Attached Link: The post which this relates to.

Well, I can see that you are not able to comprehend an informal approach on my part. You clearly believe that I am some art deprived, ignorant, narcissistic child who hasn't the slightest idea what is and isn't vital in the realm of human interest. Are we not all human? Is it not a very function of being "individual" to have differing likes and dislikes? I, myself, when glancing at magazine covers would stop and stare at the technical achievement of some of the contest entries. I might give this issue a passing glanceif I were ten years old and into comical images of lizards frolicking in the snow. But I'm not. And no, I must contest; most readers of this magazine are also not interested in childish images of such poor quality however comical they may be. Artistic mastery is not merely appealing to human interest, but doing so in such a way so that it is appealing to not only the mind but the eye as well. True I may sound bitter, but it's probably because this is the first time I am going to be published in Renderosity; the community which I have followed since my infancy in Brycian art. I have been published on similar sites and in similar publications, but this one is special to me, I have gained so much from Renderosity and was delighted to finally be able to give back. Needless to say, I am rather disappointed in the cover selection for the one month which I will be published. You may say, people don't judge a book by its cover, but you would be very wrong. If you would honestly pick up a magazine with a blank white manila folder as its cover, for any reason other than curiosity as to why any publisher in their right mind would allow a magazine to be published with a manila folder cover, you'd be a damn liar. Much in the same way, I would ignorantly judge this magazine by the sub standard cover. True, he probably did spend a long time moving those inverse kinematics based poser bones, but that doesn't mean they've created art Otherwise people would buy action figures, pose them, and submit them to museums. But they don't, because it's not their art; it's in fact not art at all. The fact that you call me ignorant, on multiple occasions, really hurts. I am hugely interested in the arts, hence why I became fascinated by Bryce. I actually render quite a few 'artsy' works within Bryce; they are simply far outnumbered by my technical tinkering. Take a look in my gallery. Perhaps, your shallow view of what you so sparingly call 'art' is limited to simplistic and easily understood images featuring comical creations found in a child's book. I must say sir that your outlook on 'art' is that of toddler. You seem to believe that only human based images are art, or in any case 'interesting'. Ever heard the saying: simple minds speak of peoplemediocre minds speak of eventswhile great minds speak of 'ideas'? This is a simple image for a simple mind. So what if I among others attempted to convey an original and thought provoking 'idea' in our entries? I would hope that others would find an intriguing image a better 'seller' than a simplistic rendering such as the winner. Using that logic, my drawing above should be on the cover. It fits the theme, people will be fascinated for hours by the simple color scheme, and above all else, it conveys human emotion; what person wouldn't want to chop a tree down in the middle of a snowstorm with a broadsword? Do you actually chastise us for attempting to convey an original 'idea', in an original medium? Wasn't it Schriener who said, a child sees everything, looks straight at it, examines it, without any preconceived idea; most people, after they are about eleven or twelve, quite lose this power, they see everything through a few preconceived ideas which hang like a veil between them and the outer world? I am fully convinced that you are viewing art through this veil; you believe ideas can only be conveyed through human emotion or personified emotions. I find this rather sad I have one last message to leave you on. I too entered an art contest when I was younger. About 6 years old I guess. The contest was simple enough, color in the image provided to the best of your ability. Those crazy market basket folk had a trick up their sleeve though. I colored that image so technically accurate. I even employed my basic understanding of 'shading' to get a better effect. I marveled in my own ability to 'create', in my mind this was art. It was simple, it wasn't even my own work, I was applying various colored crayons to a previously drawn image. My entry was very similar to BigT's; I simply used the guidelines to my advantage, simplistic yet perfectly so. Much to my dismay, upon returning to the supermarket the next week to retrieve my winnings I found that I hadn't wonThe winning entry was done by a girl who took the original image and completely redrew it employing her own ideas on how it should be done. This was indeed art. Even though I was 6 years old I knew why I had lost and I accepted it. I did the bare minimum, forgoing what lay 'outside' the black pre printed lines. The winning entry portrays simple personified emotions through a linear based approach. The snow is not yellow and unrealistic looking for some deep hidden emotion, nor are some of the joints miss-bent to portray sheathed anguishThis image doesn't speak, it doesn't explain, there is no story, it 'says'.simple as that. I honestly hope you do not cast your unguarded remarks of 'ignorance' or 'sour grapes' in my direction again. Your complete lack of any backup for these remarks portrays you as an addle minded individual that is sparked by the slightest hint of the playground taunt "fight, fight, fight, fight".

Apparently this board didn't take kindly to my indented paragraphs.

Well Ornlu, I'm honored to be able to say that someone with your artistic abilities is an acquaintance, but back when i used to actually post often, I'd say that i would consider you sort of a friend. I've always found some of the Poser work as a sort of a slap in the face to artists everwhere. I puttered with Poser for a while, it's a great program, and can be used to create great works of art (for instance, the amazing images made of the shipyard with multiple poser figures in an elaborate setting...wow...). There are others still who use V3, topless, with hair models and mats someone else made, render it, and say 'HEY, LOOK AT HOW GREAT THIS IS.' Well...bravo...maybe try some originality. I've looked at the image in question, i've examined it, and i've come to a decision. First of all, Ornlu is absolutely right to be upset with this image placing. It's nothing special, some very good poser work, no question of BigT's talent here at all...but artistically it's lacking. It's a piece that shows a lot of talent (with poser, that is), and patience, that's for sure. The terrain used for the snow isn't very snow-like, the texture is decent, but the sky is nothing special at all. For a piece where the sky is such a huge portion of the image, it should be more appealing. Maybe it should be more winter-like, more reserved and overcast, and if the light source didn't cast yellow light it would help. I mean, when i was a kid, we had a rule: "If you wouldn't eat the snow, don't sled in it." Of course that was paired with: "Don't eat yellow snow." What I'm trying to say is, just because something is comical or humorous, doesn't make it art. I believe comic strip artists truly are artists, because some of that stuff is amazing, and they do it on a regular basis. However, this image is not so much art, but just the artist showing off how well he can utilize Poser to create some nice poses. It needs more than some nice figures to become a scene, especially a scene worthy of the 'Rosity magazine.

Art is in the eye of the beholder. Art is the beholder. We are the camera, the lens, and the image. Together we wander through life, trying to find an answer to an unwritten question. Slide.

ditto on all of the above. if my eyelids werent so heavy right now I would give some input. but honestly, u pulled up some great points about poser that i never really thought of.

I think that, technically, the posing is awesome. But IMHO the image doesn't look like something that ought to be on the cover of an art mag. Just my opinion.

Geez folks,............chill ! I wasn't even aware that there was a contest,........talk about addle-brained. By and large no one who post images or enters contests on this site is going to facillitate world peace or find a cure for cancer or AIDS by doing so,........at least I'm pretty sure of that, sort of. Aren't we fortunate to be affluent enough to actually own computers and have the electricity to run them ? The first 25 years of my life B.C.(before computers) I worked in traditional media (acrylics, watercolors and oils) and I stopped because, well, I sucked at it. Art IS in the eye of the beholder and I always feel rather sheepish when my wife refers to me as a "digital artist". I feel that all I do is to move meshes around and click the "Make Art" button,....that's just my opinion for myself. Discourse is always fruitful, however, there can be a fine line between petty bickering and productive exchange. We have a fine community here,....please let's keep it that way,.....okay ? I was always told by my mom that the point of any project is the knowledge gained in doing it. Did anyone who participated in the contest learn anything from the exercise ? Yes ? No ? Maybe we should take a look at our surroundings and take stock of all that we do have, and be grateful for it.......there was a guy(an artist) in the 1960's and 70's named Cristo,........he used to wrap landscapes and buildings with fabric and other materials and called it "Art",........used to rot my socks to no end, absolutely hated the stuff, yet my best friend thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread,.......we finally agreed to disagree.....TOM(sackrat).

Ditto....

Take no offense to any of the words spoken in this thread. It's a 'flame' I made sure to even state it in the topic. It's a simple venting excercise aimed at another individual or group that has 'done you wrong'. It's more for the fun of the game than for personal gain or the persuit of knowledge. But quite often we learn through the process.

"Don't go where the huskies go, and don't you eat that yellow snow." -Frank Zappa

Well hello everyone. So glad to see that we are all getting along so fabulously these past couple of days. I know I haven't posted anything in a while. (I did sign the petition, though) The criminal element of society has been acting up and I got transferred back to the 8PM-4AM shift and it's not the easiest shift to work, but I do stop in every other day to stay current. Short and sweet here. The covers were done as the artist interpreted the guidelines, but OBVIOUSLY there were some MISinterpretations. Poser biased, yes. Bryce as the red headed stepchild, pretty much, but we know better. Should another image have won that embraced the theme more? That goes without saying. Every program has it's place and technical skill required. A lot of us use Poser and use it well and know what I mean. But, dragons for Christmas? And we know that a certain someone who was talkign smack MUST be a Poser user to take that kind of a, shall we say, defensive stance? Yeah well anyway..... Ornlu, Woodhurst, ICM, AS (and the list goes on and on), you all did magnificent jobs on your covers and it shows. There is definetly technical skill required there. To PJF, if he happens to read this thread, respond in your "oh so eloquent and holier-than-thou" attitude and say what you will about my friends in this forum and I, because it's OK. We know what we can do. Yeah, I know, I don't have anything in my gallery either simply because I don't. One LAST thing, PJF, don't go away mad...just...go away.

Ridiculous. Ornlu, lose your personality, keep your artisan-ship. I enjoy your exploration of our favorite ray-tracer. Your egotistical nature and idiocy leave me wondering why in hell a child with no real job has so much time to do graphics. I am much more egotistical, hell, I'm the Shadowdragonlord. If you didn't want to follow my orders, why did you vote for me to be your Lord? Get back to rendering, and quit multi-tasking, my friend! Nobody cares about your bruised ego. Maybe I do, but who cares about that, anyways?

Yeah, Renderosity doesn't do indents... AgentSmith

Yeah, unfortunately i'm a full time student now, not really much time to do anything anyway. You'll realize the only submission I've made since school started was a bridge project...for school.

FOLKS.... Kick back and Freakin relax... The winner was announced and that is final... Go back to rendering and always remember what you say and what you do will not change the out come one bit...

I'm assuming AgentSmith closed the other thread for a reason, so I'm going to refrain from responding as I feel inclined to your post above, Ornlu. Suffice to say that you are so desperately wide of the mark on all the issues you raise, you are indeed desperate.

Because it got ridiculous when people were "refraining", and then turn around and get in some grinding last words in, and expect it to be all okay. We all know how we feel. Words are beginning to repeat... Everybody needs to go to their seperate corners and render something, lol. AS

Go to our corners and render something! great idea AS!!! So we all could see a pic in PJF's gallery! LOL (sorry can't help it..lol)

Woah! I'm staying right out of this one................

Yo, I'm with TheBryster on this thread Last time I reckon I was in over my head Dracula was the only expert on rapping So i shouldn't have tried to catch him napping C'mon you guys it does no good This is the best, a cool neighbourhood Dennis

since this is a forum and we have the right to different opinions, this is my opinion: Someone mentioned that there are places on the net that specialize in Flames and Rants. I (just me personally) would like to see this flaming/ranting exchange end here. Agree to meet in one of those other places and continue to your hearts content. And by all means post a link so that those who care can follow. I don't care to see personal attacks, I'd much rather get tips and how-tos and see others wips. Ok, I'm done. almost- I really like the friendly atmosphere here, please bring it back.

I'm new here so I think my viewpoint is fairly neutral. I think the Dragons look quite funny and interesting, the guy's gallery is full of funny ideas, and less of that technicality mumbo jumbo. Ornlu's gallery is full of nice realism images too. Please don't turn this into a Poser vs Bryce thing because it isn't. I think people just relate to Poser more because it has characters in it, therefore relating to the audience more directly. That's exactly why we use webcams instead of just voice chat, why we have smiley faces in our instant messager, and why most employers have person to person interviews than phone interviews. I think it IS possible to impress them enough to put you in the cover, it just takes a lot more effort than just using poser. SO if you want Brycean scenes, why not use poser characters in Bryce? After all the audience really don't care what software we use, but how it impacts them.

It's not a Bryce vs Poser argument although every cover so far has had a human element to it. It's the fact there were other candidates in the contest that BETTER displayed the theme of the contest and were more asthetically pleasing than the dragons. Nothing against the image itself it was well done. IMO there were better images that should have won. IMO I think they were just hoping on the popularity of the dragons that has come about lately, especially since Issue 7 where there were featured in an article.

I'm not sure that the previous article was a major factor in the cover decision. Frankly, I don't know why the decision was made and don't care anymore, LOL. But to remove the question from existence, here's a proposal to those in charge: Stop having cover contests. Instead, surf the galleries for images appropriate to seasonal themes or whatever you have in mind. Narrow it down to the few best candidates, contact the artists for permission, and choose the one you like best - there's your cover. If you can't find any images to your liking, contact an artist whose work you like and commission (for free, of course) them to create a cover piece for you to your specifications. This could give some artists an important experience with tailoring work to a clients specifications, experience a budding commercial artist could use. This is closer to the way the big boys in publishing get their cover art/photographs, and I don't think many people would think of it as unfair-in a contest, there's always gonna be winners and losers. And some hard feelings. Tjohn

This whole thing is just getting pretty hillarious. I've said my piece before and now that I've got it off my chest I feel much better, thank you very much. There's only one thing that has bugged me since the last thread on this subject and that's PJF calling us all ignorant, idiots, wingers, etc,etc. We come here to communicate and if we cannot speak our minds, as PJF seems to want us to do, then what's the point. If we get bugged by something then we should be allowed to say what has bugged us, without someone telling us how stupid we are. Catlin

catlin_mc, I have never, and would never, seek to deny anyone's freedom to speak their mind (any long standing Renderosity members will vouch for that). However, the flip side of freedom of speech is that you have to be prepared to allow counter opinions. Ornlu launched a bitter attack on BigT's winning image, and as part of that, upon BigT's artistic and technical abilities and achievement. Ornlu cast aspersions on the integrity of the magazine staff. He did these in a particularly unsportsmanlike and childish way, especially bearing in mind that the attacks in this instance were premeditated. Many others joined in the big sour grapes tread. Is it unreasonable for someone to respond to that? And given that the forum moderator chose to let Ornlu's posts stand without comment, is it unreasonable for that someone to respond in kind? When a group mentality is ugly and stupid, I am content, if saddened, to stand up to it alone. The majority expressed opinion in this forum on this matter has been shameful, and I'm relieved to be unpopular with that majority.

Ok your argument is with Ornlu but lets all lay it to rest. Please......... If any good came out of all this it made me go look at BigT's gallery and I have to say that I like his work. It is funny and entertaining. The only thing that bugged me about this whole issue is that I too believed that there were many other images that might have better filled the front cover and that perhaps it would be better if the community as a whole was involved in chosing the cover winner. I hope we can all go back to being an intelligent, friendly, forum once again. 8) Catlin

tjohn, your suggestion that the magazine stop having cover contests is right on the nose. I think I also mentioned this a few weeks back in an earlier thread in this vein. I remember seeing some time ago talk of the magazine project wanting to move out from Renderosity and onto the shelves of regular newsagents. If this is to happen then they are going to have to 'grow up' and start acting like a professional publication. They should, exactly as you say, commission works suitable for their needs from artists of their choosing. I'm not personally interested in the magazine (my beef in these unpleasant events has been with the attacks on the winner and the winning entry, plus some irritation at the software snobbery) but I agree that the ending of the contests will bring this kind of nonsense to a close.

It's a sad sad day when Bryce users are accused of 'software snobbery' Sorry, just got a kick out of that. I deserved a response in the way that PJF did. Much in the same way I deserved to speak my mind, which I did.

"And given that the forum moderator chose to let Ornlu's posts stand without comment" My job is not to edit what anyone says, nor to dictate what anyone says, until those comments start hitting on a personal level. Which both of yours have (Ornlu and PJF, and others). Discuss this subject all you want, but anymore opinions or statements, etc about each other in any of the various threads, and I'm just gonna start locking everything up, and start handing out 7 day bans. Take it upon yourselves to cool down. Thanks. AgentSmith

Well, I'm finally going to enter the fray.... In my view this community (not just the Bryce forum) is one of the best of the net, lets all remember that we're lucky to have such a good source of inspiration and knowledge. I use a variety of packages, so count me out on software snobbery issue. Do I like the winning entry, yes very much, do I think it should have won, no, because there were other images that I felt were better (note I didn't enter this one due to time constraints). I also felt that a few images stretched the contest guidelines, but when I first read the guides I didn't pay attention properly anyway... Do I check someone's gallery before I judge there comments - yes and I put less weight to someones comments if their gallery is blank or their art is IMHO poor. This is not a personal dig, I wouldn't consider my art to be of a high standard, but WTH I enjoy making it and feedback is a useful way to improve. Personally I think the cover contest should still be held, I think images that wouldn't fit the templates or theme should be filtered out by the 'rosity staff, and then the rest should go to a community vote, each person getting the chance to vote for cover image and cd image. (this would allow for people to take into account the difference in shapes etc), the top four cover votes could be the front/back inside/outside. The top 2 CD votes get CD,CD Insert. That way the cover of the mag would truly represent the community.

The problem is that this is a mainly poser community. There are far more poser users here than anything else. This is not a proble, in and of itself. But I don't think communal voting would ever work.

Nope we'd be more likely to get Poser images on the cover if it was a community vote.

Well then we have special Cover contests...Ones with Poser figures and one without...Poser figure Cover contests one month then the Next they get the middle of the Magazine like in Playboy...

Bottom line is the Bottom line, they said so themselves. They want that puppy to scream "BUY ME, BUY ME" and jump off the shelf. I believe electroglyph mentioned they should handle this in the same manner the Pros do & approach artists. I agree, along with adding the typical Sub-content on the cover as well. You pick up any magazine, the image grabs your eye, & all the text/paste-up gives you enough info to wether you want to open it.
Whatever happens, Renderosity has grown from grass roots and will continue to grow along with your typical "growing pains".
As far as Genre, well this site started based on Poser, it's the main staple here and will probably dominate for some time to come. Yes, it's only logical that they'll be fair and spread the interest across the board, but it is their site & Mag.
Eventually contests will most likely become "in-house" events, just as the pros do.
"Live in the Moment & Render like mad"
ICM

I been following this posts (all of em...lol) reading and thinking.....and until this very minute I loved the idea of the Mag people coming to the artist themselves.... Now, I havent' bothered to go seaching everyone's galleries, but....this is my thought....and why I no longer like the idea...LOL I dont know about the poser community, nor do I know the people in it, who the regulars are and who they aren't.... But I've been in this Bryce forums for a few months now, and it's easy to see who the Forum regulars are.... What I did notice, however, that the forum regulars are but a tiny fraction of the people who use Bryce that visit this site..and if I had to guess....I would guess about 50% of Brycers on the site, dont' post many images.... If the Mag people look through galleries to select artists and contract them out, will they ever truly see all the talent that is lurking here waiting for contests to strut their stuff? In an effort not to elevate again, I will neither agree nor disagree with any of the comments other then to say GREAT WORK!!! FABULOUSSSSSSS PICTURESSSSSSSS!!!! WOW.... lol Sometime....lol I'll actually jump into one of the bryce challenges..lol I know I won't win, lol but it will be fun to see if I get even one vote...lol Jen

Hmm. I have Bryce, Poser, Vue, ZBrush, etc. And in just about every forum there always is some sort of software snobbery. Just look at the referenced thread, post 8 by pidjy do the winner modeled the dragons himself? if so.. it may be a good point because they are really well done, if not... well it's just a "put-together" image. In the Vue forum they sometimes make remarks about Bryce & Poser. Same her about Vue & Poser. ;) I think Poser gets maligned the most though. Right now there's this whole thread over at Epilogue putting it down. http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/common_room/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000682 It is NOT just a matter of 'putting together stuff'. While there are some folks that don't put much effort into their art, you can't just assume that just because they use Poser they don't really work at their art or have talent. Otherwise it would be just as valid to say that Bryce is just clicking some buttons to get a sky and slapping some textures on automated terrains. Anyways, I adore BigT's work. He has made the Millenium Dragon 'his own'. They have personality and vitality. It was also non-denominational. ;) woodhurst's image was great, but it said Merry Christmas. I think the magazine staff was looking for as wide an appeal as possible and avoiding any religious issues. I don't think it really matters if a person has a gallery here or not. Does not having a gallery make it so that you can't have an opinion?! I didn't have a gallery here for the longest time. As it is I still have more images at say my Poserpros gallery than I do here. It doesn't affect my creativity or reasoning abilities. ;)

Caly, I don't think you're getting our main point here. Not many people are against poser itself. It is simply that we are being overrun with nviatwas style immages. Poser images with postwork or artistic quality have nothing going against them. However, BigT did not actually create anything in his image. Would you consider a museum curator (sp) an artist for how she or he hangs the paintings on the walls? I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. And yeah, I am against bryce in a way. I know that every new bryce artist will take scene, slap in the basic land shape, add a sky, some water, a tree, and make an island. This isn't art, it's just pressing buttons. However, I gaurantee you that if you were to glance through the bryce gallery, this makes up a very small portion of the images. Whereas the poser gallery appears to be permeated with nviatwas, that's why there's an acronym for it... If there's ever a day when people start saying sdmiswwaat for standard displacement map in some water with a tree, then I'll admit we have a problem.

I have Bryce, Poser, Maya, Rhino and 3DS Max so I'm not biggoted about any one app, all have their place and uses. As for BigT's work, it is very good, he has an extremely interesting gallery with many fun images. It's just when it comes to the choices made by the admin on what should take the place of the cover. They seem to have one eye and one mind, and as Zhann said will there ever be an abstract or a country scene or anything else other than a Poser like scene on the mag cover. If only human like figures get on the mag cover then that leaves a lot of apps out in the cold, unless you are extremely brilliant in Bryce with metaballs you're not going to have a human like figure in a Bryce scene and many folk who use other apps don't have Poser. I would like one day to see a really good landscape or village/country scene on the mag cover, but I doubt that that will happen. Probably 'cos it don't sell puppies. 8) Catlin

I love Caly's term, software snobbery! That's totally me, at times. I remember when I first started with Bryce, number 3 (it moves!), and flaming some poor kid at 3Dcafe about being a studio max user. I didn't know ANYTHING about max or Bryce, but it sure was fun! His reply to my question about how he makes terrains : "I got the plugin." I said to him, "But does IT MOVE?!?!?" "I would like one day to see a really good landscape or village/country scene on the mag cover, but I doubt that that will happen." - Catlin The best way to get such an image onto the cover is to keep on making them, and putting them up in people's faces. Go! Do it! Me too!

I agree. I rambled this out in another thread, but...where business and art have to meet, it can suck sometimes. But, in not trying, we automatically fail. (in getting more Bryce covers) Keep Bryce alive! AS

AgentSmith I just love your sense of calm and realistic out look, it is hardly surprising that you are the mod here, without you we would be totally lost. Thank you for being our virtual goal posts. 8) Catlin

I once saw a fooball player here in Oz run into a goal post and he snapped it off at ground level......

Oh, ho, I missed all this. So here's a very late 2c ... Artistic merit is not the only thing in life. Is that picture of tobogganing dragons great art? No, I don't think so. Is it a good magazine cover? Undoubtedly. If you are choosing an image for a specific purpose, it should be chosen on whether it fulfills that purpose. It comes to me as no surprise that such an eye-catching image should be chosen as the winning entry. It does what it's supposed to do. In contrast, the image selected by ornlu in the previous thread as "awesome", would, IMO, make a very weak magazine cover image, largely because the single human figure is so small and out of balance with the composition. I leave aside whether it is artistically better (probably not) or technically better (maybe) - as a magazine cover it wouldn't work very well.