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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Sep 18 7:39 am)
Subject: I think maybe it's time I left the party
ROFLMAO!
Hey is that about to hatch?
*See, now I could have agreed with most of that post til you added this last remark. Passive aggressive prodding much? It's just these little asides that lower the value of your posts to me. You could say what you have to without using all these little snide addendums.
Maybe someone will post some psycho babble bullshit to describe why someone does this.
Quote - ROFLMAO!
Hey is that about to hatch?
*See, now I could have agreed with most of that post til you added this last remark. Passive aggressive prodding much? It's just these little asides that lower the value of your posts to me. You could say what you have to without using all these little snide addendums.
Maybe someone will post some psycho babble bullshit to describe why someone does this.
No need -- in order 'describe why', it would first be necessary to accept the empty premise upon which any such description would have to be based. There's no there there.
See my response above.
Quote - > Quote - Anytime sean is part of a thread here comes penny with his usual and shall we all chime in. I think sean hit it right on the head. Inuendo and beatin around the bush its still the same thing, if you're going to attack someone at least stand up and do it.
Well, I don't know Sean or penny, all I can go by is what was posted, and honestly I just don't see what was posted warranting that kind of response.
If penny (or whoever's) intent was to berate Sean for his/her sexual orientation then obviously penny (or whoever)'s comments simply don't warrant any sort of response. There are always people out there who are going ot hate you because your the wrong color, or he wrong religion, or the wrong whatever.
You can spend your life getting extrodinarily upset by this and hate them back - which of course means they've won. Or you can just shake your head and move on. Life is just way too short to get all bent out of shape over some ignorant, hateful person posting ignorant, hateful remarks in a message base.
There is nothing righteous, noble, or even smart about responding to that sort of stupidity with vitrol. It is a collosal waste of time because you won't enlighten anyone who is that ignorant by doing so, and you certainly don't make yourself or whatever group you belong to that was "attacked" look that good either.
So, if penny (or Tom, or whoever this person is) really did mean that comment as an insult about Sean's sexual orientation, then they have my pity, however giving the comment as written I think yo have to read an awful lot into it to get to that point.
Regardless though Sean certainly didn't do himself/herself (please note, not a dig on orientation, but I don't know Sean and the name itself could be either gender) any favors by responding in such a fashion.
You have to know the history and you can bet it was intended as an insult, comming from penny combined with all his prior crap, ya it was intended exactly as sean took it. When it gets to the point a particular person cannot be part of a thread without penny coming along for his usual snipes then someone needs to say something. And I don't really care right now how I sound.
Quote - ROFLMAO!
Hey is that about to hatch?
*See, now I could have agreed with most of that post til you added this last remark. Passive aggressive prodding much? It's just these little asides that lower the value of your posts to me. You could say what you have to without using all these little snide addendums.
Maybe someone will post some psycho babble bullshit to describe why someone does this.
If you're taling about my Depends, nah, it's not loaded yet, if you're talking bout my two eggs, they might be. 
I don't have any psycho babble to describe it. Just this observation. Missouri is looking at passing laws against cyber harrassment after a certain local case where a teen was harrassed so severly online by an adult that she commited suicide. People need to start waking up and realising they can't just be hateful because it's "Their Style" or whatever other excuse they may have.
Cyber harassment is causing real pain for some people. Whether these sensitive individuals should be in online forums is another matter entirely, but people need to know there's a growing awareness of the cyber world and legal eyes are looking.
Sorry, I can't even remember what charracter she is, one of my quick dial turns and V3 used to show my freebie dynamic jerseydress.
I do have this one, was going to write a Hex tutorial on how to model and rig this but droped suporting Hex and became a Modo Man. LOL
Ooops, another female outfit. What can I say, I like all the female figures the most.
Quote - I don't have any psycho babble to describe it. Just this observation. Missouri is looking at passing laws against cyber harrassment after a certain local case where a teen was harrassed so severly online by an adult that she commited suicide. People need to start waking up and realising they can't just be hateful because it's "Their Style" or whatever other excuse they may have.
Cyber harassment is causing real pain for some people. Whether these sensitive individuals should be in online forums is another matter entirely, but people need to know there's a growing awareness of the cyber world and legal eyes are looking.
There's so much utterly wrong-headed thinking wrapped up into a single bundle here, that it's hard to know where to even begin with this one. Let's try to inject a note of logic to this uber-emotional style of......I won't dignify it by calling it "debate"........this way:
1. Comparing an open forum debate to an infamous suicide which happened as a result of a case-by-fraud committed as an intentional criminal act against a helpless 13-year-old girl is........how can I put this politely?.......just a bit of an intellectual stretch. The utterly vacuous reasoning behind such an implied association is....so outrageously bizarre as to be breath-taking in its naïveté. It's equivalent to comparing a political debate on a talk show to a rape. Un-be-lievable.
Debate is a great tradition. And there's no guarantee that you'll leave one unscathed. If that's a concern: then it's better not to get into the water in the first place. But comparing the outcome of an open forum debate in such a format as this one to a fraudulent cyber-crime committed against a child? It's -- asinine.
2. "Legal eyes are looking" -- :rolleyes: In such a case as this: it's more like "sensible eyes are rolling".
I hope that this helps someone to be a little less sensitive -- and perhaps a little more sensible.
Unreal.
Xeno there's nothing assinine about comparing postings made that are deliberate in their baiting nature to the same sort of behavior that this case involves. Sorry if you consider it assinine or naive but we don't all subscribe to your belief that only the strong should survive in the forums. Courtesy is something that everyone should learn to use, including yourself.
You just can't assume that the person on the other side of the debate is of the same emotional and mental stamina as yourself when getting into these discussions online. So many disabled and frankly emotionally stunted individuals are online now a days because of the wide use of the internet now, you just can't assume that the other person can "Take it" or stand up for themselves. I've known many mentally disabled individuals who's parents gave them computers to play with and go online.
One particular individual I've known for over 20 years from back when Delphi was a dial up service. He was my age and his "Mommy" bought him everything he wanted. He was constantly harrassed by individuals even when they knew he was mentally incapable of defending himself and many people had to stand up to his bashers for him, including myself. So, naive? No. Been online way too long for that and seen this same sort of shit over and over again.
Quote - Xeno there's nothing assinine about comparing postings made that are deliberate in their baiting nature to the same sort of behavior that this case involves. Sorry if you consider it assinine or naive but we don't all subscribe to your belief that only the strong should survive in the forums. Courtesy is something that everyone should learn to use, including yourself.
If you aren't "strong", then think twice before becoming involved in a debate -- whether the topic is politics or "art". And I don't "consider" the comparison of criminal acts to a forum debate to be asinine and naive -- it IS asinine & naive.
But it's an interesting tactic, though. If you can't win a debate directly with reason and logic -- then solve the problem by calling your debate opponent a criminal. Once again: it's an uber-emotional response when there's nothing else -- that resides within the realm of even half-logic -- left to say.
As for courtesy: that's a good idea. Try it sometime.
I haven't been discourteous in this discussion and I haven't called you a criminal. I'm merely pointing out some items to be concidered. One simply doesn't have the luxury of assuming your "Debate" opponent is someone who can take it these days. That's all I'm saying. If you want to consider that name calling, I'll leave you with your own words on the matter.
Quote - If that's offensive to hear.......then there is a reason.
I just feel that things were going along just fine and the conversation was interesting, and along comes a bully who is always a bully and starts his crap. It's been going on for an awfully long time now, enough is enough. And conniekat8, I didn't mean to imply that you had said anything that I took as offensive, sorry.
Quote - I haven't been discourteous in this discussion and I haven't called you a criminal. I'm merely pointing out some items to be concidered. One simply doesn't have the luxury of assuming your "Debate" opponent is someone who can take it these days. That's all I'm saying. If you want to consider that name calling, I'll leave you with your own words on the matter.
Quote - If that's offensive to hear.......then there is a reason.
Yes -- you most definitely have called me a criminal -- by comparing my up-front & honest debating tactics as being equivalent to a woman who fraudulently & with malice aforethought persecuted a little girl and drove her to suicide. That's calling me a criminal. And it's most definitely not under the rubric of "courtesy". It's also -- again -- utterly & completely asinine.
If that's offensive to hear........then there is a reason.
Quote - I just feel that things were going along just fine and the conversation was interesting, and along comes a bully who is always a bully and starts his crap. It's been going on for an awfully long time now, enough is enough. And conniekat8, I didn't mean to imply that you had said anything that I took as offensive, sorry.
Who's the bully? The one who started the fight? And who did that? I'd say that it was the one who attacked first...........and then didn't like being told that others disagreed with their position.
I don't know but stories like that make me think twice about what I say. I love a good debate, but I really don't want anyone hurting themselves over the whole thing. Things I say don't make the earth shake even if I insult someone, that doesn't hold me responcible for snuffing themselves. However, the court seems to think so now. Believe me. Weak people that feel sorry for themselves and pet too much stock in others opinion of them are probably going to do something stupid eventually anyways with a frame of mind like that in this world. Who can tell they're talking to one? So as a rule we all have to go about lives now like Mr Rodgers. It's a wonderful day in the neighborhood would you could you be mine? See ya
XENOPHONZ: I have been reading your posts for as long as I have been lurking and as long as I've been posting (2YRs maybe) and while I sometimes find your style irritating I have not seen you attack people in their personall lives. Having an irritating syle is quite a different thing from using knowledge of someones personal life to pick at them with little barbs and innuendo till you get them to react. I don't take offense to your posts and never have.
Quote - I don't know but stories like that make me think twice about what I say. I love a good debate, but I really don't want anyone hurting themselves over the whole thing. Things I say don't make the earth shake even if I insult someone, that doesn't hold me responcible for snuffing themselves. However, the court seems to think so now. Believe me. Weak people that feel sorry for themselves and pet too much stock in others opinion of them are probably going to do something stupid eventually anyways with a frame of mind like that in this world. Who can tell they're talking to one? So as a rule we all have to go about lives now like Mr Rodgers. It's a wonderful day in the neighborhood would you could you be mine? See ya
For some reason, now I've got the Barney song stuck in my head..........
I suppose that all political bloggers / commentators are now criminals. As is anyone who has an opinion -- and who defends that opinion strongly. Remember: legal eyes are watching. :scared:
Quote - XENOPHONZ: I have been reading your posts for as long as I have been lurking and as long as I've been posting (2YRs maybe) and while I sometimes find your style irritating I have not seen you attack people in their personall lives. Having an irritating syle is quite a different thing from using knowledge of someones personal life to pick at them with little barbs and innuendo till you get them to react. I don't take offense to your posts and never have.
Good -- because I don't take offense at your posts, either. Although they can be irritating sometimes (joking -- but with a point 
).
Quote - >> Before you get your panties in a knot about sexual orientation, know that I'm merely saying
Oh gosh, Tom, NOTHIN' wrong with prefacing things like that, huh?
Oh, christ Sean... here, let me quote someone who put it more succinctly than I wish to muster:
Quote - Sean, you really need to learn eventually to take responsibility for managing your own feelings, and stop blaming them on everyone else. Noone can make you feel a certain way without your own permission.
You may think you're trashing Penguinisto or someone else, whomever it is you're fighting with this time, but all youl're doing is exposing your own emotional immaturity... which is at rather alarming levels for an adult.
...what she said. Nothing I could ever hope to write improve on it, really.
Quote -
Screw this place.
Umm, okay. See ya. Kindly take the drama with you, 'cause we already got more than plenty around here. kthxbye
--
In other news...
Wheatpenny is a nice guy... why in the hell is someone trashing him all the sudden? Oh, that's supposedly for me, innit? Err, whatever, I guess. Try harder if you desire to insult next time, 'kay? I've been called far worse by far better, so fair warning; you got a hard, steep hill to climb before you get there.
Meanwhile, you should take your own advice vis-a-vis knowing the history. You see, Sean and I go way back, years before you showed up - there's a very long and very boring list of forum debates that Sean and I have enjoyed, up until he decided to use sexual orientation as some sort of crutch, which is why I go out of my way to try and specify that they aren't any sort of issue early on (especially when it comes to his opinions about feminine cheesecake.)
But wahey - if you want to get your pa- (oh, okay - fine. I'll start over):
If you want to get all offended- about what is a very common expression ithat I have thrown indiscriminately at everyone at least once, then you go right ahead git mad, y'heah? No skin off my butt.
(now where's that damned eye-roll smiley icon when you really need it?)
/P
Quote - I think Xeno is ussually honest and blunt in his beliefs.
I am fully cognizant of the fact that if I'm going to dish it out: then I'd also better be prepared to take it. Everyone who chooses to participate in an open debate would do well to realize & understand the implications of that formula.
Quote - LostinSpaceman was saying be carefull. These words don't float off into thin air either.
That's just it -- walking on eggshells essentially means "no debating allowed". Or at least "no strong opinions allowed". Do we really want that to be the rule in here.........? Some no doubt do. I'm not one of them.
Quote - I merely made an observation. Xeno took it personally. And he's the one who says people are being too sensitive.
In order to take it personally, I'd have to grant the premise behind it some degree of validity. I did not take it personally. I did, however, point out that you intended it personally.
Quote - He's probably right too. That the nature of people. Good night folks I'm turning in.
Me, too. Gotta head off -- I have places to be in the morning.
Y'all have fun. And remember: the LAW is watching you -- so you'd best be minding your P's & Q's. Or is that "peas" and "cues".......? I forget......
Goodnight (That's intended as a farewell -- not as an exclamation -- lest anyone take offense.)
Quote - > Quote - I merely made an observation. Xeno took it personally. And he's the one who says people are being too sensitive.
In order to take it personally, I'd have to grant the premise behind it some degree of validity. I did not take it personally. I did, however, point out that you intended it personally.
See, now you're Psychic! I'm amazed that you would know What I intended when quite obviously to me, that wasn't my intention at all. It was merely an observation for "EVERYONE" to take a little more care with how they treat people in the forums and it was made as a reply to someone who wan't even you. How you can call that "Intended" for you or "Aimed" at you is something only you can say for yourself but you can not say how I intended it because frankly, you're not in my skin or even under it.
SeanMartin complained that everyone is Poserdom is utterly obessessed with one Daz mesh The mesh is female, so with a slip of logic certain parties assumed that SeanMartin had complained that everyone in Poserdom is obsessed with females. In the words of Mr. Spock, this is highly illogical.
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Quote - SeanMartin complained that everyone is Poserdom is utterly obessessed with one Daz mesh The mesh is female, so with a slip of logic certain parties assumed that SeanMartin had complained that everyone in Poserdom is obsessed with females. In the words of Mr. Spock, this is highly illogical.
That was my take on what he was saying too. And there were some very good points made on why that is, basically it's what the buyers want, and you cannot controle what people want. There is lots of other interesting information in the thread too about the market and how it all works.
Quote - Xeno there's nothing assinine about comparing postings made that are deliberate in their baiting nature to the same sort of behavior that this case involves. Sorry if you consider it assinine or naive but we don't all subscribe to your belief that only the strong should survive in the forums. Courtesy is something that everyone should learn to use, including yourself.
While I fully agree that courtesy and respect should be given to everyone, I couldn't disagee more that one can draw any sort of direct correlation between this situation and the one mentioned in Missouri. That's a lot like saying that someone firing spitballs at you through a straw is exactly the same as someone shooting a bazooka at you. Ok, both are similar in the most basic tenant, you are being shot at. But the level of damage one could reasonably expect from a spitball is nowhere near the level of damage one could expect from a large, explosive anti-tank round. It simply makes no sense to compare the two.
In much the same fashion, the level of damage one could expect from what is from all outward appearances just a poorly chosen remark can in no way be compared to the level of damage one might expect to inflict with a constant, vicious, repetitive cycle of overt and blatent harrassement.
Hey, I'm all for treating everyone with dignity and respect, but lets face it, there are more than a few people out there who are just oversensitive and will blow most anything you say way out of proportion, even when the remarks you made had little or nothing to do with them or there personal situation at all.
So while I'd love the message bases to be a happy place where everyone always got along and respected one anothers point's of view, sadly in the real world I recognize that such just isn't the case. And while I try to avoid posting anything that is going to seriously hack someone else off, sadly it seems that doing so is nearly impossible. No matter what you say someone is bound to take it the wrong way, blow it way out of proportion, get overly defensive and even downright nasty about it.
Case in point, recently in another thread I started discussing the possibility of developing an open source replacement for Poser, and almost immediatly I was verbally assualted by about half a dozen posters accusing me of all sorts of things, up to and including trying to perpetrate some sort of fraud on the community as a whole. All of this for merely discussing the possibility of writing a free program that might at some point replace Poser in functionality.
You'd have thought I had egged there mom's houses and shouted obscenties at them at the top of my lungs considering the way they reacted and some of the downright nastiness that was posted.
But hey, such is life. I'm not crying about it, I have no intention of letting a few nasty, childish individuals run me out of the message base nor will I allow them to dissuade me from starting work on FAST. I just chalked it up nothing more than a small group of people who really needed to get an emotional reality check and moved on. I'm simply suggesting that Sean do the same.
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There are dark forces that would like to transform Poser forums into am radio political talk. Make something free and you're a commie or at least a liberal. Complain about v4 dominance and some will assume other things.
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I didn't make the direct correlation to Xeno's posts from my observation. He did when he took it personally. I merely made a generalised observation about treating people with more respect and based it on something that strikes close to home with me since I live in St. Louis close to where the case in my post happened. Maybe hearing about this case on my local news on a semi daily basis has made me more aware of how people treat each other in the forums here.
*"Case in point, recently in another thread I started discussing the possibility of developing an open source replacement for Poser, and almost immediatly I was verbally assualted by about half a dozen posters accusing me of all sorts of things, up to and including trying to perpetrate some sort of fraud on the community as a whole. All of this for merely discussing the possibility of writing a free program that might at some point replace Poser in functionality"
That is so far from the truth. Just because someone says they will believe it when they see it, does not mean they are accusing you of anything. In fact, all those bad people also wished you well in completing it. You do realize that it's the same people reading this thread.
No one is trying to dissuade you from working on FAST. You believe there is. Sorry, there is no conspiracy.
I tried biting my tongue on this but that was totally untrue.
Quote - That is so far from the truth. Just because someone says they will believe it when they see it, does not mean they are accusing you of anything. In fact, all those bad people also wished you well in completing it. You do realize that it's the same people reading this thread.
No one is trying to dissuade you from working on FAST. You believe there is. Sorry, there is no conspiracy.
I tried biting my tongue on this but that was totally untrue.
Never said it was a consipiracy, merely said I got a some nasty responses, which I did. And yes, some of them were accusatory - and, for the record, no where was your name mentioned nor was any of that directed at you, in fact I wasn't even thinking of you at all when I wrote it.
I haven't the foggiest notion why you seem to continually try to start some sort of argument with me, but frankly I'm just not interested. The thread is still there for anyone to read, let them read it and decide on their own the level of nastiness in some of the responses I recieved.
Other than that I have absolutely no desire to engage in any sort of argument or fight with you, no matter how determined you seem to be to start one. Honestly I'm just entirely too busy at the moment and don't have the time. Sorry.
-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...
Quote - I didn't make the direct correlation to Xeno's posts from my observation. He did when he took it personally. I merely made a generalised observation about treating people with more respect and based it on something that strikes close to home with me since I live in St. Louis close to where the case in my post happened. Maybe hearing about this case on my local news on a semi daily basis has made me more aware of how people treat each other in the forums here.
Point taken. I don't think a direct correlation can be made, but I certainly can see that it would be nice if certain people were to treat others with a bit more respect.
Please note for the record that at no time did I express or imply that TASHAR was in this category. I was not thinking of, referring to, or gesturing towards TASHAR in any way. Perhaps by including this disclaimer on all future postings I can possibly avoid what is seemingly becoming the inevitable misunderstandings that seem to follow all of my posts. Lol
-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...
Quote - > Quote - I didn't make the direct correlation to Xeno's posts from my observation. He did when he took it personally. I merely made a generalised observation about treating people with more respect and based it on something that strikes close to home with me since I live in St. Louis close to where the case in my post happened. Maybe hearing about this case on my local news on a semi daily basis has made me more aware of how people treat each other in the forums here.
Point taken. I don't think a direct correlation can be made, but I certainly can see that it would be nice if certain people were to treat others with a bit more respect.
Please note for the record that at no time did I express or imply that TASHAR was in this category. I was not thinking of, referring to, or gesturing towards TASHAR in any way. Perhaps by including this disclaimer on all future postings I can possibly avoid what is seemingly becoming the inevitable misunderstandings that seem to follow all of my posts. Lol
I'm starting to think I need one of those disclaimers for some people myself. :tt2:
Quote - Your giving more credit to yourself about me than I would. I'm not even hostile towards you. LOL.
Sorry, but where I'm from calling someone a liar is pretty hostile, only to follow it up by implying there egotistical is downright snotty. But hey, like I said, I have no interest in fighting with you and no idea why on earth you seem so bound and determined to start one, but not my problem either way.
My points been made, and that pretty much ends the 15 minutes of attention that this whole thing was worth. Cheerio.
-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...
Quote - [I'm starting to think I need one of those disclaimers for some people myself. :tt2:
Lol.. starting to think it might not be a bad idea to include that on all my postings as well, considering how far out on a limb some oversensitive types can get.
-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...
Holy hell, you guys. I'm out of town for a week and you all go insane.
Ok, in all seriousness, I'm gonna go check the challenges because I'm late, and then I'm going to read this thread from start to finish.
If warnings are warranted, they'll be handed out.
Jeni
Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it
into a fruit salad.
thanks for the welcome back, guys...I'm not done reading the thread, but I'll be back in about 6 hours...gotta love work.
Anyway, in the meantime, let's PLEASE, for the love of my mild sanity, keep it civil. Or, how about this: If you could, possibly, in any CONCEIVABLE manner, on this or any parallel dimension , get a warning for saying it, keep it to yourself.
Jeni
Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it
into a fruit salad.
Getting back to the original topic; I think it's a given that Vicky in her various incarnations is the most popular Poser figure. Why is this? Is she more versatile than other figures, do people like her 'look' better than others? Is it better, or more pervasive, advertising?
For my part, I use Vicky because I like the 'look' she gives and the amount of clothing and props available.
*Getting back to the original topic; I think it's a given that Vicky in her various incarnations is the most popular Poser figure. Why is this? Is she more versatile than other figures, do people like her 'look' better than others? Is it better, or more pervasive, advertising?
For my part, I use Vicky because I like the 'look' she gives and the amount of clothing and props available.
I agree. What I'm wondering though is just how big can Vicky's boobies get?
I'll give the folks who make the products alot
of support because I know a lot of time went
into making what they sell. And as many products
may seem alike, all are different in some way.
I don't have time to make my own stuff and I still
love V3 so I buy characters and clothes for her
here at Renderosity and it's fun just to search the
store just in case I overlooked something I just
got to have. I love V4,A3,A4 SP3 and all the rest
too. I bought them all!
Beware-The Smoking Man Still Lives!
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Well, I don't know Sean or penny, all I can go by is what was posted, and honestly I just don't see what was posted warranting that kind of response.
If penny (or whoever's) intent was to berate Sean for his/her sexual orientation then obviously penny (or whoever)'s comments simply don't warrant any sort of response. There are always people out there who are going ot hate you because your the wrong color, or he wrong religion, or the wrong whatever.
You can spend your life getting extrodinarily upset by this and hate them back - which of course means they've won. Or you can just shake your head and move on. Life is just way too short to get all bent out of shape over some ignorant, hateful person posting ignorant, hateful remarks in a message base.
There is nothing righteous, noble, or even smart about responding to that sort of stupidity with vitrol. It is a collosal waste of time because you won't enlighten anyone who is that ignorant by doing so, and you certainly don't make yourself or whatever group you belong to that was "attacked" look that good either.
So, if penny (or Tom, or whoever this person is) really did mean that comment as an insult about Sean's sexual orientation, then they have my pity, however giving the comment as written I think yo have to read an awful lot into it to get to that point.
Regardless though Sean certainly didn't do himself/herself (please note, not a dig on orientation, but I don't know Sean and the name itself could be either gender) any favors by responding in such a fashion.
-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...