rob

IMHO the manual, any manual is not meant to be the font of all knowledge it's just meant to be a guide or an outline of what the basics of the program are, most of what we have for poser these days doesn't come from the manual. you just have to look around and you'll see there are so many things that people discovered that poser can do that weren't in the manual. The manual will only ever go so far with the program but it has to stop at a point and it's usually not gone far enough, not really any fault of the writer or the programmers it's the users ourselves who make the manual obscelete in the end. Rob

My friends, I have simple expectations when I purchase a product. I expect I will be provided with a product that works. I expect to be informed how to use that product, in a manual, or in tutorials that come with that manual. I expect good Help Files that will fill in any blanks. If that product is lacking in this mission, I will be one of the first to complain, and rightfully. At the same time, I have chosen to do my best to be a part of the solution. **** I want to state very clearly that I would not have gotten anywhere with Poser if it hadn't been for the help of the good people of Renderosity. Many of you have stuck with me from the beginning, including some very hard times in which I quite frankly was not a very nice person to communicate with. Doug Sturk is one shining example. Doug and I don't always agree, but we have managed to communicate on a periodic basis. I am thrilled that Doug takes the time from his obviously busy schedule to communicate. I am ecstatic whenever Doug gives me a compliment. I have always regarded Doug as "one of the Poser Gods," and just love all his superhero work (including "Shirtless Girl!"). Heck, I love all Doug's "commercial products" too! Doug's contributions to the 3D Comic Collective were responsible for making it such a fine organization and site. His contributions undoubtedly were essential for encouraging the growth of many fine artists. I'm sincerely sorry if any of my comments in this or any other thread may have given the wrong idea in that regard. Ron

note to anthony- We need to spec a tougher manual cover material so that Wolf359's table leg doesn't erode a hole through to page 57. :) Seriously, the Poser 4 manual suffered from being an inherited work, written by staff that was happy to be on the project, yet bound by much of the bad copy that couldn't be replaced, and by timelines that had engineering finishing features after the manual went to print. Not optimal... The project Anthony is working on is coming together much smoother than any previous version of Poser (whoops, I said it...) has. Kupa

Tougher cover? I think we need to spec out some really nice canvas or something, cuz folks'll be FRAMING this new book! :-) A

Whoops??? :-)

I didn't have the time to read this entire soap opera but may I suggest looking at the online help RTFOH? On page 44 you will find: " Option/Alt-click the Editing toolbar. The orientation toggles between horizontal and vertical." Similarly, the 3DS file format is mentioned in several places by its full name, "3D Studio" format, along with explanations of all the import/export switches. I remember when all software came with heavy spiral bound comprehensive manuals. Almost everyone abandoned these for a simple reason, cost. No doubt calls to technical support also indicated that not that many people were reading them anyway. Today, the usual practice is to include a manual that covers the basics. More comprehensive help is usually available via online help files. I'm sure people may not like being told to "read the manual," but I'm sure some people who asked innocent questions didn't appreciate the curt response they received recently either. Without naming names, this continual breast-beating and self-serving bombast is getting really old.

lmckenzie, "Without naming names, this continual breast-beating and self-serving bombast is getting really old." Gosh we must be watching different tv shows or something?! I am really amazed this whole debate has lasted this long. "I'm not going to name names." Grin. Now I'm not supposed to guess who you're talking about?! Gee, I must be too smart for these rules?! There is a difference between: 1.) Telling someone to read a manual that has already been read, and hasn't provided the necessary info. 2.) Giving someone the answer, then suggesting they can invest some time to read the same answer that has already been answered several times this week. The same answer is also found in FAQ at the top of each page.

"The same answer is also found in FAQ at the top of each page." Hmmm, which would make repeating it redundant? If anyone felt they were included in my comment, then I suppose there must be a reason for that. The items you mentioned are included in the product documentation, as I pointed out, just not where you were looking for them. Personally, I hate PDF docs, but I can't blame CL for using them. You just have to slog through and dig it out. I really don't think anyone begrudges you your hard work or your contributions, they're commendable. On the other hand, I sometimes think a better theme than "read the manual," would be "read my countless other posts," for (slight) variations on the same theme. But that's just my opinion and occasionally, I have to rattle your cage about it. Nothing personal, just business. And that, Regis, is my final answer. Sorry, but I'm unticking the 'Email me when someone replies' on this one.

Thank you for the compliments, and you know rattling the cage is often beneficial. By the way, you'd need to uncheck "email me" on all your posts before it would work.. In otherwords, deleting all your posts would likely work. Maybe we've gone as far with this "theme" as we can?!

We often come to expect too much of manuals. If it was as easy as learning from a book/manual all we'd need are libraries and not institutions of learning. Unfortunately, when we learn is often based on context. If it's needed and can be found then it will be useful. Some don't wish to read a book over and over again, even if it is at the mechanics shop, doctor's office, or elsewhere. Some don't learn if they're not in front of the computer. Manuals at the very least should explain the who, what, when, where, and why of every button, every switch, every choice, etc. Better yet they should do that in the context of tutorials so that some context is given to the use of the button, switch, choice etc. For me the most useful part of a comprehensive guide could be the index. Especially because I like using index type searches I like to have the manual online. Unfortunately, I don't use the same words as the tech writers. For example, I don't remember the exact circumstances, but I wanted to know how to make the foot invisible. I think I looked in the manual's index under foot, under visible, under invisible, later, I found out the manual had it under amputate?! Another one for me is that I cannot get used to calling or thinking of what should be called the upper arm, the shoulder. Therefore, I think a great addition would be a synonym guide. Finally, Curious Labs, since people successfully using their program will only serve to help them, should organize the wealth of information supplied in the various forums and put those together in a centrally located, searchable, online book.

By the way, the amputate example can be found in the P3 manual. Amputate cannot be found in the P4 index, however, information on this topic can be found by looking in the index under "visible". Now that may seem like an appropriate correction, however, what about all those new P3 users (getting the program for free) who are learning to call it "amputate". When they get to P4 or P5 they're not going to know where to look.

BAM, Some good points. A thorough (and thoroughly cross-referenced) index is extremely important. Amputate: see Delete p.., Invisible p.. (because some people might be replacing a body part and others just hiding it... with collision detection listed as a future item this distinction will probably be important). So is a glossary (and it might have thumbnails or small diagrams to illustrate the word in question if necessary). I'd put this near the front, just after "conventions used in this manual". It looks like a diagram of the body parts for a couple of the typical humanoids would be vital, too. I'd like to see one for the mesh and another for the standard boning system. This can be in back. Admittedly, DAZ or someone might come out later with another figure based upon a different division of the mesh, but most people would start working with the standard figures. CuriousLabs can't gather all that information from the mushrooming websites and repurpose it. Nobody can. Legally. What each person writes is theirs to publish as they see fit. Example, I've had articles on animation published in The Cursor and the CGDA Report (both are professional tradezines)... they got first time publishing rights only, and I'll get everything collected into a book someday. Suppose that this was on the web instead, and a publisher gathered all my material and lumped it with other people's animation tutorials into a searchable database without even telling us? We'd lose all economic value to our work, and the publisher who picked the fruits of our labor would be the only one eating. Simply being published isn't enough compensation for being ripped off. It is like telling a songwriter that they should be flattered when their work is stolen and mixed with the stew. There is another problem with that type of database. It would require a full-time librarian who was also a discerning user. Suppose he finds 4 tutorials on constructing a minotaur, but one of the writers is talking through his hat... by including bad information on an official site, he is giving it legitimacy. Suppose that the database includes locators for free stuff, and he found 6 minotaurs, one of them stolen. Including all of the minotaurs would put him on the horns of a dilemna... just before being gored by the lawyers. Carolly

I want to thank Kupa (and "company") for providing a clear explanation of how the Poser Manual got to its current state. It's hard, if not impossible, to inherit another company's project and program, and get it all together properly. I have a very good feeling about Steve, and Curious Labs. I have an idea that the Poser 5 manual will knock our socks off. I really hope they pull out the stops, and give us everything we've dreamed of here!