"The bottom line is yet another topic has been blown completely out of proportion due to someones need for attention." We are so glad that you wanted to share this confession with us Gina. You will feel better for it, I am sure.

"The bottom line is yet another topic has been blown completely out of proportion due to someones need for attention." Nono the truth is- this has the appearance of some laws being broken... and this is not the first incident.

Brendan are you honestly telling me this wasnt blown out of proportion long before I arrived. People all screaming and yelling about some injustice that wasn't even done to them, and posssibly not even done. Gimme a break. Kendra, good point. Though I am beginning to think that certain people have their own set of rules for themselves and an entirely different set for everyone else. I think Mosca's whole point was that he wanted to point out that I was a merchant, in hopes that I would stop telling him hes wrong. Unfortunatly he doesnt know me. Cheers, Gina

Cheryle as much as I disagree with you and the way you are doing things in here, I understand your point and really actually admire your need for justice. But do you honestly have any proof that there has been an injustice? The only thing u know for certain is that first it was public voting, then it wasnt. So to assume that they also screwed up the rest of the contest is jumping to conclusions a bit. Cheers, Gina

" So to assume that they also screwed up the rest of the contest is jumping to conclusions a bit." It's not just abut this one- it's just about every one they run here. 4 major contests within approx a year, a year, and all 4 of them have had controversy around them. And those are the ones i remember. There may be more. The first one involved a tie and the members were not allowed to vote on the tie breaker. there was no information posted on what would be done to break the tie until AFTER the admins picked who they wanted,. Any contest usually has a predefined framework for dealing with these situations The 2nd one allegedly involved vote fixing by a member. The third involved an admin winning a contest where software was involved (AFAICR the admin refused the prize)- People who are holding the contest are not elegable to enter them The third Involved some one winning in the photography forum,. and they tried to substitute a lesser Value prize. Then there was AOY last year and this year. This place really has no business running contests. The governmental agencies involved will look into this- if they feel there is a need to continue with an investigation they will. If not- then they won't.

I have read the posts here and I don't understand what you are all carrying on about in regards to the voting (so Cheryle, you do not need to repeat any of your comments because that is not what I am referring to). I mean, I arrived at the front page of Renderosity one day, saw a link that said "vote for the Artist of the Year", clicked that link, saw that I could vote, casted it and that was that. If you did NOT vote then stop bitching. You have no right to bitch if you didn't vote. If you did vote, then still stop bitching and accept the end results. All your bitching just makes you look like petulant (sp??), spoilt children. The contest is over. Deal with it. I have had my say. I am not going to comment regardless of any replies back as I hate repeating myself. Have a great day Bella Morte

ok so it's 5- i count funny.shrug

" The contest is over. Deal with it." And the next contest is launched and there is controvery and so on and so on. There is something that is not being done right that makes this is a repeated pattern. One screw up yah i can accept that- i can even accept 2 (hey the first contest didn't work so well- maybe it's a fluke- let's try it again. The second contest yeilds the same results, well it seems there is a flaw in the system, time to examine it very closely and make some changes.) " mean, I arrived at the front page of Renderosity one day, saw a link that said "vote for the Artist of the Year", clicked that link, saw that I could vote, casted it..." And then the vote was removed and we were told oops... we don't want you to vote. It wouldn't be so bad if it was only a couple hours but 3 days??????

Dear Gina! Blown out of proportion? In many ways the whole issue is about proportion, proportional representation, that is. The basic initial thrust of this particular thread was to do with tying up loose ends about the actual figures involved. 38% of 24 votes is not quite the same as 38% of a possible 100.000+ votes. Why are you defending the rights of a Quango over the rights of the membership? What is your especial interest in our discomfort over the proceedings? Why do you feel moved to join the lemniscate of controversy on this issue and give it new vigour? This thread was content to proceed along it's designated path untill the quislings turned up for a lambaste. If you are here on your own behalf? try not to look to others to qualify your views. It is in plain evidence you have helped bring this pot to the boil again, the question is, have you anything of sustenance to add to it? BTW, I never scream and yell in any thread, just in case you think that I am doing so now?

All you're doing is acting like children. You won't change the results. You won't change the way it was done. You won't change the way the site is run. In the grand scheme of things, you're making a big deal out of nothing. I'm sorry, but this is how I see it: The poll was on the front page. It was up for what? Three days? They pulled it. Oops, mistake. Wasn't supposed to be there. Okay fine. I can deal with that. Some of you couldn't. Then there was an apology. Sorry it wasn't supposed to be there. Okay. I can deal with that. Some of you couldn't. You want to know what the prizes were. They're not telling you. I can deal with that. It's not my business. It's between the winner and the admins. Some of you can't accept that. But you don't seem to realize that all your voices are amounting to a little squeak. 'Squeak'. You're a few people in a large community. And to be honest, I'm sure the admins have far more important things to deal with than your cries of controversy and vote fixing and so on, and so on. It sucks, right? It's this great big terrible thing that they did, and scorned you greatly. Burned your little minds with a great injustice that you must see righted. You're not righting anything by continuing this. In all honesty, why don't a few calm people with concerns use that handy function called email, and correspond with some of the admins? It'll keep this all from escalating into the next world war, and might yield some better results than "WHY WON'T YOU RESPOND TO ME???" Spec

BellaMorte! some people question what is on the plate that has been handed to them, then there are those that just lick-spittle. Try not to respond!

Thank you for sharing specs "All you're doing is acting like children. You won't change the results. You won't change the way it was done. You won't change the way the site is run. In the grand scheme of things, you're making a big deal out of nothing. I'm sorry, but this is how I see it:" Nice to know that membership is so meaningless to you and that any contest involving members is so meaningless to you. If it's so meaningless to you why are you here? some are wroking to get things resolved. I see no such constructiveness in your post. "The poll was on the front page. It was up for what? Three days? They pulled it. Oops, mistake. Wasn't supposed to be there. Okay fine. I can deal with that. Some of you couldn't. "You want to know what the prizes were. They're not telling you. I can deal with that. It's not my business. It's between the winner and the admins. Some of you can't accept that. " Wrong- it's a contest that includes members ( all of them even tho only some are actually picked. Which means that anything awarded is to be made known to all membership Then there was an apology. Sorry it wasn't supposed to be there. Okay. I can deal with that. Some of you couldn't." What point are you trying to make with these statements? "But you don't seem to realize that all your voices are amounting to a little squeak. 'Squeak'. You're a few people in a large community. And to be honest, I'm sure the admins have far more important things to deal with than your cries of controversy and vote fixing and so on, and so on." What is more important than taking care of the membership that helps this site survive prosper and grow? "It sucks, right? It's this great big terrible thing that they did, and scorned you greatly. Burned your little minds with a great injustice that you must see righted. You're not righting anything by continuing this. In all honesty, why don't a few calm people with concerns use that handy function called email, and correspond with some of the admins? It'll keep this all from escalating into the next world war, and might yield some better results than "WHY WON'T YOU RESPOND TO ME???"" nice to see what a high value you place on the members.

oh please. stfu. everyone. seriously. janne deserved artist of the year, he won it, now stop cheapening his victory with these damned conspiracy theories - im getting sick of them. gevidal is a great artist, and so are all of the others who were in the running. they are all winners - theyve each achieved artist of the month, which is an honor itself. they cant all win AOY... but why do i get the feeling that no matter who won, there would be people bitching, and this same thread would have popped up? grow the fuck up, and go congratulate janne for his win, hes a great guy and i pray he doesnt see this thread because it would upset him quite a bit.

Well, y'know, Spec, if it's all none of our business, why bother having the thing in the first place? Why even mention it at all? Why not just send Toxic a PM that says, "Hey, we were having a few beers one afternoon and decided you should be AOY. Congrats!" Sounds like the perfect solution.

Cheryle, Thank you for letting me know about this information. I didn't know they had pulled the public votes. I am not at Renderosity all day every day and all pages. My comment was based on the comments above mine.

Seriously! BlackHearted, janne is Administrations Artist of the year. If you include me in your command to "grow the fuck up"? ( which sounds like a raised voice to me) then you negate any attempt at reason in your comment ( that's if you meant to be reasonable?). Cheers to you!

I didn't say it wasn't at one point everyone's business. Believe it or not, I was a little miffed when they pulled the vote as well. I am saying that everyone who is -still- upset is making it everyone elses business continuously. In thread after thread after thread. Honestly, do you think you're making it right by beating said dead horse? It might make you feel a bit better about it afterwards, but come on. Have you changed the voting results? Has this continued, repetative thread changed anything? I think the only thing it's changed is the supposed unity of the community, which is a damn shame. Regardless what you may think of me or my comments, I'm a member here too. And I have to support what Regina and Blackhearted said. In a lot of words, or just a few. Get over it. It's over and done with.

spectre. No

"I think the only thing it's changed is the supposed unity of the community" If the Community is a supposed unity thing in your mind SpectreOfDesire, then it supposedly ain't unified, is it? Maybe it's a SpectreOfCommunity?

i, for one, am glad that they pulled the public votes. weve all seen firsthand what a determined person can do to swing the public vote. one of the AOMs of 2002 did it, by spamming his newsgroup and having those people create rosity accounts for the sole purpose of voting him AOM. then he did it for his friend. then he laughed about it, and said self-promotion was a valid tactic. now im not happy that the members cannot vote for things such as this, in a utopian renderosity, all the contests, hot20s AOM/AOY and awards would work wonderfully, where everyone in the community would take the time to pick whom they thought was the best candidate and EVERY SINGLE MEMBER would place their vote. but thats not going to happen. not in my lifetime, and not in yours. with the old system, the most determined person would win, since they would spam for the most people to vote for them and work the hardest on their little publicity campaign. i, for one, am glad that there is no more opportunity for that - for people to manipulate the AOM and AOY like that, and you should be glad too - god knows what could have happened if things HADNT of changed. so no, its not the utopian renderosity. but its far better than the alternative, so i support it fully until someone proposes a better idea. i already did - script it so that when everyone logs in during something like AOM or AOY voting, they get a dialog at the top of their screen, like an IM, that has the AOM or AOY poll, and kindof 'force' them to vote that way. then all of the 100k or so rosity members would vote, and it would be impossible to sway such a large number of voters. its not that hard to do, and i think it would be the fairest solution. cheers, -gabriel

I defer to your knowledge of things scriptable, Blackhearted. I had engaged in the thread that tried t give serious thought to the problem, only to see the thread completely ignored by the administration until after the event, when they had foisted their agenda on the community. There are many voices in this thread that were not able to find the time to contribute to the problem solving thread but have saved their energies for weightier matters like shooting out their lips here. Thankfully, we can choose when and in which forums we can speak our minds.

I realize this might be steering away from the original point of this thread.. whatever that point might be, because I certainly can't see it, personally. But I have a question. Take it at face value. First off, let me lay this on the line: I have not flamed anyone. Nor have I singled anyone out. I have not been sitting here, bitching and moaning about how things should have been, and what happened. I'm stating my opinion in this public forum, just like everyone is entitled to. It's my digital voice, as it is all of yours. And I deserve that much. To have my opinions as I see fit to post them. In a way that hopefully offends no one. Because my original intent is not to offend anyone. If, however, I do, then I apologize. That is my responsibility and my right to do so, because this is a community that I'm a member of, even if I'm not so outspoken or well known. However, I ask this two-part question. Is it because I'm going against the grain that as of yet, the responses I've gotten have been trite or sarcastic - That because I don't agree with the majority that's posting to this thread that I must be singled out in some small form or fashion and be treated with less respect than I've given? Or is it because I -am- fairly unknown. I rarely speak up. I do an image every so often because I enjoy putting up the works my wife and I do. If I were one of the more renowned artists of this site, would anything I say be responded to with as much sarcasm, and given as big a lack of respect? It's a shame, because I think if my name were bigger here, and I posted the same things, I wouldn't be treated with the same lack of respect. Respect that I have only tried to give the rest. So keep on with your bitching and moaning about the injustice. And keep on making your trite and sarcastic remarks. They don't bite any deeper than anything else that's said. I've heard far, far worse. And I hope they make you feel better. I honestly do. Have a lovely evening. :) Spec

"I realize this might be steering away from the original point of this thread.. whatever that point might be, because I certainly can't see it, personally." Can't argue with that! 62. Re: Dear tammymc 2 by SpectreOfDesire on 1/6/03 16:44 "All you're doing is acting like children. You won't change the results. You won't change the way it was done. You won't change the way the site is run. In the grand scheme of things, you're making a big deal out of nothing. I'm sorry, but this is how I see it: The poll was on the front page. It was up for what? Three days? They pulled it. Oops, mistake. Wasn't supposed to be there. Okay fine. I can deal with that. Some of you couldn't. Then there was an apology. Sorry it wasn't supposed to be there. Okay. I can deal with that. Some of you couldn't. You want to know what the prizes were. They're not telling you. I can deal with that. It's not my business. It's between the winner and the admins. Some of you can't accept that. But you don't seem to realize that all your voices are amounting to a little squeak. 'Squeak'. You're a few people in a large community. And to be honest, I'm sure the admins have far more important things to deal with than your cries of controversy and vote fixing and so on, and so on. It sucks, right? It's this great big terrible thing that they did, and scorned you greatly. Burned your little minds with a great injustice that you must see righted. You're not righting anything by continuing this. In all honesty, why don't a few calm people with concerns use that handy function called email, and correspond with some of the admins? It'll keep this all from escalating into the next world war, and might yield some better results than "WHY WON'T YOU RESPOND TO ME???" Spec " If your original intent was not to offend anyone? you have a singular way of showing it. Squeak! squeak! Squeak! squeak!

"However, I ask this two-part question. Is it because I'm going against the grain that as of yet, the responses I've gotten have been trite or sarcastic - That because I don't agree with the majority that's posting to this thread that I must be singled out in some small form or fashion and be treated with less respect than I've given? Or is it because I -am- fairly unknown." Neither. I am not a "known" entity around here either. Post 62 of yours pretty much sums up why you are getting the reaction you are.

oops cross posted with you Brendan

Did you squeak Cheryle? Show some respect!

No. Post 62 shows my opinion on the whole where I'm not singling anyone out. ;) I think you're reading more into what's actually there. Nor did I say my voice was any bigger. Squeak squeak. And I still won't single anyone out. That's the big difference. :) Have a lovely evening. Spec

That's so fine a distinction one can't see the join! at least, that's my opinion, on the whole. With all due respect.

don't make me squeak some more! i have nothing but sqeak time avail until the hockey game is over...

This thread had pretty much burnt out, like, a day and a half ago. Then suddenly the goon squad arrives with its gas can. Never ceases to amaze me. If you really want the AOY thing to die down, the absolute wrong thing to do is to jump in and start telling people what to do.

"one of the AOMs of 2002 did it, by spamming his newsgroup and having those people create rosity accounts for the sole purpose of voting him AOM. then he did it for his friend. then he laughed about it, and said self-promotion was a valid tactic." I understand the feeling that such tactics aren't in the spirit of things, but there certainly isn't/wasn't any rule against what Legume did, which was essentially to ask his friends to vote for him. And if, as everyone here keeps insisting, R'osity is about business first and art second, how can you say self-promotion is wrong? Isn't that what business people do?

Spectre et al: it's simple. It's called accountability. Rsity started it one way, apparently didn't like the way it was going, and changed the rules on everyone, with apparently no accountability to anyone. Now, I don't know about you, but I'm getting really tired of people just trotting out the lame "well, sorry" excuse and hoping I accept it at face value. I don't accept it from anyone anymore, period. The admins screwed up, and you seem to prefer letting them get away with it, when this is the now-fourth-possibly-fifth time in a row. All of a sudden, information has to be dragged out of them kicking and screaming, when instead this thing should be made as transparent as possible. You say your newbie status doesn't give you the same respect as anyone else? Bull. It's a lot of us getting sick and tired of people anywhere -- not just Rsity's admin, but everywhere -- screwing up and walking away from the mess they've made. Yeah, Tammy profered up an apology. Big whoop. That's a starting point and nothing more. For all the questions that remained, she and the rest of the admins should have been doing a helluva lot more than just shutting down all communication about this fiasco. And sorry but "it's a free site and it's their site and they can do what they like" is likewise a bunch of BS. The moment that poll appeared on the front page -- error or not -- Rsity came under the same rules and laws as everyone else in this country, and those rules should be followed to the letter, not when it's convenient to them to do so. Maybe it doesn't seem like a big deal to you or a few others, but I'm getting real tired of people skipping out on responsibility. Now, if you'd like to address that particular point, feel free. But you better it damn persuasive.

In response to your post, atthisstage: And I don't care to be persuasive. I'm not trying to sway an audience. But don't you think that they covered all their bases? Just say for a moment that Rosity -has- been contacted by law abiding officials. Being that Renderosity is a privately owned company, all of that would be handled privately. And then, even when it was over, they don't owe anyone anything regarding what happened. It's between them and those that contacted them. If they have their facts straight, which they may or may not have, because I don't know, then who's to say that it hasn't already been handled, and they just haven't chosen to respond to any of this. It's perfectly plausible to me. Regardless, I'm not defending Renderosity. I'm defending my personal opinion on the matter as it stands. And judging by the lack of response from admins to the continued threads, it's a very possible end to it. Sure, it sucks that no one will know. But no matter how many times anyone says it is our concern, it's not. Not unless the site gets shut down. And I'm not doubting you, but I'd like for these laws and rules to be pointed out from an actual source. One that might be available to me so I can give them a glance. It'd be much appreciated.

they are posted in the threads below

You know.. All the artists (Legume included) did fantastic art and are fantastic artists in of themselves. They represent all of us. You want to show your appreciation of them. Comment on their art. buy a print if they have one available. The AOM, AOY, AOD or whatever doesn't matter. Rosity is a little fish in the art world. their contest doesn't bring any glory or look really good on your portfolio.. "Whatsosity?" Toxicangel does great art, Legume does as well. Rosity can't change that no matter who they choose as AOM or AOY.

Stormagerage best comment so far. Would you like a cup of tea? :)

"Kendra, good point. Though I am beginning to think that certain people have their own set of rules for themselves and an entirely different set for everyone else."

You noticed that too? :)

"I think Mosca's whole point was that he wanted to point out that I was a merchant, in hopes that I would stop telling him hes wrong. Unfortunatly he doesnt know me."

As a new merchant, I once told someone I won't do the clone thing just to voice my opinion to keep my "merchant" account squeaky clean. No merchant should be told to shut up because they might lose sales. Especially from a member. That's akin to blackmail.

blackmail EEK!

Spectre - Posts 114 and 107 of "where is AOY poll thread and Post 206 of Dear tammy

"The AOM, AOY, AOD or whatever doesn't matter. Rosity is a little fish in the art world. their contest doesn't bring any glory or look really good on your portfolio.." Well that's part of it but not all of it- in the past they have offered a week hotel stay at siggraph, free entrance into siggraph and promoted the AOY. They also are now branching into a magazine who's distribution area is growing. They are trying to become bigger, more professional. Which is why they need to address these issues. For their own sake as well as for the sake of the members.

ask yourself these questions.. If your crew hadn't created so many freaking fake accounts to rig the hot 20, affect the nominating of the AOMs and VOTE for the AOMs, would the thought of discrimination have ever entered your mind when the poll was pulled? What's more if you hadn't been so brilliant(or should I say, "Sub-genius") as to pull the same stunt twice in a row, would the thought of discrimination have ever entered your mind when the poll was pulled? If you guys hadn't been bitching and stiring up conspiracy theories every other day in the C&D forum and eventually gotten it removed from the site alltogether, would the thought of discrimination have ever entered your mind when the poll was pulled? In short, if it hadn't been for all the bullsh*t, would you ever have had cause to believe you were being discrminated against? Regardless of how he was selected, the person who has the title of AOY has it because he deserves it. It's as simple as that...questioning the voting, and continuing to bitch about discrimination charges at this stage only cheapens that for him which is very selfish and inconsiderate on your part. Do you realize this is the second time this sort of thing has happened to him? This same sort of crap happened when the admins selected his design for the renderosity site design a long time ago...I think it's really sad that even now you can't show a shread of decency... Sorcha

I would like to say that what happen with the poll was wrong. I would also like to say that in the heat of anger and frustration that we have to remember that there are real people here that we deal with every day. Sometimes we tend to forget that these people are real and have real feelings. Some words can have long lasting effects without us even knowing it. The net seems to put us in another world and makes the people seem a little less real. Please remember the artists that we are all talking about are the ones that are hurting from this. Both the winner and the losers. I am asking that you please think of them and remember they didnt ask for this. It was the people that voted for them.

Lynde- who is your post directed to? I am part of no crew I belong to no class of sub-genius I have protested previous inequities of contests past

WEll to all who have stated this is "overblown, childish, etc. I have this to say. I DID vote, I voted for AOM most times, I had boycotted the vote for a while because I was upset over the way nominations were to be made by committee instead of the membership,However I did go back to voting later on. I hear now that the "committee" system was privately scraped and the nominations are made by a different system .Ive never got a good answer on why the change was made or what the new system is. The point is I DID take the time to look through the galleries and place a vote. Then that vote was taken away in the MIDDLE of a contest.I think I have every right to be pissed at that. You all are right about one thing though, all of this wont change a thing. Admin has made a decision and we all know very well that our opinions arent listened to by them. Membership is good for one thing in their eyes and thats cash. Period. I do not understand why there is an AOM poll on the front page. Our vote isnt wanted right? I certainly wont be voting from now on, my vote or any members vote for that matter isnt wanted or appreciated.

"If your crew hadn't created so many freaking fake accounts to rig the hot 20, affect the nominating of the AOMs and ...." blah blah blah... What some people dont seem to realize, is that Legume has many fans that are NOT members of his newsgroups and voted him AOM AOY pink ponies and what-have-you. Is that so hard to believe? Who do you think is bitching in all these threads anyway? Renderosity members thats who.

Lynde- who is your post directed to? The Sub-geniuses and all who did what I spoke of above..if you know these conditions do not apply to you then take comfort in the fact that the statement wasn't directed at you..:) Is that so hard to believe? Nope..:) I even liked his stuff until one point...my comments are for those that have participated in those activities alone...:) Sorcha

Gina... Admin? Hell, I did more than that, I ran Renderosity. So I guess I am qualified to offer an opinion then huh? I am so glad that it is in such wonderful hands now. :o) Jack

"As a new merchant, I once told someone I won't do the clone thing just to voice my opinion to keep my "merchant" account squeaky clean. No merchant should be told to shut up because they might lose sales. Especially from a member. That's akin to blackmail."-Kendra I whole heartedly agree with you. Which is why I dont care. I was not flaming anyone or being "shrill" as Mosca put it. I was being honest. Ravnheart is also 100% right. There are real people behind these screen names...I guess everyone loses sight of that. So they just go on bashing like the people they are going on about have no feelings and are above being hurt. Personally, I have noticed a lovely trend of certain people who like to make everything their business. I call them the "Everything Police". Problem with the "Everything Police" is that they have let the fictional power go to their head and will not be told that maybe just maybe something isn't really concerning them, or that it is none of their business. As to why people KEEP responding...myself included. Think of it as a car accident or a train wreck..it's morbid curiousty. Everyone wants to see the next big catastrophe. Cheers Gina

Jack Im sorry, I missed you in my last post. I don't know you, I wasnt here when you ran it and geez sorry I missed that. No modesty on your part is there. As for your previous "knob" comments...maybe your upset that yours wasnt the knob being polished. I mean seriously, is everyone under the impression that ANYONE that wins a contest here is "on the take". Thats just silly talk. Gina

"just maybe something isn't really concerning them, or that it is none of their business. " A vote is put up to vote for a member by other members is the business of the members. It's also the members business to know what said results and decisions affecting those members are.