On the issue of the specific party that repurposed DAZ/Zygote geometry, no we cannot discuss who this was. It was a company, not an individual artist that you might know in the community. We had our day in court and lost. We are actually prohibited from any specific reference to this company by name in relation to the matter. I can only say that it happened. Hopefully they don't do things like this any more. Larry

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=483699

I dont know if it was my earlier post or those of others that made you feel so compelled to speak into this thread against your better judgement. If it was mine, I apologize as that I did not intend anything that would be viewed as inflammatory or derogatory towards CL. It is a very tricky position for both of our companies in dealing with public issues. Sometimes it is best to remain silent and let speculations run amok and other times it is best to jump in at the right time to handle damage control. It is nearly impossible to always know what is best. We have sure made our fair share of mistakes.

I have always enjoyed working with you personally and feel that you try to deal with people on a fair and honest basis. The problem I have is that you may not know all the details of the dealings that DAZ has had with other individuals at your company. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that your statements in your post are based on misinformation rather than a desire to be dishonest or misleading. I do feel that your statements paint one side of the fence but leave the other untouched. I will discuss some of those statements directly.

First of all, the characterization that DAZ decided not to support development for Poser 5 in January is wrong. DAZ has decided, since January, not to support Poser 5 for legal reasons of their own invention -- long before our EULA even existed. How is this the fault of Curious Labs ? And how does this make anyone in the community happy? DAZ had full intentions to continue developing products for Poser 4 and Poser 5 until the time and point that we read the Poser 5 EULA. We did not invent legal reasons to not support Poser 5. If you, yourself, do not see the problems in the agreement, then why have you alluded that you intend to change it? You stated above that the main reason for the changes in the P5 EULA is to protect the community and DAZ. If your motivation is merely to protect our data, then to make things easier I suggest that you just revert to the Poser 4 agreement and we will take our chances. I am sorry if all of these EULA issues have come up purely as a result of your efforts to look out for DAZ/Zygote (or to live up to your contractual obligations to protect that data) and have no other ill intentions.

You have also mentioned concerns that appear to question DAZs sincerity about the face room set-up of our models. Admittedly, we were developing our own application at that time. This does automatically mean that we would not continue developing models for Poser customers. The Millennium Dragon, Platinum Club and the upcoming Victoria 3 prove otherwise. We were 100% interested in having Victoria 3 Face Room compatible but just not at the price we were quoted. I think Diane brings up a good question: did Curious Labs try to negotiate the price quote from your attorney to fix the EULA, or did you feel that they were giving you a good faith estimate? Along the lines of what I mentioned before perhaps you may not have all of the information about what was communicated to DAZ from others in your company. When the price quote was given to us, we were told that if we did not have you guys do the work then the two engineers who had setup the other characters would be laid off. That seems to contradict what you said about needing to pull people off of other project to do this work.

Larry, I see the benefits of not making our differences everybody elses problems. As you know, these differences have their roots a long ways back . We even mentioned something about it last year during the whole amnesty situation. (see the attached link). But with that being said, I have no problem if any of our discussions and dealings with each other are made completely public. We have nothing to hide. The only problem I do have is when only one side of the fence is painted. When only partial information is given then it may require more information to show the whole picture. Like you, we also will step in to protect our companys reputation.

I do have a message for the community. DAZ is 100% committed to supporting the consumers. We know that it is because of you that we are able to stay in business. We are investing all of our resources to bringing more opportunities and options for you, the customers. We have learned that the harder we work to serve you, the more likely we are to survive these tough economic times. When this means that we need to support Poser we will. If it means creating options that dont require Poser, then we will do that also. But most likely it means that we need to do both. Another thing, There is no one asking for you to pick sides in these issues. You dont have to. You have the luxury of reaping the benefits of the products that any company offers you.

Sincerely,

Dan Farr
President, DAZ Productions

P.S. Can anybody think of a way to make all this a reality TV show? We could all split the proceeds.

That's ok Larry. I figured that would be the case. Pssst.....Just slip it im my mailbox while nobody's lookin'. ;-) ScottA

Sorry, I need to correct a typo in this sentence. "This does automatically mean that we would not continue developing models for Poser customers." Does should say does not. One small typo can really change the meaning of a sentence. Dan

Somebody send a couple of tickets to Dan & Larry for a luxury cruise to the Bahamas, first class and a designated team of ten beautiful female assistants for each one of them for a week of pleasure and negotiations. I bet after that and a couple of beers we will have both companies working together and their products integrated as well as before.

I'm weary after reading yet another of this kind of long-winded threads about this type of no-joy topics, so I'll just cut and paste my response to another of these types of threads. I believe CL will eventually get P5 running as advertized, and we'll all be better off for having it's advanced capabilities. But if it continues to be more work than fun to utilize DAZ (or,out of fairness to DAZ, any other third party) products in P5 without first having to spend a no-fun amount of time tweaking them (with little to no support from the product's vendor - DAZ or otherwise), then my passion for Poser as a fun hobby will surely die off, and CL, DAZ and any other vendor for Poser-related products will lose another customer as my hard-earned dollars go elsewhere and my sparse free time is devoted to things that bring more joy and less grief. Period. Signing off...

This can be resolved. The EULA needs retuning and it must be done now. It all centers on this. All the other garbage will melt away within short order of this happening. Thanks guys for comming to the table. Lets all work together to make each other stronger. Your employees deserve it, your familys deserve it also. This community of artists deserve it. Keep thinking win/win and this will all have been a small road bump. Gentlemen, lets move forward. Who will take the first step? The time for accusations are over. We are living in the here and now. There's no turning back there's only this moment where decisions that shape yours, and everyone elses future, are made. Please, for the sake of all parties, act and act fast. Trust me, you won't regret it. Thank you

These issues haven't stopped me from buying what I like wherever it may be, except P5 and that's due to the EULA and my being a merchant and no other reason. I buy from Daz, rosity, rdna, looking at a couple items at poserpros, etc. I'm a big poser and 3d app spender. I'll pick sides, if I feel it serves a good purpose. Haven't seen a purpose in it yet and so haven't. I'll defend anyone or any company I think is being unjustifiably picked on. (Now, if they deserve what is said about them, my hands are tied. Can't help there.) What started out as legitimate concerns in many places seems to have turned into a gossip ring. I've found myself caught up in it, joining in the speculations and such. Need to better myself there. It can be very exciting and tempting though. It's good to post concerns in order to get more information, but perhaps we all need to think about the repercushions of what we say before we say it and make sure what we are saying has good grounding. Good tip is, if you don't know a point you'd like to make for a fact, state it as a question you'd like clarified. That way, the issue is brought up, your point is made, and you haven't risked misrepresenting anyone.

Excellent Post Dan. I'll call you on Monday. If your significant problem is the EULA, let's eliminate your EULA concerns, and go! Hugs and kisses, Larry

Thanks guys!

Finally! People talking and behaving like adults! Hooray! As for the rest of us, since it seems we will be informed, lets give both companies a break during these hopefully short negotiations. We can always jump on them again if it doesn't pan out. After all, aren't WE the ones with the money? Dan and Larry, come to Portland to celebrate when you're done. I, of all people, am not the one to find the pretty girls, but boy howdy, do I know where there's good beer.

First of all. Thanks Larry for your partial response to some of the concerns of the vendors Now how about the concerns of the users. (And potential users) People have been put off by the challenge/registration mess. Would it cost you a fortune to go back to the P4 type EULA just in that part? Get rid of that and youve got a sale. All the best.

My earlier comments bear repeating here. "The customer is always right" Damn we're a tough bunch...relentless...but worth it! Thanks again Larry and Dan. Cheers!

Okay, admittedly having no real other concern with this thread, I have always had an issue with that addage, "The customer is always right!" Actually the customer isn't always right, but the customer is always the customer (well, until they leave, at which point they... ahem, nevermind). Aside from the rambling, there is a difference.

Any chance that security thing in P5 could get changed? I gota ask. Someone had to ask. I'm still waiting. Not a word about it. My computer is still a incomplete, temporary, pile of parts. Still can't chance loading P5 on it for fear of using up my 3 installations as this computer-part-pile changes. Maybe I just need to take up sculpting instead and just give up... sigh...

Hey mate, the customer IS always right - if for no other reason than they PAY YOUR WAGES Chuckle I can live with all other aspects of P5 except the company hold the keys to my software - Be honest. Doesn't that at least bother some of you? neurocyber - Sculpting is fun :-) I built a "Box-o-bits" too, and i keep changing it (Hard drives included) So I'm a bit nervious about the limited install thing.

Larry, Again, thank you for the time that youve taken to reply back to me. Although your words certainly go a long way to helping me to believe there may be a chance in renewing my faith, either in whole or in part, in regard to Curious Labs, Egi-sys AG and Poser 5. However, I think that it would be fair of me to say, that my concerns regarding your companies and Poser 5, expand beyond the scope of myself and DSI. They also include concerns for this great Community who purchase your products and who purchase products that support your products and for the vendors and merchants who create those products. I just thought I should let you know that my concerns encompass more than just "Jack D. Kammerer" and happen to reaffirm or echo many of the concerns that the Community has been expressing for a long time. It is very important that you understand that, and realize that these concerns affect everyone who is currently suffering because of the current condition of the Poser 5 release, not just the people who have purchased Poser 5, but for those of us whose business and hobbies revolve around your company and its product. In the spirit of common goals, I will be temporarily holding off from posting my concerns publicly, till such time that weve had sufficient time to discuss those concerns and then inform the Community of the outcome of those discussions, since these discussions will directly affect them as well. With that said, I do not have your e-mail address (only have Steve Coopers) so if you could please provide to me your personal e-mail address and/or contact information either in this thread, site messenger or by sending it to my to e-mail address (jdkammerjr@aol.com), I will send to you my list of concerns and helpful suggestions. Rather than taking up any of your time during the weekend, I will hold off on sending my e-mail off to you till sometime early next week. Again, thank you very much for your willingness to put differences aside enough to work to the benefit of this great Community and hopefully a benefit to Curious Labs, Egi-sys AG and the creators of Poser Content. Sincerely, Jack D. Kammerer

Interesting turn of events. In all my years in these communities,it never ceases to amaze me how the wheel turns. After a while you see the patterns of the energy shifting. An ebb and flow that is as predictable as the tides. The recent Tidal Wave of controversy comes crashing down on the shores of these communities and wreaks havoc on our homes as we scramble to find a sense of order and understanding among the confusion.Sometimes even fighting amongst ourselves. It is disheartening at times to watch it all unfold. Kinda like watching a train wreck in slow motion, and as much as you want to cover your eyes and not look,there is a morbid curiosity that keeps you spreading your fingers and peeking through to see what happens next. But eventually it comes to an end,and subsides,and then the tide rolls back out again,restoring a bit of normalcy for a brief time. It is that knowledge that I take comfort in. The knowing that eventually ,although the landscape has changed, the community will again become that well oiled art machine we all have been a part of. The tides of controversy will no doubt return,but we learn from each one. And take comfort in the knowledge that it will pass. And so the wheel of fortune turns. I feel fortunate that I am lucky enough to be along for the ride ....and be part of the tide. Tom

"The customer is always right" is a slang not to be taken literally. It is a saying that means, without the customer, we(business X)don't exist). So in order to keep the customer we must adress his/her needs. Many people don't understand this either, which is why so many new businesses fail in the first year.

Hawkfyr, I agree. That's what I'm shooting for.

I'm sorry it would cost you $10,000 to fix something that should never have been released in its' current form (and of course here I am speaking of the EULA). If that figure was intended to generate sympathy, it went straight over my head. Maybe next time, in addition to more product beta testers, you should have some "normal" vendors read the EULA ahead of time and ask them what they think.

It worked!! It worked!! Somebody send the violins, the harp, the romantic music!!! A bottle of champagne!!! And the Steffy Stax lookalike oriental massage specialists: very important!!!

I take it you had good luck so far with the current patch? So far so good for me. I did notice a cropping size difference between the material room window and the pose window. Easily fixed.

Sorry Lapis, haven't tried the patch yet. My Poser 5 worked right out of the box. I installed the first patch but haven't installed the second yet. I just receieved my brand new system but I'm still configuring it. I was just being silly cause I have a good feeling about the way Larry and Dan have responded to this thread. The violin, music, Steffys etc. is for that Bahama cruise I was talking about for Dan & Larry on a previous post.

The violin, music, Steffys etc. is for that Bahama cruise I was talking about for Dan & Larry on a previous post. and, poor lil me...i may have to go to trinidad, in a week or so....business...but, i would hate to miss any of this stuff. well, maybe i will run into dan and larry, and they can bend my ear.

Larry, Let's not make this too easy, I think we should hold out for the Cruise:) We'll talk Monday. Dan Farr

Dan, Larry, you guys are going to pull this off aren't you? Thanks in advance.

Biy oih boy if they can work something out and CL can cahnge that EULA even I would put up with the bugs. Like mentioned above - it's the EULA that stops me from buying the copies I was planning on.

That's exactly why I keep on with these posts. Its just to important to let it slip away. We are very close here.

I will second that, LSM. There have been several issues sitting by the wayside since pre-release times that, if addressed, will make P5 more attractive to some of those who have held out purchasing P5 up to this point. I would also like to reiterate that it would be advantageous if the CD production code was updated and that future commercially released CD versions of P5 already came with the patched code applied; making it a "one stop installation". I would hope CL would notify the community "Yay or Nay" if this is possible. If "Yay", then a simple notification by CL when these "patched" versions are shipping would be beneficial.

To be fair and honest, these issues have been in existence since pre-release and, to date, have recieved little attention to this point other than "we will look into it". I sincerely hope that CL is getting to the point where they can dedicate more resources to the EULA and other issues, but I too feel that it will take some time to fully iron out and a compromise is reached. I hope the EULA negotiations will not be limited to closed dialog between CL and DAZ, but open to the rest of the community who have an interest in the EULA and the other issues as well. With that said, I want to commend CL and DAZ for taking the first steps toward a resolution that will impact the community at large.

Larry, if CL were approached by users who wanted to use Poser for crime scene work (technically a violation of the EULA as it could be considered to depict an illegal act") would CL be willing to send a notarized waiver to that person to allow them to do so? Same thing with a store like DAZ, 3D Commune or even a small store or various merchants? Because if CL was willing to send me a waiver stating that I had the right to create distributable content and such (very specifically written out - not an over generalized statement that wouyld allow theft mind you) I would be willing to buy my copies of P5. The waiver would also have to include redistributing of these items at 3-D Arena. After all it's only a matter of putting in writing (and notarizing) a confirmation of what CL has been saying online so it shouldn't be an issue.

The EULA is also the biggest reason I keep on these threads. I want to play with P5. I really do. It may not be up to what I hoped for, but it still looks like fun. I don't dare until this EULA issue has a resolvement.

"Because if CL was willing to send me a waiver stating that I had the right to create distributable content and such (very specifically written out - not an over generalized statement that wouyld allow theft mind you) I would be willing to buy my copies of P5. The waiver would also have to include redistributing of these items at 3-D Arena." In conversations with CL I was specifically told that they were willing to work with individual users and vendors to make sure they had the documentation they needed to feel safe in what they were doing (as long as it was legal of course:) ) So I think if you contact CL you will be pleasantly surprised. This is of course EXACTLY the sort of response that was the final compromise I got from my concern over Daz's EULA. That the license itself had to be worded as strongly as it was but that users and vendors with concerns should contact them for clarification and some safety documentation if we felt we needed it for specific situations.

My only "issue" with individual waivers, etc, is that they only apply to those who agreed to them. Plus, if this course it taken, it may actually involve more work on CLs' part which they could be using for developmental and other practical business purposes by having to "renegotiate" the terms on a case-by-case basis. With the involvement of those affected, it should be possible to come up with a suitable compromise that would suit the Poser users at large, while still protecting CL, content providers, vendors, hobbyists, etc. Heck, if CL is agreeable, I would be willing to spend some of my time doing the research and providing any assistance I can to reach a common ground. Granted, IANAL, but at least having a basic outline of the applicable laws, concerns, verbiage, etc, should make the whole process a lot easier for everyone involved.

{That the license itself had to be worded as strongly as it was} IANAL either (I know everyone's tired of hearing that. LOL), but I like to think I'm fairly logical and that statement just doesn't make sense. I realize that the law isn't always logical, but... CL has stated that they needed to beef up the EULA most specifically to protect themselves in foreign courts because the P4 EULA didn't clearly define ownership. Tell me how the P5 EULA does that? As has been pointed out many times by many different people, the P5 EULA directly contradicts itself in a least 3 places regarding content distribution/copyrights. It doesn't clearly define anything. That's what makes a lot of 3rd party content producers nervous and it SHOULD make CL nervous, too. If they ever have to go to court, they run the risk that the court will either throw the EULA out because of the ambiguity or choose to interpret it on the side that doesn't uphold their rights. Fixing it is a much to their benefit as it is to ours. What can and should be negotiated separately, are usage grants to CL's copyrights. That's basically what an agreement to allow cr2 distribution is. They are generally allowing use of their copyrighted material because they figure that people need to have the obj and the program to use cr2s. DAZ does it for Vicki (1, not 2) because they figure you need the original obj to use the cr2. These are exceptions specifically granted to copyrights. CL and DAZ have done it generally in the past on these matters rather than on a case by case basis. But they could grants other permissions to specific individuals if they so choose. None of those agreements changes their EULA or their copyrights. And granting something extra to an individual does not automatically grant it to everyone.

Exactly Diane! Cyberstretch - frankly it doesn't really matter to me if the waiver only applies to those who request it, it's a common business practice. It isn't that time consuming - they would create a form waiver and they could have them notarized en masse for those who actually request them. Frankly, I don't personally care about any of your "issues" on the matter of a waiver, I care about my rights (as should every user of P5 or any software) and despite those who would take CL at face value - I know better (law school does that to a person - even when you don't finish one learns the fundmentals of protection) than to assume that I will be exempt when a company tells me they "don't intend that" because down the road what they "intend" may no longer matter or even apply. I realize it seems cold/rude or whatever to say that I don't care about your "issues" in this matter, but the truth is that should CL decide to enforce their EULA will you pay the legal fees for myself or my company? I have no doubts as to the courts throwing a major portion of the EULA out; it's conflicting and vague - both of which contradict contractual law, but fighting that takes time and money and would need to be done in CL's home state, and in 5 years who's to say that I'll have either - sh*t happens. Furthermore a form "waiver" does fall under "other practical business purposes" after all there are more than a few who are holding off their purchase due to the EULA (DAZ as well). To have a default waiver that they could easily send out where applicable would be a smart business move to encourage sales and ease the minds of those concerned. Furthermore it would go a long way towards healing the negative perceptions created by the EULA and would be a stand in very well while CL works on revising the EULA (if indeed they are actually doing that). I can tolerate buggy software (to a point)- but I can not/will not risk the legal ramifications should CL decide to follow through on the restrictions they enacted with that EULA, or risk that should Poser transfer to a different company that that company wouldn't follow through on what CL started.

ScottA, I've been rather busy with personal matters so just read your reply. >You prefer to see it a certain way. And that's ok with me. >But I prefer to keep analyzing the new data that keeps coming in. Thanks but it is not really that I prefer to see things differently. I readily admit that P5's EULA and copy protection annoy me no end and prevented my purchase of P5. Further, my experience with DAZ has been sufficiently positive that I view them favourably. But neither of these facts colour my opinion of the current situation. That is based solely upon actual statements I have read on the forums. Although I also have read the many opinions I treat those only as opinions, not as data. (eg. 'There are far more people here saying that DAZ was the victim And CL was the villian. Thus the statement: "Just how innocent is DAZ in all of this?".' I agree but treat such statements as opinion, not fact.) Your speculations may be correct. I say only that I have yet to read anything which could lead me to a similar conclusion. In other words... insufficient data. Now it is time for me to catch up on things- starting with the rest of this thread. New data maybe? - Jack

Many companies seem to be able to create a generic EULA that covers all bases at once, thereby eliminating the need to generate individual "form waivers" and supplying them to individual users. There is nothing that states that CL cannot do both, either. There are many possible solutions and a compromise or several of them may suit everyones' best interests. The current EULA definitely needs revisioning, I think everyone can agree to that. So, since time and money will be spent on that endeavor, all I am suggesting is that an "all encompassing" EULA is adopted and any "further clarifications" could still be made by a waiver, statement, notarized letter; whatever legal documentation and/or terms you care to use to describe it. It seems to me that trying to do "one offs" would be more time and resource consuming than a total, legal, legit rewrite of the existing EULA with all parties interests covered. I think our concerns are the same, just our proposed solutions differ. Either or neither of us may be completely right, but at least providing several viable options presents a quicker means to arriving at an applicable solution.

I think we're all basically on the same page too. I hope we hear from the players soon. Its now Moday evening.

::is still waiting and hoping that Larry sends his contact data... sure would be nice to resolve this::

Larry Weinberg- First, I say THANK YOU for Poser in all its versions. And I believe y'all are working hard and sincerely doing the best you know how to balance your interests with other developers' interests, ultimately all of which will give customers' more available stuff at prices people will hopefully want to buy it :-) - - - - - - - - - - But you say: "We'd like to see compatible formats and complementary features in all models and applications produced by both companies -- and everyone else." Then why does your EULA say that your file FORMATS are proprietary? That plus other language says to me as a software writer that I'd better not try writing a software module that works with your file formats and competes with a capability in your program, or you could sue me for violation of the EULA. Especially if someday such a module might work in a competitor's program. File FORMATS should be public domain. Even Microsoft is offering .NET APIs and formats to the community. As it stands, your Poser5 EULA scares the sh*t out of me. NOTE: I'm not a total novice in reading such stuff. I've seen several intensely detailed legal contracts over years employed at both Electronic Arts and Apple Computer, neither of which are exactly known for being legally simple to deal with. Curious Labs isn't in the same league as the big companies I mention. You don't have the clout to get everyone you are going to need on board, as that contract stands. It needs to change dramatically. Please understand, I don't mean to be negative. I am just trying to accurately express the strong negative reaction, as a long-time software writer, that your EULA brought up in me as it is written. Here's hoping that you successfully modify the EULA to match your stated intentions! -- ToolmakerSteve

LarryW - I have one other comment I'd like to publicly express. Hopefully I can do this in a way that won't make you defensive. If I fail, then I apologize, and I should have sent this message privately. Let's see if I can say this gently: Do you get, deep in your bones, that your company has made a mistake? That the discontent and uncertainty and hesitation to buy Poser5 within the community of Poser users has already cost Curious Labs far more than any hypothetical risk to Intellectual Property ever was going to cost? That regardless of the rightness or wrongness of each decision the end result is that EGISYS + Curious Labs released Poser5 with three strikes against it: #1* A shocking number of serious bugs. Though I begged to receive my pre-ordered copy when Airborne Express misplaced mine for seven days, and am working on an add-on project such that I am very glad I received it, within the first hour of receiving the product and trying it out, my overwhelming thought was "what were they thinking?". #2* A stringent and trouble-prone registration system. As a software developer, I thank you: better that you take the arrows in your back than I ;-) I would use such a scheme if I dared. When people talk about warez, and how there is probably already a crack out - irrelevant. The real issue is the basic human instinct that makes it easy to rationalize not paying for something unless you have to. The person who might otherwise make a copy or two for friends, who then might give away copies ... sometimes snowballs to many copies in use per legit copy - that's who this discourages, not the hard-core pirates. To users - by all means bitch and moan about the imperfections in schemes like this, but some scheme or another is going to prevail. Complain until all your issues have been successfully addressed. I'm betting on one of the universal hardware key solutions, like the one that I believe is offered by Poser5's security vendor. Maybe what is needed is a central company to hold keys, that could provide a "back-up source of registration updates" so that there wouldn't be total dependence on the original software vendor. #3* An alarmingly tight EULA. I've decided to live with it, but I am glad others have decided not to be passive about it. I will support Poser5, and take my legal chances, but I must remain free to support any alternatives that come along! - - - - - This is how it looks even to someone who is rooting for you to succeed! These three genuine topics of concern add up to serious risk. I believe y'all are working hard, and genuinely wish to alleviate community concerns. Best of luck! -- ToolmakerSteve P.S. Poser5 SR2beta is looking promising. Tell everyone involved not to give up hope - it's getting there and will have been worth the journey :)

Not trying to be demeaning, but trying to understand a seemingly contradictory statement. "#2* A stringent and trouble-prone registration system." "I would use such a scheme if I dared." As a software developer yourself, and your obvious opinion that some form of protection is needed, why do you state that you have not used such a system if it is overly effective and beneficial? Again, I do not think that anyone desires that CL, or any software developer, stops trying to protect their investments. However, in light of the financial struggles that have been alluded to, and the apparent ease of circumventing such "protection schemes", is it not wise to wait until "some scheme or another is going to prevail"? Personally, I think the competence of the "Software Liberators" is greatly underestimated. Any technological advances that are available to generate some form of protection are also going to be available for those who wish to circumvent it. The fight to protect software has raged on since software was first released. Every attempt thus far has been circumvented in one way or another. I do not foresee any universal solution in sight. I find it hard to believe that any system that is developed will ever sufficiently deter others from finding ways around it. That is not to say that developers should stop trying, there is a market for such protection, just that until a successful scheme is derived any attempt to use those schemes ends up being futile. "The person who might otherwise make a copy or two for friends, who then might give away copies ... sometimes snowballs to many copies in use per legit copy - that's who this discourages, not the hard-core pirates." There is nothing that is stopping people from repackaging the "cracked/hacked" version and distributing it as well. Therefore, the insinuated effectiveness of the protection scheme is a false sense of security, IMHO. If someone was willing to give away "free" copies based off their "legit" copy, they are equally as likely to distribute the cracked/hacked version as well. I really do feel for those whose livelihoods and IP are adversely effected by criminal activities. But, logically, I do not see where any "protection scheme" at this stage of the game is a beneficial addition if, with a little help, they can be easily circumvented.

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