Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12358&Form.ShowMessage=1193525

Man, couldn't help replying to that one ;o). Laurie

Me neither :-) Usually I just sigh and move on; don't know what the problem was this morning lol

Yeah, just amazes me sometimes how some folks think their work is more "worthy" than someone elses ;o). Laurie

I think it funny that an artist can feel threatened by technology...where is should inspire them to make even greater art.

yeah, shrug, see dead horse get a stick shadding up and back to work...

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1053161

I have a few books and DVDs by Dan Alban - one of the Lightwave gurus. In his Character Building set, he says (several times) that if you need a realistic human, you might as well get Poser and modify the figure to your liking. Creating a human from scratch is a waste of time with all the commercial figures available out there. So neener, neener! ;-)

Amen to that Crescent ^5

Crescent...thank you. i've had lightwave for about 10 days. i really would love to make poser/poseable figures in lightwave. so, like when i was learning...ha...hah...hah!!!! torturing myself with 3dsmax, my coaster disk....i was scared to ask a question in the forum. soooo, let's see...i got home at about 5. i tried to get the manual to sink in for a couple hours....nothing nada, zip....hard, after a full day to remember exactly what alt clicking your right mouse, as opposed to left clicking your mouse....let alone.....adding the shift key to the equation does. i'd love to feel comfortable asking a question, over there...but, until i learn more, i will shut up. and, if i stay quiet, i will just stick with rhino.

noooo....see...i flunked, already...that should NOT be clicking. that should be holding down and dragging. stupid me.

noooo....see...i flunked, already...that should NOT be clicking. that should be holding down and dragging. stupid me.

Actually the worst I've found are traditional artists who are now using Painter. If you want snobs, there you go. They're outraged that other traditional artists don't consider their work art, but look down their noses at any computer artist who doesn't paint from scratch. Postwork on renders? Hah! Not good enough for them.

Poppi - most of the LW people are very nice and very helpful. Although a bit quieter, I think you'll find the LW Forum a lot like the Rhino forum. I lurk there because I'm trying to do too many things to put together coherent questions yet on that forum, but I'm confident that when I can ask a decent question, I'll get good answers. Cheers!

I've finally decided that this has little to do with art. It's just another example of people whe need to have someone they can feel superior to. It probably says more about their own insecurity than anything else.

"I've finally decided that this has little to do with art. It's just another example of people whe need to have someone they can feel superior to. It probably says more about their own insecurity than anything else." Amen to that. It may as well be said that photography isn't art, according to some people's definition of what makes an artist, or how art is created. IMO, any medium, from scrawling on a cave wall with a burnt stick, to tweaking dials in software, (or maybe in the future, directly driven by biofeedback/brainboard devices) is capable of producing art.

X-posting out of laziness, thought you'd enjoy the link : If the end-result, the pic, is a good one, who cares how it was made (speaking as someone who started in 2D on paper waaaaaay back) ? And as to nude pics - have you ever checked out just how many bathing Susannahs, rising Venuses, and abducted and dragon-guarded maidens there are in the history of art ? Just one example : http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/altdorfer/loth-daughters.jpg Albrecht Altdorfer : Lot and his daughters, 1537 mural in a bishop's palace (!)

Well, since I postwork a lot, I think I am going to post all future work to the 2d forum for discussion lol (j/k, angry superior types!)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12375&Form.ShowMessage=1185293

Hey SamTherapy - I like the idea of brainboards, but ain't I gotta buy a brain first?

Since I couldn't reply there, I'll reply here but I gotta say the threads are getting locked way to quick anymore. What's wrong with a good healthy debate? It's like the hint of disagreement and they bring in the key. Sorry folks, you can't make it go away by surpressing the discussions.

*"As for re-working a sketch: you have to actually have the ability to draw (something lacking in most 3d users). Repositioning a poser image is not comparable to sketching something from scratch.

Poser is dressing up Barbie and parading her around for your friends."*

This is like assuming that one uses Photoshop because they can't draw or paint in real life. 3D and 2D can come together for a lot of people.
For example, my latest gallery upload is a simple portrait. Hardly worth putting my name on according to those in the 2D thread right? But, while the figure and violin are DAZ items, the body texture is a WIP by me and the dress texture is mine. Both of which took a heck of a lot longer than composing the render but both of which I'm extremely proud of. There's more 2D in that image than Poser but since the end result is for Poser and it was rendered in Poser, it belongs in Poser.

Closed minds often miss quite a bit.

Anyone took a look at the April issue of 3DWorld? I think some of our detractors ought to check out the exhibition pages (#93 onward).

"What's wrong with a good healthy debate?" Well, I don't know that I'd classify comments like, "Poser is dressing up Barbie and parading her around for your friends.," debate, healthy or otherwise. From that thread at least, the debate tactic of choice for some seems to be adolescent ego-tripping and put downs. Nothing is ever solved in these debates but if you're going to be childish, they become less than useless.

In every debate you'll have the people who are only speaking to hear themselves talk and more interested in insults than in actual discussion. There was a lot of that going on, yes but those interested in the discussion shouldn't be cut off for the actions of the few.

They were putting down 3D as inferrior to 2D and I would have liked to discuss that. I felt it was a narrow minded and short sighted way of looking at it considering so many of us use 2D to accomplish 3D renders.

Hmmmm..."they" were putting 3D down...now this is the whole problem isn't it?...if anyone had bothered to step back from the knee-jerk defensive reaction that seemed to raise it's paranoid head, you may have noticed that there were very few people in the thread that actually "put down" 3d as inferior to 2d...
It seems unfortunate that some poser defenders became guilty very quickly of suffering from the sort of thing you are complaining about, blanket statements, rash generalisations and a divisive "us & them" mentality.
As an example:*
"After having a good look around, you so called "2d guys" seem to rely on scanning your initial images in and then postworking them, how lame then is it that you blame others for using Poser to create their initial work and the post working it?"* Talk about rash generalisation!...and isn't this kind of response just as shortsighted as syndriod's (toungue in cheek, I believe) go at "Naked Vicky in the Temple Images" ~ and as for the debate about "blame-censure' well I don't buy it, I think some people just love to take offense rather than have a healthy discussion about the validity and basis in reality of a differing point of view. It's very easy to start labelling people as elitist and feeling self-rightious, because then anything further said can simply be seen as a predictable reaction by the "misguided elitist snobs". Having said that, there were a lot of positive and constructive responses in the thread, but there was also a lot of non-constructive knee-jerking too...but as had been mentioned "who cares?" ~ if you think your work has value to you, and you enjoy producing it, with whatever tools of your choice, then isn't that the main thing...human nature being what it is, not everyone will have the same tastes...and really, having differing tastes does not mean you look down upon those who don't share your tastes. The "us & them" boundaries seem very artificial to me, existing only as a catalyst for friction instead of healthy co-operation and mutual learning from each other. There are many artists who use Poser with other software and media, there are plenty of 2d artists who use Poser in their work...so where is the boundary drawn? It is an imaginary one, created in some peoples minds, by debates that go nowhere. The debate was going nowhere, fast...if you want to continue it here, fine...I'll post a link to the 2d, Art Theory and Photography forums too if you like? But once again...what exactly was the point of it? Anyone who puts down anyone elses methods of expressing themselves should simply be seen as ignorant. AS I SAID: No-one is more superior than any one else because of the medium/program or whatever they choose to express themselves with...let's all tolerate and celebrate our diversity! Or did that point get missed too?
:-)>

"...let's all tolerate and celebrate our diversity! Or did that point get missed too?"

That was one of my points. The other was the knee jerk reaction the original poster had, lumping Poser users into a non-existant (in my opinion) category based on the type of render he was judging. I could render a naked vicki in a temple but the temple would be my model, the textures, hours worth of painting in Photoshop, and it would fall into the original posters "category" because it's a short sighted view of 3D. And there was a lot to get offended at in that thread. The attitude wasn't imagined as is evidenced by the reactions of the 20 posts before mine.

Personally, I have no "us verses them" issues because I use 2D in conjunction with 3D. Call it an attempt at enlightenment if you wish.

"They were putting down 3D"...you still haven't addressed my point of who "they" actually are...if you are going to get offended by "them" then you may have missed this point of view I also put foward ~ "Anyone who puts down anyone elses methods of expressing themselves should simply be seen as ignorant" - getting offended by these false assumptions and classifications is (in my humble opinion) simply a waste of mental energy that could be better directed at creating artwork. :-)>

Hmm, you seem to have missed my point as well. :) Ah well...

Kendra, What EXACTLY was that point again?...was it this? "Personally, I have no "us verses them" issues because I use 2D in conjunction with 3D. Call it an attempt at enlightenment if you wish." I understand the words you are using, but the rest of what you said in that post and your previous one seemed to contradict those words a bit...or was your point the bit about the original poster "lumping images into the Vicki In A Temple" thing? If it was that...GO BACK to the original thread and read on after the Naked Vicki comments where syndroid says..."2 (more seriously)" indicating to me that he didn't really expect people to take the first comments seriously...I know I didn't take them seriously...if your point was none of the above then DO enlighten me...so I don't miss your point this time...please, really, I am curious. Also with all this obfiscation regarding missed points, one very clear question I posed remains unanswered ~ who are "THEY"??
:-)>

Geez, Punk, for the last time... 'they' are the ones who did post the attitude above. It's out there, we've heard it here in the Poser forum time and again and I don't believe there was any mistaking the person I quoted or the reactions of the 20 posts in this thread above mine. I didn't take his "2 (more seriously)" any more seriously due to the statement: "Hypothetically speaking of course, since I'm glad mind numbing art has a very own gallery." Not everyone had the same attitude and I never said they did. I am not condeming your entire forum, not in the least. But the attitude of several there (and elsewhere on this site condeming poser to a new member) tended to lump Poser users into the category I mentioned without a thought to the consideration that some of us use Poser in conjunction with 2D and Modeling apps. I don't know how to make in any more clear other than anytime someone throws a blanket statement about Poser being click and render only, I'll remind them that it's often more than they realize. Now if you want to discuss the issues, the validity of poser art, or whether postwork constitutes 2D vs 3D... fine, but your tone indicates a wish to simply argue and I'm in no mood for an arguement that has nothing to do with the issues.

"...who are "THEY"??" Well, PunkClown, let's start with the authors of these pearls of ecumenical wisdom: ___________________________________________________________ "I'm glad mind numbing art has a very own gallery." "I find it almost degrating that you can spend enough cash on DAZ... poser program and an ok CPU.. and waaalaa Instant Artist.." "To appease these feelings of inferiority the sad Poser artist" "you have to actually have the ability to draw (something lacking in most 3d users)" "Poser is dressing up Barbie and parading her around for your friends." ___________________________________________________________ Now, you seem to be the soul of reason, it's all good, can't we all just get along, etc. Unfortunately, you seem unable to understand how anyone would take exception to comments like those above. Aw shucks, it's just some old boys joshin', din' mean no harm. Fair enough, maybe that's the way you guys interact over in Mayberry, but us city folk are liable to get a mite riled when you start disrespecting Miss Vicky. Not to put too fine a point on it but for the most part, we were visitors in your fine town and entirely unfamiliar with the locals and their customs. This is the internet remember and without facial expression, body language etc. what you write is liable to be taken seriously by strangers. Now not for a minute do I believe that it was all in good fun and none of it serious. That's cool. If people want to spend hours laboring over a drop shadow and pronounce it art while anything else is crap, frankly neither Scarlet nor I give a damn. On the other hand, if you have an opinion that you want to get across, an idea that you want to discuss seriously, then lighten up on the sarcasm and the attitude, you'll get a lot farther. The more I think about it though, the more inclined I am to believe that such was never the intent to begin with, rather more like 'hey guys, let's lure some Poser users over here so we can put them down.' If that's the case, why not next time just give us a miss and play among yourselves quietly.

sigh Well, I didn't start the thread, I didn't invite you over, the member who did is hardly a regular in 2d and has even admitted to me via IM that he loves to stir up a bit of drama...so keep all that in mind please...lets see if any of what I am about to say makes any sense to you...(this was originally a reply to Kendra's post above you, but you got in before I could reply):
"anytime someone throws a blanket statement about Poser being click and render only, I'll remind them that it's often more than they realize."
That's clear enough, thanks Kendra...I think most reasonable people would agree with that point too...I'm really not wishing simply to argue...my "tone"?? lol...I just wanted to clarify exactly what your point was. If it was your statement that I just quoted above, then you would know that I have already agreed with you time and time again in both threads...so far from arguing with you I am in agreeance...as for you being
"in no mood for an arguement that has nothing to do with the issues" my point was that "the issues" are pretty much non-existent if you can understand my line of reasoning in that:
"Anyone who puts down anyone elses methods of expressing themselves should simply be seen as ignorant"
Once again...getting offended by these peoples' false assumptions and classifications is simply a waste of mental energy that could be better directed at creating artwork. (unless of course you would rather be getting all caught up in being offended by so much tosh than actually creating artwork)

~ so lmckenzie, do you still want to get upset by all this rubbish? Or do you want to show us what good poser artists really can do by creating something that will prove the naysayers wrong?
Cheers.

P.S. Going by your list, lmckenzie "They" turn out to be a grand total of three people: three of the quotes was from ONE member who has long proved himself to be a stirrer of the pot. (and I see he features quite prominently in another thread linked to from this one, by dialyn) One comment you quoted was by the originator of the thread... and the other comment quoted by the very same member who invited you over in the first place, and has admitted to a love of drama... interesting don't you think? :-)>

Punky old shoe, I was sincere when I said that you were the soul of reason, on this topic and I agree with your view. I did think you were perhaps being a bit disingenuous in wondering what all the fuss was about so I quoted chapter and verse. Thank you for verifying my hunch that the whole thing was basically trollbait to begin with. It's certainly nothing new. Every few weeks here, someone starts up a debate about 'Is it art if you don't make your own models...,' 'Isn't nude Vicky just softcore porn for adolescents...,' and so on, ad nauseum. Still, I continue to be amazed that supposedly intelligent adults can somehow imbue their personal taste with the status of "artistic truth." As for showing what good Poser artists can do, I ain't one, neither artist nor good. I am a Poser user and so do take issue with some of the more ridiculous attacks on the medium. There is a wealth of talent on display here as I'm sure there is in your area, for those with an open mind and an appreciation of art. As for the others, I agree they are best left to wither in the silence they deserve. Still, an occasional smack up side the head keeps the old juices flowing. Live long and prosper.

Disingenuous...me?...lol! Honestly, I really can understand people getting upset, but the reason I kept pressing on the "who are they" thing was not so much being disingenuous, but in the hope that people would actually do the sums and see the thread for what it was...as you said...troll-bait! I get upset too, when I see good people just trying to create with their favourite medium of choice get drawn into these kinds of mischevious (and potentially hurtful) distractions from their art...It's very frustrating for all involved.
So thanks Larry...you live long and prosper too! (and thank you to all the patient regulars in the Poser forum who have put up with this particular visitor's long-windedness) Take care all, and happy renderings!
:-)>

Vicky sends hugs, then back to the temple - a girl's work is never done.