There was a discussion going on about comments in the Vue Gallery. I'm not a native english speaker, so I hope nothings going down the wrong throat. - Some people (including myself) sometimes miss constructive critics. In order to improve my art I rely on them. - Critics are never objective. As long as an artist writes, what he wanted to achive, it's easier to give him recommendations or tell him how near he came to his goal. - Some artists think that others are their competitors, others share their knowledge in comments and tutorials. I say everyone to his likeing, but if you are kind to the community, the community will be kind to you. - There are a lot of artists here. I often try to scan the gallery and when I see several great pictures of an artist, I put him into my personal list. This is the reason, why some artists get more comments from me than others. - Artists are sometimes very sensitive. I'm not, but I try to avoid to affront others. If I do so, it may be my lack of speaking good english. Another good idea is to IM critics and suggestions, if they are not helpful for others. - I don't consider myself as one of the great artists, but i know what I like and what I don't. In order to get comments from me, just write what you wanted to achive and that you're eager for comments ;). You will get them ^-^. If I only write it is fantastic, I do mean that. Sometimes even I don't have an idea, what to improve. ...and yes, there should be more constructive comments in the gallery... What do you think? Best regards - Walter

I agree completly with you.

Too bad that Emanet-Kaos deleted his image. Then you would have seen the reason for this harsh discussion. He offended everybody before even somebody has commented any of his work. After i and others have commented the way he wanted it - and left another comment that it is not good style to offend others just for fun, the discussion started much more heavily. He demanded critics because that is, in his understanding the nature of art and artists to help others through critique. Thats why i asked him why he thinks i have to help him. I am more than willing, but not if someone demands it. THE NATURE OF A FORUM LIKE THIS IS GIVE AND TAKE! Not take only. I think that is the central point that needs discusssion! Problem is, that only the owner of an image can have more than one comment under his image. If i add a second or third comment, the first is deleted. The result is a very odd looking situation in this case. By the way, i looked this morning again onto the comments under his image. E-K said, that this was exactly what he wanted. Heavy pressure on himself, so that he can become better. Well, his style, his decition. But then he shouldn't complain if... A little beside fact. He went over to a new photo of a friend and ranked it down with some very heavy critiques, just to show what he thinks is foul here in his eyes. Strange style as well. I understand that he is probably a very frustrated and bitter man. He tells on his RR homepage that he had a heavy bike accident that destroyed his professional career. All accepted. But again, this forum here tries to be a nice and gentle place and needs give and take (to say it again). At the moment there is much too much "take" and very little "give" for my opinion. And, maybe bad luck for E-K, we had this rmuller scandal from last week, so everybody is more nervous about those things than usual. Thats what i think, Walther

Well Walther, I saw the picture and it was the reason, why I started this thread. I agree that E-K started a bit harsh (I would have said it differently), but there were some good arguments beneath his pictures and I thought he should have started this discussion in the forum, where it belongs IMHO. But again, he was the trigger, but I have not planned to discuss this special case here. It's just a general observation. I got some really helpful comments from some people here and I try to do my best, when commenting on others. Unfortunately some people post a picture and do not tell what they want to achieve or what was the idea. If I say it's too dark, it may be what he wanted to go for. All people who want more comments, just say so and tell what goals you wanted to reach. On the other hands, try to give helpful comments. Say also what you don't like, when requested and if you give advice for improvement, that's even better. Got a lot of ideas from artists like lululee, djeser, momoka and others. Thanks a lot for that.

100% agreed. But again. The discussion should not be restricted to comments to images but about the nature of this forum in general. I had thought about starting a thread like this as well. Subject "give and take". Demand for comments, rankings, etc, especially when they are combined with complains about others are simply not a good style. Full stop. And before you can expect anything, you should be giving something. And when it's only nice and gentle words. Like in every community you can't walk in and expect everything from the first moment on. I am here now for one and a half year and i still think that i am a sort of a newbie in this forum and therefore can't expect too much. Interesting enough, the more i comment and help others here, the more comments i get back - "GIVE AND TAKE"! Beside all these images things, the forum is to exchange (again: EXCHANGE) ideas, thoughts and know-how. I don't think that we are a sub-division of E-on's support nor are we a free art forum. Therefore i hate threads starting with "i need this information...". Especially when those people are simply too lazy to search or look into the backroom! And i hate people attacking others and/or their work. Mostly to get some attention or simply to terrorize others. Like rmuller. Had all to do with getting attention. An idea i had (after last weeks experience - and the ones happening earlier this year) was, to define special times where people who needs it can do their "terror attack". Friday between 6 and 12 am for example. Then everybody who needs that can be online and the attack is over quickly for the rest who don't want that. I simply wanted to wait till Gebe is back from her holidays. I am sure that she has a lot to say to that as well - and it is good for such a basic discussion to have the moderator beside so that it can't become to heavy.

Nice one Wabe, agree entirely. What comes around, goes around.

One important thing I understood only with experience, is that, if someone doesnt ask criticism, don't give him even constructive criticism. Just a non written rule to avoid artist sensibility problems ;=) Yves

I aggree with YL ,if someone need comments must ask for them...sometimes like me i dont like to ask about comments because i think it is like "NEED cmments for better level in vue gallery" but it is not truth .. we need commnds for cont our art and to corect our mistakes... espacialy we need criticism for our work.. no just we like or we dont like this render... but, this is very dificult because many images every minute upload and how many of those can u vote....? ....

I sometimes gave comments, even when I was not asked for. This may not have been a good idea like Yves stated and I will rethink that. ...and yes wabe I also agree to your statement. Often you don't use a feature of Vue, because you have no clue what effects you could achieve with it. E-on will not help you here, but some fellow artist could say 'Try this' and you ask him 'How' and then you learn something new ;) That's what I like...

Criticism should always be constructive not destructive.All Artist are sensitive to a point some more then others...We as Artist should first look for the good in a pic before we go for that one leaf that's out of place...I also agree with YL

YL: If a poster to the gallery doesn't want comments there is the facility to stop them when posting, the fact that they don't implies that they don't mind people commenting, at least that's the way I tend to view the situation. That said, there is no excuse for destructive criticism or just bad mannered comments for the hell of it.

In fact I just wanted to say, if someone don't ask for comment, maybe the picture was exactly what he wanted... As said above, other artists can say "You should try a blue sky, you should add a yellow stone,..." But the creator is the only person knowing what he wanted. Such design, such style,... That's not the same if someone ask for advice and criticism, that means he doesn't know exactly what he want to do, we can put constructive ideas... Stopping the comments is an other solution, although very very frustrating when there is a beautiful picture, I can not add my "waow it's beautiful" comment. Which may appear to be simple, but at least it's truth. So that's not a good solution. My point of view is I don't ask for advice, I always know what I want, even if my picture is not perfect I know where are the defects. But if someone want to add comments he is always welcomed, whatever is the constructive content No excuses for bad comments, I think we could write a thesis on the art of good comment ;=) Yves

What I have seen in renderosity (more than any other forum) is a lack of constructive criticism and a lot of votes for buddies - this only hurts art in the long run. I would much rather have sincere well thought criticism than pats on the back from one of my friends. I have seen this buddy favoritism play itself out in contests as well as crits in the galleries. In the long run it only hurts art and applauds mediocrity. I also agree that bad - troll like comments are not good for art or anything else. There is a huge difference between solid constructive criticism and bad comments that are just mean with no substance. I find it pretty easy to just read right past the trolls and I suggest you only look at the bad comments that are constructive. And Yves put it right - don't ask for criticism unless you can take the good and the bad. I myself listen to the bad and learn from it - isn't that why we are asking for crits in the first place? Scott

Actually I guess I misquoted you Yves - you said it differently - don't give criticism unless people ask for it - but I stand by what I said - hehe - the reverse of what you said is true as well ; ) Btw - I have not seen that kind of favoritsm in the Vue forum (I was referring to others which I won't name) and I appreciate the honesty of people here. Scott

My recent experence with my waterfall picture is testiment of how good the gallery can be (not the picture ~L~ the comments) All the help I got was great and helped me improve the image. I was really grateful for all the tips I was given. The problem comes when someone sees a fault, but says it's crap... those people you don't need. I've been extremly lucky with the commenters so far and hope I never meet a troll. Okay, I'm off. I've got pro in my hot little hands and now have to get over the fear of installing it. ~L~

Tintifax this whole thread that you started was directed at Walther? Why then must we drag yet another age old issue through this forum? This site has a trolling problem and some just love to start none ending discussions to exercise there point. Some will even use multi ids to make there point or points even better or higher. There is no point Tinti, we all genetically are the same but for maybe .001% and yet we dwell on that .001% most of the time. If you needed a response from walther just contact him directly. OR look at the front page and what do we see? Paste: Spotlight with Tim Choate Coming next week, Tim Choate, President of Bondware, Inc., parent company of Renderosity, will step into the Spotlight. Don't miss your opportunity to ask questions about the status and future of Renderosity. Better yet tell it to someone that can actually do something about it eh? Regards, shoop

Good points, all, and Yves, you're right; we could write a thesis! I suppose I think about several things with regards to comments and critiques in the galleries: 1. Comments do not equal critiques. Just because someone has comments enabled doesn't necessarily mean they want input, advice or criticism as well. 2. Someone asks for help? Advice? Critique? It costs me nothing but a bit of time to re-look at the image, think about it, and offer a suggestion or two. If I don't have a suggestion? Then a comment maybe. 3. Bravo, Walther, on the "give and take". We've talked about this before. I feel quite strongly about this. Give a little...get a lot! At least, that's what's happened to me and others here. I was shy at first, been at this site a couple years before posting my first image. Got a couple of comments on first few images, but once I started posting in the forum, and posting comments on others' images, people seemed more willing to look at my stuff and leave me feedback. 4. Want to offer advice, suggestion, critique? Consider doing it in an IM. I am constantly IMing newer gallery posters to ask them to optimize images below 300kb. Just because RR limit is 500kb on images doesn't mean an image has to be that big! Most of the world doesn't have DSL...I do not look at images that large because it takes me too long to view them. I've also offered help or suggestions by IM so that it may be taken in a less "harsh" light, if harsh is even the word. But being constructive at all times. None of the "this pic sucks" stuff. That is just ignorant and rude. 5. Do I look at every pic in the gallery? Nope. I don't. For one thing, often I just don't have the time. Is it 500kb? See point 4. Is it huge in size, unlikely to fit on my screen or at least come close? Does the thumbnail look a bit interesting to me? As far as E-K goes, he has some personal issues. I feel bad for that. But a lot of us do. That is no excuse to be rude and demanding to people, especially to troll the photo Walther is talking about. If he wanted criticism, and was prepared to take it, he should have asked directly rather than had a tantrum in the gallery, imvho. Sorry...didn't mean to write a book!

No rds, not at all. This thread was never meant to be addressed to Walther. If you or others get that feeling then I was simply missunterstood. Walther does a great job here IMHO. I wanted a general discussion without blaming someone and I think the responces here show some common understanding with slight variations. I agree with the statements of Walther, Yves and Djeser and I learned some things during this discussion. So no offense to anyone. It's good though to get a feedback how others feel about that topic. - Djeser was right about the size issue (not all have DSL). Didn't care about that until yet. - Yves, I often know, what I don't like in one of my pics, but I do not have an idea to solve it. So help is much appreciated. - Walther, you are right. GIVE and TAKE is the key for this community. And I like this community. Thanks - Walter

Do i have a job here? Interesting. Where is the cheque? Haven't seen one yet! :-))) One last statement: GIVE AND TAKE !!!

He Walther, I thought you are a mod here. There are a lot of jobs that do not get paid ;-))).

The check is always in the mail no? LOL Give and Take and as a wise man once said if your going to give it make sure you can take it. BTW my mistake Tinti as you sign your first post Walter and I thought you meant Walther. My mistake totally. `shoop

no problem rds, but Walter is my real name LOL.

tricky for a good old americaman - Walter and Walther!! The good and the...

Sergio Leone :-))))