Cheryle my point there was (and forgive me if it wasn't clear) that were any of you up for AOY? If not then this doesn't really concern the other how ever many that WERENT in the running. Blackhearted made a point, a good one. Things this big are best left to the admin, less chance of it being tainted. It was an honest mistake that it was put up for public voting. Mistakes get made. As for whom ever asked what I have to gain by sticking up for the admins ... nothing. And I wasnt. It was truth, not defense. So please dont imply things that you have no founded truth in. Thanks and appreciated :) Cheers Gina

" that were any of you up for AOY?" No but i voted for AOY. And now there is a vote up for AOM- so- if none of this concerns us as members then why do they keep putting these things up as contests and votes? You've read at least this thread- not sure if you waded thru the previous ones, but you have read enough to know that is isn't just this one. If there is any it's no one's business here- to me from seeing what is going on here- i would have to say this place has no business running contest- they just can't get it right.

Gina, Can't speak for everyone here, but I don't think the big concern is that contest winners are "on the take". Any more than I think asking your friends to vote for you is "rigging" a contest. However, there have been more than enough questionable circumstances surrounding too many contests here not to raise big red flags. It may be as simple as incompetence, but it is a serious problem and needs to be addressed to make things fair for ALL the members. If people just keep quiet about it, it never will be. rosity's incompetence on this particular one took away the ability of all the AOM's to consider this a fair and untainted award. Any one of the AOM's deserved to win AOY. But because of the circumstances surrounding this award now, nobody will ever know if Toxic Angel won because he was considered the best artist of the lot or because he was considered by the administration to be the most politically correct. That's a shame. And I am not trying to take away from Toxic Angel's talent one bit here. He and all the rest are all very talented and choosing one is subjective at best. Too bad the whole thing is totally FUBAR.

Well said Diane!

Longest, S thanks dont mind if I do. ``Well that's part of it but not all of it- in the past they have offered a week hotel stay at siggraph, free entrance into siggraph and promoted the AOY. They also are now branching into a magazine who's distribution area is growing. They are trying to become bigger, more professional. Which is why they need to address these issues. For their own sake as well as for the sake of the members.`` Rosity wont be at that level until they can become professional and right now that is doubtful. Right now they are a store. With forums. That is their focus. If they want to be a showcase for talent then they have to restructure and reorginize and concentrate on the end product not the in between. Until they do that they cannot become a means to affect the 3d World. they will simply be a massive forum website with bickering and sitewars.

"so I figure I can add my two cents .. the logical 2 cents that is." Sure thing. When you scrape up two logical cents, toss em into the pot. ;] shrug I'm not a part of any "crew". While I have been a subgenius, hey - I voted for HobbyHopper. I like Doc, but I do as I please... and he tends to respect that. As far as part of the crowd.... Mosca and I don't particularly like each other, I don't think. He'll probably be the first to say that he considers me an arrogant prick sometimes. Wah. We don't have to be best buds for me to recognise when he is right on something and to say that I agree with him. He doesn't have to like me to agree with me on occassion, as he's done in the past. He's right on this one. Maybe not in all particulars, but in that the way it was handled screwed all of the artists involved, that he's correct on. I kind of like Cheryle, but she and I have dissagreed on things on occassion. Wah. No biggie. Like/dislike doesn't have a damned thing to do with it - we both tend to speak our minds wether it's liked or not. I agree with her views on this one also: It is our business, as members. If a trend of contests always being run for foul continues, then no contest on this site will ever be trustworthy. It may be too late for that as it is. And before anyone gets into an uproar and lumps me into the "but you're one of them, of course you agree!" category... I've backed the admins here before also when I though they were right on something too. And I've done it when it didn't make me real freaking popular, and when it put me toe to toe with Legume or Kammerer or other people. Tammy, Tim, ClintH, JeffH and a few others will remember those times also. ;] shrug again This isn't right, this isn't working. And it doesn't matter a flying rats ass that Legume got screwed - everyone in that contest got the shaft, even the winner(s). Legume possibly got shafted out of a win by the sudden change in rules in midstream - NOT a given, the voting was close, and Toxic probably would have won on merits. Toxic got his winning tarnished through NO fault of his own. Period. Through no fault of his own. And anyone winning would have had it tarnished by that, no matter who. Even if Legume had won, there'd be people in here now questioning if the admins fixed it FOR him, not again him. And as long as this continues, every contest is going to have some taint, no matter who wins it. It's been blown up in proportion, not out of it, whoever made that observation. "grow the fuck up, and go congratulate janne for his win, hes a great guy and i pray he doesnt see this thread because it would upset him quite a bit. " And ditto again on the shrug Gabriel. I like Toxic. Janne is a pretty nice guy, and one hell of an artist. He is one hell of a lot more talented than I am. Or than you are, for that matter. ;] But Janne's a big boy. If he runs across this thread, he runs across it. Wah. If it makes him feel bad, I'll feel bad. But we'll both get over it. I do not believe that he can get to that level of talent without having a pretty good sense of his own abilities. I doubt seriously that reading through this would crush his abilities or faith in them any more than it would mine or yours, Gabriel. You get that kind of talented by being at least a bit sure of yourself - don't cheapen Janne by implying he's too fragile to deal with this. ;] "- im getting sick of them." And we care what you're sick of because... ??? ;] "It's a shame, because I think if my name were bigger here, and I posted the same things, I wouldn't be treated with the same lack of respect." Nah Spectre. Blackhearted is a "big name", and it don't make him immune. Big name, little name, that's got nuffin to do with it. Sorry Gabe. Wanted to make a point to Spectre and used you to do it. Nuthin personal, old bean. ;]

Honestly Ironbear I agreed with almost everything you said...I have been trying to say all along that I didn't like the way the poll was handled but I know that my other opinions have caused people to believe that I felt otherwise. I'll admit that I don't really care for Legume's work, actually to be completely specific, there was one piece of art he did that absolutely pissed me off and that changed my whole perspective on all of it..until that point I didn't really care. You can make the arguement that he has the right to make whatever he wants(which I agree with, BTW) but if he reserves that right then I equally have the right to feel offended by it if it offends me. You can also argue that the ability to really piss someone off with his work makes him a better artist and perhaps more deserving of the title which in some respects is probably true but that still doesn't change anything from where I am. After that image and the entire sequence of events that followed in the community I started looking for the negative and I don't think there is really anything that can change my mind about it, even now, although I did try to force myself to look at his work with a more open mind a few times(BTW, the pinup series looked really sad, and i don't mean the technique of it, they just all gave me the impression that he was groveling for sympathy somehow and always made me feel sorry for him every time I looked at one of them). But cheating is wrong and you cannot honestly say that Legume and the AOM following Legume didn't get their titles without some degree of cheating and I'm not talking about "self-promotion" either. If you know you weren't part of it, then you know my comments weren't directed at you. But if someone does cheat in any way to earn the artist of the month title, they will not get any sympathy from me if they start saying they were discriminated against by the admins in the final vote....the truth is, if they had to cheat on even the most minor level, then they do not deserve to be at that point anyway. Anyway, now my biggest objection at this point has been that people are still questioning the decision even after the winner was announced...that is just simply not fair to the person who got that award, even if it had been another artist(even Legume) I would still feel the same way about this.. Sorcha

Hey, Doc pisses me off on occassion also. ;] That's the intent. A lot of people seem to operate under the misapprehension that the imagery is Legume's work - it's not. Legume's Art is to fuck with people's heads, as we called it when I was growing up. That's a crude way of putting it, but it's descriptive. If I don't care to be pissed off, I disconnect the buttons. ;] And like him, hate his guts, don't care either way, it's hard to deny that he is damned good at it. The art is to shake up people's world view, jolt someone's way of looking at things, reach inside their heads and find the buttons and get a reaction. Just as the "art" of a bard is to use words to jolt a reaction, or craft an image with words and emotion. That takes a degree of empathy with the viewer that's frightening. You have to be able to figure out what you're trying to evoke, and crawl inside someone's head to make it wok. Do I consider it an art form? Yup. Do I consider it an art form that the AOM/AOY on a graphic arts site is designed to highlight... ? Ummm... I'm dubious, so I voted on someone whose technical graphics skills I like and appreciate. If it were a different contest where the focus was purely the ability to evoke a reaction by whatever medium - I might have voted the other way. Who knows? It wasn't and I didn't. *********************************** What I said wasn't aimed at you particularly either, Lynne. There's been a lot of people who've voiced the same message, along with "Oh suck it up and quit bitching", and "It's the way it is, deal with it", and others. That part was kind of a thread wide sentance. A "to whom it may concern", not person specific. Ah well. It's not the one with your name on it ya gotta watch out for - it's the one addresssed to to whom it may concern, I guess. ;] ****************************** I can't speak for anyone else. I'm not questioning the decision. I'm questioning the way that it was reached, and the circumstances surrounding it. And to be real honest, I have a little of Legume in me - I'm having a bit of fun just watching the fuss. ;]

you're right, it is art...and I don't disagree with that at all...but if that is the way you create you must be willing to deal with the reactions you evoke, even if sometimes they are a little stronger or not quite what you had intended...that's all...;) The one image in question pissed me off and for a time I did not look at his artwork after that, but at the time I clicked on that particular image in the gallery I was not expecting to be pissed off. I am not an advocate of censorship at all but if you make it a point to evoke strong reactions, be prepared for whatever they may be. In some cases, it may be to hate you or worse, to want to hurt you, or even in such a case as mine to be determined to never support anything you do... Anyway, I don't really want to say anything more about that, but I never agreed with having the poll taken down and right now I just think it's in poor taste to bring any more doubt upon the decision that was made(regardless of who was chosen)...but I guess everyone has a right to debate the circumstances for as long as they want..;) Sorcha

No... I can agree that it does become an excercise in futility at a certain point. ;] Heh heh. I do disagree on the nature of the conspiracy though: Could be the admins decided that there hadn't been a major controversy in awhile and interest was dropping off, so they created one. Controversy creates forum activity, gets people talking, and as the people likening it to a train wreck noted, train wrecks are fascinating, so it draws in crowds... and crowds eventually head to the concession stands as any good carney knows. And by damn it distracts people from picking on poor CuriousLabs. Hey - it's as plausible a conspiracy as any. ;]

"And by damn it distracts people from picking on poor CuriousLabs." AHA! i had forgotten about that! there yah go! it's working!!! ;D

"And by damn it distracts people from picking on poor CuriousLabs."

AHA! i had forgotten about that! there yah go! it's working!!!
;D

Not really, I picked on CuriousLabs just an hour ago.

Ratz. That blows pure hell out of a perfectly good theory. Thanks Yuri. ;]

Nothing wrong with the theory, 'bear. Maybe it just wasn't competently put into practice... ;-)

Attached Link: http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=Xns92EB6B88B1F56154563%40216.166.71.239

did you know that if you start at the top of this thread, and use a mouse scroller to go all the way down without stopping, the length of this thread coupled with the blurring and flashing of stuff flipping right by can possibly cause seizures in adolescent hermaphrodite monkies that were brought to conception through a surrogate Siamese Cat, providing of course said adolescent hermaphrodite monkie that were brought to conception through a surrogate Siamese Cats was seated next to you? it's true.

so I take it you have one? :D Sorcha

i think we should vote for "adolescent hermaphrodite monkies that were brought to conception through a surrogate Siamese Cat, providing of course said adolescent hermaphrodite monkie that were brought to conception through a surrogate Siamese Cats was seated next to you" for next months AOM just a thought or at least a new conspiracy ;D /e hides

"Mosca and I don't particularly like each other, I don't think. He'll probably be the first to say that he considers me an arrogant prick sometimes." And I imagine you figure I'm an obnoxious pain-in-the-ass. It's the nature of the internet, unfortunately--if you want to make a point it's hard to do it quietly. I have a feeling that, in person, with normal social rules in force and a bottle of Booker's on the table, we'd probably get along just fine.

More than likely.... or a bottle of Bookers for you and a big pot of strong coffee for me. ;] shrug Point was that wether we like or dislike each other, it doesn't really matter on either of us being able to recognise when the other has a valid point of view. Or when the other has a valid gripe. On some things like this, Like/Dislike, Friends/Not Friends, Bigname/Littlename, should be irrelevant to the discussion. Just like my being friends with Legume doesn't mean that I'll agree with everything he syas, or that he'd expect me to, eh? shrug I wouldn't hold that against you. Most of my real life friends can be obnoxiuos, opinionated pains in the ass. It makes them fun to talk to.

Well hell. God didn't intend for a man to drink Booker's alone.

Sorry. ;] I quit drinking in 1983. ;]

Good for you. I started in 1974.

LOL

I started in 1974 also. And drank straight through to 83. MAN! Talk about a hangover! ;]

well that's just for this one- there were others that were tainted in other ways - which brings us ( i think) back full circle to: Is there a way of this place running contests fairly. If so how and lets see if these suggestions in the other thread can be implimented. If not then maybe it's time to do away with contest- which would be a shame cause people like contests. It's also nice to see an artist elevated, but perhaps at this time it should be changed to "Renderosity's Administrative Choice Artist of the year"- And to me there is nothing wrong with that- after all, some businesses do have employee of the month, year etc etc so that would alleviate any laws being broken as far as contests go...the members would not get a choice but hey we don't have a choice now as it is. What would really be nice is some input from admin on this. All this pretty much covers this particular contest but what about the others that have been handled badly, not from the membership side but the admin side? ( photo contest swapping prize incident, emoticon incident, etc)

I just wanted to clarify so that it would not become an issue just about this years AOY only and the rest of the concerns would get lost in the shuffle. And yep i agree with your post totally.

"I would just as soon see the member vote discontinued and placed into the hands of a panel of judges." They had that at one point Illusions - The AOM Committee. And it seemed to be working pretty nicely. There's a statement in here [in one of these threads] from Tammy that "it was discontinued because it wasn't working", but no real clear explanation of why or how it wasn't working. Not that I saw, at least. Of course, you'll get objections on one count or another to an appointed panel of artists and members making the choices, but I think it's easy to see that there's nothing that can be suggested that won't have some objections. Still, it's practical and feasible. Only thing that might not make it feasible is if it were to turn out that there aren't enough members who really give a damn about AOM/AOY and other contests willing to serve on such a committee, in which case it might as well be adjudicated by the admins.

there would also have to be a way for the images to be uploaded anonymously- with no artist name on it- to prevent cries of " Admin pet" from surfacing.

shrug Having watched this for over two years now on every contest, the Hot20, and whatever, Cheryle... I think we're/they're going to get some kind of argument over whoever wins, no matter what methods are used. I'm not even going to quibble with the people that have been saying that all along. ;] Anonymous would help on contests, like the magazine covers, card contests, various software contests... but AOM is selected [currently] based on gallery examples. I don't see a way for anonimity of the artist to apply there. Hell... if the admin can't be trusted to administer contest rules fairly, and members can't refrain from abusing guidelines, might be better to just eliminate AOM/AOY entirely. I'll agree with Illusons this far, that there's been abuse of the system on both ends here.

Heh Heh. He said "quibble" Heh heh

Quibbles. Aren't they those little furry round things that go "greeeep!" from STarTrek the Origional Series? ;]

Yes,and they eventually evolved into what is now known as "Mr.Fluffers" 8 )~ Tom

Eeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!! "Stop quibbling dear, you'll go blind. And wash your hands afterwards." "Gee mom! How about if I just quibble til I'm nearsighted?" That's the problem with getting me into a discussion, Hawk - no matter how good an argument I make, I'm congenitally incapable o taking it seriously, so I'm easily derailed into inanities by people like you. Shame on you! ;]

Yeah. Or even without an award. There's nothing so innocuous that it can't cause a fuss. Heck, Poppi is stil convinced that Russel Cook conspired to keep her specifically out of the Hot20. ;]

"Cheryle, are you on the federal board of contests? Or the national contest committee? Unless you ARE on some sorta committee or board or other contest law enforcing thing, it doesnt matter to you." Thanks for this gem. I guess since I'm not part of an anti-rape task force or a counter-terrorism unit, those thing don't matter to me. Thanks for making my life a whole lot simpler, dipshit.

At least he didn't say "Dufflebag".

Dufflebag.

"Only thing that might not make it feasible is if it were to turn out that there aren't enough members who really give a damn about AOM/AOY and other contests willing to serve on such a committee, in which case it might as well be adjudicated by the admins." Hell, there really aren't enough members interested in VOTING in these things. That's why Legume could "abuse" the system the way he did. Anyone ever pay attention to exactly how many votes the images in the hot 20 get? Pitifully few. Truly, if that few people are interested in the Hot 20, AOM and AOY, why even have them?

and to go off on another totally seemingly unrelated but could be related tangent.... Hey! In the forums and the galleries, i often hear (read) of the mods of said forums saying they do not have time to look at each picture or get to the galleries or to moniter the boards constantly. So. If that's the case, then AOM//AOY isn't really AOM//AOY because they did not look at each individual artists gallery? Why do kamakazi pilots wear crash helmets?

Cheryle, thats probably why they did away with the Panel system for AOM selections. Too much work looking at all the galeries. It seems that since Rosity cant run a contest without a cluster fuck, and some members are taking advantage of contest rules, having contests here is an exercise in futility. Tribles Tribles Tribles, they follow you everywhere!