Okay, It looks to me like the best way to solve your "pinching deltoid" problem is to distribute the bend more between the Collar and Shoulder groups. In the preceding images, the pose is: Left Collar: Twist: -13 Front-Back: -16 Up-Down: 31 Left Shoulder: Twist: -69 Side-Side: 4 Bend: 35 Left Forearm: Twist: 0 Side-Side: 0 Bend: -83 This first image is without morphs. The second is Muscular 1 set to 1. The third is Muscular 2 set to 1. The fourth is Muscular 3 set to 1. The fifth is muscular 3 set to 1 and Deltoid set to -1.399. If you distribute the bend between the Collar and Shoulder groups you can get a much more realistic bend on Michael's arm. We designed both Victoria 3 and Michael 3 to take advantage of this style of posing. We studied our own bodies as reference. When I raise my arm, for example, the upper arm isn't the only thing that raises, my clavicle raises also. Since we can't use real bones in Poser we use the collar group to simulate the collar bone (i.e. clavicle). So, when Michael's arm is raised, ideally, the Collar should go up with the Upper Arm (i.e. Shoulder group) in relatively equal amounts. At least that was our intention. Many members of the community have varied methods of posing that give equally good results, but the method I use is what you see above. As for the Forearm problem you see. I can't actually duplicate that fold in the inner elbow to that extremety unless I put a fairly drastic twist on the Forearm. Poser's joint system is definitely not perfect, but I feel that we've done as well as possible with what we have to work with. If we add too many JCMs to correct ALL of the joint issues then things get to be so complicated that conforming clothing is impossible to make without ridiculous amounts of joint and morph work. I'm sure we all agree that too much work to make clothing makes it difficult for everyone. :) I hope this helps. I have to go now, time to go home and get some rest. I'll check in on this thread in the morning to see if I can help out any more with anyone's questions. Thanks again for your patience, Tony "Melmoth" Bradt Content Production Coordinator DAZ Productions

Thank you RHaseltine and Melmoth. Deleting the bilMilMan_m3.rsr in the geometriesDAZPeople folder and letting Poser4 build a new one fixed my problem in message 8. Next time I get an update for a figure, I'll make a habit of checking for a corresponding .rsr file in the geometries folder and deleting it. It would be nice if that routine can be built into an installar :-)

Lindsey, that worked for me.

I m Belgian, and my english is not so perfect. I m a bite lost with this all comments about M3 update. I bought Michael 3.0 Base (M1/M2 Upgrade), Can I use Sr1 update with this product or must I have only Michael 3 Base? Is there a realy diffrence between M3 base and M3 (M1/M2 Upgrade)??? THX for your clear response. Roland

The difference between the full and the upgrade versions of Michael 3 is the installer - the upgrade checks for M1/2 before writing the files, the stand-alone doesn't. They both put the same stuff in your Runtime, so the base update works for both.

"5. Re: Michael 3.0 SR1 by SKondris on 9/29/03 23:07 All the files on the server were updated, so even if you use an old link, it will give you the newly updated file set." I bought Michael 3 (upgrade), body morphs, head morphs, high res textures and numerous other tidbits on 09/27/03 (to use the odd USA date format). I downloaded and installed. My downloads page shows only the upgrade and boots still available for download, and these files are IDENTICAL to those I downloaded on 27/9 (they have NOT been updated). No body or texture file is available at all (new or old). Looks like I have no choice but to use the "patches". Really fun when it comes time to re-install (not common, but gosh-darned annoying how many DAZ install routines I have to run when it happens). Cliff Bowman

Attached Link: http://www.daz3d.com

Michael 3.0 Base
Michael 3.0 (M1/M2 Upgrade)
Michael 3.0 Body Morph pak

Thank you for your patience and understanding, I am sorry if my jest with the number of downloads having been granted in many customers account was seen as inappropriate by some of you.

Steve Kondris
DAZ Productions, Inc.

Well, Steve, some of us did acquire many downloads...I personally thought it was Mike's attempt to catch up with Vicky's popularity. ;) Thank you so much for the links. I've been relucatant to use any of the ones I downloaded because I got so confused (a state I often populate). Appreciate the clarification.

Attached Link: http://secure.daz3d.com/shop.php?op=itemdetails&item=1562

THE IMPORTANT PART : To stay on topic, however...since installing Mike 3 Base or body morph update,not sure which caused this... there are numerous dials in there with PBMCC/DC etc etc...bunches of them when I load Mike 3 SR1...I think another patch needs to be done to remove the dials... "and most of us know who the butt of the joke will be :( " ------------------------------ the guy telling the joke ? that what happens to me...everyone looks at me like I'm some kinda ahole or something for the most part. So now, I try to stay away from humor...I just walk around glum looking all day, snarling at everyone, lest they should crack a smile.... I learned my lesson...especially in the day of political correctness and blind patriotism.

Dave-So that's what the Dial Cleaner that came out when V3 did is for- to clean up the Dials that are suppossed to be invisible. The Poser program itself is what keeps making those dials show up.

they did not show up prior to the SR1 update, however... I was told by someone in another thread that they appear when you save a character or something. I do have the dial cleaner, but I don't think they are supposed to be there when you first load up the figure... I would like additional clarification on this...I surely don't want to be cleaning the damn dials everytime...and I shouldn't have to clean up and save another M3 character in my already bloated runtime.

"The Poser program itself is what keeps making those dials show up" To be sure, Poser is doing what it is supposed to - if people innovate outside of wha tis "allowed" it's hardly Posers fault if there are "issues" caused by this. Poser (Artist,4,Pro Pack,5,whatever) has enough problems of its own without having extra problems assigned as "it's fault". No, I know you didn't say that I'm just responding to an impression I get every now and then :( Dave-So:- nah, duck 'em if they can't take a joke. Whilst some people ARE just offensive, it's better IMHO to crack a joke and risk being misinterpreted than to be one of the "grey men" that so infiltrate modern society. Personally I never did find any of Shakespeares jokes particularly mirthful, but apparently some find them quite funny - so probably emminently worthwhile, even today.

The SR1 update was updated again last night to clean up the dials from what I am told. So, you'll probably want to go download them one more time just to make sure you have the latest set of installers. Thanks, Steve Kondris DAZ Productions, Inc.

Just updating the header per message 79. The SR1 update was UPDATED again!

Wouldn't it be nice if DAZ provided a small checksum program and provided the checksum for current patches/versions so we could be sure without downloading whole patch sets again? Or even used WinZip's CRC checksum ability. Or used a new version number for each version/release. Or didn't need a bunch of Service Releases before a character's even month old? Or told us where the updates were and be right? Just a few random thoughts, pay me no more heed than usual...

Or how about this killer utility - a program to trawl through your runtime (you have to point it at your runtime, so you might have to run it several times if you use Poser 5) looking for DAZ products, identifying the version by CRC and then, at the end, offering a list of updates which are available? The could call it "New DAZ!" and sell it for a few quid. I've just had a horrid thought - weren't DAZ aiming for a million downloads of DAZ Stuio by year's end? If that includes service packs, or new versions with the same version number, I can see how they could still hit target... ;o

holy yikes...ok..I'll go download the frickin thing again..this is actually getting a bit ridiculous.

well, the update on the M3 Base page is dated 9/30/03...so is that the new one, or the old one??? screw this... tell me when its all up there and working correctly... I've been a very good customer of DAZ...and they have been probably one of the best companies ever in relation to customer service, but they have been going downhill very fast in the last few months.... biting off too much ??? the web site changes every other week...half the features don't work, the ordering system gets all lost...links have been screwy for quite soome time....and this M3 bs is really getting me ticked off...

Yeah, what Dave-So said. DAZ, get it all together, and when you're absolutely sure SR1, or whatever, is ready for primetime, send your M3 members an email about it. Okay?

Hell, why pick on DAZ alone? I've spent the better part of 6 months fixing all the mistakes made by the artists of my considerable Poser collection. Hell, I'd rather spend time using the stuff instead of fixing mistakes!

My M3 SR1 loaded without ghost dials yesterday, so you should be safe with the Windows version at least.

Bobbie Boucher, I, for one, was not "picking on DAZ alone." Just for example, I have picked on Curious Labs a time or two. It's just that I have a slow dial-up connection, and it takes time to download updates. I'd prefer not to have to do it over and over.

I doubt anyone here soley picks on DAZ, but if a company goes out of its way to look silly it's likely to get picked up on... For what it's worth I've checkd my latest downloads and can say that the sr1 m3baseUP.exe downloaded 02/10/03 (UK date) is definaltey different to the sr1 m3baseUP.exe downloaded 01/10/03 (UK date). Both were dated 9-30-03 (USA date) on the DAZ site and called sr1, with the same filename. My m3bodymorphUP.exe and ps_tx469-M3MapsHi-update.exe of same dates as base updates are identical regardless of date, so these appear to have not changed (unless they've changed since I downloaded on 2/10). Argh. DAZ appear, again, to be issueing more patches than they're willing to admit to. they aren't issuing new sr numbers (e.g. sr1.1) or changing the date. I've been here before with Victoria 3 :(

Oh - I forgot to mention, the ps_pe039-m3Upgrade.exe I downloaded (11.4MB) after being told that my account would be pointing at a new, sr1 version of the product is identical to the pre-sr1 ps_pe039-m3Upgrade.exe that I downloaded on 27/09/03 (UK date). I hate having my time wasted needlessly, and I'd be furious if I was still on a 56K conenction (not that a 160K connection is GREAT, but better by far).

Wow - I've just checked my account page at DAZ. I've got more files to download - some of which had vanished the other day. Might these be the promised full sr1 releases? Who can tell. More downlaods later...

YAY! The base, body morphs, and hi-res texture I just downloaded from my accounts page ARE different to those I downloaded on 27/09/03 and 1/10/03! (I know because I download to a different folder and then do binary file comparison). Whether these new files are sr1 or sr1 remains to be seen, but it's a hopeful sign. I hope :)

tell me more, tell me more :)