I see stuff in the store I would expect to see in free stuff, Why has the stuff in the store taken a sudden downward spin in quality, Those who produce the good quality items know who they are. Stupi part of this is people have to search loads of junk to find anything good now. Sure I know people want to make a buck, But do yo have to be tacky to do it?

While I agree with you that the store is filling up with stuff I'd never buy even if I had unlimited money, we should remember that one mans junk is another man's treasure. Also don't discount the fact that bandwidth is no longer 'free' so even giving away something cost money. What used to be freestuff quality is now more like low-cost quality. My only issue with some merchants is the folks who so overprice their low quality items. Some people should honestly research the market they are selling to.

How about a quality rating system, Like low quality items, quality items and premium items?

maybe you need a 'sale' rack..;)

searching pages and pages and pages, of flea market items is no fun when your looking for something worth buying. I don't wantto stomp all over the little guy but come on, cheap is cheap, Don't we all complaint and rant when we go into a store and see cheap stuff staring at us off the shelf? This is a community of artist yes and one mans junk is another mans treasure at times, yes. But I saw stuff in there people did just for the sake of having something to sell like a cheap light set, Or cheap textures, Or a 3 minute mesh model. cheap is cheap, Im sure Im not the first to mention this. how about a price search system, If I put in a search of 20.00 I would be able to ovoid all the crap.

Don't count on the $20 to get rid of the crap, and you'll lose some great itmes that way. On your list a good half of the items are under $20. And some people put a $20 or even $30 price for something I wouldn't give away. A rating scale sounds nice, but a lot of people very happy with a product wouldn't remember or bother to add a good rating, but one customer with a bone to pick about something very minor would, so the rating would be "poor" when the product is actually excellent. All part of the way the 'sity works. It's a wide open venue, unlike Daz or rDNA who have only a few content creators on staff. Here anyone can sell anything so long as it passes the 'sity's product testing. And, as has been said before, one man's trash is another man's treasure. I've paid good money for things that probably no one else wanted, but I had a real need for. They were crap products, but it was just what I needed to finish a scene. When I was flush, I'd buy a big package for an incidental prop included. This actually is a good part of the reason I've not had the courage to actually try to sell something. I do pretty good clothing, but the textures are crap (not my strong point). I'd rather give it away than have to deal with it all, even though I'm so broke I'm drinking dry milk (which is actually pretty good in coffee).

A few suggestions: 1) If you don't like the quality of a product, make a better one of your own. 2) If you don't like the product, don't buy it. If no one else buys it, it will be moved to the Warehouse and eventually deleted. Or, at the very worst, e-mail the artist and tactfully tell him how you think the product needs improving. I'm sure he will listen, especially if you suggest that the improvements will help the product to sell.

It's one thing to sell something you spent hours making that turns out impressive, Like Billy t's Bikes, Or fantasy Vicky for example. But if your making a cheap lightset or cheap models,Anyone can make in ten minutes. Then your just taking advantage of the store because you see doller signs. Your out to just make a buck on anything you can rather then to deliver quality merchandise to the poser community. And that means your trying to suck what you can out of the poser community by deliveriung cheap merchandise and taking advantage of the store system because you see it as a fast chance to make a buck off someone. But some of us notice you guys because of all the junk we need to sort through at the store.

That is constructive, But I think alot of these guys don;t care if thier stuff is cheap as long as they can get some sucker to buy it.

Jeez, i hope you dont lump me in that group of bad products when mine hits. I'm more scared now than i was.

that rise an important question i often asked myself: what is the point/edge between items worth selling and item that only worth being freebies ? I mean 1st of course art is subjective in a way, but what do people expect to find in commercial packages/items and what are they indulgent of for freebies ? Sometimes i see freestuff (mostly on japanese websites) that can easily match many sold items here. Also i see peopel with marvelous freebies, so do they have to even make better that good items to allow themselves sellign them ? also someone told about the bandwidth usage and such. I was dumped thrice in a month by "free" webhosts, and believe me, finding a 100mb (least) capacity, withotu add (or at least popup), and unlimited file size (freebies can go above the 1 or 2mb limit most hosts allow for free) and month bandwidth. Well finding such a gem was an heroic task ! After that point the least expensive hosting solutions with unlimited bp and file size limit are somehow above 15$ a month... personnaly i only make freebies cause i ma a beginner and i do not see myself worthy enough yet when i saw many wuality freebies and products here, so i have to learn and i do not rush.. But of course would i be forced to PAY to offer people freebies, i sure would give up at once ! I think it is a legitimate attitude: offerin free stuff for free, but offerign freestuff at oneself's expense, i dont think it is fair

"how about a price search system, If I put in a search of 20.00 I would be able to ovoid all the crap. " lol, not really. ive seen some horrible quality items that i wouldnt pay $5 for (hell, i probably wouldnt waste bandwidth downloading them if they were free) at 'hopeful' prices of $20 or more. i think the worst are clothing add-on textures that cost twice as much as the actual clothing pack itself (and sometimes the add-on textures are far lower quality than the original ones that came with the clothing). or poses for $15+. ive been working on a pose pack for months, and they will be released along with hi-res props some are tailored for, but i wouldnt dream of asking more than $6-9 even though i know they are far higher quality than most of the pose packs out there. i feel that new merchants should whet their teeth on freestuff FIRST, then hit the store with a lower priced item around $5-8 to let customers sample their merchandise. just seems to me like some people make an item, then sit there and think 'should i put this in freestuff? naw.. wait - i will put it in the marketplace at $20 and see if it sells'. the whole 'see if it sells' attitude irks the hell out of me. if you submit something to this already flooded marketplace then youd better be damned sure in advance that it will sell. this isnt a testing ground, or a flea market. if as a merchant someone is 'offended' by this post then all i can say is they dont belong in sales. its a competitive market, and people that approach it with a 'lets see if this will sell' attitude are not going to get very far. cheers, -gabriel (Blackhearted)

Don't be intimidated by MM's negative attitudes, lobo75. There are plenty of us who are rooting for the newbies, and would love to see what you have to offer. I'd also like to enter the fray when I feel ready, and there's no way I'm going to be intimidated by either those whose talent vastly exceeds mine, or those who don't "get" the very fine suggestions that JohnRender made, above. I'm sure we've all seen some "junk" in the marketplace, but as other have said, that's a subjective evaluation, and not one that gets expressed very frequently. Caveat emptor: It's up to the buyer to do their best to consider whether or not the product they're looking for is worth spending money on. If they decide that it is, that doesn't mean that the merchant is taking a sucker for a ride. Everyone has to start somewhere. No content provider is born with top-notch talent. This would be a good time to praise Renderosity's brokerage system; it gives us beginners a chance to step into the pool, generate feedback, develop a reputation (and hopefully, skills,) and to make a little extra cash. I do think that the marketplace's search engine is far too crude for such a huge store, though. Improvements and better options for refined searches might help to alleviate the pain that the impatient and judgemental persons are suffering. :-) As a democratic capitalist, I like the diversity of the Rosity MP. I see plenty of things that I feel are silly, crass, needless, or undesirable in there, but such is the way of free enterprise. And as we all know, with a little patience, you can find plenty of great deals and treasures.

There aren't many textures in your list. Does that mean you lump textures in with the "crap"? Just checking - I'm a texture artist and I think MY stuff is nice ;o). Laurie

Oh, and I spend 15 bucks a month to give folks freebies too. It's worth it to me, especially if I see folks are getting use from them. The stuff I sell by no means is making me any money. It just helps to offset the exorbitant cost of my Poser addiction...LOL. Laurie

But then you never know about textures... The textures in my Ichiro package are awful. I hate them. The cloths are good though. I know of someone who's doing a for-sale set of clothing for the Fantasy package, and it's great! So, the clothing is free, the really good textures are going to cost a bit (but not much), with part going to charity. Well worth the price if you like my cloths, but hate my textures (like me). It still will come down to Cavient Emptor (sp?, my latin is VERY rusty). You don't really know quality until you buy it. Of course, some items have been overdone. How many light sets and camera poses are available? Now, how many are really different? I've gotten so many as freebies from different sites, or as part of another package I'd never buy a set of lights and cameras. Unless. A big unless. It had something so different and innovative that I had to try it. It's like P5 materials. I bought a couple of really good P5 material sets (The3DWizard's is the best). But I doubt if I'd ever buy another. I got what I wanted from the first two sets, and used how them as a basis for hundreds of my own. It's the same with lights. Get one good set, and there are tons of free ones out there, and learn enough so you never have to buy another. Poses are the same way. I get a few good poses in a set, and can use those as a basis for my own. A pose set has to be really different to get me to even look.

LaurieA, I know you're smart enough not to take the opinion of one person as an actual indictment. Your textures ROCK! And your freebies are appreciated. I agree that MM's list includes many outstanding products, I've bought several myself, but you make a point...things like textures can be so crucial. I recently purchased Karanta's beautiful and unusual reflection maps, which can be used to amazing effect. I value them and use them more than several meshes and character sets I have.

let me clarify my above post before someone says im trying to keep newbies from having a chance - which is wrong. the attitude that annoys me most is the 'see if it will sell' attitude that a lot of people seem to harbor, and i think that as a merchant you should know in advance if that item will sell. how does a merchant know, you ask? look at your product. look at whats included in your package. look at other competitive products in the marketplace. look at the price of your product, and other products like it in the marketplace (also note how many products like it are in there).. now ask yourself - am i offering something of value? something competitive? would I buy this? thats how you know. cheers, -gabriel (Blackhearted)

Yep, there are a few texturers who's stuff I GOTTA have... LaurieS LisaB Elusion Silverleif Studios ByteMeOK Catharina Harders Morris Ecstasy Handspan Studios I guess I too have a tendency to buy from artists that I KNOW are really, really good. Texture, mesh or otherwise. I buy from the same one's over and over. But I don't really mind wading thru the stuff I don't want. Sometimes it even can give an inspiration or two. ;o) Laurie

Gabriel, you've got a new handle! Laurie

naw just a nick for my photography gallery - didnt want my poser/3d gallery getting flooded by my photos.

Intertesting thread this one. I recently put something into the marketplace, 17 2560x1920 photos of forests/woodland that I was visiting last weekend. They're over 22mb due to the hi-quality size of the files and I got, what I thought, were very nice and usuable background shots. I considered giving them away, but I don't have the kind of hosting plan to offer those sizes of files. So I've put them in the store for $6.50 for 17 of the best (I took over 50). If somebody wants them and can use them, great, if not, doesn't matter to me, doesn't cost me anything to have it in the store but I might recoup a small cost of my camera. That's the attitude I took with it, if I hadn't put them in the store, nobody would've got them, now if somebody really wants that sort of thing, it is available for them. Best wishes Jody

Gabriel, you make a lot of smart real-world points. I'll keep 'em in mind when I'm ready to market something.

As much as we probably don't want to admit it, Mesh has a point. I can still remember an especially terrible Mike texture where the seams were obvious all over the place (including a closeup that almost brandished the seam between the head and neck), and I wondered, hey, anyone minding the store here? Textures? Hey, if it's just taking it into Photoshop and playing with the Hue/Saturation/Lightness levels just so you can get 25 different looks from one piece of work, then I tend to get a little POd. And I'm seeing way too much of that these days.

Since Rosity is the true 'flea market' of the 3D world, where anyone can sell anything, you have to put up with junk. There are pearls in the rubbish heap, you just have to look for them. The downward spiral is not sudden at all - it's been going on for a long time. But at the same time, the best stuff is gettign even better as the top end get even better at making stuff. When someone tries to sell a primitive 'table' made up of a few vertices slapped together in a basic modeler, for $15 or something, it gives me a good laugh. In 3DS format if you're not careful. And then you find Quarker's incredible hair for $6.95 and you go 'Oooh yeah!' Or BAT outfits for $5! :] Fish

well my take on this, in the past 5 months I've been a merchant the amount of merchants has increased by a bit over 30%. In my opinion that is quite a bit... so with all the new merchants, you are going to see a wider range of quality... not saying that the low end should go below a certain point, but the higher end quality items will go higher, thus making the low end seem lower... the evolution of the Renderosity Marketplace... :-)

I think it is funny about the whole texture thing and how they cost more than the original item. What is up with that? I realize there's a certain process involved with making a decent texture, but c'mon..

Just as art being subjective, I prefer to think this type of thought being descriminating. Even if you think this way, it doesn't have to be pinpoint in public in such a manner. Renderosity's acceptance of merchant stuffs made me think of diversity. If there are no 'loads of junk' as you mention, will you appreciate the 'good quality items' more? I have seen quite a few artists, when they first started selling, their items were average, but then as they create more stuffs, it gets better. If they were not given a chance to sell their first product, will they turn up 'good quality items' someday? I've also seen some merchants with 'see if it will sell' or 'I just need to sell 1' attitude, but well if people do purchase their products, it's their business. Maybe it's not as bad as you think. I don't really mind glancing through the marketplace, afterall you can just click for details on what's attractive to you.

I usually just look at "what's new" and "what's on sale" unless I'm looking for something specific. Doesn't seem all that overwhelming to browse...and sometimes I see something I'd like that isn't advertised on the forum. I rarely look at the "what's hot" because that's as predictable as the "hot 20" but I do look at the whole stores of some vendors to make sure I'm not missing something of someone who I particularly like. I also think "junk" depends on the viewer. I wouldn't spend a dime on some stuff, no matter how great the quality theoretically is, because it has zero interest to me. Some of things I collect like mad, many of you wouldn't take a second glance at. That's okay with me...I support vendors that produce items that appeal to me and I don't waste time on the ones I know focus in areas of no interest. It doesn't take that long to figure out which is which.

Truly Milla, I keep lowering the prices on my textures with each thing I make. Here and other places you can't go lower than 5 dollars, even if you want to unless you are invited to do textures for one of the clubs (Platinum Club, ProClub at PoserPros, RDNA Real Deals). I've even tossed around the idea of placing a store for my textures on my own website, but I think it would be cost-prohibitive to do so with the small amount that I sell. Contrary to what some might think, textures are a lot of work - lots of trial and error, lining up seams, etc. Even with all that being said, I agree that lower prices will actually make more money in sales due to the fact that more folks will be able to afford and buy them. After all, this Poser business is for the most part a hobby for most of the members of the site. But I don't want to devalue my work either. Sometimes I work on a texture set for weeks and weeks. Laurie

hmm.. i think were on different wavelengths here.. by 'poor quality', i dont refer to the type of items people create, or the amount of skill they have in creating them. im referring to pricing, and item value. someone might not be the greatest texture artist out there, but if they spend the time and create their product right, with no bugs or thrown-together stuff, and price it to give the customer fair value for their money - they will have a successful product. again, this ties into my annoyance with the 'marketplace experimentation' and 'lets see if itll sell' attitude. you dont just throw a product together and use the marketplace as a testing ground to see if people will buy it. its not a testing ground, its a store that many of us take very seriously. you dont have to be the most highly skilled person in the world to create a solid product, you just need to be willing to invest the time and effort, and price-position it to give the customer true value for their money. because thats what this all boils down to - value. thats why things like poses sell. sure, everyone can create them. but a lot of time goes into proper natural poses, and people are willing to spend a few bucks for the convenience of not having to spend that exhausting amount of time to get them right. some people would rather pay $5 to save that time, others on mere principal would rather do it themselves, or dont place such a high value on their time. when you create a product you need to keep the following things in mind: 1. is a product on this level, or a better one, already available for free? (ie: if you model a bankers lamp for poser, and theres already two much higher resolution, more realistic ones in freestuff, forget it). 2. would the average poser user be able to create this product on their own relatively easily? -and if they could... 3. would it be time-consuming for them to do so? you need to provide something thats not already out there for free. it needs to be a product that the average poser user cannot create for themselves easily (ie: a 'hi-res cube' or some simple object created from poser primitives is not a good idea). if they CAN create it themselves (ie: poses, presets, lights) then make sure that you are providing them with something that saves them time. because if you dont provide them with something they cant create themselves, something that is a valuable time-saver, or something thats not already available for free, then you have no product. jarm - your product is a good one (although somewhat of a niche item), because it provides something that most people would not be able to produce themselves (few people have such high megapizel cameras). also, even if they did, its a timesaver - since it would take quite a bit of time for someone to go out and take all of those, and if someone needs them for their work its a very fair price. cheers, -gabriel (Blackhearted)

On the subject of "see if it will sell", I humbly offer up my own approach: post pics in the Poser forum and ask people. Yeah, you have a little public embarasment when people say, "Sorry, but no," but one can live with that, and I found the responses - including the "no" ones - to be very kind and well meant. As a bonus, you get constructive criticism useful in future creations. -- April "not yet to Merchant quality" Follies

I have to admit that the products Kurokuma and I release have a rather limited scope. Comparing the number of pinup renderers versus those that do combat, military, or sci-fi work gets you some pretty meager odds on the last ones. But we use them, and from our sales and wishlist reports, we know that others at least want them. And we've both been asked where to get some of the items we use, and have been asked to release them. So we did. It's a small minority out there. But at least they have a chance to use the items we create simply because we enjoy them.

Gabriel makes a lot of valid points which I think can be summed up in one sentence. There's a difference between making a product and making a buck. Everything has a value, partly decided by the market and partly by the amount of work that goes into it - but NEVER by the 'what-can-I-get-away-with-charging-here' philosophy. That's just plain crap. On the other hand.... People only learn by doing. There are a lot of good merchants who started out with small steps. People should at least be given the chance to try. We are in a democracy, right? Here's my experience. I started out 3 years ago making freebies, and have posted 40 or 50 of them at 3d commune. 2 years later, I made a photo studio for poser and brokered it through DAZ. After that a posable clock pack (ERC experiment). Since then, I've spent 9 months (on and off) making a room environment which will go out in a couple of weeks. The point of all this? Well, my freebies were pretty crap, but went down well. The DAZ stuff was better, and the forthcoming product will be (I think) amazing. So, that's a classic case of moving forward in small steps. Just think about this. If NO ONE would sell these products that MM is railing about, a lot of potentially good merchants would never even get the chance to become good. It's all very well getting praised for your free stuff, but it costs money to host, and let's face it, praise isn't much of an incentive. If you can at least make the money to cover part of your poser habit, it gived you the drive to go ahead and create more (hopefully better) stuff to sell. That's the REAL reason to allow all these products into the store. I agree there will always be crap amongst the good stuff, but hey, that's what life is like too. And who ever told you the net would be any different? mac

I've bought textures for Mike here that were around $20 and they didn't look anything like the image that was posted on the seller's page. I also agree that many texture items are nothing more than rip-offs of other people's work. Some textures even look like they came from DAZ. I have also bought some of the "junk" items and have been disappointed that the item wasn't the same as advertised. Complaining to the merchant doesn't do any good and they never list the negative comments on the product page which is suspicious in my opinion.

youve kindof contradicted yourself. i dont disagree, but: youve pointed out that youre moving forward. your early stuff, released for free, you admit wasnt that great (ive never seen it so just going by what you say here). then you released at daz afterwards, and now have another product here. well - thats what i think every budding merchant should do. start out with freestuff - build up a userbase through there, and then when they feel they have items with real value put them up for sale in the MP. "If NO ONE would sell these products that MM is railing about, a lot of potentially good merchants would never even get the chance to become good." noones saying they shouldnt sell them - just that many of them really belong in freestuff. cheers, -gabriel

"and they never list the negative comments on the product page which is suspicious in my opinion. " i dont think that merchants should have the ability to toggle comment visibility. if some comment is truly inappropriate or untrue, or a flame attempt by someone who just doesnt like the merchant then a simple message to an admin will have it removed. i display every comment. i believe i have one thats negative - its on the way i organise my filestructure and names not the product itself - and i have that displayed with all the rest. cheers, -gabriel (Blackhearted)

But finding hosting for freebies is a monumental pain at the moment, with pop-ups and spyware on the free pages, irritating many forumites, and several member-run hosting sites closing because of abuse. Unless you can pay for a full site of your own there are very few options.

Dam what a sad old time we are all haveing, the only thing i want to say is that over the last few months iv,e seen the free stuff drop right off, i think more people are selling there stuff, than offering it for free, the reason i first came here when i started with poser was for the free stuff to be honest, i think ever one should have a hard think about what is going on here, when you first start out on Poser your not looking to spend money your looking for freebees, by offering good free content you get people to go to the store to look for better content for Poser, im glad this issue has being raised mabe we can find some way to get things back on the right track, well people take care, and please dont take things the wrong way for what i have said is true... cya all..

ford3auss, youre very right. you know whats frightening? when i started out here there were under 400 merchants. now that number has more than tripled in under two years. the average quality of products in the marketplace has dropped as well. not saying there arent good ones - in fact there are many talented new merchants. however, it seems to me that a lot of people are attracted to the marketplace by the lure of making easy money -- little do they know theres no such thing. meanwhile the massive deluge of these 'lets see if it sells' products is diluting the marketplace.

Gabriel, I understand your point and agree with you. But my point is that in the first 2 years, when I was learning, it all went out as free stuff. I only went to DAZ when I had something I believed was worth the money and the months of work I put into it. That's probably what a lot of merchants are NOT doing. IOW, they're selling what should be free. mac PS small correction 'then you released at daz afterwards, and now have another product here' No, both products are at DAZ.

To clarify, I'll repeat what I said earlier. There's a difference between making a product and making a buck. mac

Blackhearted, you are one off the reason i have not give up on this place, you free content has all ways being great and still is so please dont take my comment to be directed to you or any off the other great people who grace us with there freebies, the people who offer good content know who thay are so i wont waste your time or mine, i just get sad when i come here and see whats happen people, it,s so hard for us all these day,s to make a living, so a little give and take is what will make this place go a head and not back , like i said before this issue is very real for all the people who grace these pages, so every one should have a long hard think about there products, and what thay are offering, well people take care...

MM doesn't have much of a variety there. His tastes seem to be quite limited. So naturally whatever doesn't fit into his idea of what is good is 'crap'. Bet he thinks all the Koshini stuff is crap. LOL The problem is NOT quality. If you want quality, it's there. The problem is quantity even of quality stuff. That's fine with me..more to choose from.

spit - theres no way to 'tactfully' approach this discussion - no matter what, people's feelings are going to get hurt. there is a problem in the marketplace. but i do know that renderosity is working on it. i think a stricter set of guidelines as to what is accepted and what isnt is the way to go, also a stricter set of guidelines as to product promos. runtime DNA is going about it the right way. i think that, first off, 3 product promos should be NECESSARY, not optional. i think its owed to the customer to give them at least 3 previews of the product youre expecting them to spend their money on. i also think that at least a committee should look over the marketplace submissions and at LEAST give advice on the price. ie: if someone puts a set of 4 poses in the marketplace and expects $30 for it, you KNOW its not going to sell. i think some intervention on the part of the marketplace staff should be made there to advise the person to lower the price to something more realistic. the marketplace staff could also look over the products that arent selling so well, and perhaps give the merchant some feedback and suggestions - ie: how to present it, what possible improvements/upgrades can be made, etc. cheers, -gabriel

Crap is something someone tossed together just to make a buck, Something anyone can do in a few minutes. Sure they may have saved someone 2 or 3 minutes by selling that stuff but come on.

1. a person should make an item they know will sell and that will be in high demand. 2. Don,t do it because your trying to make a buck real quick. 3. take your time in developing your store items and remember people expect the items to be well created. 4. remember copy rights on star trek and star wars do not belong to you. 5. people have to browse the stores many pages, Dont't cluitter it up with your junk if your just trying to make a buck and sacrificing good quality.

Koshini looks like a toy little girls used to play with.

By the way if you put me down for the items I purchased just remember that insult carrys over to the merchants I purchased from. You might want to tone down your remark that I have nop sence of taste based on my merchant list.

Im not negative I just think some people sell stuff just to make a buck. It may seem that way but in reality Im really a nice guy, I just have stong opinions about some things, Is that supposed to make me the bad guy?

I didn't say you have no sense of taste, just said it was limited to a few types of things.