Okay, I bet allot of you are saying to yourselves: "Great, just what we need another forum that will keep me on the Computer longer" I know I am!! LOL But this forum is designed with one goal in mind... HOW TO KEEP RENDEROSITY & RENDEROTICA HERE!!!!! Here is a very simple guideline... How can we do this, where not only Renderosity benefits from it, but YOU the population and artists benefit from it!! Something that will enable your work to be noticed not just by this community, but by the world, a way for you to showcase your talent and skills and also make a little money from as well!! Be looking forward to hearing your suggestions!! Jack

Ok, Re: lack of funds and too long hours. Here are my thoughts for the brainstorming session. First of all, why can't we simply do this the same way the PBS stations do it? Have a "pledge drive" type of thing. I would be more than willing to either pay a reasonable membership fee (gawd knows if I can maintain a membership at Navworks and the MeshFactory as well as other places I would be happy to do the same here). Second idea: perhaps expand or re-vamp the current sponsorship program, allowing for a financial contribution from those of us who a) don't have websites or b) whose sites are not 3D or graphics related but who would like to be sponsors of this endeavor. That way, those who are financially able to contribute to this site and community can do so without costing those who don't have the money anything. Don't misunderstand me. The online store is an excellent idea and if the quality of the models continues to be as high as it is now (which I have no doubt will be the case) it will be a valuable asset towards defraying some of the costs of running this place. This is, bar none, the BEST 3D site I have seen. The wealth of information and assistance here is a valuable thing and I would hate to lose it. The freedom of expression allowed here is, in itself, worth keeping this place open. If this place were to close down I would have nowhere to go to exchange information and make what small contributions I make now other than a vast variety of sites, each dealing with a specific program. This is the ONLY site I am aware of that covers the majority of the software I use. Without Renderosity I would be forced to spend hours going from site to site, forum to forum. If there is anything - and I mean ANYTHING within my power that I can do to help keep this site going you have only to ask and it's done. Kate

I'll state it again in this Forum..I'm with DARTH on this..Lets all throw in a $1 (or more) a month to help with thge site and the staff...Don't look at it as charity or as a pay site but rather..payment for services rendered...we all benefit from this site so lets all kick in and do something about it..come on Jack..let us do this for ya...!!

can't let ya do it, chaos. it's not our style. it IS greatly appreciated. the gesture is a beautiful one in thought, but in action, it could run into ALL sorts of terrible situations and unnecessary scenarios and factions. gotta pass on that one. one other aspect i would like to bring up, is this site could be a launching pad for group projects. not so much in depth discussions, but a suggestion or idea and others wishing to contribute to, or work on said idea contact one another via e-mail or whatever is convenient by all parties. the way i see this particular forum is another way for the community to connect and join together in a variety of projects within AS WELL AS outside of R'osity. ed

I can't say I understand the big fuss against the store, it's not like anybody is forcing you to buy stuff. Remember, everything in Freestuff (including my own very humble contribution) is a GIFT, as is this site. Take the gift freely given (hopefully with a little gratitude), but don't feel you're entitled to it in perpetuity. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'll continue to support the freestuff section, as best my talents and time allow, regardless of whether or not I also sell anything. I'm sure many others will too. I see the store as more choice, as I see Zygote's Millie as more choice. No one is forcing you to go the commercial route, if an Artist or company decides to give you a freebie, it's their gift to give, and their choice. From an artist's perspective, having someone compliment your work is a great feeling, but having them like your work enough to sacrifice some of their hard earned cash, well, I still remember the thrill of selling my first artwork, many moons ago. So, even though I like free stuff as well as the next guy, and am not too close to being "commercial", to the store idea, I say, Hell Yeah! I think this has been mentioned before, but I think one cool idea would be to sell CD's with content from the site. It would be cool to have offline access to the gallery or forums, and CDs are a low overhead method of distribution. Other "free" type sites have done this, Aminet (on the Amiga), POV Ray (free raytracer) puts out an annual CD of images , the Lightwave mailing list has an indexed database of the list on CD. Regards- Lemurtek

Ah, finally got in here, it won't access from the panal on the side by the way. First as I said in C&D you guys are doing a more than terrific job here!! I consider this to be my home away from home and reallya little more sometimes. I really think you should make this a pay for membership site, even if it's only a dollar a month, even more if need be. I for one am more than willing if that what it takes to keep the site going, all the bills paid and the administrations salary paid as well. I don't really think you'll lose very many people this way either and as far as Bones being broke and pracftically homeless, I'd be more than glad to pay for his membership as well, until he gets back up on his feet. Just wanted you to know my sister Liz and I are with ya'll all the way what ever you decide as long as you don't close down the site!!! Verdie : )

Ed, What, exactly, are the " ALL sorts of terrible situations and unnecessary scenarios and factions..." that you refer to against the plan of sending contributions? We deserve a better explanation why the easiest solution is being dismissed. We are not five years old here. It is my guess that this new forum will stagnate unless you guys are more forthcoming with why things won't work. Calenders, CD collections etc. are all very well and good, but you have to be careful there. The Gallery states that all rights to the images remain with their creator. Now THAT is "ALL sorts of terrible situations and unnecessary scenarios and factions." Before I can get to work thinking of new ideas, I need to know why my first one is no good, or else I'll keep going back to it. One way to improve Renderosity though, outside of financially, might be to stop doing everything behind closed doors. There is a lot of distrust in this place, though it is usually suppressed. One way to eliminate that is to post unedited minutes of Admin/Moderator meetings for all to see. State the charter of this site anew. What are the long range goals of Jack and Co.? What in the heck are "Renderosity Security Issues" outside of preventing the site from being vandalized by hackers? If you guys are trying to create a "Skull and Bones" society within the guise of a 3-d graphics site, well...that's kind of silly. -Dumb_Logic

Galleries open to the public, everything else for paying members. Even if you(we) lost a wack of members there still might even be a surplus that could go into advertising and promotion.Promoting the site also promotes all the artists that have work in the galleries.A possible win-win situation.(hmmmm..."Renderosity Talent Agency"?...ok maybe that's a stretch...) A pay site might also lessen the amount of Cadash-like visitors.It's not as much fun to ruin something when you have to pay for it. I'm sure everyone would rather see this place remain an open hippy-commune free-for-all, but I'd gladly pay the cash instead of losing the site and having to go back to the PFO.(shudder). I'd chip in for Bonestructure too. Just a thought, please don't hurt me if you REALLY,REALLY disagree

I'm with you, Alias. Actually, thinning out the herd might not be such a bad idea. First, like you say, you lose the Cadashes of the world. Most people begin coming here because they have a question or are seeking to gain inspiration from other people's work. Make d/l freestuff, and viewing galleries free for all with no login required. Also, no login required to shop at the store. Instead of encouraging everyone to have a login id, make a seperate site-based search engine that people can use for free to search for help. I believe everything has been covered already, three times over. There are no new questions until Poser Five comes out. After a person comes here a few times, they will be enticed to join because they see the comradarie in the forums, the quality in the galleries and will desire to be amongst such a collective. Keep the membership fee extremely reasonable and there you go. So many problems solved with one move. Oh sure, people will bitch. Accusations will fly. People will leave. Some might be so angry that they will start a new Poser community. They will then see what kind of pressure Jack and Co are under and fold, and come back saying, wow, you guys are right..this is tough work. Here's my fee. As it is now, there's a LOT of clutter here at Renderosity. The Poser Forum is constantly flooded with newbies asking "How do I boot Poser?" when they should be doing searches instead. The answers are already there. My plan would force them to do the search first, and then ask meaty questions later, when they are a member. -Dumb_Logic

sorry if it came out that way. it was 4 in the morning and another VERY long night as were way too many were in the past. i usually do throw in a full explanation and on this one, too tired and wiped out to do so. first off, jack and i are beginning to reconsider your and quite a few others' proposal of setting up a contribution box. here was my own personal concerns on this. a year ago, jack and i created and ran an interactive anime site called Anime Agenda. it was a role playing espionage game using anime art and text. it was a HUGE hit. soon, the cost of the site overwhelmed us. we asked the members if they would support a $3.00 a month fee. They screamed heartfelt cheer of HELL YEAH. so we did. we got just over $200.00 which included 3 month installments of $7. and the fan based was four times the size of here. our Art Museum(sp?) in detroit did a donation box instead of payment to enter. no one dropped dollar one in it. there ARE a number of individuals here i am sure would contribute. we may very well have a surprising amount of cash in the beginning. (and forgive the cynicism here) it may not last. it will dribble off and grow cobwebs from lack of attention. it's like a Rent Party. it's a quick fix, not a long distance one. and as i have said, we may still set it up and use it to pay the people who have dedicated their time and energy these past six monthes in time, work and effort as admins and moderators. the real concern i have is of the possibility of this splitting up the community into those who contribute finiacially to those who do not. the worry that a paying member will feel not so much superior but grow territorial and posessive of the forum and use the fact during arguments with ones who may not wish to or unable to. i'm deathly afraid of the fights and further disruptive scenarios. and has Dennis Miller eloquently says' that's just me, i could be wrong. ed

Thanks Ed. I never remember to take into consdieration when something is written. I will try to remember the time stamp is actually there to be seen on each message. You know, if you did set up the contribution box and it gathered only dust, that would be heartbreaking. You'd probably come to resent everyone here which would make things worse. However, I do think that at least initially, it would do well until a real plan is put into place. -Dumb_Logic

that also scares me. at the anime site we had a very tight little family and a few very good friends, who were the sole contributors, and yes, i did very much resent the rest of them. i don't want to resent renderosity and the family here. and true, the box may hold an initial benefit to take care of those. and one other thing, darth. thank you. and THANK YOU chaos as well. and to ana, picnic, freakachu, and COUNTLESS others out there. THANK YOU and don't worry, alias even if i whole heartedly disagree, it would be that only ;)

(You could whip Alias into a pulp for disagreeing with you-S). I think, after reading your reservations, that maybe a long term 'drop a little in the box' deal wouldn't work. HOWEVER, maybe a one time 'hold out the hand'. Then work on other ways to make this work. If we're all saying like a couple dollars a month, then maybe $30 or so on a one time basis--or whatever. HOWEVER, on the other hand, Kate the Screwy (couldn't help myself) is right--I contribute to NPR every year--they have a little fund drive and I KNOW if I and others don't support them, then off they go to the netherworld. I can't get by without them on a daily basis (and there are 3 in my neck of the woods, a classical, an alternative music, and a really interesting talk one that emanates from WAMU in DC) and I would hate to get by without Renderosity on a daily basis. Yes, territorialism is dreadful thing--watch birds chase each other around--bunches of little ones chasing a crow or jay--all us Dianes/Dianas could gang up on the Darths, for instance. A bloody mess if there ever was one. Still--maaaaaaaybe we could make it work without devolving into a bunch of 'I contributed and you didn't' war. Diane B (I'm thinking REAL hard what 'handle' I could come up with so youall can mess with me too LOL)

OK, i read now several messages. And i have to tell you and all other moderators, i feel really sad because i don't have realised that you make this wonderfull forum in your free-time and with your personel money. And sorry again, i have never said thank you but will it do right now: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR WORK, AS ONLY WITH THIS I HAVE LEARNED SO MUCH IN SO SHORT TIME !!!! I see some possible solutions to bring back money to this site and in last consequence to the whole community: 1st) You have 15000 Members why not make some affiliate programms with Zygote, Amazon and others (As a remark, this brings not so much money) 2nd) Give us who can/want to pay for this great place a virtual member-prop which we can buy 3rd) My statement at opening-day of your shop was that i don't want make money with my creations, i stay to this statement with only one exception: I will make a prop for the online-store and sell it for only 1 or 2$ (So cheap that hopefully many users would buy it) and 100% of the money rest at renderosity to bring back a little bit of the cost's for this absolutely great place. I would be happy if you can accept this. THANKS AGAIN. Robert Egli from Switzerland alias SHARKEY

I still say instead of donations a membership would be more lasting and more equal for all concerned. Also I do like Sharkey's idea, good for you Robert! What ever you decide the 4 Dreamspinners will go along with it! Thanks again, GUYS!! Verdie : )

I thought whipping was restricted to Renderotica? The calender idea was tried by 3D Cafe(ONCE).That and CD's run the risk of having boxes of unsold merchandise lying around. If the pay site or endless series of quick fixes are undesirable, I'd suggest turning the store into something that would interest all types of CG artists.Maybe get friendly with the people at 3D Cafe and see how their store is working for them(and what mistakes they've made).Maybe we could be able to buy Poser 5 right from Renderosity. While most of the members here are Poser users first and formost, being too specialised isn't always good for commercial ventures. Not exactly a simple solution nor a quick one.Let the forums runs themselves a bit more and do some networking.Get some software salesmen drunk.Show them your guns.If you can get a few pennies out of Mimic I'm sure someone else has a few pennies for you. I wish I could come up with a stunning cure-all idea but this is about it.Nice idea,more work for you guys... Oh,and in my last post I was expecting attacks by the same cheapskates that opposed the store not from any of the Admins. Thanks Ed Alias (who secretly wishes he could make fun of a guy with an arse in the middle of his name but has seen Ed's guns and bulletproof vests are hard to find in Canada)

Apologies if this posts twice but the 1st time I tried to send, it just disappeared!!! Although the idea for voluntary contributions is a good one, at best, it's only a short term fix. Why not consider incorporating a couple of the suggestions together? One possible scenario, (& there are others), would be to have a nominal yearly membership fee in order to keep it affordable to everyone & then rebate that amount, (or possibly to "sweeten" the deal, a bit more) on the users 1st purchase from the online store? This cut would come entirely out of Renderositys' end, so as not to penalize the artist, but would give Jack, ed, et al an immediate & ultimately predictable influx of $$$ that would be paid back at a much slower rate as people bought things. This would solve a number of problems. An affordable membership fee would drive out the least number of current members. It would serve to promote traffic, & ultimately, (at least in theory) create more purchases from the store. Another suggestion would involve "levels" of membership. Again a low initial amount so as not to freeze too many people out, but an escalating scale so, $100.00/year gets you "X" number of benefits, $50.00 gets you "Y" benefits, etc. etc. These "bennies" could use the ideas of a "Renderosity Calendar", CD with models, morphs, textures, etc contributed by the more skilled of us here.

okay.... how to word this... and get my ideas across... hmm.. let's see... i love the idea of yearly membership or a donation box.... why... some of us just don't have a way to support you otherwise..though we have the will... without a credit card... no way to buy... but a money order to a post office box... yup we can do that... and it helps..can help.... and the calendar... and things... well here's the rub... how can the most of us... contribute... we would have to get permission of every maker of textures and props we used...could be a logistical nightmare... the very same creators and makers that have their things in the store.. may be your only avenue.. for CD collections... and calendars.. the rest of us.. left out in the cold until we grow good enough to make all that ourselves...so for immediate assistance.... i really do strongly suggest the donations box... it buys time for the store to fly.... and make this place self supporting...

Thanks Ed that does make a little sense. However something must be done. Just a few shouldering the burden is just way to much.I don't think a short term infussion from the members would be all that bad.It would at least releive the pressure on you guys until a more "palatable" answer can be found.

Ed--Why don't you guys offer flat member rates for advertising? Supporting this forum by directing traffic to member sites seems like a win-win situation. It helps the community, and it helps the members who advertise their sites (I want the Debate and Complaint forum). I would hope that folks would support advertisers if they were fellow members in this forum. I would also think that a flat rate (x amount dollars for y number of weeks--like with print advertising) would work far better (and be a lot easier to estimate) than a per-click formula. (That way Renderosity would have the money up front for operations, instead of relying on visitors to click on banners). I have no idea what your ad revenue is like, so only you could break it down into a formula that would help you continue this site, and help advertising members get their banner ads up in the forum. But I think it would be a great revenue generator if you decide to remain a public "for-profit" site.

Well, I think that a "voluntary subscription" with a system that automatically bills your credit card "every" month so people won't forget or get lazy about making contributions is a not too bad idea. The only catch is that those who are subscribed do get something that the others don't. I have to beg someone to host and post everything I give away at the freestuff pages because I am not savy or interested enough to learn how to do it myself. How 'bout I be able to upload my files to you guys like I can upload an image. Or is this a bad idea because it would take up server space and make it more expensive on you? I don't know how this all works. Or, how 'bout if I give you 5 - dollars a month and 1 to 2 dollars of it go toward a monthly contest winner? And my contribution makes me elligible to vote on a contest theme? Don't feel bad about taking contributions or "subscriptions" if you are giving something tangible back in return. Davo

I stated in the c/d forum( but it kinda got buried) that my idea would be to make a CD that had various things made by the members. ie. props, characters,clothing, transmaps for hair or clothing, textures,etc. You could sell it for $10-20. Everything would be made by the members themselves who volunteer to help and the content of the cd would be only on the cd not to be released elsewhere, and it would have something for all the programs featured in Renderosity or the programs that the members would choose. ie: brushes or tubes for PSP and photoshop materials and/or .vobs for Vue materials and/or .opb for Bryce shaders for Carrera, raydream you get the idea. But the key would be to make it unique just a thought, Marge

Now that's a good idea Marge!! Verdie : )

I honestly think the time for half measures is over. Make this a subscription site, Not a lot, Enough to cover the tech stuff and pay a wage to the staff. Other sites do it ( Other sites that arn't nearly as good ). If this site closes down I'll be very sad. This is the first on-line community I've ever felt part of and I've made some friends. Let's all come together and sort this one out. Glengarry P.S. Jack, Ed + Crew, I have Nothing but respect for you. But that's not gonna pay the bills

One resource we have on this forum is a lot of skill and talent in graphics. Would it be possible to write material for some of the magazines, like Computer Arts, with the proceeds coming back into the site? With the combined skills here we should be able to produce some saleable copy without the expense of producing the magazines. Ian

the donation idea is beginning to grow on us. a simple passing of the hat. along with it, jack and i would also like to create a fund raiser, like they do for public TV and so forth. for various amounts, a thank you gift. NOTHING CHEESY of course. a donated morph or whatever. i know, that second part is unnecessay, but it is something jack and i wish to do. the kitty we collect will go overhead and to a small group of people behind the scenes who bust ass every day. The admins and moderators. Also, allow me to say that, the above is but ONE avenue, one idea we will implement. and the basis of the ideas we will implement will have factor(s) that also aid the community as well as pay bills and pay those who have volunteered and worked as admins and moderators here. ed

hey ed, where do the volunteers sign up? And I mean VOLUNTEERS, not staff to be paid when money is available. Cuz, I could volunteer a specific amount of time if needed. Kate

send me an email with detailed info on where you wish to help out and what you can offer or bring with you to aid and help out. How much time and effort you have, and so forth. and, if ya feel like it, send me some chocolate. ;) edarsenal@aol.com or just click on my name in this post and it will take you to a page where you can email me directly.