Surely all that was required, in the first instance, was a mail from Renderosity to Lady Cherry detailing concerns, and asking if she had a rational explanation. She shows them her server logs, as she's offered to do since this blew up, they compare stats, and we all live happily ever after if they tally. If, and only if, incontravertable proof is obtained of wrongdoing should the site have been pulled from the ring. Innocent until proven guilty, as so many have remarked. What was done here smacks more of Facism rather than the "art community" spirit that is on the site logos. I'm FAR from religious, but one phrase keeps on coming back to me from school Bible class or somewhere. "Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself" and it looks like that's happened to Renderosity in this thread, and deservedly so (imho) for reacting the way they did. Just because you're a business, and just because you consider you have top spot in your particular sphere of influence does NOT give you the right to disregard common courtesy let alone good business practice in this way.

I think I better put my two cents in. I have been a member of renderosity before it was renderosity. I remember the Rename the "Poser Online forum contest" I believe that Lady Cherry has been a member almost that long or longer. This is a complete and utter stab to all long term members of Renderosity, Whats next removing free stuff because too many people download it even if the download isn't using Rosity's bandwidth? Or maybe Just weed out all of the long time members completely? I would like to see proof. Numbers, facts, figures not just hunches.

I have been a member here forever, and quite frankly until this thread started I didn't realize there was a 'ranking' system for the Webring. Not really sure I understand the purpose in it since it is more or less a hop-scotch surfing affair anyway. Seems like everything over here has to have a ranking or rating... let's drop all that BS and start over equally. Most of us who have been here awhile know who is who and know what is going down [most of the time]...let the new people figure it out for themselves and not get frightened off by the politics...LOL>

I just found this thread and am wondering if the so called improvements made to the web ring had anything to do with Lady C being accused of wrong doing. "We have updated the Renderosity Web Ring Terms of Service (linked below), as well as changed the process for joining the Web Ring. The updated TOS more closely reflects the general site TOS, and stresses that non-art sites will not be accepted. Now, when a member submits their link, it will go into a pending state until the legitimacy of the linked site can be verified. The link is accepted or rejected based on compliance with the updated Web Ring TOS, and an automatic ebot email goes out to the member in either case. We are also going through the Web Ring to clean up non-art sites and dead end links. Lastly, we now have a script that will automatically run through the Web Ring on a regular basis and remove dead links (the link is given two chances to work in case the site is having problems the first time). We believe that all of these updates will improve the Web Ring's usefulness and legitimacy for our members. If you have questions or concerns please ask away. thanks, --Asher " Seems to me that while monkeying with the web ring settings maybe that is how &*$%# Asher got his stats to persecute Lady C

either way this is a shame and a blyte to renderosity. it is disappointing to see this from a site I believed in so much.{yes you -can- believe in a site even if you think the TOS needs to include holding a viewer responsable{that is for those that would jump on me for saying I believed in them} I am shocked and dismayed everytime I read this thread..it just shocks me that renderosity would of done this with out even giving lady cherry a chance to prove her stats! all I can say is that I am glad they are not police or judges....then all of society would either be executed or in jail..because they -think- they MAY be quilty.

hmm, even if I was to assume (I don't assume either way) its true what AsherD says, how do you know its Lady Cherry and not someone else/something else? Sounds like shooting the victim for being raped to me. I have no data to know for sure whether she manipulated the ranking or not, so don't have any other opinion on this.

Just wondering if this thread has run its course, or are we all waiting on a more responsive response from the PTB? Any progress at your end, Lady Cherry?

I'm guessing that getting an actual apology out of anyone here is as likely as being able to bite your own elbow. [sarcasm]Of course, why apologise when you suspect you're right?[/sarcasm]

The Powers That Be have spoken. ORF WIF HER HEAD! bonni

O.O geez ORF WIF HER HEAD? and we thought just being accused was bad??? now they are taking heads!?!?!?!?

Hi DarkGinger They wont look at my stats because they dont care. Asher has made it clear that nothing will be changed and that he is right. He will not appologize nor will he take the time to read over any stats that I can provide him with. That is apparent. Its a shame really! Its a real shame. My Guess (Bluntly Put) is he does not want to be proven wrong in any way shape or form. So he will stick to his guns and not appologize nor say another word on it. Funny because when I was a system admin at harvard if I was in the wrong no matter how impossible it seemed I would MAKE 100% sure before I said it was thier fault. A few times I WAS wrong and made sure I didnt jump the gun first. I allways give the scientist or User in this case the benefit of the doubt unless proven otherwise. Much Love -Lady Cherry

Oh well, it looks like we have to deal with another piece of luggage here. Strolls away whistling...... >;o)

~shakes her head~ RENDEROSITY YOU ARE MAKING A BIG MISTAKE ~clears her throat~ well I know one thing atleast one person will not be putting money into this site....

I wonder if we as the community can call for an impeachment of sorts for moderators that abuse their power or refuse to be for lack of a better term honest. Or maybe we should take Elizabytes suggestion and ORF WIF ASHERS' HEAD.

O.O now we are taking heads??? I think we will need some of those baskets and a Daz quiotine!

"I wonder if we as the community can call for an impeachment of sorts for moderators that abuse their power or refuse to be for lack of a better term honest." Accountability has long been a problem here. They do what they want, when they want, the way they want, and if the members or merchants don't like it, well, it's just too bad, isn't it? After all, there are plenty of OTHER sites you could go to to spend your money or talk to people or get information, etc... ;-) As a matter of fact, there's a growing movement for people to boycott the store here, just because of things like this. A simple apology would have gone so far to ease the bad feelings, but, hey, who cares. We're only customers, right? bonni

~whispers~ wasnt it a site geting to big that started this? so their thoery of "well you dont like it go someplace else" kind of backfired didnt it?

You can always IM Merchants that have stuff you like and ask if they are willing to sell direct via Paypal and keep all of their profits... ;) And note the silence of Asher & Co.

"First of all, Lady Cherry and Rendervisions is already back in the Web Ring, as we would like to give her the benefit of the doubt. That was even before I had seen this thread this morning; in my original message (as we all know) I invited her to rejoin. But the numbers on her site's rise to the #2 spot in the Web Ring (over a matter of a few weeks) were much, much different from every other site in the Top 15. Not to mention that those other top sites had been a part of the Web Ring for at the very least a year, and in most cases much longer. Rendervisions joined the Web Ring in Feb 03. One's standing in our Web Ring is based on 3 factors, each assigned a different 'weight'. The higher one's total weight, the higher in the Web Ring she'll appear. I'm not going to share those numbers with everyone here. Though her numbers were significantly, obviously, and oddly out-of-line with every other site in the Top 15, not to mention on down the list. Most of the skewed activity was recent, reflecting the meteoric rise to the top. Is it possible for those numbers to be arrived at legitimately? Of course...Is it likely?...Not very" Ummm actually Asher it is very likely. You may not think so but after rosity had so many damned problems over the last month how is it NOT LIKELY that a few sites made a metoric rise to the top. NOT everyone goes to Poser Pro's, Rotica, Commune and the like. I honestly believe you owe Lady Cherry an apology. "Is it likely? ... Not very"

Well Renderosity should have spoken first and shot later, cause now they've started a stampede to Rendervisions, wonder how the numbers will look now. Things will unfold as they should, the fear motivation never works out, and the cream always rises to the top. I heard this annonimous quote recently," There's only one art in America, and that's business." Lets not let this growth in our communities lead to WW3D.

from AsherD: [ to Lady Cherry at Rendervisions.com ]
"We have removed your link in the Renderosity Web Ring. We have extensive experience in the amount of time it takes for a site to move up to the number two spot, and the rate of your site's advance is cause for attention when we believe the results were not achieved through legitimate means. You are welcome to rejoin the Web Ring and participate on an even field. thanks,
--Asher Renderosity Admin"

To: --Asher Renderosity Admin

I joined Rendervisions roughly 4 months ago. I was member # six hundred and thirty-something.
Now...membership has topped the 2500 member mark. That's a big increase in traffic. And a lot of them are the "get in there...roll up your sleeves...and help out" kind of people. (Happy to know them.) The site wasn't much 4 months ago...Zero posts on a lot of the forum categories...Only about 75 images in the gallery...Only 2 or 3 names listed as "Admins and Moderators"...A marketplace that mostly sent you elsewhere, including Renderosity I might add, for your items of interest. But with Lady Cherry and Enchanting Mirage plugging away at it...it has grown, and grown quickly. There are now about a dozen moderators...Hundreds of wonderful images in the various galleries...And a marketplace that is gaining in both content and quality.

Your above statement talks a numbers game...."we believe the results were not achieved through legitimate means."....so does that mean you "believe" your results are? I, for one, logged into Renderosity over 3 months ago...I have not logged out since then. Do you "believe" I have been online -At your site- for all that time? I doubt it...yet with all your number crunching, "No Red Flags"? Of course not....That's one more number in the "There are currently xxxx surfers online." column. Not a peep from anyone saying.."You should log off when you leave." or "Please don't remain logged in when you depart the site." How many would truly be "Surfing Renderosity" if they all logged out when they left the site. "Legitimate means?" ...sounds shifty to me. I think the key to understanding the above statement is this: "the rate of your site's advance is cause for attention".... Is it attention? or alarm? Do the big boys feel someone breathing down their necks? Is another site offering a better deal to vendors in the marketplace? Is another site treating the artists that support that site with more respect and dignity? Is another site helping new artists instead of acting like they are a burden to the site? Is another site getting "your" customers? What you did was nothing more than a blatant monopolistic act in an attempt to stifle the competition. "Even playing field"...my microsoft ass.

-Henk Stenkel
Former Renderosity Member

BTW: I have "Logged out"permanently.

~blinks~ I think in the near year I have been here I have "logged out" four times or so...not because I logged out but because I ran windows washer..or such that it took outmy cookies. as it is I stay logged in for convience. but that does NOT mean I am here 247. lordy. do they think all the memebers are here all the time? Renderosity you need to listen to the people that are speaking. it is the members that make or break a site and you can see that you are making more enemies then friends. this deal with Lady Cherry is alienating many many MANY people. you ARE loosing money and potential customers. Our words DO matter even if you wont listen becuase even if -you- dont listen to what we are saying here others are. You are loosing customers and members. Your actions of condemnation and of hangman antics is only showing an insecurity of your own grasp on your own site and stats. if you were worried or concerned with Lady cherry's stats befor they must just terrify you now. Please Reconsider this action.

Here's my two cents. [ and my being new here shouldn't affect anyone's oppinion, because it IS my opinion.] If I had a website called "Renderosity" and someone came up with "Poserosity" and then "Rendervision", I would not give them a link on my website... In fact... I'd try to lose them entirely. Do you know that the ONLY reason that I would consider looking at "Rendervisions" is it appears to be in colaboration with "Renderosity"? Doen't anyone think THAT might be an unfair way to gain popularity and respect? Maybe even enough respect to take you to the "Big Number Two Slot"?

FrenchToast - there was in fact another site a long time ago that named itself "Renderocity" by a long time Renderosity member, well known & skillful merchant. At no time do I recall her site seemingly to fall under attack or given the cold shoulder by RO because of the knock-off name. And to me, that one is a blatant knock-off. There is also currently a site called Renderotica - which is self explanatory in name, but that I would not consider a knock-off at all of Renderosity.

Also, to name a few others:
3D Commune
3D Arena
Poser City
Poserworld
Poserstyle
Rendervisions

Part of the reason for 'similar' sounding names is evident to most - it involves 3d/Poser and they want the name to stand out as such - and that will end up with some names sounding very much the same. And of course, you will have the people who want to bank on knock-offs of a site's name - I'm in NO way saying any in that list are such, btw.

The reason RO has their webring is to link sites of a similar nature - this by their own admitting. And many of them are sites that either operate independently as a community itself and/or have 3d items to purchase. RO has been growing convulsingly and in similar fashion changing how they operate as a business and allow access to certain 'proprietary' (as they feel) information and/or areas. This is their right as a business - but as a business that runs a 'community', they are going to upset, dissapoint, and down right piss off a lot of people who are sure gonna let them know it.

RO does not discourage cross-site knowledge in terms of trying to stifle direct competition. They consider themselves to be number 1, but certainly not the only player in the game - and hey! - they'll even show ya where the others are, just jump into their ring. :)

So, What are you trying to say? It's not a coincidence.

Well I tried to log out permanently... How in the hell do you get out of this crazy system? I can "log out". But I am "still" considered a member. "I WANT OUT - TOTALY". I no longer want to contribute, be part of, or in any way shape or form add to the Renderosity numbers. Remove me and anything associated with me from this site. Yesterday would be better than tomorrow.

HenkStenkel - there used to be a 'leave' button when a person no longer wanted to be an RO member. It appears that it doesn't exist anymore. I'd say i.m. an admin to have yourself removed as a member. French - what I'm saying is that if a site's success via webring stats due to being named what you consider to be knock-off of 'Renderosity' were to have happened - it would have happened long before Rendervisions came along.

but that is the thing Frenchtoast..renderosity got pissed because they grew TOO popular IN RENDEROSITIES web ring. Lady Cherry has been a contributer to RO for a lOOOOOOOOONG time. the names are due to similar interests and the term "render" which we all know from doing anything in 3d. it was not some outsider coming and "stealing" ROs idea or name or anything. what they got pissed at was that her site started growing immensly and they werent geting anything out of it. Lady Cherry has valid stats.not made up. not stolen from RO, not HACKED...honest stats that apparently either RO at a whole or Asher as a person didnt like. She didnt Take, steal, or in any other way unlawfully get anything from Renderosity. ~smiles a tad saddly~ now though..people are leaving due to ROs actions not Lady Cherrys.

Renderosity does not have the market on names like "Poser", "render" or the like. They do not own them, they can not own them and anyone has the right to use them in a name.

Well AsherD, i think that you at the very very least should take a look at lady C's stats. If you are so sure that you're right, then what's the harm? I think this hole thread is disgusting, but i'm not really surprised anymore. But one good thing came out of this, i discovered lady C's site and am now a member:)

Well, like I said... I'm just putting in my two cents. To me, it would be like a band named "Metal Zeppelin" coming out on Swan Song Records and suddenly making it into the top ten. Hey, anybody can use those "words". I'm not willing to argue about any of this, because I don't know any of the personalities involved. I really am a new comer; It just struck me like that.

The thing to remember is that it all relates to Poser or "Rendering", etc. That's why sites have names like Renderosity, Poserworld, Poserpros, etc. I'm not trying to argue with you either but the subject matter is much smaller in this case with a smaller dictionary, so to speak, than the band theory. :) It's just a fact than anyone with a 3d site name has to accept.

Even if Lady Cherry's site did have a name that was similar to Renderosity's, that doesn't give them the right to accuse her of fraud and then refuse to apologize for the accusation while simultaneously refusing to review her logs and other evidence that there was no fraud committed. bonni

Seriously Asher needs to apologize and review those logs. Oddly enough there are things that are 'right' and things that are 'wrong'.

The name Poserosity was used a few years ago because I wanted to keep the posername and for a lack of better thought we added the osity to the end, This with the fact that we were OFFERING FREE WEBSPACE FOR RENDEROSITY MEMBERS TO HOST THIER FREE STUFF AT RENDEROSITY (To ONLY help members here). Because we knew that it was hard to find a good web host. (Eventually we had to drop the free hosting because of a couple of malicious users) As soon as we changed our site and had it professionally hosted and we added a gallery and became a real community we decided to change the name to Rendervisions. Why did we change the name? Well we felt as though the poserosity name was too close to renderosity and the fact that it locks us into one program. Rendervisions gave us the chance to be a community for ALL artists, All programs. Now we offer free webspace to dedicated moderators and active merchants on our site. Just something to give back to say Thank you for being with us. We believe the better we do the better the community should do as well. Not Vice versa. We are an artists community FOR artists BY artists! Our site will continue that slogan untill I Breath my last breath. I work hard every day to make sure artists get seen and heard. I know when I started how difficult it was for me! I dont want anyone else to go through that either. Much Love, -Lady Cherry

[ off the subject ] While I was reading your paragraph on offering webspace, for a second it looked like it ended with the word VISA... heh... nevermind :o

"Since we do not have a way to just ?reset? a sites statistics to zero, we had to remove and have the site re-join the web ring. The site is already back in the web ring and we will watching for any possible issues, so we can address concerns quickly." Does that also mean you have no way of reinstating the old statistics if you find that nothing wrong actually occured?

i am new in renderosity community..never had any sort of problems ( just once the administrators asked me very kindly to retouch some images of mine that showed explict male genitals a little " aroused"..lol.i am uploading my art almost everyday and made some very good friends ...but, after reading all this stuff here i decided to join rendervisions right now (september,18,saturday)...and i think the site is gorgeous...ill do my best to support , somehow, the development of a new way of exchanging art, thecnics and whatever may interest an art community,always respecting the community rules, of course... a great and restful weekend to all!!!

...I love it when people read old threads. Congrats Odrah...You've made a great choice in RenderVisions. See ya there.