I just bought Poser 5 and I'm really bummed with all the stuff going on between DAZ and Curious Labs. I really don't want to wait until DAZ develops a new application and I really can't afford to pay $200.00 more for a new Poserlike program. I was expecting to see soon after Poser 5 release updates to the Tailor that will make it more compatible with Poser 5. Like maybe a way to make comforming clothing into dynamic automatically and a way to morph dynamic clothing into fitting any character. Now with all the controversy between the two companies is like everybody is going seperate ways. I also would have thought Curious Labs would have adapted the face room to work with Mike and Vicky. These stuff that is going on between companies is very unfortunate and the ones that end up loosing is us, the customer. DAZ and Curious Labs working together was a winning team. Each one by themselves I'm not too sure about it.

I shouldn't say I just bought Poser 5 since I've had it for two months now but I guess its still new enough for me to phrase my sentence like that.

Very true. But I wouldn't hold my breath till we have a Happy End. :|

AFAIK, DAZ has not purchased a copy of Poser 5.

"AFAIK, DAZ has not purchased a copy of Poser 5." Suuuure and I still believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

Um... Simon, in defense of Jeff, he is completely right. DAZ has not and wont purchase Poser 5 and have stated such on their website and the reasons for not doing so. And like some other companies I know, nor will they be creating any product for Poser 5. Anyway, Jeff is right. Jack

Excuse me Jack but I can't believe a company that is creating a competitive product hasn't purchased and are not looking at their competition. I have worked in software development and the first thing you do is buy all the competitive applications and study them, if not how the heck are you going to come up with something better, thru divine inspiration?

But they can't admit it and release P5 compatible products. ;P

Yup, MadYuri you've got it!

why would they have to buy Poser5 anyway? with all that Daz has done for poser in the past I'd have thought a free copy or 3 would have found their way to Daz. A more important question though is can we expect another shaggy horse story anytime soon?

Personally, and this is only my opinion here, but they needn't buy the program to look at the competition or create a competitive product. DAZ has been around and worked side by side with Poser since pretty much it's beginning. So they are well aware already of how the basic program works and current improvements that can be made to enhance the sellability of that software package. Add to that the fact that, here on a public forum, there is a Beta Test going on about the current build of Poser 5 and they have every ability to go in there and find out what problems Poser 5 is experiencing without even having to buy the application. Also, to further add, it isn't a mystery what modules have been added to Poser 5, since those modules are third party development, and all DAZ needs do is call the respective 3rd Party companies and negotiate with them the ability to utilize and incorporate these same modules in their own program without ever needing to purchase Poser 5. Furthermore, there is also the public here and other forums, who continue to post enough of their "Wish List", desires and complaints which provides a starting point for a Poser-like program without ever needing to purchase the competitive product... Also, by not purchasing it, a company like Curious Labs would have a difficult time making any allegation that DAZ had disesmbled the Poser code to create their competitive product. So no, it isn't necessary to purchase Poser 5 to create a competitive product. All of the tools and information to do so have been provided here (and at other Poser sites) publically for free... without having to spend one dime. :o) Jack

I pleadge allegiance to the brand name of the Digital Art Zone.

In all seriousness, Simon hits the nail on the head here with "the ones that end up loosing is us, the customer".

It's almost like two kids getting a bit too big for the lil kids sandbox. I'm sad to say that i've seen this sort of thing happen with one webhost after another. I'm getting an old familiar feeling with these two companies both of whom, I've really enjoyed doing business with. With webhosts trying to make it, they are all about listening to their customers and responding to keep us happy. you let some corporate mag call them the #1 host or some merger wqith a big company happen and that stuff is all but over. "I'm soory Sir if you don't like the fact that we have 3500 other websites on your box. If you don't like it, you're welcome to go elsewhere. Our main focus is now major clients such as AT&T"

I feel in many ways this has sort of happend to DAZ already and they managed to turn things around somewhat. I'm not sure what the future holds for CL. I can hope for the best, but I just don't know. It's not a company I'd buy stock in at this point in time given what I know.

I'm sorry if this is off topic. But this just seems like another in a long list of inconveniences to the community due to the falling out between the two giant kids.

I read somewhere that DAZ wanted 30k each to make Mike and Vicki work in the face room. I don't see the problem with that figure considering the benefit to P5. Maybe CL jus couldn't afford it or thought it was an exorbiant ammount. As far as I am concerned the face room is useless in it's current state.

Ah well, interesting time to be a fly on the wall I guess.

Regards,
Brent

Jack I'm sure DAZ has disected Poser 5 already, to think different is just being ingenious. That's standard procedure for software development. A forum is by no mean a substitution of having and working with the program.

Brent, it was the other way around. DAZ wanted to make their character's Poser 5 Face Room ready. Curious Labs told DAZ they wanted 30k ( for each character) to make Michael and Victoria Face Room ready. It is my personal belief that Curious Labs set the price so high so that DAZ would purposely reject the "proposed" offer, believing that their (CL) derivitive(sp?) characters: DON & JUDY could beat DAZ's Michael and Victoria characters. Jack

Simon, you are going to believe what you are going to believe. There is no changing that. But I prefer to trust the word of DAZ who has stated both publically and privately that they haven't purchased Poser 5. And my personal belief, is that DAZ's program is going to be more like Poser 4 than like Poser 5 anyhow. So they wouldn't need Poser 5. Mind you, that is only my personal belief. But then again, why purchase a buggy application and try to mimic it?? When you have a previous build with much less bugs to mimic... Hmmmm... Jack

I wonder have Daz & CL never heard of Bartering? One person sets an outrageously high price then they gradually bring it down till both parties are happy with the price. I don't agree that we the customers are going to be the biggest losers in this situation, afterall we don't stand to lose our jobs if both companies go down the pan. If Daz stop supporting Poser altogether & their program turns out to be a turkey both companies will be gone pretty soon & we the customers will move on to something else. We lose Poser/Daz thingy but they lose jobs/houses, the community will mourn them for 5 minutes then forget them both. Wake up CL/Daz & smell your coffee do you really want to lose your companies? I'm sure Corel or Adobe would love to take Poser/Daz thingy off your hands.

Kupa had stated that the 30K was negotiable. Dan Farr then stated he did not know that, until it was too late to be done for Poser 5.

::chuckles:: Like I said previously before (and I am sure that DAZ would agree with me on this), setting a price that high and expecting the person to continue sitting at the table and negotiating down from there is pretty conceited. My opinion still stands, sorry, that CL didn't want to be troubled enough to work on making Michael and Victoria Face Room ready. It would've taken time away from them releasing their buggy application and been direct competition to their DON and JUDY figures.... Jack ~done severly Tongue in Cheek.

nah it's never too late, they could still get each other on the phone and sort it out, they're just being bloody stubborn is all.

Jack, That revelation is staggering. I mean STAGGERING. What an assinine thing for CL to do. Anyone, I mean anyone who has tinkered with the millenium characters can tell after 5 minutes of exposure to Judy that she isn't in the same league as Vicky. No diss at all to Colm and RDNA, it's just a simple fact. You can't blame them for promoting their creation. Heck I think it's cool they're in there so we have more default figures to play with. But, I mean come one, or in the words of Val (Kevin Bacon) from Tremors, "What the hell is going on? I mean what THE HELL IS GOING ON?" Someone explain to me why DAZ would want to pay to have their commercial characters included in P5? Is there a financial kickback for that? Are Syyd and Colm getting a slice for their fine work included in P5. How about all the awesome stuff on the bonus content cd? Those guys getting a little something something? I mean shouldn't it be the other way around with DAZ? Barring some radical change of attitude toward content providers, I'd be willintg to wager CL won't be the ones developing Poser 6. I mean, do they really think their users wouldn't flock in droves to any competitor that offer a more stable program? What it all comes down to is that instead of using the 3 years to recode Poser from the ground up into a new program, I guess they were preoccupied with how to protect their intellectual property. If DAZ codes a software from the ground up, it is almost guranteed to be a more solid peice of software. Furthermore if they have the vision to offer it for around $200 and just use a simple serial registery, we'll see who is screwing whom. The landscape of this community will look very different. and where some of the Giant kids are today, there may be a big ass greasy spot tommorrow.

This morning I got an email from Curious Labs letting me know that the price of Poser 5 has been reduced. I'm glad to know that pre-ordering the upgrade from Poser 4 to 5 got me the lowest price possible. Or at least I would be if it had gotten me the lowest price. As it is, I'm not amused. Poser 5 was released with too many bugs. The first service pack helped but not enough. To have to put the second service pack into a public beta within 6 or 7 weeks of the product being released is insane. I don't expect any piece of software to be perfect but the bugs in Poser 5 makes it a pain to work with. If/when DAZ comes out with a competing product to Poser, I'll probably buy it. I've been much happier with DAZ than with Curious Labs.

I didn't get that email. What was it reduced to?

SONOFA....Now that just tears it! It's only $319 November 15th. Dammit, I want my $30 back. Doing something like that this soon after the initial release just feels like a slap in the face to me.

$319.00 until Nov 15, 2002

They need cash to make ends meet, sales are probably down and they have no content to sell like DAZ does so...

The price drop on the upgrade from Poser 4 to 5 is only $10 but it is still annoying. I emailed Curious Labs asking if I could get a $10 refund. Unsurprisingly they said no.

Maybe sales are down because the program has so many bugs that people are waiting for a stable application before buying it... rather than paying a bunch of money and then beta testing that product in the hopes that one day the application "might" work. :o) Jack ~who's getting back into the vocal way of things...

My prediction stands!

Easy Jack..rumour has it that your particular post could be misconstrued as "tagging" which has been known to result in heavy penalization or at least which could find you wisked away to a dark, lonely room. Did I mention its lonely there too.

"Barring some radical change of attitude toward content providers, I'd be willintg to wager CL won't be the ones developing Poser 6." Prediction noted and agreed upon.

i personally dont think that we the consumer will suffer as stated above....instead we the consumer will benefit from it the fact that daz and CL are competing with each other only ends up saving us cash......i just wish daz wouuld give the commuunity an idea when his poser like program will come out......this is no difference than coke and pepsi .......nintendo and play station....compitetion is good business nnuu

{I wonder have Daz & CL never heard of Bartering? One person sets an outrageously high price then they gradually bring it down till both parties are happy with the price.} The thing about bartering is, if you set your price TOO outrageously high you risk having the other person just walk away thinking you aren't serious. This is regular business here, not a flea market or street vendor situation. Liken this more to setting a price on a house you are selling. You set the price a little higher than what you expect to get. If your house is appraised at $200,000, you might set the price at $225,000 to give you some negotiating room. Set the price at $2,000,000 and nobody will even LOOK at your house. Before you get to thinking that comparison is out of line, consider this. Here's what Face Gen charges to convert a mesh to work in their software (CL's face room is licensed from Face Gen): {The Custom Mesh Service is US $950. Contact us at sales@singularinversions.com or at 604-730-1727 (PST). Bundle Deal: Purchase the Custom Mesh Service with a Re-Distribution License and get both for US$1,450. } Now, granted there may be some slight differences in procedure here (between Face Gen and their licensed software), but $30,000 was not a serious number. I would have walked away from the table, too. That number was a slap in the face.

Perhaps the "vocal minority" has had an effect on the "buying majority"?

Wait a minute here... let me see if I understand this... Curious Labs has reduced the cost of the Poser 5 program, 8 weeks after it's release?? This is bad and shows just how little sales that they've been generating (not surprising considering the EULA, bugs and reports about it posted on this site and other Community sites and the reviews it's been receiving in 3D Mags)... But add to that, the fact that they wont offer a refund of ANY KIND to people who just purchased their product (despite the bugs) what are they THINKING?!?!? Hell, they could've at least offered a Gift Certificate to previous owners to purchase something from Content Paradise (opps, scratch that, it isn't open yet) or maybe to one of the Content Paradise Partners online stores... This is NOT the way to win Consumer Support, CL!!! Jack (who is beginning to wonder if someone is purposely sabatoging themselves)

This morning I got an email from Curious Labs letting me know that the price of Poser 5 has been reduced.<<< Yea, I got it also. Kinda like a kick in the teeth, wasn't it? We pre-order, get a program buggier than a U.S. Embassy in Moscow, then we are offered the privilege of being a beta-tester for a possible working version and now? We find out that as a reward for our patience and trust new buyers get it cheaper. I think CL just dissed this pissed-off devil dog one too many and one last time. casamerica, A Pissed-Off Devil Dog EAGERLY Watching the Clock. "New Computer - $2100.00. New Desk - $500.00. New 3d Models - $400.00. Poser 5 - Worthless. For everything else, there's Poser 4 and Vue d'Esprit."

I got the email and laughed. Sorry, but I couldn't help it. My first thoughts were, one that the upgrade sell price was a joke. If they wanted more sells, then they should have made a cut, a major cut in the upgrade price. My second thought echoed what has been said here. So soon and cutting prices. I then wondered if CL was hearing the footsteps coming up from behind them. DAZ is running hard to catch up and will have the momentum to overtake and surpass CL at this rate. While CL blunders around fixing P5 trying to get it to work, DAZ storms out with it's software. If it is reasonably priced and works, then I am afraid that CL will bite the big one. I haven't gotten P5 yet, simply because I am still waiting for the dust to settle and see what is going to happen with the software. I have enough problems that I don't want to install buggy software on my computer. I am waiting now for a stable version of P5 after a service pack or 3, or DAZ to come out their product. Either way, I will end up with only one of them THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE Sorry, but I couldn't resist that line ;}

Attached Link: Mike and Vicki 3 Wishlist

"We lose Poser/Daz thingy but they lose jobs/houses, the community will mourn them for 5 minutes then forget them both." I disagree. There are still plenty of Poser 4 users who refuse to upgrade to Poser 5 that DAZ can support for many years to come. I have Poser 4 & 5 and still prefer to use 4. I may never use Poser 5 since CL really didn't upgrade the features I was looking for (animation improvements and the face room isn't what I expected). And the rest of the program just got more complicated for no reason. I think they were/are trying to attract high-end application users such as 3DS Max and get away from the hobbyists. I would miss DAZ for more than 5 minutes, because their customer service and quality beats anything else I've seen on the Net (not to knock many of the fine items in the MP).

Curious Labs has reduced the cost of the Poser 5 program, 8 weeks after it's release??<<< You got it, Jack. >>>But add to that, the fact that they wont offer a refund of ANY KIND to people who just purchased their product (despite the bugs) what are they THINKING?!?!?<<< Merry Christmas, suckers? casamerica

Poser 5 was the biggest waste of money for me this year. At the time I bought it the exchange rate was low (still is) so it ended up costing me $830. Nice huh. Now to top it off I could have saved myself some money if I hadn't pre-ordered rolls eyes Curious Labs will never, ever get another cent of my money. This on top of the whole EULA issue really shows how far they have moved from the realm of sensible. If Daz bring out a stable program in which I can use my exisiting characters (and I don't give a rats ass if I can use pz3), and get a better render than Poser 4, they will get my complete support. Hell, I'll make content for them if they want. Poser 5 is a joke, just not a very funny one. ~Oh crap, I think I just tagged this thread~ snicker

hmm.

I thought that the reason for LOW Poser 5 sales was the registration process. How many more copies would have been sold without that? No one can know for sure, but let's see a show of hands from those that would have bought Poset 5 less the registration process. While we are at it, let's see a show of hands from those that would have stole Poser 5 instead of buying it had there not been a registration lock. I guess that isn't a fair question, as they probably downloaded a crack somewhere already. Back to marketing 101 for CL. Respect and trust your loyal customers. I think CL would sell more copies removing the challenge/response BS, then lower the price a few bucks. That's just my opinion.

OMG Xena - we often forget about the exchange rates inother countries - that is an incredible price for a coaster ;-] Simon - DAZ has stated that they were advised not to get P5 on the advice of their lawyer - furthermore they began production of their new software before the release of P5 - they didn't think CL was ever going to release a new Poser and let's face it their livlihood depends onit as well. So they began taking control of their own future in January, before they knew of P5. So there is no real reason to believe they would secretly install P5 to know what to do - heck theyjust have to look at the boards to know what not to do.

Oh also I find it very disturbing that they have reduced their price already - because I for one don't have full faith that if they go belly up they will provide alternatives to the authorization process.

All this stuff psss me off as well and as a P5 customer I am less than happy with the whole Poser 5 saga to date but let's get a few things in perspective.

1. Poser 4 was not a great program. It was buggy as hell with lots of features that did not work properly. For over 2 years Metacreations did not properly support the program. It was only when they put it up for sale that Larry Weinberg (acting independently) started to release the patches to the community that got the program functioning fully and this culminated with 4.3 patch under CL. P4 still has lots of bugs or buggy moods!
   We put up with it because we loved P4 and what it could be forced to do and also because this community was a rock of support and innovation.

2. The problems with P5 boil down to premature release due to financial problems in CL. In fact Poser 5 is getting a bit of a battering in the latest reviews (Computer Arts Nov 2002, Digit Nov 2002, 3D World #31 -current-) mainly for the bugs, lack of speed and lack of integration with high-end 3D programs like Max, Maya etc.

This is going to seriously damage sales in these Pro markets, which were a key target for P5 and are heavily influenced by such reviews. So who is responsible for changing the situation from that of "the most eagerly awaited 3D character app in recent history" to that of the debacle we now see?

I for one do not believe that Kupa and the CL staff would have ever wanted the current situation, unless they secretly endorse commercial suicide.
On the other hand, I do not believe that the beta testers could have failed to see so many of the bugs and problems that we are all experiencing or that CL could have been unaware of many of them.

Therefore, lack of cash forced CL to release a buggy beta.
But what about EGISYS the parent company?
Did they not have the resources to support CL for a little longer while the bugs were ironed out?
Maybe they did but were not willing, or got too greedy for a financial return or simply thought, in old Metacreation style, they would get away with it. Whatever the reason the early release was a bad, bad call and they are now reaping a whirlwind of community/customer anger, bad reviews and poor sales.
Will we ever get the truth and answers about the CL/EGISYS relationship and decisions to release the program early?
As we say in Ireland "Two Chances" - "Fk All" and "Sweet Fk All" on that front, so we can only speculate.

I actually love this program, want to continue using it and see amazing potential in it if all the bugs get fixed. I really believe it could be the best character program and much, much more if CL can get their act together. However, the sand is draining fast from the glass in the real world where perception is everything.

As to Daz developing its own program: Competition is the heartblood of innovation. I think it would actually be good for CL as a company if this happened.
Do I believe that Daz is going to produce a bug-free and superior competitor to Poser 5 on their first attempt?
No! Much as we might all desire it, I don't think so! ;0) But I will buy it and support them as well.

Only time will tell.
In the meantime it might be wise to give all of them a little more breathing space and see what happens.

Regards
STORM

The registration process bothers me in regards to the potential of being unable to use it in the future. Can't comment on the rest - I for one refuse to buy P5 because of the EULA and how it could affect 3-D Arena and the changes we have planned for the coming year.

This is so unfair and I feel used. I bought Poser 5, I have not used it yet. BUT when the sale for the bundle of Poser 4 and PP was on, I missed the sale by 1 day!!! So I buy Poser 5 thinking that I'll have functionality with Mimic and other programs. Nope. I use lightwave. Poser 5 plugin not done yet, no ETA either, cant use Poser 5. okay. NOW they extend a sale on Poser 5 til Nov.?! I'm mad. I could have bought Poser4 bundle at a reduced price if they had extended that sale and had a useful program. why is Poser 4 priced SOOOOO high?! You cannot even BUY Poser 4 standalone anymore from Curiouslabs according to their store information. So I can't even buy JUST Poser 4 and use it. I'd have to shell out another $419 with the $369 I already payed JUST to have existing functionaly that my other friends have at their houses. This BITES!!!

I really do have faith in CL, The people and the product. But, that faith is dwindling VERY fast. I want to have a banner and yell for CL with all thats going on, but i feel like I've been hoodwinked, and bamboozled. <> <> wait and see, wait and see. yeah well my wallet is gunna wait and see where the next bill gets sent. sorry for the rant, but I DO think people need to see and hear how this community is feeling.

It might surprise him (though it shouldn't now), I would like to defend one or two of the points Jack has made. If DAZ has posted that they have not bought P5 (I haven't read it yet), there are good reasons to believe it. First, I have no proof to the contrary. Second, my dealings with DAZ as a customer have been good. Third, Jack's point about not being P5 helps DAZ defend against any charge that DAZ disassembled it to work on a competing app is entirely correct. Otherwise, DAZ would have to construct elaborate protocols for keeping the disassemblers and reverse engineers separate from the programmers, whether one calls such protocols a "chinese wall" or a "clean room." It could be done in theory, but it's not easy, and not at all easy to explain to a jury. And since the initial P5 EULA (haven't looked to see whether there's a new one yet) contained language that would encompass DAZ's apparent efforts, passing on P5 would be the prudent move for DAZ.

"let's see a show of hands from those that would have bought Poset 5 less the registration process." At least one. That's why I've never bought XP as well. jon

That "being" should be "buying." And if you're wondering why I didn't preview my post, it's because doing so sometimes causes the loss of my post, and I'm too long-winded to retype things;-)

DAZ does not have any version of Poser 5 in any form. As it has been stated earlier, it is very important that we do not cross any legal boundaries in the development of our applications. As far as feature sets as well as the actual development of our application, they started in January of this year (long before the release of Poser 5). We don't need to have Poser 5 to know what features we want in the application we are developing. Our application is not intended to be a Poser Clone but a new 3D application that will have merits of its own. Animation, Posing, Rendering etc. are found in almost every 3D application. They all just have different ways of approaching those functions. As with everything else, some people may love what we develop and other may not. We are very excited about what we are developing and look forward to the day when we can share more concrete information about it. We appreciate all of the feedback and suggestions that we are getting from people in the community. This feedback is key to the success of what we are doing. Thanks for the comments, Sincerely, Dan Farr P.S. Back on topic, Mimic, should still be able to work with Poser 5 as that Poser 5 is backwards compatible. I am not sure whether or not Codetwister (the creator and developer of The Tailor) is working on anything that is Poser 5 compatible at this time.