As most of you know, I have been a member there at Renderosity for a long long time. During my tenure as a moderator, I had the privelege to help shape the direction of this site and this forum. Also during the time I have been a member here, I have seen a fair amount of dumb things done that were (shall we say) questionable. However today I came across the what IMHO is the lamest idea I have seen here ever.

On the front page of the site is a link to the Cover Contest for the next issue of the Renderosity Magazine. When I saw this, I got all excited as I truly enjoy entering these contests. Maybe I am stupid, but I truly believe that someday maybe someone from the photography forum will actually win this contest and have their work published for the world to see. (like I said... Maybe I am stupid)

Well I followed the link, and when I got there and read the requirements for the current contest I almost fell out of my chair. I cannot believe that on a site with as many members/artists as Renderosity supposedly has, that they are actually requiring that anyone interested in entering this contest has to incorporate the stock art the are providing into the image.

Personally I find this offensive, and believe it is a cheap way for some people who would not otherwise qualify to have their artwork on the cover to get exposure. I will not name any names as I have no proof and I do not intend to offend anyone, but most of what I see as the "required" images has a very familiar look to them.

I realize that entering this contest is something that people do by choice, and that the people running the contest can do whatever they please, but telling an artist what they have to use for art is about as lame as it comes. I know that even though I have entered each contest up till now, I will not be participating this time around.

I hope that in the future the people responsible for this decision will actually go back to letting artists create their own work without such ridiculous requirements.

There I am done venting. I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings, and we now return you to your regularly scheduled brainwashing...

People might start calling us 'Dumb and Dumber', cause sometime ago there was a R'osity convention contest and I was pretty annoyed with the 8 final choices. Not cause mine wasn't among them, but because all were Poser-ish Fantasy related.....and while that's probably the taste of half the world out there, it certainly isn't the only thing that's going on on this awesome site. In fact, from that moment on (although not on purpose) I haven't posted any work in the galleries anymore and I lost all interest in joining the (non-forum) contest....I still don't actually. Like you said in so many words, I too really strongly believe that both the photography and the graphic/2d forums have got a lot of fantastic artists running around with all blessed with a great deal of talent and some even more than 'just a great deal'. And eventhough this great site is originally 3d related, I find the 3d community on this site to be not even a 'dull shadow' of the supportive, friendly and interesting atmosphere I always find on this this and the 2d related forums. (With this forum probably being the best of all imo!) So why some people obviously give such an unfair advantage to all this 'awesome-but-a-lot-of-the-same' kind of Poser-ish work, no matter how high the standards are, is completely beyond me. And there's more I want to say, about the fact why anyone who's worked with 3ds max or lightwave will laugh at the use of Poser, Bryce, Vue d'Esprit, etc. But I won't. All I'll say it that at least the photo and 2d work on this site are truly 100% original and incredibly inspiring.

the work was done largely, if not entirely by three people. Kzarah, firefly, and Audre. Yup, Im naming names, its the darn file name of each for cryin out loud! Kzarah's work is cool, but i dunno, never been one for fractals personally. anyways, if these people need to have their work required on the cover of the magazine, it likely means they're desperate for some exposure which they may not have been able to earn by a more honest means... in regards to the fact that they give no choice. I must agree. This is fucking lame.

incidently, it was prolly around that same time rork that I annihalted my gallery. heh. Maybe more will follow seeing as the Audre the administrator is using whatever muscle she has to get her work on the cover of a magazine. yup, the whole thing really is fucking lame.

check out this rule -Photographs qualify if they have been taken with a digital camera and/or manipulated using digital techniques of any type. well, I guess that rules any film camera out. and what the hell does "digital techniques" mean? the two words in conjunction really make no sense at all. f'in lame

Fractals.....that's no art, that's sience. Photographs....rather an old fashioned word for someone who only does digital. I guess there are two kinds of art lovers: those who go to musea and those who watch Bob Ross on tv.

What is shows is ignorance... After all, any photograph that has been scanned is immediately a digital image, and any color corrections, curve alterations, level adjustments, or other basic image corrections done to a scan are technically digital manipulations. IMO... it is a lot of fluff that appears to be saying we are not interested in photographs, but we will accept them as entries if we have to.

Who the hell is Bob Ross? Sorry I don't own a television. Just a computer, three cameras, a darkroom, some oils and other art supplies.

Hey, I like Bob Ross! And the "Happy little road" guy. Back in 3rd grade my favorite show was that other guy, (Jon Nagy?). No, it is not great art, and yes, it is sad that for some it is the only thing they are exposed to. Is it OK to watch TV AND go to museums? ;-/ And I like Norm too, though "Fine Woodworking" pooh-pooh's him.

Well, I have an asshole and I have opinons...everyone knows the saying...grin. So, I'll play the devil's advocate a bit. I haven't read the requirements...I never have as it is just one of those contests that require more skill than I have along with a few friends to vote for you. Apparently, there is a pecking order here. As said above, the site was largly founded on the 3D idea. Poser, I suppose. So, it's natural people would tend to look at the photo forum/gallery and "snub" their noses a bit. I kinda expect it. After all, as a guy who dabbles in Poser, I see LOTS of discussions on "just what is art". And, Poser has some sort of reputation of being a "soft porn" generation app. That's a shame, too. As to Vue, there are some incredible works in it. Linda White's stuff comes immediately to mind and the last time I looked, the image at the top of the Vue Hot 20 looked like a photograph. But, I guess LW and C3D users will look down on them. I think it might just be the way of the artist world. Fractals? I dunno. Some are beautiful. Some, I would like to see on my walls in my home. In a world where a piece of excrement can win an art prize in the UK, I guess we should assume ANYTHING that captures people's interest should be considered art. Why is R'City doing this for the next cover? I don't know. I know they have a business to run and they may have a reason we aren't aware of for why they put the stipulations in place that they did. It's their business and their livlihood. Either it will be a success or it will not. If not, I suspect they will learn. Regardless, it doesn't take away from the talent I see here in this forum/gallery. Talent I wished I had. Talent that is being put to use and money being made from. So, I'd be upset, I guess, if I was a really good photographer and had something I thought worthwhile to offer the mag...but I console myself knowing why this site is really here. Just my Ilford's worth.

http://www.bobross.com/ - the most boring, repetitive and uninteresting artist ever to have lived. But anyway, "the sponsors are 3D vendors" Like Photo and Graphic/2d work is no longer of interest in the real world. So I guess the only reason behind all this is just a financial story - the Poser (and equals) group just delivers the best selling vendors. That's all. Shame, I guess I'm on the wrong site afterall....cause I thought that this site was a "Online Graphic Artist's Community" (see logo) There's nothing wrong with Poser or fractals, but my girlfriend is very good at doing creative and enjoyable things too, but that doesn't mean it deserves a prominent place at a graphic artist's community. (although the pictures would probably get a lot of votes ;) @Misha, love that last line....good point =)

PS I was just joking about Bob Ross, but it's just that those mountain-trees-lake paintings remind me of some of the work I see in the 3d galleries ;)

of course, photography is no longer in demand anymore for anything, and 2 dimensional art, layouts, illustrations, etc, aren't in demand either. I mean, ever since Bryce came out, all you see in the art and commercial world is generated landscapes... heh heh mother fucking lame

thanks Chuck :) I was starting to get worked up till you smoothed me right out again... or maybe that was the wine... :~*

"anyone who's worked with 3ds max or lightwave will laugh at the use of Poser, Bryce, Vue d'Esprit, etc" (slightly misquoting rork, i know, but its short, ok? :) ) - maybe true to a certain extent. i myself use lightwave, but i think that most pro 3d apps users recognise 3d art from any app, but have isues with the concept of poser, in that so little effort has to be put in to achieve the final image. if any of you have done tradional art, it comes across a bit like a ready made. (that wont mean much to some of you, so ignore it). i do have a problem with the way that the entire front page seems to be devoted to poser. while i recognise that there are a lot of poser users on this site, i have never seen a front page that reflecs the diversity of the content. i myself for several years avioded this site under the impression that it was almost entirely poser focused. contests like this only serve to strengthen the missimpressions, and i really think that more impartial people should be chosen in future.

Not sure, but the cover on the front of issue two (?). Well, at any rate, the one with the big sivler face thingie on it. I think that was photo + photoshop...seems like I remember reading from the author that no 3D stuff was used. Sooo...if my memory is correct, that would mean something. (I'm not home right now, so can't check it out)

Hmmm...I didn't see the bit about digital camera/traditional camera in the rules...I'm going to feedback in the moderators forum about that one...I'm not real impressed with that...
But as for the rest, well...sorry people, but I for one was interested in the competition...and the first thought that jumped into my mind was incorporating one of the images into a photograph. Let's not forget that our imaginations and talent can overcome any perceived obstacle of genre, program application bias ~ or whatever "lame" excuses we can find not to have a go...so have a go and show this site what photographers can do!!
:-)>

"The seed image can be used anywhere, anyhow, and in any way you can imagine! Use it for a texture, a backdrop, a prop, a transparency chanel, bump map even -- the possibilities are endless and limited only by your own creativity." ~ ok this is from the contest page...so go with that spirit. Fred, with all due respect, I am going to disagree with you here: "it is a cheap way for some people who would not otherwise qualify to have their artwork on the cover to get exposure" The rules also allow you to change the seed image beyond recognition so long as you can show progression from the original. Personally I don't think there is a conscious intention to promote anyones artwork anywhere, it is just an idea for a conpetition for god sakes, not a bloody conspiracy theory. Ok, I think I've said enough...hops off his soapbox

Two things, and then I am out of this...

One: Obviously I was all together wrong in my thinking. I am sure now that the people who provided these images have absolutely no interest in seeing their artwork on the cover of the magzine, and that they fully expect the vast majority of entrants will change the images they choose to work with beyond recognition.

Two: Despite my decision not to participate, I would certainly encourage anyone and everyone else to. I would love to see someone from this forum create something that would get the cover. There is a lot of talent here and I can think of nothing that would make me happier.

"I was all together wrong in my thinking" I never said that, you may be right. After all, I am often wrong, just ask my wife. I was merely stating an alternate opinion. As for your last point, that is exactly what I was trying to say ~ to repeat myself: "Let's not forget that our imaginations and talent can overcome any perceived obstacle of genre, program application bias ~ or whatever "lame" excuses we can find not to have a go...so have a go and show this site what photographers can do!!" Lastly, I sincerely apologise to you personally Fred if you have taken my opinion as a personal attack on your beliefs about this isssue, I never meant that, I am just trying to see the issue from a different side. I respect your opinion more than anyone else I know here at this site and I truly mean that. I believe there is an imbalance at Renderosity, and nothing would make me happier if Photography was recognised and given more of a chance here than it seems to have. I will personally do my best to help correct that imbalance too. Peace. :-)>

No need to apologize PC... I know you are a stand up person, and that you are sincere in your thoughts and views. Maybe I am just too much of a cynic... :-)

they only want you when yer seventeen, when yer twentyone, yer no fun they take a polaroid and let you go, say they'll let you know, so come on...

Per my message above (and after a bit of research) Cover 3 was largely a 2D effort (and I suppose a photograph from somewhere)...here are the author's words: "This was created in Photoshop and not a 3D program, so it may not be what you are looking for, but I tried it with the cover template and it seemed to go with it pretty well." So, while it may look a bit like a 3D item, I'm going to take the author at his word. This means Poser is NOT the "cure-all" for mag covers. I DID scan the contest thingie a bit and IMHO (and I certainly could be wrong), the requirement to use the fractal is probably a way to include the "factal people" in the "fray" a bit. Just my Kodachrome's worth.

to date, this site hasn't been dedicated to 'hard' mediums such as oil painting and/or watercolors. i definitely put traditional photography in that very catagory -- it can and does, exist without the use of computers -- which is where i tend to group it. so in that respect, i suppose i've been guilty as charged of discriminating against traditional media for my votes for the magazine cover. HOWEVER, after reading the thread, and getting beyond the personal grudges and angst, i do see a valid concern. as a result i am going to issue a formal apology and strike the photography clause from the contest rules altogether. as a hobbyist photographer myself, i really do not see ANYTHING wrong with photography, or oils, or acrylics for that matter... and do see that there is a sprinkling of traditional media images, scanned in and posted in the galleries. however, historically speaking, the point of Renderosity has been stuff that deals with computers foremost. and 'stuff' in which the computer is a bit more than just the viewing medium. after reading the thread it occurred to me that you folks are absolutely correct in that the TOS does not preclude any other mediums -- it sais 'graphic artists' which does imply all forms. perhaps there ought to be some other galleries added to Renderosity then? Oil and Watercolor, Acrylic? might this help alter the mindset of the community toward such mediums? it would certainly be an option in an effort to welcome art of all mediums here at Renderosity. and it might have helped me see sooner that i was wrong in my evalution of the various, other mediums. that being said... i did want to point out that the very nature of this particular contest makes this particular discussion moot... since the contest requires that one of the seed images be utilized in some way. being that the seed images are 100% digital, by using them, no matter what you do, your image qualifies -- even if it IS taking a photo of the computer screen which is displaying a seed image and scanning that photo in with NO postwork whatsoever. as far as it being totally lame for the magazine staff to have supplied the seeds -- i am not surprised no one caught the flip side in the rush to throw stones and grind personal axes -- the copyright implications -- asking another artist to donate their work, and then give everyone else the rights to dissect and otherwise mangle it beyond recognition was someplace the magazine team was very uncomfortable going. we felt that asking someone to give up their copyright even for this instance was too much to ask. our original idea was to use the previous 4 covers, and make the theme "On the Shoulders of Our Forefathers" but we felt that asking those previous cover artists would cause a backlash with major flames about how much we disregard and want to "use" the members and create more turmoil. in the end, we felt it safer to obtain the cannon fodder from within, that way there would never be any question or discussion of any disregard for artist copyrights arising as the result of the contest parameters. from that, we migrated toward the contest forum and came up with the seed image idea. as for being a cheap way for us lame artists to get exposure... as one of the founders, and editor in chief, i would have to guess i am getting plenty of cheap exposure without having to have any artwork in the magazine ... kzarah was featured in issue 1 with an article showcasing his amazing work -- it was actually that article which lead to him joining the magazine team -- so he's already had his dose of cheap exposure. and firefly, well, on her behalf i have to say, that's a thoughtless and mean-spirited remark which while aimed at me, ends up affecting her the most. she's a wonderfully generous and caring person who created those textures/patterns with the best intentions and in the spirit of sharing and is most undeserving of your comments. getting back to the cover contest, the spirit of the whole thing is about being creative and finding inspiration in the strangest places. viewed in another way, this is an excersize which can help prepare someone for the commerical market, where an artist often has to work with 'seeds' handed them by the client and incorporate them into the final product. it's about taking something that's not yours, embracing it, and turning it into something which is. finding inspiration in anything. finally, feel free to flame away at me all you like ... i know that every thing we do in a public forum is subject to all kinds of scruitiny and while we do the best we can with what we have in the time constraints given to us, there are things which do get overlooked or not reasoned all the way through. so what seemed like a good idea at the time, may look totally stupid when reviewed later. so, on the issue of the photography rule, let it be duly noted that we were found totally lame and stand humbly corrected. i also wish to remind folks that anyone with ideas for future contests is welcome to suggest them and better still, be proactive in helping set the course by joining the team. thanks for bringing this to our attention. audre

contest forum err i meant Challenge Arena Forum

"finally, feel free to flame away at me all you like" will do ma'am

"the possibilities are endless & limited only by your..." well, you can fill in that sentence with something to your liking and- audre gets an "atta girl!" & a pat on the back from me :)

People might start calling us 'Dumb and Dumber', cause >sometime ago there was a R'osity convention contest and I >was pretty annoyed with the 8 final choices. Not cause >mine wasn't among them, but because all were Poser-ish >Fantasy related.....and while that's probably the taste of >half the world out there, it certainly isn't the only >thing that's going on on this awesome site. also, forgot to mention that the theme for that convention contest WAS related completely to fantasy. the quote from the rules is as follows: "The theme for the poster is anything in the Science-Fiction, Fantasy, Horror, or Space Art category (in keeping with Dragon*Con's stated genres). No Fan Art Please... you must use original characters. So, go ahead and dust off your mouse and get to work creating that piece of art that will become part of history!" just setting the record straight on that count. thanks

Okay, seems to me that things are straightened out now-- (thanks audre for the time, the reply, and the action taken)-- So I hope you guys don't mind that I shut the door on this one. :-) (*