Wow. OK, lots of feedback on this whole license agreement protection thing. I can tell this is going to be a long post already. :) Ill start with some background; hopefully that will make things clearer not only about what DAZs practices are, but why they are that way.

Its easy to be restrictive in enforcing a license agreement, especially when one chooses to prohibit any type of distribution of any files that might somehow, sometime, somewhere be damaging to the sales of the product. Its easy to state such a stance in a way that is clear, concise and easily understood. On the other hand, its tricky to try to foster the free trade of add-ons and modifications for ones product without jeopardizing the sales of that product and opening the situation up to confusion and misunderstanding. That said, DAZ has chosen to pursue the latter option.

This is because we see a huge value in promoting the free trade of add-ons and modifications 99% of the time. We realize that our small company will not be able to provide all of the options that every individual in the market will want, and we realize that it will be better for our product line and the market in general to have many others able to fill those needs. We also know that the vast majority of users and developers in this market are not trying to do anything wrong. On the contrary, they are just doing what they enjoy or providing a service (for free or for money). This is wonderful and it benefits all of us.

As Steve has mentioned, the difficulties arise when people (usually inadvertently) distribute files that were created based upon another artists product, and yet which largely circumvent the need for that product. Im sure that you can all see the problem with this situation. Again, it would be easy to eradicate this problem by communicating clearly that no derivative files may be distributed in any manner. We actually debated whether to do this on day one, in clarifying our stance on the distribution of our .cr2 files, and we feel that we made a wise decision to allow such distribution. However, that decision left us with a gray area to deal with; some things are permissible and others are not. Again, this is tricky ground for any business to tread. We want people to be able to use Victoria 1's .cr2 and freely distribute it with any modifications they may have made to it. Those of you familiar with the nature of the products can see how distributing Victoria 2's .cr2 would not be good for our business, however. No one would buy Victoria 2; they would buy Victoria 1 and then get the freely distributed Victoria 2 .cr2 from someone else.

OK, thought Id start out with any easy case of circumvention. Hope the Victoria .cr2 example made sense to everyone. ;) Lets reaffirm the basic concept with another situation that most people should understand. Say someone purchased Jim Burtons Super Model Morph Vickie, DAZs Victoria, and Codetwisters The Tailor. Then using The Tailor he creates a morph target for Victoria that gives her the shape of SMMV. Nothing wrong so far. Then he distributes that morph. Now admittedly, hes not giving away SMMV itself; this new Victoria .cr2 will not have everything that the original product has, and it will be different in some ways. However, many people would choose not to buy SMMV if they could get this less expensive version that accomplishes most of what they may have wanted with SMMV. So again, this isnt right because the new distributed file was created by using Jim Burtons work, and it seriously hinders the sale of the very product it was based on.

Still with me? Lets try a trickier example, then. :) Say someone has Michael 2, and she really wants the clothing items in DAZs Combat Pak to fit some of his morphs. And she achieves that with The Tailor. No problem so far. But say she wants to distribute her morphs. Will that be permissible under the license agreement for Michael 2? Good question. Id recommend anyone considering any project in such a gray area to contact the owner of the product that may be damaged by its distribution. In this case, however, I can tell you that DAZ wouldnt mind if you took every Michael 2 morph and put it on the Combat Pak and distributed that. Why not? Because we dont feel that this would jeopardize the sale of Michael 2 as much as it would help. Some of the reasoning here has to do with the nature of these clothing items. An item like a tank top is not very usable without a body underneath that matches, so almost everyone will want to use Michael 2 in conjunction with an M2 version of this shirt. And we feel that the pants, while they cover enough of the underlying figure that Michael 2 wouldnt be necessary for their use, are still not a big enough disincentive for many people to buy M2. After all, even with a lot of morphs, these pants just dont accomplish much of what Michael 2 does.

But thats just our thinking here at DAZ. Other developers could easily decide that this is a serious enough threat to their specific product that they will not want to allow such distribution. For example, if youre using The Taylor to make a bikini fit Voluptuous Vicki, I wouldnt think that Wyrmmaster would mind. It will be pretty useless without Voluptuous Vicki. However, if youre considering making a tight suit that covers most of her body, and which would be just as usable with Victoria (1 or 2) as it would with Voluptuous Vicki, I suspect that he might not want people who didnt purchase his product to get those morphs created from his work. In either case, I would ask him first.

And just to further illustrate what DAZ considers in such decisions, Ive included a couple of images. One shows a clothing item that works almost as well on Michael 1 as it does on Michael 2; it also fills a need that serves as one of the main incentives for many users to purchase the Michael 2 product. The other image shows a clothing item that doesnt. (I think youll know which is which.)

So, where are we now? Am I close to clearing up any confusion about this whole thing? We would love to be able to explain our stance on copyright and license agreement in one quick sentence, but in order to do that it cant be a very explicit sentence, unfortunately. It would have to go a little something like this: DAZ encourages the free distribution of add-ons and modifications to our products provided that we dont feel they will seriously hinder the sale of our products. If you arent sure whether this is the case, please contact us. OK, so that was two sentences, but it was very general, as promised. ;)

In closing, I would hope that DAZ will get positive acknowledgment for what we do and how we try to do it, and even for the freedom in distribution that we do try to sponsor. I hope that you realize the difficulty of the position that we are in as a business that has chosen to make our livelihood in this market, especially when our peers in the 3D industry thought we were suicidal to offer so much for so little and open ourselves up to license infringement in ways that we never dealt with when working for production studios. Were happy with our choice. We hope you are, too. We love our work, and we love this market. We want this market to thrive and grow, and know that as it does it will be better for us all. We recognize and appreciate the overwhelming amount of help that we regularly receive from you all. Without your understanding and support for issues like respect of copyright this really wouldnt be a viable market for our company. We hope to return the favor by continuing to work hard to provide resources that will benefit you all.

We realize that many people may have misunderstood DAZs position on this issue, and we hope this post will help to clear up the majority of the confusion that may exist out there. Unfortunately, we will be out of the office for the rest of the weekend. Well be back on Monday, when we can check on how this thread is going. Thanks for not crucifying us in the meantime. crossing fingers

Chad Smith
DAZ Productions

Beleive me, I appreciate the fact that you're responding to this issue on a weekend. I have to say I tend to close off any communication if it's too long. Yours was very hard to absorb. So pardon me if I try to "translate" what you said. 1.) You're not totally against distribution of clothes altered by Tailor. 2.) You're not worried about clothes, such as a tank top that wouldn't work well without Michael 2. 3.) You are concerned about clothes such as the bodysuit which could be more effective without Michael 2's body. I assume the operative procedure would be to consult DAZ before we think about distributing Tailored clothes? Is your stance the same whether we release something Free, or it's "Commercial?!' In my case, I released a Tailored version of the Vicky Catsuit to fit my custom character. When I heard of your apparent new position on the issue, I immediately deleted any of my Free Stuff items which contained any Tailored clothing. I still can't help wonder why it took 4 months for DAZ to tell us of a potential problem here. That gave us all this time to do things that we find out later violated your policy. I don't like taking such risks.

We actually debated whether to do this on day one, in clarifying our stance on the distribution of our .cr2 files, and we feel that we made a wise decision to allow such distribution.....but, you did not. You could not foresee applications such as the tailer. Just exactly WHERE in your license agreement...the one that your customers are bound by, when purchasing the M2 characters....just WHERE in black and white....small or large print....does it say....license agreement subject to change at anytime the vendor deems? Is there some fine print in the readmes that we can't see? I don't have tailer. But, I do enjoy modelling. You cannot legally change the license agreement, after the fact. period. so, if you don't have some hidden clause in there stating that you can...and, i mean even back to when folks bought v2, long ago....then you are just blowing air.

Pretty good summary, as far as how this all relates to clothing made with The Tailor. Thanks for making that a little easier to digest. ;)

In reference to your question about free vs commercial distribution, you're right. We don't make any distinction there.

Sorry for taking so long to address this issue specifically. We apologize for the time you spent on the above catsuit, thinking that there would be no problems with its distribution, Ron. We know that you had no bad intentions with such a project, and that most of the people using your files didn't either. Thank you for you understanding. And thanks for actually pulling down all of your products in the interim, even when you didn't know our position, just to be on the safe side.

We hope that with this lengthier, more specific explanation you (and others) will now know which items could present a problem if distributed. And again as you mentioned, when in doubt, free to ask.

Thanks.
Chad Smith
DAZ Productions

I understand your concern, Poppi. Thanks for the question. The fact is that we haven't changed our stance on this issue at all. Rather, as further developments, practices and tools have arisen in the market, we've had to explain the ramifications of these trends with reference to our same license agreement. As to what the license says, you can reference it in our FAQ section on the DAZ website, in its entirety. However, one of the clauses that applies to this is as follows: "User may not reverse engineer, de-compile, disassemble, or create derivative works from the 3-D Model(s)". Also, "3-D Model(s)" refers to any type of product. Thanks again for the question. Again, we'll be back on Monday. (My wife is going to kill me if I don't leave right this second!) Chad Smith DAZ Productions

I guess the concern for me is that hundreds of people downloaded those characters and the Tailored clothes. I can't take back those downloads. So now am I in trouble? I can put the characters back up for Free Stuff once I find some other clothes, but even then I'm still worried about the exact "measurements." For instance, does a shirt and pair of pants equal the bodysuit? Will the two pieces of clothes together cover enough of Mike 1's body so that a person could cheat?! My Millennium Girl figure is a good example. You see how complicated this gets? At least one of my characters has her own uniquely morphed body taken from my own instincts, a "percentage" of different morphs (.5 on the heavy body morph, etc.) Then the total of those morphs was converted into a full body morph of my own with the name of the character. Now strictly speaking, you don't see the DAZ character's body morphs. But they're in the recipe, buried. Is that a violation?

ron, if you spawned the DAZ morphs for a character it isn't legal to distribute it, they specifically stated on their faq that you can't Spawn the morphs to create a new character... You can only distribute that model as a "pose" file.

Ok, chad... Just to make sure I'm clear; DAZ does not acknowledge that the development and distribution of Poser 4 file formats, and morph settings existing wholly within Poser 4, are, in fact, the sole and exclusive right of Curious Labs to determine? Let me put that a different way: DAZ is making a HUGE GALACTIC MISTAKE by claiming any right, whatsoever, to restrict the development of Curious Labs PRORIETARY file formats! Was that more clear? Paul

I deletd so I could better voice what I was trying to ask without being redundant :~) First of all, if the Tailor can only approximate a morph and doesn't actually transfer the morph how can this be an infringement? There is no copyright on actual bodyshapes... So what about clothes that do incorporate approximations of these morphs? Travelers Gothic Armor has similar breast morphs - so I could get a Vicky 2.0 fit - without Vicky 2.0 because the chest plate covers the upper body's chest area and no one would notice. So there are non-bodysuit items that hide the body and don't carry the actual morphs. I guess it's the whole "approximation " that gets me - if the morphs aren't being transferred than where is the infringement?? If a court declares that approximation of morphs is indeed copyright infringement than doesn't that make all the clothing items that approximate the morphs for a better fit illegal and then what will happen to 3rd party modellers whose clothing items encourage the purchasing of DAZ models since there is such a variety provided for her she is more desirable.

Attached Link: http://205.122.23.229/ronknights/

Actually, I didn't directly spawn any morphs. I concocted my own "recipe" of morphs, and then spawned a new body morph with the name of the character. In addition, these morphs were copied to "blank" versions of the character invovled. These blank versions had no morphs. When I was done these characters had the morphs I'd made with my "special recipe," and nothing of the original characters. This was done to eliminate Crosstalk, as described in my Crosstalk Tutorial. Again, once I was done, there was only a morph such as "Marlin," or "Dodi," and nothing that was seen in DAZ's morph dials. I do believe there is an important distinction there. I've bought several characters based on Vicky and Mike recently, and most were in the form of cr2 files, and not MOR files. Were those products illegal too?

Here's a screenshot of the single morph in my Marvin character. The one morph is called "Marvin."

There is no distinction Ron, if the morphs are spawned from millenium morphs they cannot be distributed - period they contain the original morphs and that is a no-no. No matter the recipe they contain morphs that can only be gotten by owning the original. When you buy a character with cr2's they were created using a limited file or vicky or michael 1, whose distribution with spawned morphs as allowed. Then the character creator adds their own morphs - not those included with any of the millenium characters (again withthe exception of V1 & M1), or morphs that are legally allowed for distribution. I have sold characters myself, I use version 1 Vicky and the morphs I bought from Traveler and I make a few with magnets, these may then be spawned into a charcter. BUT, it the spawned morph relies upon a V2 or M2 (or steph or the mil kids or baby) then the morph cannot be included in the spawned morph but must be included as a pose MAT or MOR file. So by distributing the cr2 you have given out the use of the DAZ millenium character morphs to those that may only own Vicky 1 as the millenium characters (second versions and newer models) are bqsically their morphs. That means if you make and spawn a body morph (spawning is spawning - be it a head morph or a body morph of Vicky 2.0 so I'm unsure why you say you didn't directly spawn - kind of like being kind of pregnant) and use an injector file to distribute her then someone with Vicky 1 doesn't have to buy Vicky 2.0 to benefit from the morphs because you just gave them away. Even Spawned morphs can be taken apart.

I have spent hundreds of hours over several months making a pair of long-johns (union suit) complete with trap-door in the back for Michael2. All this was done without my knowingly violating any existing policies at the time (The Tailor was not even out yet). I'll be damned if I will now curtail plans for releasing or even submitting it to DAZ. I'll split it into a top and bottom and release the parts separately if I have to. I'm just sick and tired of the rules changing on me as I approach completion of a project. And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am a potential crook and threat to DAZ. For all their hyperbole about "encouraging 3rd party support" and "supporting the community" they are the most selfish company I have ever seen. I will honor all copyrights and intellectual properties that are in the spirit of the copyright law, but I will NOT bow to marketing pressures, threats or whims.

okay...i'm gonna try and explain this simply. the daz license for the m2 figures states that you cannot use the cr2, or ANY DERIVATIVE, THEREOF, to create characters to be distributed in any way whatsoever. I know that traveler, and, many others were modelling long before the "tailor" came out. and, some of them use "shrinkwrapping", or "contouring", "sketchonmesh", etc., to follow the curves of the figure as tightly as possible. you know...everyone likes the tight stuff on their vickis in the temple, right? okay, some, like nerd and, sergemarck put their new clothing figures through all the paces and set up their conformers the long, old, hard way. most....use existing cr2 files...and just change the reference to their new .obj in poser. also, they change the name, and perhaps some of the texture junk...this is okay...as long as you use a cr2 with no restrictions on it...i.e...the daz clothing pak one is fine as a base cr2. however...and, this is the major reason i did not spring for tailor...cause this was so very foreseeable....tailor takes the information in the m2 characters....the stuff that would make up their cr2s...and translates them into a new mesh. i am not sure about this, and, daz may actually have a point, as their m2 "readme", i.e. "contract" is so strict about redistributing the cr2's, or derivatives, thereof. you can make pose your m2 figure any way that you see fit...use your morph dials, and trace/contour/shrinkwrap/sketchonmesh to your heart's content....but...and this is the big butt...lol...you have to make your own cr2. do not presume to use the cr2 from the m2 characters, in any way. i hope i did not confuse you even more. maybe someone else can clarify what i just said. Pop...Pop....Poppi!!!

Thank you, Chad. This shouldn't be that hard for reasonable people to understand... if they can reason in the first place. I understand the need to protect my copyrights (and know exactly how much a Bay Area intellectual property lawyer charges for his time), and so I can understand DAZ's need to protect their investment of time and creative energy. Maybe it is easier for those folks who are originators, rather than derivatators, to grasp? Carolly

Attached Link: http://www.daz3d.com/pages/faq/faq.html

for further clarification try reading the FAQ at DAZ

"When pygmies cast such long shadows, it must be very late in the day." - Gian-Carlo Rota in "Indiscrete Thoughts"

I too, have been sort of secretly working on a "new" clothing pack for victoria...and, it will fit my "new" victoria character...whose body i think rocks...as far as vicki can rock. and, yes, i was planning to sell it...everything from lingerie to long formal dresses...as a pack...and, cool stuff, too....more like the victoria's secret catalogs, than either of the daz clothing packs for vick. but, hey...i designed each and every item...and, i know what i can legally get by with. i did not buy tailer. because the area it goes in to is too gray... gotta run... goin out to dinner with my clown... comin back soon 'cause i don't feel too swell tonight...a recurrence of last year's sickness....went to doc, yesterday...they put me on cipro...which does not make me feel too swell, either.

I am not stupid Carolly - far from it - I get the idea, which is why I am asking in regards to an approximate shape - not an actual copied morph(that should likewise be simple to understand). I am not asking about including the actual morphs - example it is obvious that distributing a character that includes the actual morphs in any form is copyright infringement. But from what I understand the Tailor doesn't do that. I am curious about the implication on those morphs that "approximate" a body shape without carrying the actual morph information. I am equally curious as this would imply a copyright of bodyshape - which isn't as far as I now copyrightable. So if a cr2 is created by a 3rd party, and they incoporate "approximation" morphs, those that resemble Vicky's body to gain a better fit, how is that considered infringement? If Tailor only approximates in te same way that nerd, traveler and others do where is the issue of infringement? If it actually "copies" the morph I get it. If one must distribute an original cr2 I get it, but I was under the impression that Tailor created "morphs" and the distribution of the cr2s wasn't needed - just the end resulting morph - which still needs work to fit and is not an actual replica of the DAZ morph (coke vs. pepsi lol). Or am I wrong? does the tailor copy the actual morph and do the distributed files actually contain the cr2s for the clothing article they were created for?

LSM: It's really kind of a moot question as you can't actually own a morph. Anything created entirely within the P4 software and belonging to an aspect of a P4 file format is owned by CL. Feel free to ask CL directly on this, if you don't believe me. I'm getting tired of repeating myself ( not to imply you, LSM-I think you're gret ). DAZ cannot restrict your ability to distribute these items, no matter how pissed off they get that theor products suck. Paul

I know this makes it seem like copying someone's lighting set and reselling it isn't piracy. The same with morph sets, etc. Well, guess what? It's not. It's still unethical and shitty and wrong, but it's not illegal. As for tailoring clothes and what not. That's not even unethical or shitty or wrong, and it sure ain't illegal, no matter what the DAZ people think. Paul

LOL.... can't own a morph.. now there is an aspect I didn't look at, that would make the entire Mike and Vicky 2.0 open game.... Doesn't Curious Labs make considerations for this - in regards to derivitave work?? Must re-read license! What about morphs created in other programs and moved into poser? Like morphs from zbrush (there's a ngihtmare program I can't get a handle on!) made for Poser ... ooooh the implications are gonna explode.

Heh. Well, most models like Mike and Vicky are protected because of the mesh, which is copyrighted. ;) So are textures ( as .jpg, .gif, whatever ). See, technically, if Curious Labs wanted to, THEY could restrict the buying and selling of Poser 4 files in P4 formats, but they never would, because it would be silly and it would kill a market that is beneficial to P4. Paul

Clear as mud, Chad. ;] So... if someone uses Rhino's skinning feature to create a conforming skintight outfit for Mike 2 and Vicki 2, then uses Rhino's follow curve feature and creates their own morphs, in their own geometry to make it fit to the copy of Mike 2's various body shapes - a Mike 2 and Vicki 2 that they purchased from you legitimately - and one where they actually include none of M2 and V2's morphs or geometry, then can they or can they not do with it as they choose? And if the answer is "No", why not? And if the answer is "Yes", then what makes that different from any of the other examples? Even further... suppose they DO use Tailor to recreate the morphs? Precisely how is that different from doing the morphs the other way? It's a legetimate function of the program, and since it's their suit they're approximating the morphs in....

"When pygmies cast such long shadows, ...." laugh out loud - that is precious :) Chad - thanks for posting on the weekend. I am not really very happy that DAZ made an end of day friday announcement like that - and that you are thanking folks for pulling their stuff and saying maybe Monday folks will get official answers from DAZ [did you say that??] but hey - you have to like the face you shave in the morning, not me :) Over the years, my family here have bought MANY of your products, though luckily, we didn't get the Tailor, so I myself am not affected by the tailor aspect of the announcement. One of the reasons we do business with DAZ is because, it actually IS a community oriented company. I am hoping that folks will beeline toward a middle area where all parties can be happy and supportive of each other. Personally, I adhere to all copyrights, like most all of the folks I have met in the Poser community do - however, I do see a distinction between the EULA and marketing pressure. So.. I guess I'll adopt a 'wait and see' outlook for a while instead of 'gotta buy it now!' hehe. Lastly, grats to all parties involved with the PoserPro.com acquisition/merger! It's like watching a star on the rise. I may not have posted much - but have loved the Poser community as my partner frequents often, and now I am hooked :) It has an integrity that is rare on the internet, and it is good to see it going places :) - Suede

LMAO! Integrity... Heh... that one's gonna keep me laughing for an hour... I love your sense of humour, Suede.

oh please, you'll be cussing again way before the hour is up ;-p

Last week Daz made monkeys for the poser community. And Lo [always wanted to use "'Lo" in a sentance] they were hailed unto as Gods among the community. This week Daz made monkeys out of them... The moral to this is: "Don't make a monkey out of a forum weasel. It pisses off the weasel and insults the monkey... " grin

LOL Ironbear, we needed that! Do you think the timing of DAZ's really great Freebie and their clamp-down on competition had anything in common???

ermmmmmmmm Don't Daz SELL the tailor program? Storm in a D cup? Seems so. If it wasn't for all the stuff people make for Micheal and Victoria....who'd want them? ps....I kinda like that gorilla thank you Daz :-) just wondering who slipped on the banana skin?

This whole issue leaves a serious bad taste in my mouth... I think its nice that an attempt has been made to clarify the issue. And clearly, making morphs that circumvent the need to buy version 2 of the models is a no no. As far as I know, Stephanie is a version 1 model (though there is a LE distributable cr2, so perhaps not). I won't be looking forward to a version 2. As a matter of fact, making new body morphs that are not based on DAZ morphs AT ALL would really be a good idea, especially if they were free. All you would need are four basic designs: thin body, fat body, muscle body and curvy body. Then those shapes could be applied to clothes (or even create MOR files for such). I'm somewhat sorry that I purchased the tailor if this is the verdict. I'm am glad that it's not a millenium-specific application so I can use it for other characters. LSM, think I'm gonna dig up my Poser 4 license too. Entropic, I love that you cut through all the BS with a chainsaw! :) Ironbear, ROFL! and double ROFL!

Yes, Daz sells the Tailor. Daz also sells morphs to make the Michael 1 clothing pack fit almost all of Michael 2's morphs. They sell this for $18.00 les than they sell The Tailor. So, someone who doesn;t have Mike 2 but has the Michael clothing pack can make Mike one look pretty darn close to Mike 2. Therefore, Daz has done and gone and violated their own policy and should, at the earliest convenience hire a lawyer and sue themselves silly. Drag it out forever, reach an out-of-court settlement, pay themselves off and come back scarred, but ready to carry on. Until they realise that their customer base has dwindled down to their inlaws and a few close friends. Anyone remember the Pets.com sock puppet? Exactly....

Suede, DAZ did NOT wait until late Friday to post their message. They made it Tuesday afternoon. Anybody wandering over to PoserPros during the next 3 days could have read it. It is sticky so it stays on top... not even buried. If people wait until Friday night to howl their heads off, I don't think it is the least bit fair to blame the company who posted Tuesday. You can read that very message if you want to. It answers a question and explains their reasoning. It is all extremely consistant with the decisions they have made before... and with their stated intentions. Carolly

Ladysilvermage, you are so wrong. Here is a quote from the DAZ FAQ which actually depicts exactly what I had done with my custom characters: "Characters and Scenes - Cr2 and Pz3 files: The Victoria 2 .0 and Michael 2.0 and Victoria 2 P4 Cr2 and Michael 2 P4 Cr2 files (both included in the Victoria 2.0 and Michael 2.0 products respectively) cannot be distributed in whole or in part. Pz3 files created using these models will also contain the information from the Victoria 2.0/Michael 2.0 or Victoria 2 P4 Cr2/Michael 2 P4 Cr2 files, and so cannot be redistributed either. It is legal, however, to redistribute the original Victoria 1.0/Michael 1.0 Cr2 file and the Vicki2P4 LE Cr2/Michael2P4 LE Cr2 file, which we have provided for use by those interested in distributing Victoria/Michael-derivative products for use by those already owning either Victoria 1.0/Michael 1.0 and/or Victoria 2.0/Michael 2.0. These legally distributable files are available for free download on the Victoria 2.0 and Michael 2.0 product pages." I rest my case!

I think Ron knights said it best. DAZ states that the Catsuit would circumvent the need to buy Mike2 and shows an example. Then they show an example of Mike 1 in a pair of big pants. Next look at Ron;s post, and notice what he is really saying here. What if you not only gave away a pair of pants but also a shirt. Now look back at that big guy there imagine having a shirt for him, this would hide the lack of a belly and actually make this almost as bad as the full catsuit. Because of this I still don't see the distinction. Look at runstuff's post above. He has a pair of thermals, nothing wrong there. If he akes it one piece it breaks your current stance but if he splits it into two it doesn't. The end results are the same. With this in mind I would still have to say you have egg on your face in this matter because you are now saying there is a rule but you will be discrimitory in enforcing it. That will only land you in legal trouble rather than the other way around.

Carolly, DAZ waited FOUR MONTHS to publicly state a policy concerning The Tailor. DAZ made no attempt to announce the policy here at Renderosity. I discovered the policy in a posting in the Bodysuit Hell thread, and investigated. It just so happens that I don't visit PoserPros very often. And I don't need to apologize for that. Don't poop on me or us for bringing up the issue on a Friday night. Talk to DAZ about waiting 4 months, and announcing their policy after so many of us, out of ignorance, violated the policy. Get it straight. Ron

Here's another quote from DAZ about distributing cr2 files. I'll translate it: 1.) It's ok to distribute Mike 1 or Vicky 1 cr2's, but not Mike 2 or Vicky 2. Or I think that's what they said: "What is Daz3d's Stance on the Distribution of CR2 Files? With regard to the re-distribution of CR2 files, it has generally been our practice to allow people to freely distribute the CR2 files for our products since the person would need to own the original geometry file in order for the distributed file to be of any use. There have been a few instances where our product is the CR2 file. In these cases, we couldn't allow for the distribution of the CR2 file as that would circumvent the need to purchase the product directly from us. Simply put, products like Victoria 2.0 and Michael 2.0 are CR2 files, and therefore they cannot be re-distributed."

Any shirts made to fit Vicki 2 with approximations of the Vicki 2 breast morphs will be violating Daz's interpretation of their license. (It doesn't matter what character model you use to make the watermelons stick out.)

Any pants that approximate the Vicki 2 pearshape morphs will be violating the Daz agreement. Any pants using morphs such as heavy, muscular, or barbarian wil violate the Daz agreement because the changes will cover the base mesh, circumventing the need for the upgraded mesh. Even morphs such as faerie or anime are distributable because you can spin the dial to a negative number and have the clothing enlarge around the base model.

I can grab pieces of clothing from different sources and use their Vicki 2 morphs and stick them on Vicki Lo Res (or even Posette) and, with a bit of creative posing and a touch of postwork, make those individual pieces look like one overall Vicki 2 body morph.

It's one thing to say that you can not distribute morphs that you didn't make yourself, or pieces of a mesh that you didn't make yourself. It's quite another to say that you can't distribute morphs or meshes that you made yourself, which is how Daz can interpret all items and morphs that fit their characters.

Ron, Don't bother "translating" what DAZ says in a FAQ or other legal document. The latin epigram about translating equals betraying rings quite true. I am not so lazy that I need someone to spoonfeed me regurgitated documents from another forum... I'll go and read them for myself. You have missed an essential message left by a member of this community in this very forum. Maybe you don't remember what happened 2 months ago, so that message didn't mean anything to you. You see, I do have it straight, because I can put one fact upon another and build a wall. Carolly

I FIGURED IT OUT!!! You want to know what the best way is to make money in this "Community" (using the term loosely here)... open up a Pitch Fork and Torch tent on the corner and start selling!! Jack

You just NOW figured that out, Jack? ;]

If you allow that Pitchfork and Torch tent to come within 50 yards of myDead Horses and Flogs tent, I'll sue you, bucko!!! I mean the nerve of some people, to come out with an idea similar to mine and try to sell it in my own neighborhood! What's next, IB setting up a booth selling navel lenses so everyone who has their heads up their backsides can still see where they are going?

heh... call me slow and out of touch. ;o)

LOL@Pariah Damn!! That means I have got to go and see Mayor Tim and ask him if I can purchase a permit so that I don't violate your space... and I REALLY hope that that space won't be down wind of your Dead horse tent... whew that smell and all of that buzzing!! Jack

Naw. I'm sticking with the beer and popcorn concessions. No matter what the controversy, people always need refreshments and condiments after working up a thirst with their lynchings and tarrings... It's a steady market, and I don't have to worry about the tailor infringing on my popcorn. ;]

Carolly, "Don't bother "translating" what DAZ says in a FAQ or other legal document. The latin epigram about translating equals betraying rings quite true. I am not so lazy that I need someone to spoonfeed me regurgitated documents from another forum... I'll go and read them for myself." I certainly thought you would have read the documents before you flung your usual ration at me. Gosh you didn't?! Hey, guys, I'd like to roast marshmallows when you light the torches? Could I get a permit to sell the marshmallows?

Hmmm.... tar.... damn I never thought about tar... I wonder if someone else holds the rights to sell tar... -Jack

Oh, Carolly, what important message from two months ago are you referring to? I might have missed something. But then I can't remember what I ate yesterday!

I think EvilTed may have Marshmallows. I know he has the Smores concessions...

There are a couple of misconceptions here that I want to try to clear up before they get out of hand. 1. "you can't actually own a morph. Anything created entirely within the P4 software and belonging to an aspect of a P4 file format is owned by CL. " No, that's not true at all. A morph is a collection of vertices. Essentially it's a mesh with the edges, facets and UV information removed. Like a mesh, it belongs to it's creator. They exist quite independantly of Poser and although you can make them in Poser using a magnet or a wave deformer, you can also make them in a host of other software applications, such as Rhino, 3DS Max, Amorphium, Cinema4D etc. Most serious creators of morphs for Poser make the morphs in another program - often Rhino. Whether a creator can copyright a file that really doesn't have meaning outside Poser, such as a pose or light file, is debatable but I don't want to get into that here. 2. Poppi's post (no 15) suggests that all of this has something to do with distribution of cr2 files. It doesn't. At least not directly. The drive of Daz's statement has nothing to do with file formats, though the example they gave is primarily about morphs. Essentially what DAZ are saying is that you can't use one of their products in the process of making something that may damage sales of that product or any of their other products, unless you have their permission. In the particular example Chad has given, you can't use Mike 2 morphs in the process of making something that damages the sales of Mike 2 or the Mike 2 morphing clothing pack. Not unless you have their permission, anyway (clearly they have their own permission, which is why they can do it if they want) I'm not making any comments on whether that position is right, fair or legally enforcable. I'm simply trying to clear a little of the muddy water that has been thrown up in this thread. 3. Ron's spawned character morphs. Ron, if you used any of the Mike 2 morphs as an "ingredient" in your "recipe" of morphs prior to spawning your full body morph, then LadySilverMage is correct and you are very much in violation of DAZ's EULA. They're quite clear about that and always have been, as the two quotes you've provided show. When they forbid distribution of the Mike 2 and Vicki 2 cr2 files, it's because those files contain morphs which can be used by people who don't own Mike 2 or Vicki 2. Moving the morphs from the Mike 2 cr2 to the Mike 1 cr2 doesn't suddenly make those morphs distributable. It doesn't make spawned derivatives of them distributable either. If you want to distribute a character based on Mike 2 morphs, you'll need to learn to make MOR poses. That's the only way to do it legally.

I get so sick and tired of all this shit that gets slung around. It's getting to the point where you cant go a week without someone lynching somebody over something. All this "attitude" is making me ill. All I ever wanted to do was get some recognition for my work and make a buck or two. Why does everyone have to make that so difficult?