Still, You don't render in Microft programs. If it took days for a letter to print, holding that computer hostage till the job was complete you better believe people would be up in arms. You cannot compare the two. Let me ask my question more clearly. What if I want to render the complex scene I just did and get working on the next scene on my second computer, rotating back and forth cutting time in half? Buying 2 or three copies, when I am doing all the work seems a silly way to spend my money. I may as well buy the big programs. I doubt I would get the upgrade special pricing from PPP two or three times anyway.

Chris, I'm good, and you?

bitting my tongue only for the moment, just want to keep an eye on this

JDexter: Yes, there are better protections out there ... bur everything failes. For me it doesn't matter if CL knows what HDD I have and what video card (or something else). For me that kind of protection is OK and I will take any other protection if nassasary. The only thing I want is a good working product ( ok ok ... P5 will be buggie but its not a OS or something like that so bugs can be fixed much faster) Lets see what happen when everyone gets his preordered Poser 5 :) I'm sure noone will talk about copyprotection after that. Tell me if I'm wrong ;) Chris

Anthony, for those of us who grew up with the desktop-publishing industry (Is it okay to admit that I still own Photoshop 1 and Illustrator 88?), we have watched as installations became more and more complex and more and more demanding. I can deal with that, but what I have issues with is your apparent lack of distinction between your core market of users and the warez thieves. You guys pulled a serious boner when you initiated that amnesty program last year: in essence, you told every legal owner of Poser that the money they dropped on the program, whether full or upgrade, was pissed away when all they had to do was get a warez copy and then pay the miniscule amount you charged to make it legal. You guys never admitted you screwed up on that one, and maybe, before you start with this PR fiasco, you should consider doing so. Yes, warez is a thorny problem. But you don't stop it by making it harder on the legal user. If your crack science team is so good, let them come up with some sort of watermarked subprogram that's built into the CD, something spread thorughout the program instead of isolated in one spot, that checks and double-checks the program for integrity. Make it truly difficult to find and your hackers are gonna be working till the wee hours to figure it out. But let's not pretend you're going to get rid of hackers by using something as relatively simple as a challenge code.

Spike, I'm fine thanks ... I think I have to get back on Rhino again the next weeks or so :) Makes the time shorter to wait for P5 :)

ouch, that hurts

The problem with your credit card example Spike is that the credit card stays with you. The code is not based on the current count of teeth in your head (or some other personal aspect of yourself) and has to be regenerated based on a tooth falling out. A very mismatched analogy. JDexter

I think this discussion is unusefull ... Poser 5 is ready for shipping and YOU can decide if you want to buy it or not. Your a the customer. If you dont like something you dont need to buy it. You know if you buy a red t-shirt it will be pink after 200 times washing ... dont you buy it because you know it? (ok ok this comparison is not so good) but you are the customer and you have the choise ... so do what YOU want. Chris

Dont mind me...Just planting a surveying stake here.

Hopefully with all this dissent, CL doesn't decide to give in and change the security issue now...especially with release right around the corner.... I would like my pre-order copy asap...not after they rework the protection scheme

1. Your authorization is based entirely on your Hard Drive. You can change everything in your machine, but as long as the authorized HD still exists somewhere in it you don't have to re-authorize. It will -not- survive a reformat, but your same challenge and response code will work after the reformat. So you should print/save your registration after completion and keep a copy somewere handy. << Well, this has answered MY primary concern. Since I tend to use the same HD for years and years (hey, as long as it's working and I've still got space, why replace it?) and it doesn't matter if I replace my video or audio cards or even my motherboard, then I'm good to go. As it is, I keep a file of my access codes and other such items so that I know where to find them (can you say rolodex cards, boys and girls?). So, if the codes will work after a reformat (and believe me, if you have win98 you reformat from time to time otherwise your programs just up and stop working on you and who the heck has $400 for Win2K?) then I'm good to go. Thanks for the clarification, Rylan, it's appreciated. Kate

Hmm, ok yes, if you don't like the "activation"/"challenge" (insert nifty word here), then don't buy it... That's exactly what I'm contemplating. I certainly don't agree with this and will not be buying as long as this "scheme" is part of the program. I legitimately own two copies of Poser so that my wife and I can play fairly on our own computers. But since I don't agree with subscription service programs, hardware dongles, call-home programs and all that garbage - I don't buy them and wont. I have kept up what I see as my "end of the deal" as an honest user and I don't feel the need to be "tested" in such as way to prove that I'm a legitimate owner. feh. I have accepted the "serial number" in products and that's as far as it goes for me.

Interesting thread. I wish I could read it all, but I have to mow the grass before it starts raining. How terribly unfair it is that no matter how often I do it, the damn grass keeps growing! Maybe one day the lawn will see things my way and realize the sheer hell it puts me through, and just die. Ain't life a bitch?

Netherworks: so you will never have P5 ... but its you choise so we have to accept it. Chris

MikeJ, you could always put in pavement or astroturf.

I have been reading this post and I've seen that a lot of people has valid and legitimate points. The Sad thing is that it doesn't matter how you complain about CL's security features for poser 5 they will not change a bit of the original program because this, they can make patches or upgrades for the ton of unknow bugs it will have, but the security thing is a closed discussion, so, I will ask, why spend too much energies in a lost argument?. CL's is not forcing you to buy their product, from my point of view they have been very honest with their costumers sayind what kind of protections and install options will have poser 5, that's not a usual conduct from software companies, they even let's you take the manual, before you get the program, so, let the company do what they think is better for them, and don't waste too much energies in pointless debates. Virus

bravo Virus.

Hey Sturkwurk, I have said that 10+ treats before ... where is my bravo ;) (just kidding) Well said Virus Chris

Hehehehe Sorry Chris! Bravo!!! :) Thanks Doug :)

Thanks Virus :D

Hey I don't like to live in the Earth because the gravity law, If I decide to jump from a 100 floors building It will makes me to fall down and I don't like that, I would like to float, but no, the gravity law is bad and perverse for me!. So CLs team If you don't change the gravity law I will not going to buy your product, am I clear?

uhmm ... changing the gravity law ... good idea but you will get in trouble with another industrie ... no bras will be needed then (just kidding) Chris

Chris, yes, surely not for me. Contrairly, I think this thread is useful. I would (like to) think that CL would be interested in the concerns of their customers and so I'm very happy that Anthony let us know the protection information before the software was released - it would have been an unpleasant surprise for me. But if others want to conform to this sort of "standard" then good for them. Hehe, I'm eagerly awaiting the day that I can walk up to that "hypothetical" bridge and sit and watch everyone leap off of it.

So as you see ... this discussion is completely useless. You cant change the gravity law and you cant change CLs protection system. As I said many times before ... you have the choise ... buy it or not ... So I think this threat can be closed. (full stop!) Chris

ok ok ... so keep this open :) but seriously, what can you change? CLs has this protection system now and I doubt that they will change it (Am I right or not, - Kupy? Anthony? -) You can discuss it to threat 500, nothing will be changed. just my 2 cents Chris

Yea, I guess the discussion is useless as you say. People who want something bad enought WILL get what they want, eh?

who said Poser 5 is BAD???

Personally I do not care if I have to authorize 1 time or 2 times etc as long as the reply is a quick one (and being half a day in front dont help much), as long as it is quicker than the 24 hours I had to wait when i got my Lightwave before I could fully use it I will not mind. But if you honestly think that this will stop poser 5 being warez you need to re-think, nearly all programs are even warez before they are even friggin out for us honest people to buy. Like I said I have no problem with doing a authorize on buying or first installation, but waiting for a key each time your computer messes up or you upgrade your hard drive or change os etc can and will be annoying to a lot of people and quickly. But hey do what you feel you think is best, I have already pre-ordered mine so nothing you do or say will make me change my mind, but remember the extra security only effects and hidders honest buyers.

Chris, nope I wouldn't buy that red t-shirt. I only buy black clothing :-D as far as p5 goes, when have the money will more than likely get it, in linux, since I won't buy anything for crashware os. and if cl doesn't port to linux then they are choosing to not have me buying it.

Forgot to turn off e-maila nd this thread is gonna expand quick unless it is locked prob

Ziggy3D: thats what I said ... they all have the choise ... I ahve preordered mine too and I cant wait to have it here! For me it doesn't matter what protection system they have ... I want my copy NOW! :D Chris

With one exception, I don't really mind having to the response code. It's a bother to be sure, but so are all those serial codes that are printed so small and hard to read. The one thing that bothers me is what if these companies that sold me software goes out of business and my harddrive crashes. Or I get a new machine. Anthony assures that they won't leave us hanging and that's probably more than we would get from Microsoft. And CL is actually a little more generous than some of the others using similar schemes. XP of course requires you to register within 30 days. I have Microsoft Office. (The next to last one. Can't remember what it's called.) You can only install that on one machine. And if you have to reinstall, you have to get a new confirmation code within 50 uses or it quits working. (I do think that should have been stated on the box.) And if you have to install it more than twice in two years, they start acking questions. I chrashed the first machine. Not my fault. It was due to the silly way Compaq implemented their Quick Restore with a partition. Then I got a new machine and Microsoft wanted to know how many machines I was installing it on, and whether I had removed it from the other machines. Many I was a little too touchy, but I did resented it. And they weren't exactly awful or anything, but if you're not doing anything wrong and someone questions you like you are. I guess you get touchy. I'm not sure, but I really don't believe they would let you also install this one a lap top. And then ZBrush has the same sort of security system. And of course there's Lightwave and with that silly dongle. So that brings me back to my main concern. Most companies don't plan on going out of business. And here I have several very expensive - for me - software packages. But what happens if they do and if they didn't have a plan in place. It does make me a little nervous. If I bought a lisense for a product, I should be able to use it even if the company has gone belly up. Of couse things change and life isn't perfect. Look at 8-tracks and vinyl records and CED video and Laser Discs. None of those companies care if we can use their products after they stopped making them. Kevin

Jaqui: Whats wrong with Linux?

Lightwave has a usb dongle now, hardly call it silly, works fine is hot swappable, most os detect and installs it easy. Another annoyance granted but doubles as a cool keyring addon:)

Chris, nuthin wrong with linux. microsht os is the one I absolutely refuse to have anything to do with on my comp. thinking about nuking redmond to get rid of the lousy sht

hehehe, well said Jaqui :) I'm off to bed :) maybe we will have more than 200 threats here. I'll look tomorrow ... night all Chris

As usual you are giving problems and headaches to honest consumers, you treat them as they were criminals, registrations codes, authorizations, etc, etc, etc.... All this is completelly useless, this isn't any trouble to any warez person, almost all software can be cracked in 30 minutes of work. Remember that the warez version of Xp appeared before Microsoft release it. These procedures and also Microsoft procedures, only encourages more the use warez software. The user has now the choice of buying a protected version with a lot of headache of enabling the software and surviving of all the windows crashes and reinstallation headaches, or to adquire a warez version for free or very low cost, opened and without any headache for installing it. Stop punishing and inquiring honest people, if you abuse too much, there is the risk that they become not "too honest".

My most used and registered programs are Bryce, XaraX, Paint Shop Pro, PhotoShop, Painter, Ultra Fractal, Carrara, Nendo, DreamWeaver, Organizer, Vue d'Esprit, KPT Plugins and Homesite (not to mention a host of utility and other programs.) None of them are protected by more than a serial number. Each of them is apparently available via warez yet somehow the publishers survive- except for Nendo, which seems not to be warezed (is that a word?) Poor buggers- I guess they do not realize that they are about to go out of business any day now... - Jack

I agree with what allot of people here that say: If you don't like it, then don't buy it. But I also think people should have the ability or a place in which to post their concerns (or complaints) no different than those of us that sit bouncing in our seats waiting for that red-hot copy to fall in our hands (or laps). Ever since Curious Labs put up their EULA for everyone to read before deciding to purchase Poser 5 (which they really didn't have to do, it was a curtesy so that all of you could make an informed decision before purchasing it) I have seen numerous posts regarding Poser 5 and the way it works. All over the Community there has been people posting concerns about the registration process needed to run Poser 5, concerns as to how "this or that" works, concerns about "if this has been fixed or not", concerns about ownership of Poser content and formats, concerns about the security of Content Paradise, computers and the Internet Portal that Poser 5 uses within the software. Concerns about the ability to virus scan the files before they are extracted into the software. Concerns on the future of Curious Labs verus today's (obviously questionable) economy. Curious Labs is very good at handling situations and trying to answer questions that people may have. I know for a fact that Steve Cooper comes to these threads and reads everyone's concerns and says: "yep, that's something we need to look into..." or "we've already handled that and here is how we have" or "this is why we did what we did", they do listen to the comments, complements, complaints and concerns that the members have. Not just here, but at ALL of the Community websites out there. Do they care about their product and want to protect it? You're damn right they do! Do they care about what we have to say? Bet your ass they do. And for those of you that are concerned or changed your mind, their EULA even allows you to return the product to them (unopened) so you can get your money back. Yes, we have the choice of whether or not we are going to purchase that software. That is our right, as consumers, to choose and Curious Labs wont fault us for choosing not too. But I know that they will ask why people wont and WILL work on ways so that those individuals will feel more comfortable to do so. They have to do that to survive, yes, but they also do it because they care. If Curious Labs wanted a bunch of brainless sheep, they wouldn't sponsor a website that allows opposing views or a place that allows concerns. Yes, the choice is to buy it, or not buy it. But don't attack people because they have concerns, Curious Labs doesn't. And be sure to be patient when waiting for an answer to those concerns. Just my thoughts, Jack

Shonner, Are you accusing the posters of this thread at being dishonest for voicing their displeasure at an iffy copy protection scheme? I certainly hope not. JDexter

At a (thankfully) former job I ordered two really useful under-$50 applications put out by small companies. One had a machine-specific challenge code, the other didn't. My boss was very pleased with both, but when I put in purchase requests for copies for my project team, he rejected them and said one copy was enough to install on all five computers. I argued that the investment was small (less than what my research time and these discussions cost him!). However, when he discovered the challenge code only worked on my computer he immediately signed the order for it - but not for the other. So the more trusting little company got screwed. Dongles are another matter! We had a horrible experience with a misplaced Max dongle that almost derailed a project. A Poser dongle might make me think twice before upgrading. There are privacy issues I care more about: - If a company goes into bankrupcy, customer info is an asset that is likely to be sold whether the company wants to or not, regardless of good-faith promises - don't give more info than you absolutely have to. - Don't use your mother's actual maiden name when asked, too easy to find out - make one up that you always use. - Check if your financial records can be accessed by telephone using your name and social security number; after numerous calls and letters we got systems changed for our mortgage and credit cards to a real password. - Don't use those darn electronic signature pads at stores, ask for a printed copy to sign (I know, they can scan it in; they're just irritating, so why make it easy?) - Most of all, never assume anything is private; I'm amazed at folks who don't know every keystroke at work can be monitored, erased files accessed, and little video cameras can be anywhere. - And never assume you are too small-time to attract notice; unknowingly your path may have crossed sometime with some big fish and wham - your dealings suddenly are in a very bright spotlight (just saw this happen to someone who really deserved it, but still scarey.) Enough paranoia for you?

Shonner, ..Installing software is a privilege. Not a right. Huh???!!! When I pay for that privilege you better believe I consider it a right. Can you imagine leasing a car if the salesperson said "Thanks for your money- maybe we'll let you drive it, maybe we won't"? (not that this is what CL is doing.) ...No respect for the hard-working people that made/own the software. Treat me with respect and you will have my respect. It is respect that is a privilege, not paid licenses. ...The real problem is most people here don't want to be honest because they are not honest people to begin with. In another thread I voiced my objections, decision to forego P5 and my sympathies towards CL's choice in this matter. Frankly, I resent the suggestion that I am a thief merely because my relatives are not sheep. To state an opinion is one thing. To assert sweeping generalities based on nothing but personal whimsy is quite another. - Jack

Anthony said: "You may install Poser 3 times on one machine, 3 machines, or any combination thereof. My God, what about the fourth time? Actually, we have a couple of customers who for one reason or another have had to exceed 3 installations, usually due to upgrades, viruses, etc. What happens? A flag pops up saying "You have exceeded the maximum number of installations". You call Customer Service, verify your registration information, and get your installation counter reset. The whole process takes 90 seconds. Easy? Simple." Well it may only take 90 seconds, but from the UK that is a big wedge of cash on one phone call...besides if I'm only licensed to install it just 3 times, then the cost you will be charging me for the license is over priced IMHO! Have you not realised the hassle that your international customers will have to go through, if you have not put up a worldwide network of Customer Support Agents within every country? If you are as worried about your customers, as much as you say you are, then that is the type of customer support I expect! Too much hassle in my opinion :o( Cheers --------------------------------------- A Life? Cool! Where can I download one of those from? ---------------------------------------

I posted one solution way back in message #43. It requires no changes to be made. And it can be implemented at any time. I'm sure other people could come up with other workable solutions as well. The problem is CL MUST secure the software. At least for the initial release. Your assignment--(should you choose to acccept it)-- Is to find a way to get CL to eliminate it down the road after the you've done your part in helping the company succed. ScottA

There seems to be a kind of romance that goes on in this forum between the users and Curious Labs (and also DAZ). It's as if they're looked upon as our "good buddies" who are there to make our lives more fun. Anybody who speaks ill of them or questions their business practices gets shouted down. "Please don't upset our good buddies. They might get mad, take their ball and go home. Then we won't have any fun." Wake up people. All businesses are out to make money. Period. Curious Labs wants to make a profit and make itself wealthy. It's no different than Enron, Worldcomm, Nabisco or any other business, regardless of size. To do so, they have to cater to us, not the other way around. We have every right to complain, to be wary and to watch them like a hawk. In return, when they give us what we want, we reward them with many dollars of sales. They are NOT our friends, they are a service provider. It's our hard earned cash that they are after. If they don't want to provide for us, then it's their problem. We are the dog, they are the tail. Woof! jjsemp - aka "Rover"

"Actually, one of the next steps is downloading the software to whatever computer your at and paying a rental fee to use it." Another choice: Use open source software

Shonner, once again, sweeping accusations. You need to watch that. Scott, I have no problem registering the program, although I think for some odd reason a company is not legally allowed to require your name and address when you register. (Hence when you activate an MS product, it says registration is optional) but I would like a registration method that is not linked to my hardware, since hardware is transient. THat said, I could live with this activation scheme if it was used for the initial install and you voluntarily register your software with the company. After that point, if you chose to divulge your name and personal info, then any time it is activated it goes by that information and unless it is grossly installed (ie, been warez out) then it would not matter. For those who chose not to share their personal information, then they could live with the hardware scheme that is currently involved. As I said with the Microsoft issue earlier, I register all my products, and the MS rep knew my name without me telling them, therefore it was obvious I was a legal user. At that point I should never have to call them to reinstall a product I have purchased. I feel the same way here. When I register the first time, the serial and my name are linked. And it should not matter how many times I upgrade or replace my HDD should I have to waste time going through the whole process again. IF it was being used excessively, then they would have the information they need to pursue matters in a legal court of law, to which they have the right to do. JDexter JDexter

After reading the above I have decided to cancel my order to poser 5. Yes I had it on back order. I don not like having to send in for new key every time I format my computer nor do I like that you can only run on one computer at a time. I have a person who helps me learn poser and other programs using same program on two different computers at same time. I will continue to use old poser 4 untill something better comes along. iloco

I don't think I will be upgrading now either... Here's why: I purchased Zbrush and they implemented a similar "security" scheme. I haven't even bothered to reinstall it on my computers after having to reformat all 3...it's just not worth the hassel to me... I am ill and need a computer in the bedroom for days when I can't get out of bed. I also have a laptop that I use outside in the summer and my main one in the office for good days... I just don't have the energy to be trying to keep the computers working properly and have to do these re-registration things when they screw up... Think I'll just continue with Poser 4...thanks anyway... Don't mean to sound cantankerous but I'm having one of my bad health days... Dawn