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(Last Updated: 2024 Aug 27 11:07 am)
Subject: The Nasty Tech at CuriousLabs
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Um... so nice to see everyone playing so nicely with each other (yes, I do stop here from time to time... you're not completely free of me... :oP ) First off, I think A3D (apologize for the shorthand) raises a question to the practice of Customer Service... though, I think this situation would've been better brought to the attention of Curious Labs rather than openly targeted on any forum... Though there is nothing wrong with stating that there is an issue, which Curious Labs SHOULD look into, it should be directed in a form or fashion where Curious Labs can reply to it and/or take action because of it... I don't see that happening here... ...instead, what I DO see, is people "bashing" each other over this and inciting a "name calling" match... like kids on a playground... so, my suggestion at bringing this thread to Curious Lab's attention to answer or reply to it is OUT OF THE QUESTION...!! So this is my solution, if anyone cares to hear it. A3D, I think that you should contact the Customer Service Dept at Curious Labs and inform them of the response that you were given, be open to let the company take ANY action that they feel may be necessary to your situation... I will also, contact Curious Labs and make a mention of this for you, and I think they will be more than receptive to take care of your trouble in this matter... In the meantime, I would think it best, if some of the others here (not going to point fingers here) just focus their energies somewhere other than "bashing" people and find a calm center of peace for themselves... Just my thoughts.. Jack
Jack D. Kammerer, the Poser community opportunist, rides in. I'll bet you money that Curious Labs already know about this thread. It had actually usefully died of its own accord, and you could have easily taken any action you feel your self appointed position in the Poser community entitles you to take, without adding any comment here at all. A bit of recruiting, perhaps? Maybe Artist3D will be so impressed he heads off to 3D Commune. A good result all round, I'd say. I don't have any special route to Steve Cooper beyond being a paying Poser user, but I do know from direct experience on the Poser mailing list that he has in the past taken a similar abrupt line to people pursuing matters not in the remit of Poser. The 'we do not act as a multimedia consultancy firm' line could have come from his own keyboard. I hope he remembers that when deciding what action to take. In fact, I shall write to him myself to remind him. As one of 'the others here', I have no regrets at my 'bashing', and you can point your fingers at me all you like. Maybe you'd care to check back a few threads and see what fine 'playground' contributions you making around here, before you assume the role of the soothing saint. I am usually willing to patiently go to great pains to help people who aren't especially bright understand things, but when someone's chicken shit, pig ignorant pride potentially puts a guy's job at risk for no good reason at all, then I'll spew forth any venom I see fit (especially after the thread is moved into this crazy forum). Hey, if you don't like it, you could always set up your own forum where your suggestions and 'solutions' might carry more significance than that of any other Jack about town.
PJF Thank you very much for sharing your usual insightful opinion and tiring diatribe, if there is anything good that can be said about you, it would be your ability to remain consistant in your posts and your belief that your opinions actually matter to anyone but yourself. :o) So, please, excuse me if I don't take your opinion to seriously... or take offense to the fact that I don't find it, nor you, very useful in this regard. :o) Jack
At least my opinion is only my own, and only carries the weight of one single Poser user - as it should be. Because of your self appointed position in the Poser community, some folk are unfortunately liable to give your views far more attention than they merit. At least I actually use Poser, unlike some I could mention.
Pssst...Scarab...something my sainted Grandmother taught me... (looks around to make sure nobody else is listening) Don't even put a hook on the line. That way you can spend the entire day goofing off, drinking beer and looking like you're actually doing something productive without the hassle of dealing with the results of productivity. Kate (who had a real smart gramma)
Hot dang! People are liking me all over and I ain't even trying! Hey, it's my birthday soon, don't forget now Jack. Tell you what, for my present you can generate some of your own wit instead of using tired clich like this "compress the most words into the smallest idea" bullshit I've heard on afternoon TV soap operas. That'll definitely be a nice surprise. But you know Jack; I'm worried about you. We both know you're a master at milking situations for your own advantage while fooling people into thinking you're the helpful hero, but now it seems like you've taken to milking situations for your own advantage while fooling yourself into think you're the helpful hero. Dash it; with these delusions you're suffering, I guess it could mean you don't like me after all. Awe, no pressie from Jack this year.
Not all gifts have to be material, Jack. Though considering the way you operate, it's not surprising you think that way. I've seen what happened to some folk who gave you their real world contact details, so I'll pass on giving you my address. Besides which, you'd be bound to eventually try and sell it. 'Read my lips - no selling of the membership database' 'Get your membership database here! Three for a tenner.' Who needs soap operas when there's the drama of what you've done to the Poser community to watch?
As always you've asserted your opinion to that situation based on incorrect information... however, this is not surprising, considering your closeminded behaviour and lack of desire to change your opinion about anything, since you like to think that you are always right and you do this even with smaller situations. So then, please understand, I am not even going to make an attempt to set your incorrect, or misaligned views, right. I say this on the basis that I don't wish to waste my time with someone, when I could be using that time for others who actually have something something constructive to give to the Community at large, rather than a little angry man who only spits venom to compensate for the depressing world in which he lives in. With that said, I don't think there is anymore need to be focusing on this thread, since I did what I came here to do, which was try and help 3dA... that done, this thread no longer needs to become... well, any longer. Jack
Ooh, hush now everybody, Jack's finished contributing so the thread needn't be added to. Asserting my opinion based on incorrect information, eh? Well, that information was supplied by Jack D. Kammerer, so any queries about its voracity should be pointed in that direction. In his message (posted elsewhere) to explain his departure from administrative duties on these forums, Jack said that although he had originally claimed he wouldn't ever sell the database, he subsequently thought that selling it to Zygote and Curious Labs was in the best interests of the community. How very magnanimous, to go back on his word for the 'greater good'. Not so magnanimous was bringing the sale to a grinding halt once he realised he wasn't going to get a big enough slice of the financial pie. So much for the greater good. Yeah, very opportune time to depart Jack, just when it got to the nitty gritty. Of course, you're only going so that you can generously bestow your time upon others for the greater benefit of... Jack D. Kammerer, the Poser community opportunist, rides out.
{so any queries about its voracity should be pointed in that direction.} Nope. Queries about it's VERACITY should be directed to Jack. Its chef should get all queries about it's VORACITY... { Jack said that although he had originally claimed he wouldn't ever sell the database, he subsequently thought that selling it to Zygote and Curious Labs was in the best interests of the community. } The way I read it, Jack found out that the database WAS being sold, and demanded either they don't do that OR give him a cut for it. If I understand what happened EdgeNet balked at first, then raised the price, probably to give him his cut; Zygote/CL saw the new price and essentially said "F that..." I COULD be wrong, but that's how it looked to me. {Jack D. Kammerer, the Poser community opportunist, rides out. } Excuse me, but how many in this communite are NOT opportunists? It's being opportunistic to haunt the forums looking or waiting for props, textures, etc. that you need or want to surface. It's opportunistic to post on topics you view are relevant. It's opportunistic to create, maintain and administer a website that could possibly bring in a cash-flow. EdgeNet is opportunistic. Dark Souls, Inc. is opportunistic. 90+% of the people who post here are opportunistic. Let he who is without sin cast the first verbal stone.
My impression is that Jack and Ed and numerous others did a hell of a lot of work, for which they to date have received very little (if any) compensation. Perhaps I could be wrong and they have been rolling in the lap of luxury for the last year or so, but I don't think so. I dont know (and neither does anyone else but them and Tim Choate) what ultimately went down, but their (Jeff and Ed's) actions and works over the last year speak well of them. I have little patience with those who attach a permanent sneer to their face and think that ongoing cynicism makes them "cool". Scarab <-tried to sneer once....it hurt.....
The thing I don't understand is why so many people seem to think there HAS to be a Villain and a Hero in this - and people seem split as to which part the two parties played. They (DSI, EdgeNet) are business run by gamblers and businessmen (quite often the same thing) who, through ambition and POSSIBLY (probably?) greed had a falling out. Nothing more, nothing less. The fact that we were all taken for a ride (possibly in more ways than one... :-D) is incidental...
Its chef should get all queries about it's VORACITY... <<<<<<<<<< LOL. The 'e's and 'o's in alphabet soup always get stuck in my teeth. Thank you very much for correcting my error. Forgive me if I don't take the time to go through your posts with a fine, er, toothpick. ;-) I think you are wrong about how it went down, CharlieBrown. I can only suggest you read the DSI crew's various statements carefully. I've seen nothing to suggest that DSI were reluctant parties. In fact, I got the impression they were extremely bloody keen parties. Peregrinator pretty much sums up above why I feel the way I do about DSI, and that feeling is why I have 'attached a permanent sneer to my face' over the issue. My ongoing cynicism about DSI is nothing to do with attempting to be 'cool', it's just accurate comprehension. But it's not just the pretend virtue, double standards and hypocrisy of DSI's actions in this that irritates me, it's their commercial mindset being applied to inappropriate things. Don't get me wrong, I am seriously in favour of commercial enterprise; people making money out of their creative efforts is top notch activity in my book. It's a different thing to take over and run an already established mutual self help community on that basis, though (of course, EdgeNet are as guilty as DSI in this respect, and I have never shyed away from saying so. The main difference with EdgeNet is they don't pretend to be doing anything different). I have worked hard and devoted a lot of time and energy in moderating and administrating on a forum setup, and I did it to put something back into the community from which I benefitted. The idea of doing it for money simply didn't enter into it. I don't think Jack's and Ed's actions speak well of them at all. They were looking for a community to make money out of, and they did what they could to do so. It was their choice to operate commercially, and I have no more reason to be grateful to them than I have to the manufacturer of this monitor I'm looking at. There are so many people who do so much for the Poser community just because there is a community and they are a part of it, that I find it outrageous that people like Jack and Ed gain the status of virtual saints. Anything positive that might say about people's tendency toward personal loyalty is more than offset by the negatives about people's tendency toward gullibility. Anyway, I don't particularly want to go through all this again, so if anyone is remotely interested in what I have had to say on this (...crickets, ...tumbleweeds, etc) , take a look at TRenderforums on 'egroups'. Now that DSI have started their own online community, from as scratch as they can under the circumstances, I genuinely wish them luck in their commercial endeavour. There are a few reasons I bothered having a go at Jack when he came on this thread. I thought he was being a pompous, snotty git. I thought he was just further damaging an already fractured situation. I thought he was doing so for opportunistic reasons. He could have just dropped a line to Curious Labs on Artist3D's bahalf, he could have just left the suggestion that Artist3D contact Curious Labs. But no, he had to play the high and mighty hero and try and score some points. Since this thread made me very angry from the start (the only one here to do so) my reaction was pretty inevitable. And this is Complaint and Debate, the looney forum, so if anyone doesn't appreciate my taking a pot shot, then it's tough bloody titty on you. I think the forum would best be deleted, but while it's here, I'll be getting stuck in with everyone else.
{I think you are wrong about how it went down, CharlieBrown. I can only suggest you read the DSI crew's various statements carefully. I've seen nothing to suggest that DSI were reluctant parties. In fact, I got the impression they were extremely bloody keen parties.} I never said they were reluctant, per se. Just that they felt THEY owned the database and that either it should remain their (exclusive) property OR they should get a cut from the sales. Maybe it didn't come out that way, but that's what I've believed since the second time I read Jack's letter. {Forgive me if I don't take the time to go through your posts with a fine, er, toothpick. ;-)} Feel free. I'm as blunder-prone as anyone, and it's sometimes amusing to be corrected... Sometimes... ;-) {It's a different thing to take over and run an already established mutual self help community on that basis, though (of course, EdgeNet are as guilty as DSI in this respect, and I have never shyed away from saying so. The main difference with EdgeNet is they don't pretend to be doing anything different).} I was under the impression that Jack and Ed were operating this for the community, in the hopes of getting some money back out of it EVENTUALLY. It was always in their minds, but never at the forefront until the DSI/Edgenet/Curious Labs/Zygote deal began, then it took over... And I suspect a similar commercial mindset takeover is what fractured the site a year ago, BTW. In fact, I think slipping INTO that mindset so frightened Willow that she does everything she can (often going too far, IMO!) to keep commercial elements off of "her" site to this day... {There are so many people who do so much for the Poser community just because there is a community and they are a part of it, that I find it outrageous that people like Jack and Ed gain the status of virtual saints.} You won't get any argument out of me there - Heck, even Jack and Ed admit that they are far from saints! {There are a few reasons I bothered having a go at Jack when he came on this thread. I thought he was being a pompous, snotty git. } I can see how you get that impression; I don't think it was intended, but I can see it. {And this is Complaint and Debate, the looney forum, so if anyone doesn't appreciate my taking a pot shot, then it's tough bloody titty on you. I think the forum would best be deleted, but while it's here, I'll be getting stuck in with everyone else. } That's the spirit!!
I was under the impression that Jack and Ed were operating this for the community, in the hopes of getting some money back out of it EVENTUALLY. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< I've followed the thing fairly carefully from the beginning, and know that Jack and Ed formed the idea for a profit making online place before they took on the Renderosity (what was the original PFO) administration. DSI was formed before Renderosity, I believe. By taking over what was already here, they were saved the hard work of starting from scratch. What was already here was set up as a mutual self help group, not a business. (It was also a bit of a personality empire, I remember getting 'the Willow treatment' one time back then - see, everybody hates me ;-). I've no doubt about the EVENTUALLY sentiment as regards DSI, and I've no doubt about the hard work and commitment they put in. But it was hard work and commitment in the form of the early years of most businesses. In the final analysis they were doing it for themselves, not for the community. You know it's funny, but Renderosity has ended up kind of being the only 'independant' Poser online place. Everybody here who knows anything knows that EdgeNet is in it for profit, and will 'sell them' for the right price. The community here is sort operating for itself below that level. I don't think there is any kind of ridiculous personality following as at the other places. In my opinion, now is exactly the right time for Zygote/Curious Labs to buy the place. Unfortunately, it looks like they might have swallowed the sainthood bullshit too, so the best chance for the Poser community to be housed in the correct place (especially if it were Curious Labs) is lost. That pisses me off too.
{I don't think there is any kind of ridiculous personality following as at the other places.} That's an interesting point - we haven't really SEEN any EdgeNet personality... :-) {In my opinion, now is exactly the right time for Zygote/Curious Labs to buy the place.} Interesting. Probably a thought worth pursuing... {Unfortunately, it looks like they might have swallowed the sainthood bullshit too,} I doubt that - the community has shown itself to be a powderkeg. I suspect they're just waiting around to see if it blows up again. If it doesn't they'll probably start talking to all three major sites and do what they feel is best from a CORPORATE point of view. Hopefully that will be good for the community as well...
"That's an interesting point - we haven't really SEEN any EdgeNet personality... :-)" Hey! I resent that CB! :-) There is something very different in the way EdgeNet is trying to run this community compared to how it was run in the past. We didn't come swooping in and try to "lead" the community in any specific direction. So that's why you may not have seen any "personality". We're trying to let the members guide the direction of this community. That's why we want feedback, comments, complaints, whatever. Good or bad. If it's good, we'll do more of it. If it's bad, we'll change it. We don't claim to know what best for you and shackle you into doing it our way, or kicking your butt to the curb.
{There is something very different in the way EdgeNet is trying to run this community compared to how it was run in the past. We didn't come swooping in and try to "lead" the community in any specific direction. So that's why you may not have seen any "personality".} That's kind of what I meant, but I have a reputation for obnoxiousness to uphold and didn't want to gush... ;-)
The word you all are searching for in terms of "personality" and "methodology" is NORMAL. It will take some getting used to. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I doubt that - the community has shown itself to be a powderkeg. I suspect they're just waiting around to see if it blows up again. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< And try to keep a keen eye for those who come bearing matches.
rcook wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is something very different in the way EdgeNet is trying to run this community compared to how it was run in the past. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< To be accurate Russell, since the days of taking over from the PFO crew, EdgeNet has always run this site, even if indirectly. I've no doubt a lot was left to DSI, but no way do I beleive major policy was enacted without EdgeNet's go ahead. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If it's good, we'll do more of it. If it's bad, we'll change it. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Up to a point. Commercial aspects like the store and advertising aren't going to disappear just because the membership object. (note: I'm not saying the membership necessarily do object to these things). It is good to see a responsive management, as well as the tweaking that has been undertaken to oil the wheels. It is interesting and eye-opening that the day to day membership activities are functioning perfectly well without people allegedly going without food and sleep. Is there anyone working themselves 'into an early grave' now? What was that all about?
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Storm wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd rather be an arse and fuckwit anyday then to be like you PJF! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< You're not like me, so congratulations upon fulfilling your desire. Ironbear wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other, in order to ask myself that, I'd first have to be impressed with you... <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Good grief, if you have to be impressed with me before the fucking obvious occurs to you, you need to change the basis upon which you are examining the world.