Attached Link: Your App and Your Modeling Process

Master Teyon has already extended an invitation to all modelers who hang out here (i.e. lurk) to tell us more about your modeling needs. I certainly don't have all the answers (Teyon has them), but with all the talent in here I'm sure we can figure out a few ways to address whatever modeling problems you have... There was a very interesting thread posted a while back, that started a *getting-to-know-you session*. It talked about modelers and their favortie modeling applications. Perhaps we can pick up from where we left off? Every modeling application has it's own approach to dealing with manipulating geometry. Some have better tools than others, but the underlying principles are the same. I think that our Modeling Forum should be about sharing techniques that make use of those underlying principles to address specific modeling problems. I for one would like ***Edge Loops*** explained and demystified. Let's start a discussion about what you'd like to see this forum do for you. Is that okay with you folks? Cheers! M

As Lord Moebius so graciously stated, I'd like us to start a discussion on what this forum should be. DO we want challenges? Do we want weekly discussions on how to approach starting to model a particular object in a program (one week, LW, one week, Maya, one week Rhino, etc.)? What a about a backroom? If we were to have a backroom, besides tutorials, what would you like to see there? Do we want thi splace to be just Q and A? Let us know. I myself, would love to understand this whole, Sub division thing and how to implement it in a program like Lightwave or XSI. So far, I've just been modeling with polys and NURBs. So, join Lord Moebius and I in a discussion of what you'd like to see here. Don't worry, he won't use the powers of the darkside of the force on ya...much.

Teyon, I prefer the title "Supreme Chancellor" or "SChM" for short. :oP Where is everyone in here anyway? M

LOL. I'll have to remember that one, my master. GOod question. I hope we haven't become mods over the realm of the dead. Hades is such a bad cook...

I'm currently working with Cinema 4d v5, but will be upgrading to the basic r8 sometime next month. I'd like to know....everything. But to start with, ways to make lower polygon models would be fabulous. I'd like to know how to reduce the number of polys in a model without making great big holes in it. My modelling approach is to have an idea for a massively complex model ( a human figure or whatever) then tear out handfuls of hair as I succeed in turning out a pretty good sphere with two blobs on for eyes :-) This is called, not knowing where to start. I did model a reasonable crumpled quilt cover recently, but it's got an enormously high poly count. (it's in my most recent picture in my gallery if you're curious) Enlighten me, please :-) Shanna :-) Modelling Muppet.

okay....i'm too much of a bigmouth to lurk for long. after failing miserably to make an old fashioned doll for the december rhino challeng...i skimped more than usual, and with my rebate got lightwave. i've tried over and over to achieve even partial greatness on making the face with the edgeloops that is over in the lw forum. i need help with edge loops and that furslurginner "spin quads" command. i did figure out how to hit the f key, though to constrain my edgeloops to a certain area. oh, and, some brief tips on cutting up/dividing a mesh into parts....i am thinking that i can just click on the polygons in a certain part...hit my q key and give them a name...is this right or wrong way...?

AH, nice to have some feedback, even very specific ones. While we kind of wanted to just take a poll of what you want the forum to be, I feel compelled to give a long winded answer to your brief and pointed questions. :) (I'm so goofy) I have discovered, in - what has it been Moe, two months since the DE went public? - well, in the two months or so that I've been doing poly modeling in LWDE coupled with the month of Max I had, that the best wat to start a head is with a subdivided cube. I have had much success with this so far, limited only by the features of the demos I used. One important thing I learned to keep polys down is to place them only where you need them when possible. As an example, take this head I started in LW. It's not the super neat mesh I'd like but for my fourth LW model, I think it shows you how you can achieve nice results without enormous poly counts. The trick is trying to keep your detail only where you need it.

In Max, you can do this with the split or edge loop tool which I found very handy. LW has the Bandsaw tool as well as a knife tool which is also very handy for this. Again, I'm new to polys and these programs, so there may be other tools you can use also. Just be sure to make every poly count for something. I myself stuck to the bandsaw tool in LW to make this head because I understood what it would do. I then tried to use all the extra polys to make details that would be needed in the finished model. I don't think there's a row of polys there that I could do without and in this smooth shaded view, you can see how each poly played a part in the final model's detail. All I need do now is split open a mouth and add some ears. C4D probably has similar tools in it that can be used the same way. If you want to keep your polys low, try to make every poly you add mean soemthing. Ifyou add a row of polys (like with a bandsaw tool) then manipulate the points of that row so each new poly affects the surface in some importatnt way. This can be for just about anything. A really important feature these days are point weights. If your program supports this feature you'd do well to learn how to use it. That's the fastest and easiest way to keep your poly count's down while maintaining high amounts of detail. I hope this helped some. Poppi, I'm not nearly qualified to give the kind of tips you'd need for LW...you've been using it longer than me. :)

Now then, back to some of the questions we'd like you to answer... Do we want challenges? Do we want weekly discussions on how to approach starting to model a particular object in a program (one week, LW, one week, Maya, one week Rhino, etc.)? What a about a backroom? If we were to have a backroom, besides tutorials, what would you like to see there? Do we want this place to be just Q and A? You're not limited to these questions only but I'd like to have a little feedback on them along with any other concerns and questions you may have. Thanks.

i saw somewhere in the lw forum that once they had a chat, where they all worked on something at the same time. even though there are a number of different apps, here...that would be fun. i'd like a weekly discussion on how to do certain THINGS in our various apps....like...mouths seem to give me fits in rhino and lightwave...or how to do stuff like offset surfaces, blend, merge, etc., in the different apps. 'cause let's face it...terminology differs from app to app, and if i don't know what it is called, chances are me tripping over it in the manuel are null to less than null.

Attached Link: http://host1.bondware.com/~syydr/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=36576

Exactly what I wanted to hear. Thanks! Added to the list of thigns to do. Thanks. Oh, and Poppi, have a look at this link, I think it will shed a little more light on the mouth thing in Rhino.

I really like the weekly discussion idea and we may be able to get members here who are experienced in each of the apps to demonstrate briefly how they'd approach certain things. I myself woul dlike to see a weekly "class" on making various things also. Nothing terribly advanced, as that would take some serious effort ot coordinate but making simple things or parts of things would be cool.

thank you..for the link. and i sure hope we get a "class". it's silly, but, someday, i would love to be able to model beautiful, doll models...in all sorts of period clothing. i know there is no market for it...it is just something i want to learn how to do. rhino is so great for making clothing, and, i just think this lightwave is gonna be the real answer to making the actual "doll".

Nothing silly about that.

I want to know everything. Seriously. I learn something from every discussion. I haven't gotten a proper grasp on any kind of modeling yet. Not to my satisfaction, and many concepts escape me. Admittedly, the situation of my life doesn't lend itself to learning, and I do have some brain damage and a memory like swiss cheese, without the cheese. But I figure if I keep reading stuff and trying it, sooner or later I'm bound to get hold of the concepts. One of my problems though, is I just can't sit down and model. I never know WHAT I want to model. I generally have to have some kind of inspiration. So one question I have, is how do people decide WHAT to model.

Ok then I USE truespace 3.2 and wings, and have occasionally modelled in Bryce ( don't worry, I got over it). I have on my system, Cinema3d, Blender and Amapi - none of which I can use. I bought the manual for Blender - and it made even less sense than before. I bought Brycetech's CD on Amapi - but either my copy of the program or my computer just don't do what everyone says it should, so I gave up. I use the spline tools in Cinema3d if I want to play with curves, but that's about it. Sharing 'cos I suspect I'm typical of many lurkers - I'm interested - have tried many things, but the frustration of constant repeated, unexplainable failures just wears you down after a while. Now I know ther'e lots of kind folk over on the forums for these apps that will try and help, but the problem is they can't unless they're actually sitting next to you. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's very difficult to say what we need, because if we knew that we'd be half way to solving the problems ourselves? A bit like the teacher who asks 'what didn't you understand about differential equations then?' To which the only sane answer is of course: 'er - differential equations!' So how to breathe life into the forum then? Well I think tutorials are great - as far as they go, but how about a tutorial with feedback - and I don't just mean back-patting - I mean crits. Is anyone up for that? Someone posts a tut, there's a general invitation to have a go - with the option to personalize it a bit, then we post the results and graciously allow each other to help us by pointing out things that we can't see, or don't know - without getting all precious and defensive. If folk are up for this, then we can really turn this forum into something. Whaddya say?

Attached Link: http://www.flay.com/text/modelingalizard.htm

okay...i'm game. here is the first little thing i tried to make with lightwave....it's not completely done, yet...needs detail on those feetses for one thing.... and, here is the tute i did it from. even though it is for lightwave, it would work for any modeller that can bevel...and, it is a very, very beginner one that leaves alot of room for individuality and creativity.

Thanks for volunteering Poppi. Obviously I can't comment on yours 'cos I'm crap at organic modelling - but a lizard seems like a good place to start - I'll try to post something on those lines tomorrow evening - any other takers? Could be painful but you might learn something useful? regards peejay

you're welcome. it is a simple tute, but, easy to turn into a unique "lizard creature". i hope alot of folks play along...and, peejay, you may just surprise yourself.

Poppi, are you and Teyon moving over to the dark side ? Lightwave ??? j/k, I may end up getting C4D myself.. may still model in Rhino. Anyhoo... I like the idea of a weekly topic (non app specific) and/or challenge on the topic. yanno, something nice and general .. read that simple. I have a question about mapping textures. I;ve downloaded 3DS Star Wars files from theforce.net and wondered how they get the textures/colors to go with the model. I know some use UVMapper .. but ya hafta convert to OBJ to map it. So, how do these guys create models in 3DS and have them textured ?

Mostly in MAX, and they use a multi subobject mapping technique, that I've barely started to learn. At least for the ships. I dunno about other models from the SW gang. I imagine Lightwave has something similar to multi sub texturing, and probably C4D does as well.

there is another free mapper called lithunwrap. it supports multiple formats, lwo, obj, 3ds...a bunch of them. so there ya go. i am hoping to learn to someday map...and, yes, even BONE in lightwave...but, for now, i'm happy to be getting a little handle on some of the modelling tools. don't worry...i'm not done with rhino by a long shot. it's just, well, i got to the point where i had to have something to basically take the place of poser, and, provide modelling, too. c4d was a consideration, but, then, i got a good deal on lw from a guy who had bought it to try and design surf boards of all things.

well, I dunno poppi. I've never had a chance to use Lightwave. I can't afford it and I HATE demos.

someone at the lightwave forum has lw for sale, and has gotten no nibbles, far as i know...maybe you could work something out with him. or, just post messages that you'd like to buy it, and, someone may come up with an older version or something. teyon uses the demo...scroll up...might be worth it just to get the feel of it if you're interested. plus....i figure all the poser stuff i DON'T buy entitles me to an occasional program if i get a deal.

Poppi, I don't even have money for food. I'm in horrible shape. worse than you can imagine. I'd love Lightwave, but then I'd like to replace this fine Piece-O-Shit computer too. I don't even have the wherewithal to care for myself, let alone buy software. But aside from my beloved MAX, I also have Cinema 4D V5, Truespace 3, Wings, all of which were free. And I'm startin to feel like I'm being left behind since I'm on MAX 3.1 and everyone else is on 5 lol. But it pretty much does what I want it to do. I just have to get way better at texturing. I won't feel like I've succeeded till they take one of my images at Raph.com. Man they're hard. Poser, I still have the old version of Poser. I only use it to export people into MAX, and I don't use the textures from poser so what the heck lol. I've been trying to learn how to modify poser figures in MAX on the polygon levels, but the centers of rotation and some other things are messed up in a way I don't understand yet. What I'd really like is something good for organic modeling. Much as I love MAX, it isn't very good at it. I thought Amorphium had potential, but it doesn't work on my puter for some reason. My puter keeps gettin slower and slower. It's like it's losing memory but everything still works right and there are no errors like memory going bad. and I keep it defragged and all, so I think it's just gettin old. Either that or the things I'm trying to do are too much for a 500 mhz machine. Tho the net is slowing down for me too. Either way, this computer sucks. My skills are way beyond the amount of processing power I have available.

bones...you mean making morphs the old fashioned way? that you can get a handle on. i started out doing just that....with an old version of the freebie anim8or. i'm sorry to hear that things are going so badly. you need to get out of texas, pal. so many of the good things in my life come from simply being around others, wheelin' and dealin' so to speak. some weeks i get free lunches all week long...and they're big enough to have lots of leftovers for dinners. living isolated, the way you do has got to be a bad thing. perhaps, even more of a city would help...even if it was in texas. i need a new computer, too....but, i'm workin' on it. the guy who owns the Net2Go store across the hall at work has a decent one that he may sell me. i just have to wear him down a bit more. bones...we can't change who we were born to be. i'd give you some hope and optimism and all that if i could. but, some of us are born sunny and some of us are brooders. me, my mom always said i was as deep as a mud puddle, and not smart enough to take the time to worry. yup...that sums it up. if i could give some of that to you, i surely would. i'll look around my town and see what can be bought. we are having a very bad recession, and i know almost everyone in town...at least the ones who have businesses. and, yeah, the free lunches and, well, even drinks from the local bar, sent to my desk no less...that indicates that those of us who are year-rounders do practice the barter system. i probably bought the ONLY lightwave in town...but, heyas...i might stumble across another good deal and, i surely will let you know. (and, the BEST thing...i actually had money at the SAME time the building owner's son was selling his lightwave.) stuff like that will let me die happy. hugs to you, my old friend, Pop...Pop...Poppi!!!

Yeah, I don't get outta the house much. I suppose you would call me housebound. It'd be nice to have people around and stuff, though I'm not exactly a lively companion, since I don't walk at all well, and don't drink, well, rarely drink lol. I have no vehicle, so that makes it hard for me. I reallu hate that, but after ,y Blazer was totaled, I just haven't had the money to get another vehicle. My computer, my art, my writing and my movies mean everything to me. Tho a kitty would be nice lol. I've grown very interested in ferrets too. Cute lil weasels. I get frustrated by not being better at what I do than I am. I want to be so damn good, you know. I mean really good. Astoundingly good. I hate being second rate at anything I do lol. I'm trying to model something now with splines and surface and I've done it three times and it still ain't comin out right. But I'll get the hang of it by golly, and I did learn something new from it that will be useful in the future. I wish I was better at polygon modeling but, well, my eyes aren't as good as I like and it's hard for me to see properly to do all the stuff there. But, if I live long enough I'll get somethin lol.

Ok, so here's my lizard's back legs. Sorry it's not according to the tut you mentioned Poppi, but I don't have anything with nurbs that I can use yet. Posting now 'cos I already feel the legs are going out of control, but not sure why - anyone brave enough to tell me what I've done wrong? regards peejay

you need some sort of place that is small and friendly. our downtown is a 3 square block area....and, walking to work is something many of us do. (parking is EXPENSIVE). can't you find some small coastal tourist town in texas, and set up shop...like padre island? find a place with an alternative lifestyle of sorts....like THIS PLACE, i live in...just not quite the twilight zone, more like living in a carnival. pack up your troubles, and move on down the road. granted it will be a process...but, if you want something badly, it can come to be. if you could just find a spot where you could get up and out with real folks, being "the best" modeller wouldn't mean so much....and, guess what??? your creativity factor, which DOES make the whole world of difference would probably skyrocket. if i lived where you live, and, wasn't planning on leaving...i would simply die....i'd set my mind to it, and, just die. (one of my aunts did that...she told everyone at christmas that she was soooo unhappy with her life that she would die before june. she died in mid may. she willed it. no one stopped her, either, 'cause her life did suck. so, you need to worry about moving. that's it. i've spoken. a change of scene, where you could get out and about, more would make the world of difference. my aunt, who killed herself with her mind did live in the COUNTRY... that's it. that's right!!! that's right, that's right, that's right!!! and, yes, you should get a pet. how about a cockatiel? they are the very small version of my poppi...but, they can talk, and sit on you all the time...and, are great buddies, not to mention conversation starters. cheery sunny little birds, they are.

peejay....i have wings, too. for the legs, i would select by the whole polygon, then use the "bump" command...extrude a bit, then scale....then hit vertice selection...and move ever so slightly in most likely the x position. i like wings, alot. it's a way cool app. or, just finish it up the way you're going and edit the points on the inner legs. you have a really good handle on this tutorial i see.

I'm not allowed pets here poppi. Besides, I couldn't buy food for em. I'd like to move, but I'm not physically able to even pack and move so I'd need help, and having no money or vehicle, no way to get there. I miss my ocean and mountains and trees in Northern Calif. I ain't plannin on dyin lol. My life has small joys in it. Not much but I have a few. Besides, I'm too damn stubborn. Though I have recently set up with someone to check on me every couple of days because I've been extremely ill and I don't wanna be one of those dead people that lay around the house for a week. that's just rude. And Peejay, the legs look good to me. I can't do anything at all in wings lol. I'd flatten the feet out a bit and lengthen the toes and make claws though.

I ain't plannin on dyin lol. My life has small joys in it. Not much but I have a few. and when it all boils down to dust...those "small joys" are what were important. my whole life has been made up of "small joys". lol at you for the "that's just rude" comment...that's one reason why you can get certain condos waaay cheap, here in south florida. over a week brings property values down at least 15, even 20k. ahhh....the smell of chlorine bleach in the morning. :*)

Any app ok? I would like to do a lizard Poppi. I started modeling with Blender and then moved to Rhino. Now I find Zbrush can model organics fast and easy. With its built in mapping and texturing tools it is all I need.

I am currently trying to use Maya 4.5 Bryce 5 and Poser 4 for modeling... I wish colledges around here had some 3d animation classes, but sadly I must sit here and try to figure things out by myself.