Paul, Yes, some things do need to be said, I would never debate you on that. :o) Just wanted to try and make it a little more possible for those things to not only be said but heard. I don't know the entire history of everything that transpired to create the hard feelings that are plain to see from both sides. I am no stranger to having such myself with other people in the Community. There are many in this Community who hate/blame me for things that happened. Some I am responsible for and did, some I didn't. The one thing I DID learn from this Community is: "What goes around, comes around...and with a vengeance!!" Personally, I just want to see what happens in the next few days, I am sure that things will be illuminated and be very clear in that time. I think till that happens the best all can do, is wait patiently to see before freaking out. You said: "So what does this thread accomplish beyond the so many others? Nothing." You're wrong Paul, it did accomplish something. People have read it and though they may not act immediately upon that information, they carry it within them and eventually will make decisions based upon it. In this thread they have now been able to hear both sides of the coin, told in a calm and rational manner without flames and will be able to make an informed decision... no matter what side they choose... we can at least know they've heard both... right or wrong. Like I said, I don't have much invested in this Community anymore. I am not going to pick sides. I will support anyone that has ties in this Community. I don't have to have an affiliation with them to support them, nor do I have to like one side over another, so long as the Community or my own needs are taken care of. If they aren't, well then, I wont be giving them my support any longer. And all I was trying to say was: "that it does no one any good if you pee in your own sandbox, because you and your friends will end up having to play in that crap." Jack

Jack, I just wanted to take a moment to say that I'm glad we've had a chance to work out our pov's through the forum and IM. Thanks for taking the time, and I appreciate what we're both trying to accomplish in our own ways. I'm gonna head back to my modelling now... I have to get my Whopper Girl model into free-stuff before DAZ changes their EULA again. ;) Paul

No Problem Paul, glad to be there to listen. :o) Jack

Hehe, Jack, from time to time, it's impossible to be retained, isn't it ? You will never change (please don't). Serge

Ummm whats this about Renderosity being caught up in the flames, becoming a burnt up and charred husk?? Has everyone gone and lost there marbles or what. I suppose a large portion of profits comes from sell of poser useable items,I really don't know, but have you forgot that the marketplace is not solely devoted to just poser items. Sheesh, come on get a grip.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=764863

"I see you attacking people, calling them names, yelling and cussing... why?" Did you actually read the other thread? I don't see my first posts as any of that. I posted the same thing over at PoserPros, too. And how did they react? Russ just blew me off with his little corporate form letter response: "We understand your concerns and feelings on the matter. Thanks for sharing them with us." And then I started getting flamed. In the forum, in IM's, in e-mail... and that's when I went from sad to PISSED! And then you come in here, flame me some more, and pretend you're acting in the best interests of the community? BULLSHIT! You're just another part of the fucking PoserPros lynch mob out to hang any and all detractors. You may not have intended to be, you may not think you are even now, but things look a bit different from the other side, pal. I've seen how far you get with tears and a sad story. Here's the deal: 1. I don't have anything against Russ and Mehndi even now, I'm just really disappointed. I DO have the right to my opinion, don't I? Or did Daz already do away with that? Hell, next fight, we may be on the same side, who knows. But the more you folks flame me, and the more they cheer you on, as Russ did above, the less I think of them. I don't like being blown off (at least not that way;), and I WON'T just sit there and let people poke me in the eyeballs. So you're basically saying "You hit me back first", and that just won't fly. It never would have gone this far without folks like you and VS feeding the fire. Frankly, I'm really tired of the whole god-damned subject. 2. I never said this deal was a bad thing, other than for the fact that PoserPros will not be the same, and that it goes against everything R & M have said in the last few months. Daz is not a site that has also evolved into a store. They are not a part of the community. They ARE a store, period. That's all they do. A Poser Wal-Mart. And being strictly a business, they did not do this for the community, they did it because they saw dollars to be made. That's the only reason any store does anything. There are things that they are NOT going to allow, things that are bad for business. If it hurts the bottom line, it'll be gone. Maybe not right away, but it WILL happen. In the end, people's right to express themselves there will be restricted far more than it EVER has been here. Just wait and see. But, at least until that happens, I'm not saying that people shouldn't go there. I'm not saying *I* won't go there (although with the way I've been treated by the regulars in the past couple of days, I'm not too sure I'll ever feel comfortable, or even welcome, over there again). And I HAVEN'T said that ANYWHERE. Haven't seen anyone else say it, either, so I don't know where the hell you got THAT one from. There's some great stuff over there, and SOME great people. I particularly like the hair modeling forum. That's pretty unique. And another store could be really cool. I've been supporting R & M on that one from the beginning. I just hoped it would be THEIR store and not some damned Daz satellite. 3. I hate to break it to everyone, but Daz is not heaven on earth, it's not some pinnacle to be reached, it's just a friggin store. They don't impress me, and I don't see someone selling off their site, the site they once literally called their "dream", as being any kind of success, or anything deserving congratulations. Condolences is more like it. Simple truth is, they gave up and sold out. Maybe they had reasons other than just dollar signs, I don't know. But it's definitely not party time as far as I'm concerned. ...and that's all their is to it, other than you coming in here and attacking me and Paul, especially since none of this had ANYTHING to do with you. And you WERE attacking us, since no one else fits the bill. Who ELSE could you possibly be referring to? "Then there are what I call the "Warmongers" the individuals who wiggle their way into the Community like snakes and wait for an opportunity to strike and spread their poison." Admit that that was over the top and completely uncalled for and I MIGHT take you seriously. Until then... "I see you attacking people, calling them names, yelling and cussing... why?" Right back at you, bud. You owe me an apology.

x2000, if you'll look at the thread again, that comment you attribute to me, wasn't even directed at you. Have a great day! Russell

Well, if that's the case, then you ignored me completely. Oh, THAT makes me feel SO much better...

Chuck Evans - "People who have great art AND sell stuff AND offer freebies seem to have more sayso than the rest of us "nobodies". And so on. When people like SAMS3D, BH, IH, and so many others that I don't mean to impune by omitting speak, it means more." Right idea, wrong site.

I'm sorry if you felt ignored x2000. Surely you don't expect me to address every single poster on the site. If I remember correctly, your post wasn't directed to me specifically. If I'm mistaken, I sincerely apologize for overlooking it.

Jack, you could have just posted a message stating that you thought this controversy was bad for the community. Instead, you posted some overly-dramatic piece in which you played the "Potential Hero or Savior" of us all. What's even worse is the comments you wrote in PoserPros which basically said you don't give a fuck about the Poser community, you're not involved, etc. That's funny since you're running Animotions. (Where I might add, you've decided to ban nudes everywhere except where they make money. And yes, children are smart enough to make a couple mouse clicks and find the nudes in the store.) Ron

Well, since I was the only one to really speak out about this in that thread, I'd have thought that post would have caught your attention a bit. And no, it wasn't really directed at anyone, it was just me expressing my disappointment that things turned out this way. Frankly, you were the underdogs and and I was rooting for you, and see you swallowed up by the mighty Daz was sad, whatever the reasons. You didn't owe me any kind of response, but it would have been nice to know that my opinion meant SOMETHING, even if it was a already done deal and all. You did respond in the thread here, later, but if you'd said those things over there, then, before this thing started spiralling out of control, it would have meant more. Anyway, apology accepted.:) I was never trying to cause trouble, I was only saying that I don't see this as the great victory that so many others seem to. Nonetheless, I DO wish you luck. You've paid your dues and I think it's time you had some real success. I'm just sorry it has to be through Daz and not solely your own work, especially since you've worked so hard. Unfortunately, their ARE some of those warmongers that Jack mentioned lurking around, but right now they're all over at PoserPros composing more hate mail with my name on it, And as you should know after all this time, I make damned poor prey. I'm not quite PJF, but I sure ain't no Ghandi, either.;) If you could encourage them to lay off and let it rest, I think we'd ALL be a whole lot happier. What you've seen in the forums is only the tip of the iceberg. It seems some folks just don't have the guts to say things in public. They'd rather flame someone privately and then act all innocent in public. But I don't do that shit, and it PISSES ME OFF ROYALLY. If it doesn't stop, I may just start posting some of this stuff and let people see just who the real troublemakers actually are... But that's not you. I am sad about this, but I apologize for letting things get so far out of control. It seems certain folks have been trying real hard to push my buttons, and I guess I let them. You'd think I'd be used to it by now. I guess I haven't quite attained Legumevana yet.;) So Russ apologizes, I apologize... Jack?

Appropos of nothing at all, but this seems like a good place to stick it. Hrmmmm... examines previous sentance Ahem. Whatever. Ahem Before I begin... I want to beg the gods to forgive me for what I'm about to do with absolute malice aforethought... ;] The Twelve Steps to Forum Dominance: Step 1: We admitted that we were omnipotent, and that while that meant we had no need for the forum dwellers around us, it would be amusing to force them along the path of true enlightenment. Step 2: Came to believe that there WAS no power greater than ourselves, and that sanity was a delusion fostered by those who wished to denigrate us for their own mean purposes... Step 3: Made a concious effort to convince others to turn their lives and wils over to us, for only we knew the true path to both quality and poser godhood. Step 4: When confronted, we proceeded to take an exacting searching, fearless, and painstaking inventory of the shortcomings of our opponents, and whereever they were wrong, gleefully pointed it out to them. Meanwhile obfuscatng our own failnings with with as large a cloud of BS as we could sling in the shortest amount of time. Step 5: Having completed this inventory of our adversaries, we proceeded to share it with all and sundr in public forum, illustrating it where neccessary [for their own good of course] with excerpts from private emails and Icq conversation logs. Step 6: Were entirely ready to help them remove these defects of character if only they would admit that we were gods and knew the true path... Step 7: Arrogantly demanded WHY they were completely unwilling to listen to our perfectly reasonable demands that they shape up and conform to our worldview. After all, we give SO MUCH, and w're really asking so little.... Step 8: Made a list of all those whom we felt had harmed us, threw a tantrum while deleting all of our previous threads, and stormed out proclaiming loudly to never darken the forums again. Step 9: Stormed back to make direct rebuttals to those people where ever possible before storming out again. Wash, rinse, repeat as neccessary. Step 10: Continued to take inventory of our fellow man, and whereever they were wrong, promptly admitted it. Step 11: We sought through prayer and medication [LOTS of medication] to somehow understand how those around us could fail to see TRUTH in Capitol Letters when we had so steadfastedly beaten them about the head and shoulders with our version of it. Step 12: Having had little or no awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to continue these practices in other online forums after having been banned from our usual haunts under every possible nickname we could think of. Step 13: Having come to the conclusions that due through our adherence to these principles like unto a rabid wolverine latching onto week dead carrion we had become the gods gifts to forumites, we proceeded to selflessly cyberstalk every even remotely attractive online member of the opposite sex until we finally latched onto one as warped as we were. And then we proceeded to breed new forumites. ;] Cribbed with inspiration from, but little or no actual resemblance to the 12-Steps of AA...

Wow. I know some people JUST like that. Amazing Ironbear. You're innocent insightfullness is astounding. Such close resemblance to people I can think of, it's incredible, and to think that your post in no way is intended to resemble anyone. So frickin' true... chokes, coughs, suffocates on hysterical laughter trapped in throat under coffee.....

Whopper Girl will be hosted at dragool.com, Legume... It's gonna take me a few weeks to put together, since I'm not terribly great at modelling organics in 3ds max, and I have a LOT on my plate... I also have to make sure calling her "Whopper girl" won't infringe on Burger King trademarks. :) Paul

X2K, Don't sweat it bud, there is nothing to apologize to me for. I can understand being upset and I certainly know what it is like to have someone hovering around you trying to push your buttons. Welcome to a Community where one minute everyone is okie dokie one minute and everyone is agreeing with you, then the next minute there is a Battle Royal and you are wrong everytime you try and open your mouth.... ah, such excitement!! Anyway, I just want to try and help calm everyone down so that they could actually talk to each other and be heard. It took a bit, but it seems it actually worked. I was never angry at you, so nothing to forgive. Jack ::pokes X2K in the ribs and grins at him:: Oh, by the way, I am not a part of PoserPros or any lynch mob. :o)

Speaking about someone hovering around... Ron, My post regarding my involvement and feelings regarding the Community was post here on Renderosity... particularly, in this thread. I can understand where the confusion would come in since everyone has been bouncing back and forth between to the sites all weekend trying to catch up on things... or find more mud to sling around or ways to hurt each other. In regard to your other concerns, in regard to AniMotions. Despite what you want to think, AniMotions' focus is on Comics, Video Games and Anime... not on the Poser Program, or on the Community that use Poser, its focus is on a Community of people that get into Comics, Anime or Video Games, whether they use Poser or not... in other words, a completely different Community that may, however, include some members of the Poser Community. Also, Renderosity or some other website is not the place to be discussing the functions or operating practices of AniMotions (or any other website for that matter). The proper place to do that is on that particular site. If you have a concern about the way a particular website is ran, take your issues up there, where they can be properly addressed. Jack

Paul... I am not sure that you'd be able to call her "Whopper Girl"... grins ...I think your character's name and the really large Dina character would generate allot of confusion.... chuckles Whooper Girl... heh heh heh... Jack

Jack, there are high school gymnasiums all over our county full of people who don't know if they have a home to go to because of those fires. It started to rain today here in Flagstaff --a bare sprinkle-- for the first time THIS YEAR. I don't agree or disagree with your point (whatever it is), but remember there are some of us who don't find comparing half a thousand homes lost to something far less consequential (at least, to people like me) tasteful or funny. Go make fun of Flint's misfortunes and see how far it gets you.

Good to hear that, hopefully it will help to contain that fire. I used the terms and related it to the current wildfires, because it is very close to that. It is a situation that people can relate to and understand, I did not mean to make "light" of the situation (both the wildfires that are ravaging the US right now, or the one that is taking place here in our forums). It is also a situation that I myself can relate to having lost a home in Grand Forks, North Dakota a few years back to BOTH a fire that swept through that town and ALSO a flood at the same time. I don't know what or who Flint is, sorry, I am not update that much on current events. All I did was liken the situation to something I and allot of other people could understand. There was nothing wrong with that and no harm intended in doing that. Jack

Hey there, folks. I just want to say that IM's have been flying back and forth and I think peace reigns once again. Both sides have overreacted, although not without some outside help... Speaking of which, the hate mail stopped the minute I threatened to post it, which is good because I wasn't bluffing. Mostly, I just want to thank Renderosity for not locking this thread, even though it may have deserved it long ago. Sometimes the best way to solve a problem is to just let people thrash it out. If it had been locked, there are a lot of things that might not have gotten said, things that NEEDED to be said. Of course, some might argue that such things are better done in private, but I believe that the things said on both sides have all been thought by others who have remained silent on the sidelines, and perhaps we've resolved some things in their minds, too. I certainly hope so. Call it therapy by proxy;) Peace.

Well said X2K... well said indeed!!

smiles X2000, you have been, and I hope always shall be our friend. I am so happy we are all better now. We are all passionate people, we artists, and the first to stand up to defend what we love. Each of us says things we later wish we had not said, or wish we had phrased better. Each of us is succeptible to letting others push our buttons and use us to their ends. We are all very human. What makes some of us manage to survive is that when the smoke clears, and the passions settle, we can begin to actually talk again, softly and quietly, and see that there is still love and friendship in this community family, even if at times we break out into a brawl worthy of ThanksGiving Dinner! :)

Jack, well said. Sorry about your home. For the record, Flint's a city in Michigan where during one of the corporation's more profitable years General Motors closed the Buick plant that employed more than half the working population for the previous six decades. Michael Moore's documentary "Roger and Me" covers the situation. (I thought your profile said you were from Mich.)

Hey Duane, I am now, but orginally from Grand Forks, ND. The only thing I know about Flint is that it was once wiped out by a tornado... is that what you are refering too, or is it about the motor companies? From Michigan but don't pay much attention to the "Big 3" unless it is Marvel, DC Comics or Image Comics.. :o) Jack

I'm glad this has been resolved. It's hard making any kind of change, and it's only courtesy to give R&M the benefit of support. God luck.

Umm, I've looked around here and over at PoserPros and can't see the explaination given that would say 'the fire is out' Can someone point me to the post by DAZ that warrents this? I really want to see it to put myself at ease if nothing else.

Are you referring to the Tailor situation? That's no fire. Unless you can get a few hundred folks to boycott Daz, they've got everyone by the balls and that's that. And there's no way you'll manage that. People bitch and bitch, but they still buy and buy just the same. Best you can hope for is a workaround, like .pcf or something. I highly doubt Daz is going to cave in, so don't hold your breath.

x2000, That's not my question. I;d be willing to hit court with them if need be if they try to stop my products, with a countersuit. My question is the fact that people here seem to be saying the issue has now been addressed to most peoples satisfaction and I want to see that statement. Even if it is a PCF thing I can go for that. It doesn't stop me from modelling what I want and protects not only daz but anyone else developing morphs or other items. That is a global protection and not a DAZ only protection.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=768437

Katt... I thnk the "fire" was the Daz aquiring Poser Pros, not the Tailor debacle. Though people are working on a pcf workaround. See the thread above (right now it's still on the first page here in this forum). Sassy

Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2488

There HAS been a solution :) And it is one that if it works as DAZ and the developers think it will work, will solve all the problems :) And Russell is even now working on coding a free utility to handle doing this for you automatically, able to be used commercially and non-commercially, unlike MAZ mover :) To read about it go here: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2488 Skondris speaking into the thread is the person at DAZ helping to handle this matter btw :)

SassyWhench, Naa I think the real fire came from 'the tailor debacle' as you call it. It doesn't matter if a web site is bought out by someone else as it doesn't really effect the community as a whole. Mehndi, Thanks for the link. I do think this is acceptable. Keep in mind that they really can't enforce this legally, but out of respect I can follow that idea. This is a much better method then simply trying to criminalize others original items. I know DAZ is a company just looking after it's interest and can sometimes go to far. I even mentioned this as the DAZ faux pas. Keep in mind what that means and you truely know my stance on the matter. Perhaps with such a relativly small company that relies on the community they should take this into account. We know they are easily contacted and they are very active in the community. Perhpas next time they will come to the user base for suggestions first. It could head off a lot of headachs for both sides and I believe actually build a stronger customer base. I know before I mentioned that if they stuck to thier prior stance I would boycott DAZ and it's affiliates which would also mean PoserPros but with this new development I am satisfied. Best of luck with your new relationship with them, I hope it turns out to be an enjoyable experiance, not just profitable.

Legally speaking, to the best of my research and knowledge, any addendum to the regulations governing acceptable use of the products provided by DAZ must a) be included in the license and b) be accepted. This has no bearing on existing license contracts with DAZ. You can't alter a license after it has been accepted- it's illegal, and would nullify the license. This only affects products offered with the updated license.

Excuse me, Jack. Don't lecture me about talking about other sites or companies here at Renderosity. It's been done before, by others, and most likely by you too.

No problem Ron, regardless, if it has been done before by other sites than that is between them and the owners of Renderosity. We have no desire to disrupt the function of any other website by discussing our operation practices on any site but our own. If people want those kind of answers they know where to come... Thank you for your time. Jack

About all that "changing" of things. I just "reinstalled" my very oldest Zygote product and re-read it's license agreement. All the way back then even, in the license, it says you cannot reverse engineer the product, and use that reverse engineering for redistribution. The Tailor actually reverse engineers the morph shape to create it's approximation. So I am not sure anything actually changed, so much as with the new easy reverse engineering technology of The Tailor available, DAZ has had to remind folks of the rule on reverse engineering and redistribution. However, with Russell's new utility, it should be possible to prove ownership of the correct product that the approximated morphs were reverse engineered off of, and thus enable all to go back to business as usual :)

By the way, here is my response to the suggestion that Mover will solve the Michael Morph/Tailor problem: "I'm sorry, but I don't believe what you're suggesting. Let me explain. 1.) Mover is designed to ensure that someone can't use a derivitive character without owning the original character. 2.) Mover is not about morphs. It is about the obj file that goes with a cr2 file. 3.) Tailor is about morphs. Tailor won't work without the original clothing item... therefore Mover is not needed. If Tailor produced clothes that worked without the original obj file, then Tailor would be appropriate. 4.) DAZ's objection to distribution of Tailored clothes is that people would be able to take the morphs from the clothes, and apply them to Mike 1. Mike 1 would either look like Mike 2 in the body suit, or maybe someone could transfer the morphs directly to Mike 1. It was a nice try, but Mover just won't solve this problem."

Micheleh, I understand that legally this holds water like a sieve. At the same time I understand mutual respect. It's one of those things that I can decide if I want to follow or not. In the area of respect, DAZ is now offering a way for us to create new items to our hearts content and yet requesting us to assist them in protecting thier own items. Take this one step further and it can be used to protect my own items. With that in mind I can concede on this count and follow that wish (notice I'm not calling it a demand). I just wish that this could have been discussed before they wanted to put it into action, could have saved everyone a lot of trouble. I don't regret talking out against DAZ during this. If we had all just stayed silent they would never have known and would never have worked on a possible solution. Always question authority, always question faith. The answers can only bring respect to the leader and more faith in the heart.

I know. I'm just pointing this out for those who think legality is an issue here. It only is if someone breaches a contract in which the new provoion already exists. I don't think reverse engineering applies to mesh modification. I'll have to look into that. I think it was concieved of from a code standpoint.

Ron, Mover is about encoding a TEXT file and linking it to another TEXT file (in its current state the original obj file) that makes that file the "key" to unlock the code. It can be done with any type of file (all Poser files are just huge text files). Mover or another similar utility could be used to protect morph makers from having their morphs used by end users who haven't purchased the original carrier of those morphs. ie, Vicki or Michael 2

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12395&Form.ShowMessage=768827

I started a new thread on this in copyrights so Jeny can look at it.

Okay....Where is the promised "clarification" from Daz? That was supposed to be on Monday??? I had to go to trinidad for a couple of days...yes, I was WORKING...and, i am tired, and jet lagged, and, cannot find a response, here, on OUR site. Could someone please give me a link to it? I may just be ditzier than usual, and missing the thread. 'cause i wanna know, i really, wanna know...if daz is a thinkin' they can force me to sell my little wardrobe pack at their site. 'cause if they do....well, that's what they think. no tailor was used in it...just hard work. however, i did use morph manager to copy the morphs from my "goddess" character...to a v1...for quicker loading and testing. someone give me the link, please...to this daz statement...i am finding ever so much kupa. Pop...Pop....Poppi!!!

Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2406&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=100

Yer way behind Poppi ;) It is here, just hunt around a bit, it is one of those humongous threads you cannot miss. Not sure where though and I do not have time to find it. If you want a faster link to it where I do know where it is, go to: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2406&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=100