Then check out the new P5 clothing set by Harvey Mann in the Marketplace area. Amazing. That's amazing, how do these clothes wrap around figures. I think that the dynamic clothing alone was worth the cost of upgrading to Poser 5. As I said in another occasion: wait before stoning Poser 5. Third parties have had three years to make Poser 4 what it is today. Allow just one third of that time to Poser 5 independent content creators, and I BET we will see amazing items that will add value to Poser 5 itself. They have just started, and never the less we're already seen amazing stuff, both here and with the new P5 hair at RuntimeDNA. We're just at the beginning of the road of Poser 5. For now, Harvey's clothes are in my wish list (I'm short with $$), but as soon as I can, I'll buy them. And just to amke it clear: I have no business or friendship partnership with either Harvery Mann or Curious Labs. What I wrote is simply my unbiased opinion.

Yes I agree the clothing looks amazing, I actually think the materials lab was woth the upgrade....I love my Poser5

I'm going to add my voice to this message in praise of P5. So many people are very quick to put this product down when, in reality, it is worth every penny (or cent). I've created some scenes in P5 that would have been impossible in P4... I'm proud of my investment and I certainly cannot say that about most of the software I have purchased! P5 Rocks!

Well, I haven't even installed it yet, and won't until I get my new machine, but I certainly don't regret buying it. 270 Euros? Hey, I've lost more running for a bus, as we say in Scotland. Well... not quite, but you know what I mean. It's less than the money I spend on film for a half-day photo shoot. I know it's all relative, but that's my take on it. I'm convinced that the Poser 5 griping will peter out within the next couple of months and we'll start seeing the full possibilities of this program. I'm not saying people are wrong to complain when an app doesn't work, but at least CL are going hell-for-leather to resolve the problems. I'll install when I have a new computer, when the bugs are finally squashed, and when my current project is safely finished and up for sale. mac

Even with the problems I've been having, I still haven't opened up poser 4 except to check that files work in it. Once the major bugs are fixed it will most definitely be a powerful tool.
I installed sr2-2 last night and when I left for work this morning my problem image was actually near the end of it's render. I'm anxious to get back and see it finished - Finally.
The complaining will lessen when it works better for everyone.

And yeah, Harvey Manns stuff is the absolute best. In fact, I needed a sign for a rack of tatoos we sell in our store... his Mega Fashion Clothes on Vicki was the best choice for the image I chose to advertise the tattoos.

I'm not bashing P5, I love it, but what gets me upset is CL's business practices. I think that once it gets some momentem P5 is going to be pretty amazing. I don't mind if there are some bugs. But don't treat us like mushrooms about it, be straight. Marque

"I can't believe the amount of whining that goes on around here. "

Then you've never been ignored while the program you've just paid quite a bit for doesn't even render.

You know, I could turn what you just said right around and say those who haven't experience the same problems need to show some respect and sympathy to those who have experienced a company ignoring their problems and questions.

Why is it people with no p5 problems aren't spending their time rendering rather than criticizing those who are having problems? The world doesn't revolve around those with no problems either bud.

I wuv my P5. I'd buy it again even if I knew of all the headaches I've put up with. Am I happy with it? Yes. The new features make it more than worthwhile. Was it what I expected? No. CL released the program before the bugs were taken care of. I know there are always bugs in new software, but P5 had much more than its fair share. Some pieces are still not in place that should have been in place the day it rolled out. Don and Judy are in some ways worse than the Dork. CL has done an exellent job with patch releases, although the first one actually made things worse for me. What bothers me the most, is that I'm still beta testing for them. Which is better I suppose, than the alpha testing I was doing the day I got it. I still believe that they owe us some compensation. I was REALLY POed when I found out about the price drop less than a month and a half after I bought the product, and after all the testing and bug reporting we've had to do. The purchase agreement was for working. fairly bug free software, that would work on the minimum platform stated, and CL did not deliver. I still think we all deserve some kind of compensation for everything we've put up with.

Oops. I should have said after I received the product. I preordered the first day. And this ain't whining. It's a statement of fact.

What is this price drop everyone is talking about? Did they drop the price and not give us anything back on it? After all we've gone through and continue to go through? Marque

These guys really take the cake don't they. This is disgusting. Not whining just ticked. Marque

Poser5 was a great investment ... our clients are happy with the results and so far that is what is most important to me.

Just a suggestion. Seeing as were into Poser 5 and there's no turning back, I too think that CL needs to go the extra mile for their current customer base. Perhaps compensation could take the form of extra features (list of ideas from everyone perhaps). Whether CL was in over their heads or whatever happened, many people, myself included, have had their share of headaches with this software. Therefore I believe that CL should go the extra mile in satisfying their customers beyond expectations. Obviously the first priority at this point is to make sure the software is solid, but soon after I think some new features could be added as extra value. This could go along way to soothe those people who have felt the sting of P5's initial short commings. Lets hope that Monday sees a renewed cooperation between DAZ and CL which would also go along way in appeasing people's concerns and stabalizing people's perceptions of each company's image. The forward momentum that would come from the EULA being properly addressed, will fuel all of the above mentioned possibilities.

I wish I could be on a line on Monday's conversation. I promise I wouldn't say anything. Well, I promise I'd try not to say anything. CL and Daz settling their differences would go FAR in helping the community feel more secure. I hope that the parties involved make that extra effort to demonstrate to us all that Poser 5 is supported by both of the major companies. I'll feel a lot better when I see P5 content at Daz.

To rewrite the EULA will cost 10,000 dollars according to Larry Weinberg. Is there really much chance of them spending ten grand to rewrite a document they have full confidence in? That's a considerable chunk of change for a company that needs the money it's started earning again. Not trying to be argumentative, just warning not to get your hopes too high. Daz and Curious Labs no doubt will talk, but they're both stubborn and protective of their own interests. It's not just a phone call and stroke of a pen. It's a legally based discussion and 10 thousand dollars. Daz have their concerns with the EULA as have a lot of vendors. Curious Labs have a vested interest in protecting their investment and their software in case they're dragged into court again. That's not something that will be sorted out easily. I doubt that one phone call on Monday morning will do it. I'd hesitated to say a week of discussion could do it. We'll see, but I'm nervous that people will get too excited over something that might not happen because of prohibitive expenses and legal requirements.

10 grand is nothing compared to future lost revenue due to lack of consumer confidence, and possible loss of control of the product. This will happen because in the end it makes good business sense and I think Larry and Dan realize it. I think CL was caught in a, "once bitten twice shy", paradigm but seeing the overwhelming negative attitude towards their current EULA within their market base, has helped them realize the necessity to change it. They will still be protected, only DAZ and hopefully other 3rd party producers will then fit into the big picture as well. Its really very simple and if it is presented otherwise from their current legal counsel then they are getting very poor advice and representation. Monday will be a day to remember. Won't it Larry and Dan. Everyone stands to gain and gain big in this. Thanks

Its really very simple and if it is presented otherwise from their current legal counsel then they are getting very poor advice and representation. I assume you're a lawyer then Lapis, as you're speaking so knowledgeably. Well, that being the case and you say it's simple then I suppose it must be. What a shame it never occurred to Steve Cooper and co to say so before now when PoserPros exploded into a 61 page thread on the subject or to offer discussion back then. I hope you're right, past events and legal dogma dictate that it's not that easy though. We'll see, and hope.

I won't be holding my breath either. I've been in business long enough to know that deals don't happen overnight and I think individuals who think that this entire issue will be resolved on one simple phone call are deluding themselves and will be the first ones to start flaming either company because it didn't go their way... ...don't believe me? Just wait and see. Jack

Damn right screw them sissies and whiners as long as our P5 works! Screw those losers that can't even open it let alone render in it! It's their fault and no one elses!

Never mind those pre-ordering fools who had to test beta their software! I laughed when they discovered they had to debug P5 before they could use it! Imagine the look on their face after they finally got it working and CL dropped the price to new users. LOL DAMN FOOLS!

They have no right to be pissed! After all they got 8 weeks of un-usability that no one else got right? So what those 8 weeks were filled with headaches, download problems, fixes, workarounds and other bullshit they had to put up with just to finish a render, after all they deserved it for supporting CL! Damn whiners! What did they expect? Software that lived up to the statement on the box? Dang fools. Let me guess... next they would want an EULA that makes sense.

Come on Positivity! I'd like to see everyone who has had no problems with poser 5 post here and make fun of those losers who have experienced problems! Whoo we rock!

sbertram: "you sorry son of a b*tch" very primitive... :(

Well, I originally meant to talk about Poser 5 features... surely not to start this huge flame. Perhaps it's not possible to talk about Poser 5 in a quiet way on this forum. Too much emotivity involved. I guess I'll drop the subject for a good while. - Orio

Orio, I sincerely apologize for partially derailing the thread. However, when legitimate users who have had problems are continually labelled as "whiners" and told to "shut up", it gets difficult not to respond to it. In the end, it does nothing more than to reopen old wounds better left to scab over and possibly heal.

"I hope you're right, past events and legal dogma dictate that it's not that easy though We'll see, and hope." Questor, I hope I'm right too. '1000 people beating at the leaves; one person chomping at the root'

The price "drop" is $10.00

Well, it was a good try, Orio, but praise or fair comment of Poser 5 is obviously not too popular round these parts. $10! Oh boy.... I coulda bought a MacDonald's Happy Meal for that! I'm so burned up with remorse at pre-ordering! mac

Fair comment is perfectly popular provided fair criticism is also allowed. So far it's been a few shouting at others on either side. There's nothing wrong with praising Poser 5 provided that praising isn't used as a bludgeon against those who have had problems and are having problems and isn't used as a denial to hide an awesome amount of bugs. Same that criticism shouldn't be used as a bludgeon to beat down people who are trying to look on the positive side of things. So far though, most praise has included a slam against everyone who isn't drooling. Orio's comment was the first of it's kind that didn't accuse people of being whiners and complainers, that was left until later in the thread. Sorry Mac, but I expected slightly more from you than generalisations. Nobody is putting down people who have a fun time or want to post something positive, but neither will other people ignore direct insults, abuse or inuendo. As with everything, you get good and you get bad, while they're both rational it works, it's the hysterical few who have a burning brand up their butt who make arguments. :) You may notice that there's been no effort from most contributors to this thread to cause trouble, not until Sbertram felt it was ok accuse everyone having problems of whining (post 6) - and even then most people ignored it, again it was sbertram who took it into the gutter with his colourful phrasing to Cyberstretch (now deleted). So, don't you think, Mac, that you've been a little unfair on the other, rational, non arguing, non accusatory, gutter free contributors to this thread? Most of whom have not been attacked by anyone for saying they're happy and having fun?

1. $10 is $10. 2) I preordered - no discount, and got unacceptable software. I, in effect, alpha and beta tested for free. Now for any discount to be offered to new buyers less than a month and a half after I got the software on a preorder is an insult. 3) There are LOTS of good things said about P5. I've said a lot of them. http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=929748&Reply=930295#20 However, P5 wasn't ready to ship, it wasn't as advertised, and parts still don't work right after 1 regular service pack release and 2 beta test service pack releases. I love P5, but CL has not fullfilled its part of our sales arrangement. Bugs are expected with a new release of software, just not this many or this profoung. I do expect some form of compensation for everyone who did preorder or bought early. It's getting better (lots better), but it isn't ready yet. I really appreciate everything CL has done to fix the problems, and I understand the business needs for getting it out the door as quickly as possible. They've done a good job fixing their mistakes. 4) In no way do I regret getting P5. The feature set is amazing for the price. I'd do it again even if I knew the problems I'd have. However, a deal's a deal, and other people don't feel the same. CL owes us compensation. And I'm not talking just fixing the bugs. That is expected. I want some free content or features. I don't think the complaints are whining, I think they're valid expressions of the frustrations a lot of us have. We're very luck to have a forum on the 'sity to express our gripes, and to share our experiences. Sometimes we get strident, and our frustration comes through in a big way. Why? Because it didn't seem like CL was listening. Things are getting better. The programming staff at CL should be congradulated for fixing the bugs as quickly as they have. Those poor sods are working their tales off for us, and I for one thank them from the bottom of my heart. They, and the beta testers have taken more than their fair share of abuse, when most of the problems came from management decisions. 5) What do I want? I want the rest of the bugs fixed. I want Content Paradise up. I want a set of figures that are a real improvement to Posette and the Dork. Judy and Don were a great dissappointment. I want CL to work with 3rd party providers so that they start producing more P5 specific content. Hopefully, this will happen on Monday when CL and Daz begin discussions again. And when P6 comes out, I don't want to have to go through this again when I preorder it. I don't really think I'm asking for that much.

Questor, 'Fair comment is perfectly popular provided fair criticism is also allowed' Well, it may be my imagination, but I've seen plenty of criticism (a lot of it understandable), and up until recently, not a lot of praise. Orio's was one of the few posts to date that took the other point of view.... and look what happened to the thread! 'So far though, most praise has included a slam against everyone who isn't drooling' I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that statement at all. People who have praised poser just didn't have the problems other people had, but I hardly think that can be considered slamming, and I haven't seen much that I would class as slamming. 'So, don't you think, Mac, that you've been a little unfair on the other, rational, non arguing, non accusatory, gutter free contributors to this thread?' Nope, I don't! This thread went off-topic, in my opinion, NOT with sbertram, but with Cyberstretch's reply (#14), which, to me, seemed like a nasty swipe at sbertram that had nothing whatsoever to do with his post. After that, the thread just degenerated. I'm sure I'll be taken to task for this, but I'm not trying to be nasty. Just saying it how I see it. If others don't agree... well, it's a free world and anyone can post their opinions of me here if they want to. I'm always prepared to listen to anyone, like yourself, who puts forward a civil and honest opinion. I may not AGREE with it, but that's life I guess. We can still all get along together anyway. I mean, we ARE adults, right? mac

pdxjims, Well said! A well-phrased and intelligent post. I don't actually agree with everything you said. I still think $10 is peanuts, but I must admit, reading your arguments, I can see that the actual amount may not be the issue. More the breach of faith implied by dropping the price. The only other thing I would say is that Judy and Don may be ugly and limited, but I wouldn't have expected much else after seeing Posette and Dork. DAZ have built an entire business around providing alternative figures. Admittedly, it would have made a helluva lot more sense if CL had gotten DAZ on board and done it properly, but as I say, I didn't expect it. 'And when P6 comes out, I don't want to have to go through this again when I preorder it.' And 'Amen' to that one! mac

I'm sure I'll be taken to task for this, Oh absolutely I'll take you to task, I'm not sure which tasks I should take you to yet, but I'll figure that out later. :) No, post 14 wasn't much of anything to do with this thread, I agree. Though it called a valid question it belonged elsewhere and shouldn't have been used in response to an interpreted slight (whiners), IM or something perhaps. I agree there have been very few "Hey, it's working now, lookit this" threads and not too many happy ones. There have been some, they're here in this forum from the start of it all but got swamped by "It's not working for me" comments. As "It doesn't work, it's broken" received "It must be you, it's working fine for me" answers. Those aren't what I'm on about. You'll notice that whining and complaining is used quite a bit to describe people who aren't praising Poser 5 or being happy with it - along with "shut up and go away" used in another thread. You may also notice I slipped a word in as well. Drooling. These words "whiners, complainers, droolers" are calculated to get a reaction. I don't care what anyone says regarding their use they are accusations and will usually get a hostile response. Yes this thread drifted off-topic, but nobody was insulting anyone, nobody was arguing, just talking a few things out. except for two people. Most worked around the couple of hot remarks posted and got on with things. Almost no thread here stays on-topic beyond post 10 anyway. LOL There has been a lot of criticism. I agree. Would you like to see the full compiled list of bugs to-date? Grounds for complaint I think - perhaps not grounds for the extremely hostile complaints that have happened and some of the imagery that accompanied it but as you well know people do get passionate. If Poser 5 is fixed properly people will get just as passionate in a couple of months about how good it is - same as they did with Vickie etc. "Damn she's ugly. insert invectives and list of complaints" Now? It's no different. There's another "happy with Poser 5" thread been started. I've not seen any arguing in that one yet either. So, yes I do feel you were unfair to the people in this thread who did contribute and didn't use provocative words. Sbertram started in with his "I can't believe the amount of whining going on around here" yet didn't qualify it until later. Cyberstretch may have been wrong with post 14 but as one of the voices at the forefront of questions and complaints against CL/Poser he may have felt a need to lash back. I don't know and I'm not going to pretend to know. I don't think that his post warranted the comment it received in return, quoted in post 24. Whatever though. You've seen topics here and elsewhere go wildly off-topic after a while and then swing back again. This one started to degenerate into "you suck" "no you suck" but it didn't need to and most of the contributors carried on chattering. sbertram had some valid points in his post, he spoiled it with "whiners". I have seen a lot of "whining" around here, from both camps, and some very heartfelt posts as well that were invariably buried by some hot head with a bug up his butt. It doesn't need to be like that - you know that, I know that. Generalisations are invariably the cause of most arguments. Especially in heated times like these people should be just a little more cautious of how they write what they write or they are going to get someone snapping back. We can still all get along together anyway. I mean, we ARE adults, right? Well we can all get along yes. You and I have had disagreements in the past and I like to think we're still net-buddies, we've not AFAIK torn into each other about anything. However, I disagree with the adults part. Look around the forum. Can some of these people be called adults? Either camp - pro or upset/anti - take your pick. Some of them are worse than 13 year old hopheads jumped up on their own hormones. Some aren't. It's the "aren't" that will eventually win the day and return to rationality. The hot-heads will fade, leave in a snit, or just go quiet except for the occassional eruption. Just like it's always been. Remember the "warez amnesty"? How that erupted across the forum in two camps? The "body-suit" fiasco? Release of Victoria then Mike? Pro-Pack? Avatar Lab? It's a cycle. It happens, people get passionate about it and blow off steam. Then the dust settles and sensible discussion and rational argument takes place until the next time. It's always the same. One last thing though. No, I don't qualify myself as an adult. I'm just as guilty of acting like a ferret on crack. But then, I've never hidden the fact that I prefer to act my shoe size rather than my physical age. :)

'We can still all get along together anyway. I mean, we ARE adults, right?' LOL Questor! Yeah, maybe that was a bit optimistic, not to mention ingenuous. Look at what the 'adults' are up to in the rest of the world. Killing each other every chance they get! Maybe it's better to act like kids now and again. Anyway, I'm not going to go through a point-by-point thing here. Suffice to say that, yes, you do have some valid points, and yes, maybe I was being a bit unfair. I think a lot of my reaction came from seeing an innocent post hi-jacked into and another, as you put it 'you suck/no, YOU suck' thread. Well, as we all know, that's the way thing go in these forums. And yes, I've seen some great posts buried underneath an avalanche of slime. Ah well.... And hey... of course we're still 'net-buddies'! I always read threads with the name Questor in them. Respect, man.... ...and apologies to the rest of you. mac

Yes, Poser 5 was an excellent investment. For $350.00, I got a pretty box to to put on my shelf next to my Photoshop box. Whenever I want, I get to read all the things Poser 5 will probably, at some point do (working Face Room, working Contest Paradise, FireFly render, etc.) And, for my investment of $350, I get to be one of the elite thousands that got to beta-test the product. I feel honored that the company would select me, a "nobody" to let them test their product.

JohnRender,

"And, for my investment of $350"

Are you saying that you're new to poser?

Upgrade price was $129.00 or so.

-Jeff

Jeff, Some people paid full price for poser to get the seperate user license - this is not exactly a state secret. Same as I would have done. I don't buy upgrades for various reasons, just the full version. It's becoming common to ask people why they paid full price as if some sort of accusation. Yet, with just a little imagination it can be worked out.

Well that's your reason anyway.

Yes, and the reason of several others. There's comments in a few threads here where people have explained why they paid full price, I don't see that it's an interrogative point to be honest. If people paid the upgrade or full price, is it really that important as long as they paid for it? Or are you questioning that the majority seem to quote in complaints the 300 dollar price tag? If so, fair enough because I've only seen one person who paid the upgrade price quote it along with a complaint, the rest have always used full price in their example.

It's no ones business whether someone paid full price or upgrade. I wouldn't even answer that question if I were John.

I agree Kendra.But look who asked the question.It's not worth our time.No matter WHAT price someone paid,they ALL should be treated the SAME.......With Respect.