First of all, until the "lead-in" to this forum gets modified, it would appear that as long as a message posted in here relates in any way to Poser-related information (meaning, also, information that "Poser people" might be interested in), the mods will seem to be a bit hypocritical moving a lot of the examples that were given to another forum. After all, it does say: "Poser (75 new messages) [Hide this Forum] Moderators: Lyrra, kbennett, ladynimue Post your Poser related messages here" Why create specific forums for specific topics if it's not going to be enforced? Why are some OT threads left in here when others are moved? I think everyone one knows where to go look for the latest items for sale and the latest ones for free. It's my understanding the "Free Repository" here is one of the big attractions to R'City. How would anyone EVER decide if advertising is going on in a thread (e.g., A known salesperson posts a picture/render that just happens to have a new model of some type in it. No mention of selling it. No mention of 'Do you think this will sell?' Just a render. Then others see it and comment on and and then someone asks if it's going to be sold. Perhaps an innocent question or perhaps a friend 'helping' their salesperson friend. Then, the salesperson gets to reply, 'Yes, I think I am, now that I've had time to think about it.' ... or many variations thereof.) Removing various types of postings to this forum because it makes people have to scroll and go through several pages of stuff just to see the info they expect to see in this forum doesn't save time for the people who want to see WIP, new items being developed for the MP, copyright information, etc. IF they THEN have to separately "march" to each of those forums seeking it (which in turn takes time). Though I think Dodger is very smart, very witty, (having seen a lot of his discussions here and there), and very talented, HIS post, arguably, should have gone in the "Improvement" forum. But, refer to my first remark. Or not. OK, I'm done.

Ok....here goes: 1. Depends on "how technical" 2. yes 3. yes 4. sure....why not 5. no 6. hmmmmm....not sure it does much good 7. maybe 8. yes 9. sure 10. what's that? 11. sure 12. no 13. yes 14. yes 15. yes Can I leave now?

So, like, KateTheShrew was like: 'When I want to know what's "new" in the marketplace, I gasp actually go to the marketplace and hit the "what's new" button. I know, it's a radical concept, but hey, whatcha gonna do?' That doesn't show you anything but what's on Renderosity. It doesn't who you what's new at DAZ. It doesn't show you what's new at RDNA. It doesn't show you what's new at 3DCommune. It doesn't show you what's new at any other site. Sure, you could go to those sites to see what's new, but things aren't going to be represented in a fair comparison basis in a single forum. Moreover, what about when a new site starts up? You're not going to even know about the site. One of the things about Renderosity that is nice (as opposed to places which I won't mention cough3DComnCough that have done some very insecure appearing things like insisting that no off-site products be advertised, Renderosity has been nice and allowed other brokerages to tout their wares in the PS forum here. KateTheShrew, I respect you on a lot of levels, but this whole 'I'm glad the merchants can't post their WIPs here so I don't have to see them, and if I want to see new things I'll look in the marketplace' argument is just bullshit. It's an example of the sort of segregation I'm talking about in pure form. Chuck, you may be right, though the subject at hand does very specifically relate to this forum and not other forums. It's about what should be posted here and thus of interest to those who post here and read here. One other thing to note, to all... Segregation is not the sort of matter that should be decided by a case of 'Majority Rules'. If it were, there'd still be four bathrooms in the establishments that even allowed blacks. There'd stil be sections on the bus, and Rosa Parks would have died in jail unremembered. The Chinese would only be allowed to live in Chinatown, and the gutterpunks would not be allowed by law to spange on the street or even hang out because people don't like the looks of 'em. Wait -- hang on -- that last one is true. When you let people vote themselves bread and circuses, they will -- and they'll vote that someone of a different 'class' (which is really what we merchants are) can't have them. As a result, I'm not appealing to a democratic majority. I'd guess that the democratic majority would be perfectly happy to discriminate against my art because I'm going to sell it and not allow me to show off my WIPs -- any of them because right now I have to spend ALL of my time creating things that will bring in money, and I don't have much time to make things that won't, or will even cost me money to host. I'm appealing directly to the sense of justice of the powers that be here to make a decision with fairness in mind. That means if WIPs by merchants that are intended to be sold when they are done aren't allowed, then WIPs by non-merchants shouldn't be, either. I'd like to categorise this to content creation... characters, textures, pose sets, props, and so on... but in all fairness, it should be applied to everything, even pictures, as ANY of us could at any time decide one of our works was good enough to sell and put it up on Zazzle or Cafe Press or get prints made to sell at a convention. That's a merchant WIP when that happens, even retroactively.

Some things that might make a difference, at least in concept (I'm not suggesting that all or any of these be done, but they are simply thoughts): 1) Require a tag for anything that is advertising. Even if the coders don't want to implement a change to the forum, make it a requirement that any subjects advertising anything at all begin with '[AD]' in the subject line. Likewise '[TS]' ('Tech Support'), '[TT]' ('Tech Tips' or' Too Technical') and '[OT]' tags could be mandatory and threads which contain said content and do not have them can be deleted or modified to have them as need be. You could even stack the tags -- for instance, if I were to post a picture of my Samurai Armour WIP and explain how I did the faux-bumpiness that actually wraps around instead of going flat on the edge, I would begin the subject with '[AD][TT]'. 2) Implement ignore-by-user capability. This has been a big suggestion here by me anyway. Make it so you can ignore an individual -- any threads they start will be hidden and any messages in other threads will be marked 'Ignored' and not displayed. Not only would this help stop a lot of flamewars when people who consistently piss other people off can be shunned on an individual basis, but if someone flooded the Pose forum with lots of ads, you could ignore them and never see their posts rather than punishing an entire socioeconomic class. 3) Simply make the rule that no one is allowed to mention price and/or location of sale of any WIP that is intended to be sold. People could ask, but responses would have to be IMs as you could not post the answer. This way I could very simply post my M3 Samurai and not say a word that it was going to be for sale at DAZ or that it was going to cost however much. Note that in my posts I don't believe I did that (if I did it was in response to a question). I'm not going back to check right now, but this is further underscored by the fact that Clint actually IMed me asking where I was planning to sell it, and I had to tell him that by contract I had to offer it to DAZ first, and that I thought it was likely to go in there.

"Chuck, you may be right, though the subject at hand does very specifically relate to this forum and not other forums. It's about what should be posted here and thus of interest to those who post here and read here." True, Dodger. The reason I said 'arguably'. One COULD argue that getting the forums straigtened out is a Community Improvement idea. One that should be argued/discussed with admins in the approach of improving the community (i.e., "governing the forums" with rules). As I said at the beginning of my post, as it stands now, just about anything that has the word, Poser, in its message can be posted here by virtue of the description of the forum. So, you didn't "break" any rules. Besides, as I ALSO said, I would refrain from debating the issue into any detail with you as I have already given you credit for being quite intelligent. And, I'm not upset. I can envision "our" discussion happening quite nicely across the table from each other with two beers sitting between us...grin...assuming you imbibed in the first place.

assuming you imbibed in the first place No, afraid you'll have to imbibe in th first place. 'll imbibe in the second place. If you have a head start I have a better chance B^) I was just agreeing with you, really. See, my goal isn't to get off-topic posts moved out completely, it's to have such posts be treated fairly -- and I'm coming from a point of view where I don't see any of the above as really being off-topic, because it's a cascade. Poser Tech is a subcategory of Poser. Product Showcase isn't, but most of the content is. A dissertation on reflection maps or a rant at Poser in general about why it will allow me to load two props from a figureResFile/geomHandlerGeom style load, but it won't save them to a file properly afterwards (just hit that one, grr), to me, is certainly Poser content. A show-off of one's latest costume for a Millenium Person is also Poser content. For sale or not. And, as much as I hate to admit it, that creepy looking toonimal fish is also poser content. I think it should all be welcome or, if sorting is gonna be mandatory, then it should all be pigeonholed.

Dodger, I have to say that the respect is mutual, but on this issue I'm afraid we're going to disagree on some points. You are absolutely correct about the limitations of the marketplace "what's new" and I'm in total agreement that this method will only show you what's new at each individual site. I have always thought that a mandatory "AD" tag would be perfectly acceptable. It would make it much easier to scroll through and only look at ads on the days when one has the time to spare. But, the PTB didn't go that direction. If they had, I daresay things would be much easier to deal with as the mods would only have to activate a forgotten tag rather than move entire threads and the community itself wouldn't be in such an uproar. I don't like advertising. I'm inundated with it in my daily life, and quite frankly, I'm sick to death of it. That's why I want some way to identify it BEFORE I open a post, so I can avoid it but those who want to see it can do so. I know which places I like to shop, I know what their upload schedules are and I arrange my shopping accordingly. As for new sites, word will get out, one way or another, I'm not worried about that. Somewhere there is a middle ground that will work for pretty much everyone. We just haven't found it yet. You want to bring ads back into the forum? Fine. No problem. Just give me a tag so I can skip it if I want. But if you're not going to give me the option of knowing beforehand that a post is an ad, then I'm gonna bitch and moan until you do. Fair enough? :) Kate (who has turned into a cranky, grouchy old biddy lately and hopes she'll outgrow this phase really soon)

1. Absolutely not. Again, if the topic is the Poser Forum, what does having a baby or the weather have to do with Poser? I know people like to be social, but isn't that what the other forums are for? Create a "Off-Topic Forum" for these kinds of general posts. Oh, wait, there already is one. Soon, Poser-related threads get buried under "my new baby", "hot weather here", "did you see that movie", "CD's are unreliable" and so on. 6. Um, no, this is what the Copyright Forum is for. 8. Absolutely not. If Renderosity Merchants can't post ads (which, in turn, would sell items here, which would then make money for the site), why should outside vendors be allowed to post ads? Ah... a loophole! If I sell something at my site, can I advertise in the Poser Forum, even though that item may also be for sale here? Technically, the post is for an "outside vendor". hehehe. cool. I may try that. Look for my posting soon.

Surely the point is scale and blatancy - if the Forum starts drowning in "nippy today, isn't it" or "lookit, ain't this cool - why yes, at DAZ in three weeks" threads clamp down, if it's minor and not prompting complaints then relax. The mods may be pretty zombified by day's end, but they aren't robots. Basically, my answers to LadyNumue's questions would be yes to all, but in moderation for 5, 6, 8, extreme moderation for 12 (unless it takes off in a nice way) and some moderation on 4 (depending on how "addy" it is)

1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Yes 4. Yes, though totally done shots sould be in the Product Showcase. 5. Yes and no. I would like to see them be able to be asked but then linked (not moved) to the OT forum. That way they get notice but aren't cluttering the forum. 6. Once again, link and lock. 7. Yes 8. No 9. Sure, A good option though I might not look 10. Yes 11. Yes 12. No 13. Yes 14. Yes 15. Yes

1. yes 2. yes 3. yes 4. yes, but in a WIP forum 5. No 6. No, not in this forum 7. No 8. In the showcase forum 9. yes 10. yes 11. yes 12. only poser related 13. only in a WIP forum 14. yes 15. yes

I have no problem with a WIP forum. That would not be segregation, just seperation, which is different. Having a WIP forum for all WIPs regardless of intended price tag, if any, would seperate on the basis of content, not segregate on the basis of economic intent. Kate, I understand your point completely. I'm not in favour of ads in here, either. I think we're not seeing eye to eye on what an ad is, however. I think that if a work in progress is shown without any marketing, without any 'see this soon at DAZ/RDNA/RMP/3DCommune/Renderotica/3DCC/PoserPros/whateverosity' rubbish or 'Only $12.99, due to be releaased soon!' or any fo that crap... if such a WIP is done AS a WIP and not as a marketing ploy (it doesn't take Einstein to figure out the difference), then it's not an ad. I posted a WIP of my M3 Samurai in here, and along with all the other people who posted WIPs, some of which were blatantly or subtly ads, many of which were not, we all got the big hook from stage left for it, either literally or at least figuratively. That was bullshit. Sure, the ones that were blatantly ads should have been moved, though again the product showcase, which showcases products that are for sale and complete, is not really the right forum for a WIP either, however commercial-sounding... still... You see on TV all the time where entertainment news covers the making of a movie in progress. There are commercials between bits of the shows. The shows are not infomercials. The movie will not be free when it comes out, and if they're covering it at all will probably make a fair amount of money, but it's still not an ad. It's coverage. Sure, the filmmakers rarely complain, and it is publicity and no one will deny that, but it's also not just a big long trailer for the movie. Not that when they do this if the trailer is out on TV it's usually played during the bit, as a commercial. Seperately. Anyway... Illusions, I can still see right up your nose. Might want to adjust the xrot forward a little bit on that.

...if such a WIP is done AS a WIP and not as a marketing ploy (it doesn't take Einstein to figure out the difference), then it's not an ad. Dodger, I won't speculate on your intentions (so please don't take it that way), but that, in a nutshell IS the problem of WIPs being posted in here. If we just use your critera listed above to determine wether it's an 'ad' or not (the only other option is to speculate on their intentions), then there WILL be a ton of new messages here every day (whoever came up with the figure '10' was probably way off base). You see, there's one big difference between the 'advertising' messages (that you feel like are being too heavily scrutinized) and the rest of the 'potentially should be in the technical/OT/hardware/whatever forums' type messages... and that is that there are 1111+ venders (and growing daily) 'just waiting' to post a bunch of 'WIP' images here if they thought they were allowed to. In the end, maybe 80-90% of those (if not higher) would ultimately be to: - build interest in the product - get maximum exposure to the future commercial product - in other words - Advertise the product. ...regardless of how thinly veiled the advertisment was (and I'd submit that it doesn't take an Einstein (or a marketing genious) to figure THAT out ;). Like you, I also have no problem with a WIP forum and that may be the best way to handle this. There may be other ways too, I'm just not comfortable with your segregation/discrimination/singled out/etc. argument, because it doesn't take into account the realities of the differences between the topics that should or shouldn't be allowed here... Sure, I see some threads here that should technically be in other forums, but the number of 'how do I make a MAT file' type threads are pretty managable compared to (what would be) the influx of "this is a WIP, not really advertising, really" type threads that would be added. Just some food for thought.

i think that in many ways, the issue isn't just advertising. i'm just as uninterested in turning the forum into a gallery as i am it becoming a home for ads. WIP being posted to a forum, not a gallery, should mean you have a question and require a response. if you do not want a discussion, do not post it to a discussion board. i believe this forum should be about an exchange of ideas, not promotion. yes, i think it should be flexible. but i also think that blatant self interest shouldn't rule this forum. i think a lot of the daz millenium previews have been understood, through people's experience with daz, to be chances to comment on their figures and perhaps change them before they come out. i say this based on threads in which previews threaded into actual discussions and requests. if that is not the intention of the previews (to actually do something with the response), then i think they should be in the product showcase. i do not think that the prestige of the seller or the possible universality of the product should be a mitigating factor. that's unfair. i'd also have to say that poser is a program, not the content meant to be used in it. if this were going to only be about poser and its functionality, then actually i think technical questions about the program are some of the only topics that should be here. the only time discussion of anybody's products (free or commercial) should be involved in a highly regulated forum would, in my opinion, be when discussing how they functioned in poser (e.g., how to load textures, how to conform it properly, etc.). not how they looked, not aren't they great meshes/textures/lights/etc., but how do they work in poser. that said, i don't think this forum will ever be locked down like that. and i wouldn't want it to be. that's just my opinion, i realize. and i think that the forum should meet the needs of community members, content creators included. but if this forum becomes a giant spam list, not only will i stop frequenting it, i bet others will too. i'm glad that you're raising your voice, _dodger, because i think dialogue is good. i also don't think there is a hard and fast solution. i don't think it's as simple as, well, we come up with a rule and there will be only black or white and no grey. oh, and i do frequent the product showcase. i've been surprised at how few people seem to post previews there. but if no one else is going, then there does need to be a way to see upcoming products. but i do disagree with you. i don't see a validity in pure advertisements being a topic of any discussion. i do think if you or ghostofmacbeth want feedback, yeah, this is a perfect place. but i don't think it should be along the lines of a "do you think i look fat in this dress" question where what is really sought is affirmation. if what you want is a showcase, make a showcase. i do think it should be a wip forum i would still expect to be about feedback and not broadcasting. and, please. this is not a case of "segregation." you're not being kicked out, your inappropriate postings are. i can't go to the bathroom in middle of a diner because of dr. king and malcolm x and countless others, i can go in and eat like everyone else. if i'm too loud, or obnoxious, or offensive, i can be kicked out on the basis of my behaviour. and they can even get the cops to help them. if all advertising posts are pulled, and all non-commercial aren't, that's perfectly fair. it's not on the basis of who you are or something irrelevant. it's a decision based on content, purpose and the established values of the community, which is the only way to make rules about conduct that i know of. segregation wasn't just found "unfair" it was found "unconstitutional," with the constitution standing as the basis for the national values and laws. segregation was found by the supreme court to be in conflict with those values. i have nothing against you making a case for advertising being a core value, but disagreeing with it doesn't make me "prejudiced." i personally see the basic or core value of this forum to be to provide support for poser users in the form of an exchange of ideas. while you are a poser user, allowing you and everyone else to flood this forum with advertisements seems out of sync with that core value. allowing you to advertise is not providing you support, it's providing you a service. my responses to the questions... 1. Yes, of course. I think a tech forum should involve non Poser technical questions. If this isn't where to ask Poser tech questions (under Software Forum: Poser), what is supposed to go here? 2. Definitely. Without the above two, I don't see a reason to come here. 3. Yes. Since this would be how the product functions in Poser, I think it would be relevant. 4. Only if they honestly want feedback and discussion, and are not just posting a "teaser". 5. Well, I'm unsure. I believe at one point _dodger himself posted about how he was really ill here, and I thought the response was both heartening (I hope he did too) and good for the community. For this to be a community, personal information has to be exchanged. It's not just "Off Topic." Maybe a Community forum? I think there definitely needs to be leeway for people to comfortably cohere. 6. Nope, because they pertain to every image, and therefore should be centralized. 7. Not here, because that's not relevant to me as a Poser user. I'd group it with 5. 8. Not at all. 9. Definitely 10. Yes. So far it's been the main way I've seen Poser used for something besides pinups. 11. No need- that's what freestuff is for, right? Or there could be a Freestuff forum. 12. No opinion, but probably not. Isn't that what ICQ, Yahoo, MS Messenger, and AIM are for? 13. Yes, but not here. - I thought that was what the Product Showcase was for. 14. Yes. 15. Oh, definitely. Discussion is good for a community.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12375&Form.ShowMessage=1396248

Here's what I think. I frequent different forums, WIP, showcase, tech, but not all the time. I tend to skip all the "ad" like announcements in this forum, not because I am not interested, but because there are so many other messages to go thru. I am only interested in ads when I am in a buying mood (I spend about $100/mon), and then I'd roam around then showcase forum or hit the marketplace looking for sales. So if some merchants prefers to put their product announcements here, he/she might have lost a customer because of my attendance habit.

WOW this topic has had me looking all over the site at Forums and galleries I never even had bothered to notioce existed!! LOL For example did you know trhere was a Work in Progress Gallery?

I think there should be a forum specificaly for complaints. These compaint threads get much too long and tend to flood forum.

There used to be one but - people complained ;).

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12375&Form.ShowMessage=1396248

did you know trhere was a Work in Progress Gallery Yup. It's the one I post to most often, since I won't put an unfinished thing intheProduct Showcase or Poser forum. Again, I'm fine with the idea of fair and even speration where all works in progress, price tag or not, will be put in a single loction. And that would get even more of the flooding WIPs out of this forum. Now, there's something else I'm wondering here... this concept spreads beyond just this forum. There are other forums which it's questionable how or what sort of things should go in them along these lines. For instance, There's a Max forum. I make all my stuff in Max. Should I or should I not post things related to the things I'm building in the Max forum? A lot of the time when I make things I'm trying to go for a specific character appearance. Should I or should I not post things related to the character or costume or figure I'm developing to the Character Creators forum? Of course, it should be fine for me to post things that I'm planning on selling here to the Merchants' forum. To claim that merchandise was off topic in the merchants' forum would be silly. Do we make such a silly claim? Finally, there's a Wishing Well forum. Am I allowed to say 'I wish there were samurai armour for Mike 3 -- Oh, wait, here's some!' in there? 2/3 of the posts in there deal with things for sale, after all. Yes, I think a WIP forum would be our best bet. Despite people havng a nagative repsonse to the idea, I do still affirm that deciding whether something is an ad or not being based on whether the person in question plans to sell it eventually is unfair and shows prejudice. If I show a picture of a hamburger, it may make you hungry or revolted, it may make you want a hamburger, and so on. Unless I tell you it's a Wendy's double stack for ninety nine cents, I haven't advertised it because you know nothing about where to buy it, how much it will be, or anything. It may be marketing. I won't deny it can be considered marketing, but advertising is only a subset or marketing, which involves lots of other things like market research ('what kind of things do you al want to see for Mike 3?'), intercorporate activities ('how far have we come in the last year?'), and even creating a public image that people will remember in some way. What? Yeah, every time a merchant posts anything however unrelated in this forum at all they are marketing. Not advertising, but marketing, for better or for worse (and usually for better). Every post I make comes with a link to my artist page with the top three products from my store that I want to sell shown on it. The more of a friend or nuisance I make of myself, the more likely someone is to follow that link and then they might just think 'Oooh, a Robot!' Every time any merchant posts a 'how to do this' or answers a 'how do I do this?' question they are selling themselves with a 'Go see my stuff, I am good at this'. Assuming they are right. Hell, even showing personality in this forum counts as marketing of a sort. Microsoft and Intel want you to think they are family-friendly politically correct companies, so every time you reinstall their crap operating system you get to see people of African descent with their grandchildren, pretty Asian girls looking like corporate higher-ups, and so on and so forth, and that's on purpose not to sell you the crap operating system which you alreadyhave (and presumably, since you're reinstalling for the 47th time, are already fed up with), but to make you think 'gee, they aren't a bunch of friendless, coldhearted cutthroat bigots'. Me, I have a sort of reputation for being like the Harlan Ellison of the Poser world. Unable and unwilling to keep my mouth shut when I feel injustice has occured, unswerving dedication to my art, and an unwillingness to sacrifice quality for sales and speed. An ornery two-fisted loudmouth who's nonetheless good at what he does and gets away with it because of that. Impossible to work with but perfect to drink with as long as you don't mind a little bit of trouble. And far too honest for most people's comfort, which is seen as tactless by half and admirably succinct by the other half. Harlan Ellison, right? Something like that anyway. And even that, though it's not any sort of an intentional construal of myself, is marketing ebcause it creates a persona (be that persona truth or glamour) that people identify with or react to which creates publicity and notice. Saying that a merchant can't do anythg that is in any way marketing in here means you have to ban them from posting.

got an inner nose fetish? Oh baby, faster, faster, I'm going to sneeze!

"A WIP forum is a good solution...a Product Development forum specifically for merchants to get feedback on their products and solicit opinions and ideas is probably better." I like this idea. If you want to see (and comment on) things that are under developent, you go to the New Product Development forum, if they want to see what's recently available and/or what's on sale you go to the Product Showcase forum... works for me.

Where's the product showcase? I've never seen it! ...or Poser technical? I've never heard of these.