I realise that this might be a touchy subject and that I'm probably going to come in for quite a bit of flack for bringing this up but it seems to me that a lot of the new items coming up for sale in the store are much higher in price of late. I would have thought that in hard and uncertain times like these when a lot of the communities disposable income is shrinking dramatically that prices would be even more competitive than usual to encourage members to carry on spending. Last year a lot of quality new items were coming online at around $9 - $10, but now it seems $12 - $14 is the starting point for a lot of sellers. And to be perfectly honest some of the items coming up for sale lately in the store I would'nt even rate for free never mind pay $14 for. I spent over $1,500 on Renderosity in the last 12 month's, but now as the hard times start to bite I will be much more selective in the future and price and value for money will play a major part in what I buy in the future. Vendors who price their items realistically and sympathetically in light of the current financial climate will always continue to sell. But those who are pricing according to "the going rate" rather than an items true worth will I predict find the going exceptionally hard for quite a long time to come.

Bear in mind that strict "supply and demand" doesn't apply very well here.
Only a small number of merchants do enough volume to be concerned
with the optimal price point.  Most are happy to make a few sales now and
then.   So a decrease in volume may not even be noticeable, and it wouldn't
trigger a price change. 

Let's say one of my products sold 5 units in the last year.  If it's selling more
slowly because of economic conditions, it might sell 3 units this year. 
I could gamble on lowering the price, but I don't know if that will make it
sell more often;  I do know that I'll get less money from each unit.

To an extent I agree with you. On both points. But there has been a weeding out process among older merchants from the flee market era to the newer merchants in this "larger pack' corporate profit era. (at 'osity)

My new city is 18 buildings, think I could or would sell it at $5.00?

Thanks ockham & geoegress for responding.

I understand that there's two sides to every coin. And obviously everyone who sells here would like their items to sell well. But if we take V4 characters as an example. The site is overun with V4 lookalikes. It seems that many vendors think that a few dial setting changes and a re-texture is ample reason to charge the same as the real innivative, quality output from the likes of Frad, DM and Co . I've litteraly stopped buying Victoria characters now because I very much doubt there's a model out there that is significantly different enough to others I have already bought to tempt me into another V4  purchase. I don't mind paying top dollar for new, unique, quality products and I'm not suggesting that anyone should stop trying to sell what they have produced. But some sellers should truly ask themselves if their price points are realistic given the plethera of similar items available and the very difficult financial climate we are all experiencing at this time.

yup :)
Market saturation - especially with the V4's is a real problem.

A character pack has to be really bloody good for me to buy it, there are prolly a handfull of merchants that I would buy character packs from.

For other models, i.e. buildings, sets, vehicles etc. I'm happy to pay higher prices for top quality models, again there are just a handfull that I would buy from regularly on that score!!

I have Hexagon, I just don't have time to learn it due to RL and making images for clients, so I generally buy what I need, that said I have become more fussy in what I spend on and I'll be switching it off after this weekend because Vue7 is about to be released and I'll need my cash for that....................LOL!!

Please don't get me started on software prices. That's another thorn in my side, LOL!. I wanted to buy a program this year called SiteGrinder ( a Photoshop plug-in). So I stopped all my model purchases for a month in order to buy it. When I had enough I went to the site to make my purchase only to find that the price had gone up $100. It wasn't even a major revision. They just decided they wanted more for it and bumped the price up. Needless to say they ended up losing a sale and I now just continue to use Photoshop the way I always have.

They bumped it up that much? Whew! Food stores around here are doing that. What I bought last week for , say, $100.00 will cost about $150.00 this week...sigh. So if I buy Poser goodies I have to go for affordable. And I'm looking at my own products and thinking, are they affordable to most folks. So a few more discounts on them now and then to may even out the slow market. :)

But those who are pricing according to "the going rate" rather than an items true worth

How do you calculate an item's true worth though?   I've always found when shopping that while some merchants put a price tag a bit too high for what they offer, others should really think of increasing their prices because for all that is in their pack, for the quality of the content and the amount of work that must have gone in it the price seems way too low, they'll have to get an awful lot of sales to justify the amount of work and the low price...  It kinda even things out I suppose...  

Many merchants do this for a living, prices for their groceries have gone up just like it has gone up for everybody else and while lowering their prices may help them get a few more sales, they have to wonder if those few more sales will be enough to compensate and give them the extra they need to pay their higher bills.  It's a gamble for a merchant, either you lower your prices, don't make as much per sale but maybe get a few more sales, enough to make it worth the lower price or slightly raise your price, not get as many sales because the price is higher, but make a little bit more per sale...  It's always really difficult to find the balance in there.

I agree about the characters, charging big bucks for a character for V4 when there are so many characters for V4 out there may not seem like a good idea, but then, what's really the bad idea? Charging big bucks for it or making it in the first place when one knows the market is already filled with similar packs?  I think even if those prices were chopped in half, the product would still not sell very much (not enough to justify the work that went into it) unless the merchant is really well known for the quality of his/her products and products by those well known merchants would most likely sell well no matter the price tag.

don't quote me on this, but the current feeling amongst economists is that prices of
everything were artificially high for the last 2 yrs., hence prices for everything will
continue to drop thru at least mid-2009, due to international market pressures.

You could well be right about that Miss Nancy and I hope you are, lol. I'm UK based and the value of the £ to the $ has fallen around 25% in just a few weeks. That means apart from a tightening of the belt because of rising food & fuel prices, what is left to buy models and software is considerably less. So I would anticipate that UK purchases on Renderosity will plummet over the coming months if they have'nt already. I imagine that the UK has been a happy hunting ground for many Renderosity sellers in the past. My buying habits have had to change dramatically over the last couple of months. I'm taking maximum advantage of what is available on my Daz Passport membership and I'm continually shopping for a good deal before I part with my cash.  So any price reduction is very welcome but it's just as important that the quality of the product meets the value put on it by the seller. I still feel it's often a case of  a "what can I get for it" mentality when it comes to pricing rather than "what it's worth". As there's no "try before you buy" in this market place the present economic climate may well kill off speculative purchases where you might buy a model because you like the look of it rather than you have a use for it. Price reductions though could well be the incentive required to keep people spending.

I will post this later today in the Gallery, but I wanted to add it here to show many vendors do understand and appreciate your view! :)

Happy Halloween!

Hugs

Ariana

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/rrfilelock/download.php?fileid=35716&key=3993

Quote - don't quote me on this, but the current feeling amongst economists is that prices of
everything were artificially high for the last 2 yrs., hence prices for everything will
continue to drop thru at least mid-2009, due to international market pressures.

Prices for everything?

Not prices for Poser content that's for sure.  When the marketplace boomed everyone wanted a piece of the action and to get that little piece they began to drastically undercut.  So for a Poser content creator who is trying to compete they may not make even minimum wage on the sales of their products based on time put into creation.  So while other things went up (and still go up) Poser Content has gone drastically down.

Not everyone makes a living at this, or even enough to support their Poser use, how often do you see a vendor stating how they would love to buy something but they can't afford it? They can't afford it because they are not earning enough.  Why?  Think about how often a comment is made that someone is doing it for a "hobby" well when the vendor has a hobbyist mentality they don't really care about their income from it, it's about recognition, satisfaction and a tiny bit of payback to their wallet. 

This has created a market where customers think that $5.00 for 15 items is fair.  Do you have any idea how long it takes to create packs like that? I'll just say they are not created in a day.  Let's say you sell 100 copies (and the average creator does not sell that many) that's $500.00 and RO takes 50% so that's now $250.00 in their pocket.

If the pack took 3 solid long days of work (for me a day of work is about 12 hours - not 8), let's say it's textures, so that's texture creation, MAT creation, packaging and promos.  That's under $7.00 an hour, above minimum wage but based on selling at least 100 copies of a product that gets buried quickly in the MP.  For the average creator they might sale half of that , making their profit $125.00 which is under $3.50 an hour.

Consider that the majority of the RO market vendors are most likely far far below that number because despite the large membership numbers actual buyers are far lower.

So finally the market is reversing itself to a more reasonable pricing structure, not high end prices but hopefully a middle ground that  works for both sides.  Content Creators are also having to stretch those dollars further and they are doing it with far less dollars.

Granted (and thankfully because I'm a shopper too) the prices will never be what they were even 6 years ago when you could expect to pay upwards of $30.00 for a decent Male texture set (what I paid for Kane at DAZ by Syyd for M2) or $30.00 just to upgrade to M2 or $35.00 for The Adventurers, a clothing pack that everyone was using at one time.  Oh and let's not forget the $60.900 price tag on the Changing Ponytail before it went PC, and that was without the add-on expansion which was another $13.00.

so fair pricing has to be done, and a $5.00 minimum is awfully low to be fair to the Creator.  On the other hand though if they earn a bit more it could give them more time to create lower priced small packs and free gifts because they don't have to work quite as hard.

Excellent explaination Lady SilverMage!

I feel that pricing your products at a reasonable price, that compensates your efforts is a really good thing. But still feel that it should be the vendor that sets thier prices, not a flat blanket pricing guide. Some sets have 5 items of excecptional content that could easily sell for $20.00 and some have 25 that are only worth $5.00. So it is up to the vendor to police thier works and price them fairly (*or increase thier value by quality vs quanity).

I have been trying to learn how to texture my models and now have a very much improved idea of the work many do. So I have changed my pricing and product ideas drastically.

Hugs

Ariana

Thanks for your contribution to the debate LadySilverMage. I take onboard what you are saying and I agree that creators should get fair reward for their labours. But you yourself point out that Renderosity takes 50% of the price paid. If your selling a model say on Renderosity for $15 and only actually receiving $7.50 it's not the buyers fault. Surely you would get better sales selling direct from your own website for $11?. That way it's a win, win situation for the seller and the buyer.  There are a few sellers who sell both on Renderosity and on their own web sites but I notice the prices are (in general) the same on both. Now whether it's a condition that Renderosity insist on I don't know as I'm not a seller. But if you are willing to let Renderosity take 50% of your income just for the listing of your items in their store then it might be a good time for sellers to either renegotiate their terms or go it alone. Judging by the figures you have given for the average seller I don't think that Renderosity can be that hot of a selling medium anyway if sales are as poor as you say. Surely it would'nt take too much effort for someone to put up a gateway site to list and link to the various sellers sites?. The costs involved of running your own web site pale into insignificance compared to what your are paying Renderosity in commissions. Please don't get me wrong. I think Renderosity is a great site but I would be more than happy to buy direct knowing that the seller was getting a bigger cut and I was saving money also. I already buy direct when it's in my interests to do so. Lastly, please remember that a hell of a lot of buyers buy purely as a hobby and for fun. They have no professional or commercial intentions for the models they buy. It would'nt take a lot to stop a hobbyist or enthusiast to cut back on their purchases as other far more important demands are placed on their disposable incomes. I've noticed recently that Daz has been incorporating a far greater inventory of good value models within their passort range than previously offered, and I for one have increased my spending at Daz because of this. I think Daz are ahead of the loop at the moment in realising that the present downturn is going to be brutal. They appear to consolidating their customer base with some great value for money offers and (for me) it's never been a better time to be a Daz Passport member. Perhaps it's time for the sellers to put pressure on Renderosity to do something similar!.

While you may think Daz is doing a good thing by putting great products out at ridiculously low prices, many vendors wouldn't exactly agree as it tends to devalue the market, people start thinking that there can't be all that much work in those products for them to be sold so cheap.  With those low prices, Daz doesn't make a lot of money though, it's mostly with the membership people have to purchase in order to get those great prices that Daz makes its money I would say.

Here's the thing with lowering prices to remain competitive and generate sales...  Merchant A lowers his prices so that his products are more competitive then any other merchants in the market.  He gets tons of sales because people buy his stuff instead of buying others since they're so much cheaper so his idea seems really neat at first.  But then other merchants who have lost sales to this merchant start lowering their prices so they can compete with him and merchant A starts loosing some of his sales because people start buying other products that have gone down in prices, his number of unit sales go back to what they were before he lowered his prices but he makes less money because his prices are lower then they were then. So he feels he has to lower his prices some more so that his products are even cheaper then the other products in the market and hopes to increase his number of sales that way and then other merchants start doing the same thing and...  It's a vicious circle and only works for a short time, then the merchant is back to square one only with a much smaller income.

As a merchant here, I can tell you I'm very happy Renderosity isn't following in Daz'  footsteps because prices are already really low, if they have to get even lower then that, it won't be worth it anymore to put time and effort in the creation of products, too much work for too little profit. 

Judging by the figures you have given for the average seller I don't think that Renderosity can be that hot of a selling medium anyway if sales are as poor as you say. Surely it would'nt take too much effort for someone to put up a gateway site to list and link to the various sellers sites?

This selling medium while not too hot is still hotter then trying to sell in your own private store for most vendors, it's very hard to find ways to generate traffic on a private website.  A gateway site is a good idea, but most people still prefer to shop in a store where you can find everything rather then have to go through I don't know how many small stores to find what you're looking for, it's more convenient.

But Lucie, for good or bad that's the free market system that we all live in. It's a dog eat dog system I know but that's the way it is I'm afraid. I dare say you look to buy at the best prices possible also. If you were in the market for a new car and two different dealers were selling the car you wanted but one was selling $5,000 cheaper, which would you buy?. It's even more important to set prices competitively when your selling non essential items. But it does'nt make sense (to me) to hand over 50% of your income just for exposure on one web site. Take Jaguarwoman as an example. She sells here and from her own website also. Now the first thing I ever bought of hers was from here but now I buy her items directly through her web site. The items are no cheaper (as they're already competitively priced), but at least I know she's getting the full amount I pay rather than having to give 50% away to Renderosity. Xurge3d is another case in point. Fantastic items reasonable priced and sold direct to the customer. As it is I buy virtually everything they produce as it's released. But if they were selling on Renderosity they would have to sell at double the price they sell for on their web site to achieve the same results and that would stop me buying their products. We're led to believe that people are now shopping wiser because of the credit crunch. So perhaps convienence is'nt as important today compared with getting better value for money. The extra click needed from a gateway link is surely a minor inconvenience if it saves a buyer money and makes more for the vendor. I don't have any blindfold loyalty to either Renderosity, Daz or any other 3d web site where I spend my money.. As a buyer I go where I get most bang for my buck. I just feel Renderosity are not doing enough top keep me spending here compared to other sellers and a look at my different  account sheets would prove the point. I'm still spending a fair amount  per month but my purchases have made a dramatic swing away from Renderosity for the time being in the search for better prices and I have found new sites and vendors selling at very competitive prices that I did'nt know existed until I started searching for alternatives.

Of course people will buy what is cheaper, but eventually a merchant has to decide whether lowering prices to remain competitive is worth it or not.   Eventually the prices will get so low that vendors will stop creating because they won't be making enough at it and then there won't be very many products in the various stores to choose from...  Or in those stores all you will have is crappy products that are really worth only a couple of bucks because vendors won't find it worth it to invest all this time to make sure you get quality.

You give Jaguarwoman as an example of one who has both a private store and sells here, same prices in both places.  Were she to stop selling here so she doesn't have to give that 50% to Rendo, what guarantee does she have that all the people who buy her products here would go and buy her products in her private store?  In order to make the same amount of money or more, more then half her Rendo buyers would have to take that step and go buy from her store or else she'd be loosing and in this case, she might have to increase the prices in her own store to compensate for the loss.  Now if she had to do that, some people may stop buying from her cause they couldn't afford it anymore.  Jaguarwoman already has a nice bit of traffic on her website, she's been working at this for a long long time and I'd say her sales over there may be just as good as they are here, same with Xurge3D, he's a very well known merchant and has worked for many years at building his name, but it's not like this for everybody...  I also have my private store, same prices as here and for one sale in my store I get about 20-30 here, my store has been around for about 3 years and my website for more then a decade.  Should I ignore the exposure I get here to only sell in my store, do you really think I'd sell as much?

Lucie

Quote - But those who are pricing according to "the going rate" rather than an items true worth

How do you calculate an item's true worth though?   I've always found when shopping that while some merchants put a price tag a bit too high for what they offer, others should really think of increasing their prices because for all that is in their pack, for the quality of the content and the amount of work that must have gone in it the price seems way too low, they'll have to get an awful lot of sales to justify the amount of work and the low price...  It kinda even things out I suppose...  

Many merchants do this for a living, prices for their groceries have gone up just like it has gone up for everybody else and while lowering their prices may help them get a few more sales, they have to wonder if those few more sales will be enough to compensate and give them the extra they need to pay their higher bills.  It's a gamble for a merchant, either you lower your prices, don't make as much per sale but maybe get a few more sales, enough to make it worth the lower price or slightly raise your price, not get as many sales because the price is higher, but make a little bit more per sale...  It's always really difficult to find the balance in there.

I agree about the characters, charging big bucks for a character for V4 when there are so many characters for V4 out there may not seem like a good idea, but then, what's really the bad idea? Charging big bucks for it or making it in the first place when one knows the market is already filled with similar packs?  I think even if those prices were chopped in half, the product would still not sell very much (not enough to justify the work that went into it) unless the merchant is really well known for the quality of his/her products and products by those well known merchants would most likely sell well no matter the price tag.

Perfect analysis, nothing more to add

well first of all I dont take sides. I see the problem from both sides.

Venders also feel the crises, we can see that on our sale.

drakmanover

"quata"

"It seems that many vendors think that a few dial setting changes and a re-texture is ample reason to charge the same as the real innivative, quality output from the likes of Frad, DM and Co ."

You make it sound that easy, and Im surpriced that youre not become a vendor long time ago.

Did DM and co (whoever they are) lower their prices  ?

NO!!!  so whats youre point

I think you have a lot of fustrations because of the crises, and I do respect that and I do respect youre freedom to speach also....get it out !!!!!

but honestly Calm down for a sec.

 Lots of  vendors have freeware you can download..Even awesum quality stuff

"Quata"

"I spent over $1,500 on Renderosity in the last 12 month's"

Well I have spend 700 dollars every months before I become vendor. Now I havent so much time to make renders anymore and buy less.

Did you knew that a merchants butts have same shape as the seat on his/her pooter chair ? LOL

whoppersdesign

I'm perfectly  calm about things, thanks. Nothing to get too hot about really as everyone has a choice whether to buy or not. But lets face it. In general this is a "cottage industry" where 90% of the product is produced at home in someones study or bedroom for some extra income. Very few rely soley on what they sell here on Rendo. All I'm attempting to do is try and bring to the attention of vendors that there's a point at which some products becomes overpriced, and that in financially difficult times like these they should be very concious of what people are able to afford when pricing their products. Up until a few month's ago if i liked the look of something I'd buy it and then just add it to my collection for possible use at a later date. Now I only buy what I need when I need it. I assure you I only have the the best interests of both buyers and vendors at heart.

By the way!. I design web sites for a living and so my butt cheeks are welded into my chair permenantly, LOL!.

I'd say most vendors are already very conscious of all that, many of them are also buyers...

Well well.....are youre websites cheaper theese days because of the crisses ?

I dont sitting in a corner of my living room, but upstairs in my office.

I have no intens to rent a office outside town.

Where are you working with youre websites ???

Have you also thinking about that everytime you buy a package for 10 dollars the vendor only gets 5 dollars

cause renderostys staff do not working for free :)

And if you get plenty of money from youre webstore then I dont see the problem.

I think its great you only are buying the stuff you want to use right now....and not for later :)))
if there are product out in the store you dislike...then dont buy them LOL

and last...I do like youre sence of humor :)

I'll answer your questions as you ask them:

1. Yes, I have reduced the price of my work in order to keep the work coming in.

2. I rent an office and pay business rates.

3. I think it's wrong that Rendo should charge vendors 50% of every sale and I have said so 
   earlier.

4..Can you tell me how many staff work at Rendo and how much they are paid?.

1. If people only bought what they actually need on Rendo do you not think sales would tumble?.

2. Your sense of humour is'nt too bad either, LOL.

At the end of the day we're all still friends so I'll let you buy the next round of drinks!

**Lucie

**Just took my first peek at your store and was very impressed. You can expect an order or two from me in the near future when I've taken a proper look. The stock photo's look very interesting!.

This debate started as a general observation about prices. But  it seems a few feathers have been ruffled and some vendors have taken it as an insult which was not my intention.

I'll answer your ansawer as you replyed them:

1. So did I, I have 30% off on my store LOL

2. Quit that office, and use youre study room, then your trouble are over hehehe...

I know a couple of ppl that making websites too, but they are working from home.

No reason to pay for an office, and even make a mess of co2 every morning you have to drive in youre ole car hehehe...

1. I think a 50/50 deal are okay, theose people are online 24 hours pr day.

They are testing youre stuff, giving you support, store youre files, PR and much more.

4..I guess they are all payed... I do even hope they are payed well :))))

1. No I dont think so.... do you also buying more food than youre family can eat ?

2. Thanx :).

"At the end of the day we're all still friends so I'll let you buy the next round of drinks!"

Hehehe...I sure will LOL

I rent an office because it's the best solution for me. I can entertain clients and have all I need arranged the way I want it. If I could work from home full time I would but it's just not practicle for me.

I think your wrong though to think that a lot of sales are not impulse buys. Sometimes something looks too good to pass by. Just like the smell of hot doughnuts makes you feel hungry. How many people stop to buy the doughnuts even though they were'nt hungry before they caught the smell?. HOT DOUGHNUTS YUMMY!!!!!!!

Just for the record, my feathers haven't been ruffled, just trying to show the vendor's side of the medal really because I strongly believe that most of Rendo's vendors aren't overpricing their products...  Times are just tough for everyone and finding a good balance is not a piece of cake. :unsure:

Thank you kindly for the compliment!  :)

Whoppersdesign, can I tag along for the drink???  ;)

I dont eat dougnuts LOL

I can pass a candy store without buying anything.

I only eat fastfood MAX once a year.
ups...I watching  my paperhalo ROTFL.....

But when I see a store with clothes in town, I do freakin out  !!!! and so do my hubbys bank account hehhehe....

LOOOOOOOL Lucie...sure you can, youre more than welcome :))))
and besides Im totally agree with you :)

**whoppersdesign
**
I rest my case, LOL

Lucie.

Once I buy some of your products YOU CAN BUY THE DRINKS! LOL
 

"Lucie.

Once I buy some of your products YOU CAN BUY THE DRINKS! LOL"

ROTFL.. Fair :))))

Quote - Thanks for your contribution to the debate LadySilverMage. I take onboard what you are saying and I agree that creators should get fair reward for their labours. But you yourself point out that Renderosity takes 50% of the price paid. If your selling a model say on Renderosity for $15 and only actually receiving $7.50 it's not the buyers fault. Surely you would get better sales selling direct from your own website for $11?. That way it's a win, win situation for the seller and the buyer.  There are a few sellers who sell both on Renderosity and on their own web sites but I notice the prices are (in general) the same on both. Now whether it's a condition that Renderosity insist on I don't know as I'm not a seller. But if you are willing to let Renderosity take 50% of your income just for the listing of your items in their store then it might be a good time for sellers to either renegotiate their terms or go it alone. Judging by the figures you have given for the average seller I don't think that Renderosity can be that hot of a selling medium anyway if sales are as poor as you say. Surely it would'nt take too much effort for someone to put up a gateway site to list and link to the various sellers sites?. The costs involved of running your own web site pale into insignificance compared to what your are paying Renderosity in commissions. Please don't get me wrong. I think Renderosity is a great site but I would be more than happy to buy direct knowing that the seller was getting a bigger cut and I was saving money also. I already buy direct when it's in my interests to do so. Lastly, please remember that a hell of a lot of buyers buy purely as a hobby and for fun. They have no professional or commercial intentions for the models they buy. It would'nt take a lot to stop a hobbyist or enthusiast to cut back on their purchases as other far more important demands are placed on their disposable incomes. I've noticed recently that Daz has been incorporating a far greater inventory of good value models within their passort range than previously offered, and I for one have increased my spending at Daz because of this. I think Daz are ahead of the loop at the moment in realising that the present downturn is going to be brutal. They appear to consolidating their customer base with some great value for money offers and (for me) it's never been a better time to be a Daz Passport member. Perhaps it's time for the sellers to put pressure on Renderosity to do something similar!.

Actually I'm also a brokerage owner, have been for over 7 years so I look at it from 2 angles.  I also know that there are many buyers who refuse to shop outside their comfort zones.  They also like to know that there is some testing procedures in place, maybe not as stringently or as restrictive at Rendo as elsewhere but the products are checked to make sure they work.

Buyers do not want to shop at 50 different stores so brokerages are needed and the brokerages need to get a cut, what that cut is might differ but so too might the number of customers.

Brokerages take their percentage to handle various aspects of the selling process, so if a vendor has a store of their own they are still putting out a percentage of their income on the costs and maintenance for that store.  As an example I had custom code created for the back end of my site just this week, a customer would never see it but it will help things run smoothly.  The cost for  processing payments if you do not use just Paypal (which charges a business account as well) and the time spent maintaining and designing.  So while it may seem viable to say - go start your own store and keep the money that really  isn't an answer for everyone and so the cut the brokerage takes is considered an expense for production.

We have very very loyal 3DA customers, but some of them will open buy from us via Content Paradise.  They buy regularly too but they have said that they will not buy from the us directly only because they want the convenience of 1 payment in 1 place.  I understand that I want the same things.

As for hobbyist, well that doesn't fly overly much with me, I mean I take it into consideration and we tend to have extremely fair pricing.  However, that said there are many types of hobbies and some of them can be quite expensive, from the costs for soap and candle making, to photography and cars among various others.  People are "enthusiasts" and hobbiests for a reason, because they love it.  Frankly we all find that little something on occasion to reward ourselves.  Me, I go for weekly massages ;-)

This is a business, despite the many who claim to do it for a hobby.  Those who look at it as a hobby and get upset because they have not earned enough to even buy content are quite frankly looking at it the wrong way.

Is some content overpriced, perhaps, but I've been around long enough to know that at one time it was even more highly priced.  Although that said I've never been accused of being overpriced.  I lowered my prices for awhile but I'm starting to put them back to where they were.

As for what I pay Rendo,  well to be honest my earnings at Rendo are so far below my own radar I don't pay attention to themheh (and probably Rendo doesn't either), but I will say that despite what I earn here I actually do this as my full time job and it does and has paid the bills  when Hubby's work is slow among other things. I can also tell you that the  costs of running my website are probably equal to or greater than what I have paid Rendo in their split for the past year because I've actually licensed all the software I use, paid for a variety of modifications including custom coding, promotional costs and I hire a coding genius to occasionally go over the site with a fine tooth comb for any issues that might pop up.  So I think that gives me a different perspective in regards to pricing because this is a job for me, one that I do about 10 - 12 hours a day and usually 7 days a week.

First off, I don't get the hobbyist argument for low prices (or as many reselling hobbyists claim to be their right, for free merchandise).  Not at all.  I guess a lot of people won't be doing their hobby for a while, but then it's not their meat and potatoes or health care at risk after all.

Every hobby I've had required me to pay for the cost of the materials and learning I needed to do the hobby:  needlework (quite costly for supplies), any artistic hobby, building miniatures (same), off road biking, dogs, scrapbooking, computers, cooking, sewing - you name it.  There are many huge industries built on manufacturing and marketing stuff for hobbies.  It seems that only with graphics hobbies has there arisen this bizarre idea that everything should be free or very cheap for the special category of hobbyists.  I have never made any distinction in my prices or usage terms between professional designers and hobbyists who buy my work and I have a steady, long clientele in both the hobbyist and commercial use buyers.  I make a modest living at what I do and it has gone up, increasing still this year, albeit not as much as last year. 

I also do not spend money on Poser products to "play with" any more, LOL.  Rather than raise my prices, I have curbed my own spending on useless stuff that will sit around on my hard drive forever and from which I can't make any money myself.  I spend money only on the most useful and valuable tools and services I need in my business.   The Poser market is glutted with duplications and knock offs and built in obsolescence and clumsy products competing with space with really great products.  I haven't bought a Poser product for almost 6 months and I find that I don't even miss it.  The time I might have squandered on Poser products went into building digital painting skills and dreaming up better products of my own and my monthly income from 2d products has increased this year.  I haven't felt a pinch yet, although that's not to say that I won't suffer income reduction during our oncoming economic tsunami.  I imagine I will because I've had many flatt-ass broke times in my life.  But some people will weather this storm and it won't be by producing more of the same old same old and being at the mercy of the big brokerages who don't give a damn about them.  Maintaining and building my own personal site traffic and taking personal care of my customers is a better way of spending my hours than playing with Poser dollies.  If I have to work harder, it's produced a better outcome.  I've always been on this trajectory anyway.  Hobby?  I do not have hobbies.  I have burning passions and goals and I'm perfectly willing to constantly change and raise my game in order to cultivate them and make a living.

Everybody will have to improve to stay in any game.  That's a given.  But that doesn't mean that I will benefit by selling my work dirt cheap or raising the prices either.  There's middle ground.

I do my best to insure a wide range of the highest quality, unique products with high value for a moderate price and frequent structured discounts.  I can't do better with lower prices.  But I CAN do better in terms of quality and appeal.  This economy will surely see a dramatic change in the buying patterns of the public, just as there will be a similar change in the producers in every area.  Some producers and some buyers are going to fall out of the buying cycle.  And some will get better at what they do.  I plan to be in the category of those that get better no matter what. I don't need to get rich, I just need to make money to survive and get better at my craft.

Frankly, there's a hugely bloated marketplace with tons of stuff in it that very few people will buy or even give a second glance.  Just a trip through the mall (which I can tolerate for only the occasional hour) makes me wonder who's going to buy all this crap?  Not me, that's for sure.  99% of it wouldn't add a titch to the quality of my life.  Maybe . . .people will wise up and begin to buy only what really adds to their lives?  Tons of "hobbyists" got into the image resource business on a shoestring and don't yet have the skills and experience to weather a big pinch like the one we're facing.  If you can't produce yourself out of the mountains of crap through compelling prodicts with high qualtiy, an economic downturn means you gotta do something else. A lot of people are going to stop buying stuff they don't really need and a lot of people are not going to be able to continue to flood the market with knock offs and products that aren't worth their price.  For sure that's the grass roots free market at work.  I only have to make sure that my products are worth every penny.  Then I'll get the pennies.

I'm in this for the long haul and my goal is just to keep coming up with something enough people will want to buy . . .no matter what.  I'm giving great value already but the thing that will go up for me in this crunch is the quality and appeal of the products, not the prices.  My prices are not going way down either.  If I find fewer customers, I'll suck it up and just make something even more compelling next week.  And the week after that.  And when the economy changes again, as it surely will, I'll emerge with a whole lot more skill than I have today.  Meanwhile, I gain by spending less on stuff I don't even miss.

That's my answer to the spiralling price pressure in both directions:  I KNOW my products are going to get better, the prices aren't moving much in either direction.

Having been a frequent customer of Dana's (albeit under another name to the one I use here). I whole heartedly agree with 99% of what Dana has said. From the outset, when I started this thread I have always maintained that quality will always win through. What my main concern is however is that the lower quality items or "crap" for want of a better word that we all know exist are beginning to get priced at the same level as the quality items. My fear is that in order to keep a respectable differential between the two the quality output vendors will increase their prices rather than the lower quality vendors reducing theirs. In other words everything goes up at a time when the majority of buyers can least afford it. It's a knock on effect we've all seen this year. One utility company puts it's prices up and within a few day's all the others have also. And the end result is we ALL end up paying more as there are no clear alternatives.

There is one aspect of Dana's post that I do disagree with though and thats when it comes to hobby buyers. In times of depression everyone has to cut their cloth according to it's width. A golfer may play one less round a week to save money. Soccer fans might not travel to as many away games as they normally would  etc, etc. The effect is that less product gets sold. Thats what happens in a recession. Thats why we're seeing pre Christmas sales now to try and induce people to spend. Why some graphics vendors seem to think they can buck the trend or that they're immune to recession I'm not sure. But I for one know that I'm spending less and making more concious decisions where I spend my money and on what I spend it. If graphics vendors thing the majority of buyers are still going to get out their credit cards and buy on a whim the way they used too then I think their in for a rude awakening. In my business I have brought in inducements to keep the work coming in. These range from price discounts to giving my clients the opportunity to pay monthly instead of the normal payment upon completion terms.

All I'm asking is that prices remain realsitic (not static) in comparison to the items on sale and that merchants resist the temptation to up their prices in an attempt to make good any short fall in sales. And just as the stores on the High Street have realised " a little inducement can keep the wheels of industry turning", even during the worst of times.

Drakmanover . . .thanks for your customer loyalty, first of all.

But I do assume that  people will buy less, that's why I work harder, LOL.

And I fully admit that I know many "hobbyist" customers will not be able to afford to buy from me, even though they might have managed to fit me in their budget in the past.  But I am sticking with my own formula of modest prices and high quality and high usability . . .and completely accept that some people may not be able to afford my work, because I never intend to make it dirt cheap or free.

The last thing I want is for someone who can't pay their bills to spend their rent and food money on graphics.  I'd NEVER recommend that. 

Now c'mon Drakmanover . . .who are you really?

 Also . . .just between you and me . . .there are even greater pressures among the merchants to lower prices than there are to raise them.  We are being squeezed by colleagues and brokerages in both directions at the same time.  It's a rare person who has the confidence to resist all this pressure and keep from zigging and zagging in their prices.  Some Vendors probably assume that the hobby buyers are going to  drop out of their customer pool and that's fine with them, they are aiming their products profiles at professional designers who are used to paying higher prices elsewhere.  And lots of brokerages just feed a constant downward spiral in prices and in terms of giveaways that morally and economically force other Vendors down in price (not me, hahaha!).  I see prices going down as much as they go up.  It's like a chaotic storm I do my best to resist.  Honestly, My prices haven't changed in a very long time and I do not plan to change my pricing formula.  I think I was clear about that.

 I'm sure a lot of hobbyists are not going to be doing their hobbies in the same way.  Low income buyers are probably not going to represent as high a percentage of the market niches as they have in the past.  And I plan accordingly.

Dana

I was'nt including you in my observations. Indeed I'd used you as an example in an earlier post as to how good product, pricing and marketing can achieve great results (I hope you did'nt mind by the way). I only wish more would follow your example. But thanks to this thread I've found Lucie's site and I'll be buying some of her products for the first time shortly.

If your serious about wanting to know my true identity then PM me. But don't you like the cloak and dagger illusion of not knowing who your actually talking too. I know I do, LOL.

***Drakmanover:  But don't you like the cloak and dagger illusion of not knowing who your actually talking too. I know I do, LOL.

No, LOL!  I'm a big fan of complete transparency.  I'm in the 99% percentile of directness.  I have no place to hide even if I wanted to, but generally I like to get to the bottom of every mystery and confusion as fast as possible.  But instead of me PMing you, why don't you just write me and do the big reveal?  Although I might guess from your verbal style.

Yes, Lucie is a good bet.

I'm really a supporter of Vendors cultivating their own stores, even if they depend on brokerages.  I like to see the independence of the individual designer/artist preserved.  If for no other reason than it teaches us how to run the business and gives us an alternative so that we don't feel totally at the mercy of other people's choices which might not be in our best interest.  At the very least, I know what the cost of doing business is and I know what I'm paying for and whether I'm getting my money's worth for the marketing.

I wasn't taking anything you said personally, I am essentially in agreement but . . .clarifying a few wrinkles.

Hey!  I can  pay a round now, so long as you don't go for the expensive stuff like pricey champagne...  ;)

I'm the total opposite I'm afraid. I find that if your fairly annonymous then you can freely join in any conversation without any pre conceived knowledge or hang ups you might have if you knew in more detail who you were in conversation with. I kinda liken it to the "talking to the President theory". If you met him in the Whitehouse you'd be on your best behaviour and likely only converse in pleasantry's. Whereas online and annonymous you say what you actually think without inhibition. So when I say I think the President is an "ass" for all I know it may well be the President I'm talking too. I like the thought of that, LOL.

Drakmanover . . .Are you Joe?  Michael?  Ralph from the UK?

Jose from Brazil?

Chanpagne?.

Nah, mines a Bud, thanks.

You got the country right at least.

Keep guessing!, LOL

(Clue)
I once e-mailed you to let you know about a security matter.

***Drakmanover:  Whereas online and annonymous you say what you actually think without inhibition

***Uh . . .I already do that.  I started doing that in the womb, ha! 
Now see, if I were talking to the President, I'd be SURE to say exactly what's on my mind, especially if I were saying he is an ass.  I would say the same thing to the President as I would say to anybody else.  I'm extra especially uninhibited with authority figures. It sorta doesn't matter to me who I'm talking to, I've got the same content.

Of course this is also why I barely survived childhood.  ***

***Drakmanover:  I once e-mailed you to let you know about a security matter.

***Alas, that puts you among hundreds of choices.

Oh good!  We'll get along!  lol

Dana, that's one of the many things I like about you, you speak your mind as directly as an arrow,  some people may not appreciate that trait but that's probably cause they don't always like having the truth...  And then they'll complain there's too much hypocrisy...  Go figure...  ;)

I'm enjoying this so lets see if I can help narrow it down.

(clue-2)
The security concern was to do with possible access to files on your web site.

Does that help?

I'm sorry, I don't like guessing games.  In fact, I positively hate them.  While I might figure it out by look back in my email, and while I vaguely recall what you refer to, the effort of guessing is not enjoyable to me.  You'll just have to remain incognito.

Just the way I prefer it.

Bet you hate charades, LOL

Anyway if I don't speak to you again beforehand.

Have a Great Christmas & A Happy & (hopefully) Prosperous New Year.

And the same goes to you Lucie also.

Bye!

And the proof that Prices were overly inflated is now quite evident in the gas prices that have dropped from $4 a gallon here in the midwest down to around $1.60 a gallon!

If you think $4 a gallon was overly inflated what do you think of the price in the UK?. We have just seen our prices drop from around  $2.25 a LITRE (approx) $9 per gallon. So now at (approx) $4.60 per gallon we are still paying more than you were in the States at the height of the fuel crisis. Even though we have our own North Sea oil and gas our government has never allowed it's citizens any price benefits or subsidies for our own resources. Our heating gas and electricity prices went up by almost 30% this year and they have'nt come back down at all even though the wholesale price of natural gas has come back down just as the oil price has. For every $1.50 taken at the gas pump the UK government takes $1 in TAX.
In the UK virtually everything is taxed beyond reason. And now because of climate change our politicians are rubbing their hands in glee at the thought of slamming us for GREEN TAXES!.

I think it's only a matter of time before they introduce a breathing tax over here, LOL.