I've been a member of this community for several years and enjoyed the assistance of members immensely. And I try and give back to the community by answering questions as well, no matter how silly or easy it may seem. In the last few months, I've notice an influx of warez kiddies, some outright bold ones too. There's no toleration for that here. At the same time, I've seen some young users who are learning get caught in rude responses from the trigger happy. So here's a suggestion.... If you're asking a very basic question and you're new here (meaning that the oldies don't recognize your nicname), please do yourself a favor. 1. Identify the version you have, be it the demo, B4, whatever. 2. Tell us that you have the manual and you are stumped with page number xxx. 3. Ask your question. That way we know you are either an owner or you are going to be asking for about 30 days until your demo expires. I'm all for helping folks with questions and I'm all for drop kicking the warez kiddies. The tough thing is being able to make the right call so the above procedure will help a lot. Anyone else have a suggestion as to how to balance this out so we don't inadvertently trash the wrong person, or assist the wrong person?

PS, I got a "read the manual" response recently from someone and I found it offensive because I own B3, B4 and B5 as well as Poser Pro. ...And, the answer was not in the manual, which was why I asked.

Did I do that Eric? If so I did not mean to, I also have been a member here since 99'. I don't mean to be rude but some of these questions lately have been...well just plain easy and if you own Bryce really would be silly to ask. On the other hand I still can't figure out how to tile terrains LOL

No, vile, you didn't do it. It was coming on for some time. Mostly from the Poser forum. I learned a lesson 5 years ago when I trashed someone on the F-22 online flight sim for using my callsign and acting like an ash. He was annoying and he shot me down a few times too. After typing in the choice phrases about his immaturity his dad typed back (and obvioulsy a different and more articulate text) that his son was only playing, was 8 years old, and that I made him cry. So if I bend over backwards for newbies that might just be young, like my boss's 11 year old daughter, or a co worker's 13 year old son, consider it a way of flogging myself in the desert for 40 years.

:) good glad it was not me I would like to think I do to. But I also try to encourage looking through the forum first because typically it has already been answered. And then there are some of these like "I have Bryce What does Bryce do?" you got to be kidding me or even a "What should I render" just puts me on the floor. Although I would love to see some Chemists forum. "So I have some sulfuric acid now what" LOL Posers drive me nuts (no offense) but this whole "Look a boob" thing has driven me far away from the gallery unfortunatly. I mean there is art and I find beauty in the Human form (your NightTree is a great example of that), I also understand creation of new textures but then there is some hacks posting naked posettes. LOL

Fair enough, I feel the same way. Did you see Legume's Gorilla with a sword, boobs, and a temple? That said it all.

Iv'e got the book, but being very visually oriented, it doesn't help me that much. I have to read up on the Inficon Transpector and Jade by Princton Gammatech at work. Call me selfish but I hate to have to come home to my hobby and crack open "another" manual. I have seen some silly questions but I either put my two cents in or just move on to the next thread. I don't like the warez kid's either asking, how can I get free bryce?" I did however download the 30 day trial before I purchased. The disappearing menus drove me crazy for the first day or so then it clicked for me. If I had even known about renderosity then I would have probably asked some stupid questions. If I had been blown off corel would be a couple hundred bucks shorter now and I would be in another forum. If the dumb requests are clogging up the cyberwaves maybe its time to create a bryce newbee or image or technical forum and split the posts. I'd like to think there was some place I could ask a stupid question on renderosity without being pounded. When I posted in my first Rhino challenge I got hammered for not obeying the rules of the post. I told the moderator three times that the rules were hard to find and he steered me back to url's where the information wasn't. In the meantime other people were posting late and a 2D coloring contest had broken out in the forum. I have not been back. And sorry "Bob McNeel" but when 3.0 comes out I will be sliding into lightwave. There are people who get on forums and make dumb remarks like, "Tell me how I can render your mama", that need to be shut down and soundly trounced. It should be the job of the forum administrator to show them the door. There also really are eight year olds out there and prople who are genuinely and honestly dumb. Believe it or not, its not a sin! Tommy makes his way from the group home to the bus every day. He earns enough bagging my groceries to keep himself off the public dole and he always smiles and talks to me. If he asked me, "How'd ya make them purty pictures?", I'd give him my best answer even if he probably would never get it. Agentsmith and Clay are the names I see at the top of the forum. They can terminate abusive threads and block users from accessing the site. It's not your job to weed the pure out from the purile and smite them with your whitty banter. If a post seems juvenile just don't reply. They're pretty loose about questions in the poser forum and they seem to be running ten times the volume of messages. It could be the tolerance, (naah.. It's probably the boobs).

Electroglyph -- You hit the nail right on the head. In my opinion the original poster is well intentioned... Yet horribly misguided. In his quest for impeckable order his methods are discouraging to new members of this great community. Before I go on... Kindly allow me to reveal a little of my background so as not to be confused with the aforementioned "warez kiddies". I am Senior developer with a decade's worth of experience for a large global corporation (which shall remain nameless) under my belt. I am a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer, Microsoft Certified Sollutions Develper, A Microsoft Certified Database Administrator, a Sun System Certified Java Developer and a certified trainer in all of the above -- Which means I am certified to teach anyone out there to get their certifications. One could easily come to the conclusion that somebody with the above resume would be justified in placing themselves upon a pedestal and passing judgement upon the less experienced. Yet, for some incomprehensible reason, I do not see the need to badger newcomers regarding their software version or which page of the manual they reached prior to coming here for assistance. Rather.. I prefer to take the time to give each unanswered question proper consideration -- no matter how "newbie-ish" it may appear -- for the simple reason that I firmly believe that everyone should have the opportunity to acquire knowledge via the medium they are most comfortable with. For some this would be by reading a manual... For others the best route to follow is to ask those with the experience required to supply the answers they need. To illustrate the above.. I submit my contributions to the ASP101 forum (http://www.asp101.com/forum/display_forum.asp?fid=1) which, as even a casual glance will show, is not designed for experts. It is for beginners -- People that just got done reading their ASP for Dummies book. Do an advanced search for author "Bound4doom". Or you could go to www.techrepublich.com. A place where you can award points to people for helping you solve their problems and again look me up. I am the guy sitting there with over 15000 points, you only get 500 points to give to people for answering your questions, that is total you get. You only get more by answering questions and someone awarding them to you. there are other sites out there too I hit, VBForums.com and javascript.com and so on. The above is not a form of bragging -- though I suppose it could be perceived as such by some -- but, rather, to make my point that even those of us with certificates up the ying yang were newcomers to various aspects of IT at some point and I firmly believe that every one of us that has ever received an encouraging word from a "higher up" should repay the kindness by nurturing the newcomers of today. These communities thrive because people are willing to help and not judge. My contributions are not done for monetary gain since, quite obviously, I do not get paid for it. Most of the time I never even get a thank you. But that is not the reason for my involvement anyhow -- It is something done out of respect for those that came before me and, hopefully, it may encourage the veterans of tomorrow to do the same. Someday I will be a veteran in the world of Bryce. And I will be here answering the questions people have if they have the free trial or not. But I digress.. Yes the original poster is well intentioned -- But we all know where the path paved with good intentions leads, do we not?

Vile, just a clarification... when I said I felt the same way, I meant about the "boob" thing. As for dumb questions about the programs, the only dumb question is the one that isn't asked. I remember a day when I asked "What does Bryce do" and even now, when I learn a new trick, the answer to that question gets larger.

Actually I think Eric has a good idea. When you are here long enough and the same question appears on the forums time and time again every week then that tells you people are just too lazy to look for the answer and want everything handed to them on a silver platter. I have no problem answering questions and people on this forum can tell you I answer a whole lot of them. But when you get someone asking a question that is obviously in the manual if they would have bothered to look then it get a bit nerve wracking or even tedious to answer the question over and over, especially when a simple search on the forum will usually get the answer...that's what it's there for. Now if someone looked and still can't get then ask away. But questions like "I just got Bryce, how does it work?" sorry I'm not going to post the manual because someone is either too lazy to open the book or downloaded from a warez site. I've been using Bryce for almost a year now and am still learning it, I have Real World Bryce 4 that I'm only have way through. I've asked some questions but usually only after I've exhausted all of my resources. I don't think it's too unreasonable to ask new people what version they are using (which can influence the answer in itself) or if they have at least done a search for the answer in either the manual or forum. Many times I've said do a search because I get tired of posting the same thing over and over.

I'd liked to weigh in on this one. Like bound4doom,I have some serious IT credentials, but in other areas. Following my hearts desire and becoming a website developer led me to 3D modeling which has become my passion over the last few years. Admittedly, there have been times when I've asked a question before reading my Bryce books, but I try not to. I do this because I am impatient for results. Still, I need to be reminded to "RTFM" on occasion, so I'm not offended when someone tells me that. I'm not really new to Bryce or Poser. I just don't get to play with them as often as I'd like. (You want that website up when?!?) Since I run into warez kiddies in other areas on the web, I too, love drop-kicking them. Perhaps new folks could be referred to the appropriate tutorial instead. There are tons of these things out there, some of which are exceptional and include illustrations.

I also agree that there are, for the most part, no dumb questions, though I am sure that bound4doom and I have heard some (coming from the network side of things). When it comes to Bryce, I was quite green once. Having worked in IT and supported users, I can say that there are some geniunely dumb people out there. That doesn't make intelligent folks any better or worst, just more knowledgeable and better equiped to help. I look forward to the day when I can help here as well. As for the moderators: I don't know about Agentsmith, but Clay knows Bryce inside and out.

I help moderate the Amorphium Pro forum for Electric Image, and 90 present of the time a new person will state, ( I'm using the demo, or I just purchased ). Maybe because it is the software company's forum, people using illegal software are reluctant to post or very cautious when writing their message. Where in the forums not affiliated with the software companies ( like Renderosity ), people using illegal software ( warez kiddies & crack babies ) are more likely to ask or post their questions. Some very blatantly ( hey... somebody give me your SS# for Bryce 5...I lost mine ) But some are more discrete. And as a person who does not support warez or cracked software, I will try to determine if the poster is using an illegal versions. Judging...yes it is. But most people who spend 200+ dollars for a piece of software will read the manual. I don't learn well from reading. But I read the manual when I purchased Bryce. Didn't understand much of it, but it helped me find my way around and get the basics. If a legitimate user, doesn't read the manual, they are really inhibiting the learning process of the software. After I read the manual, I didn't understand much of it. But a year down the road it started coming together. And now 3 1/2 years latter I can completely understand when I look something up in the manual. Surly most know, there are countries in the world that do not honor international copyright laws. Where cracked versions of graphic software can be purchased for pennies on the dollar. And the people who burn software that doesn't require a doggle key, so it doesn't need to be cracked. How does this hurt the legal user, well it depreciates the value of the software ( I've paid over 10 grand for ). And it takes money out of the software companies pockets, which would help pay for future development. On the other note, Hopefully when the backroom is finished, it will help relieve some of the repetitious post. Like: ( How do I export out of Bryce ) 3 post under it ( Export out of Bryce, How ) At least it will give us a quick page to point to for these repetitious post.

One small point. If someone doesn't have the manual It may be becouse they baught the educational version of the software like myself and that version though perfectly legal does not come with the manual. not that I have had much need to ask any questions in the forum as the help file works fine for me. just don't jump down anyones throat becouse they don't have one. I ocasionaly find in these forums people are quick to condemn when a question is asked inocently but ineptly and misunderstood.

Many questions I have/had regarding bryce were solved by doing a google search: "bryce [insert subject] tutorial". The problem with this however is that you also find tutorials on different subjects which are also interesting and leave you trying things out which have no relevance to the subject you were searching. Is this making any sense? My only grief is with Poser. [moaning] I bought poser to find out that if you really want to create the lifelike characters you either need to know a lot about character-creating (which i dont (but am trying to)) or have enough credit on your creditcard (which i also dont) to purchase DAZ-people/clothes/props etc etc. [/moaning]. All i can say about that: thanks a heap to everyone who posts free stuff thingies (though they often require victoria I or II/micheal). sorry for going off-topic there Zig

Aye, I think the real issue here is ego backlashing. None of us are "THE Bryce Master", otherwise we wouldn't be here, we would have made our million dollars and be chillin out with spider monkeys instead of geeking on the internet. I own Bryce 3D(it moves!), Bryce 4, and Bryce 5 as well, but I originally bought my Bryce 3D(it moves!) from Half Price Books for WELL under half price. Does that make me a schmuck or a warez kid? I hope not, I like to thing it makes me a smart shopper. But in that case, someone had bought the program originally AT the retail price, and sold it to Half Price to pay their rent or whatever... So the Metacreations guys got their royalties, and everyone's happy. And as for the manual, it is easy reading, it might take an entire hour to digest it in it's entirety. I think that they did a great job on the Bryce 3D(it moves!) manual, and a stinky job on the Bryce 5 one... As long as we keep egotism and despite out of our posting, we should all be fine. We're artists not corporate execs, well, at least not here anyway! p.s. sorry about the (it moves!) joke, way outdated... I once got into it with a MAX user, he said 3DS was way better then Bryce and I didn't know anything about it, so all I could say was "No way, Bryce moves!"