"Dirk are you saying that those 10 people programmed their own software?????" Beating that dead horse again....actually, there ain't nothing left to beat.

Not beating the horse any more , just swatting at the flies on the rotting carcus!

NO.....the 10 people take what they created, embellish upon it, and make it a true work of art...click, click, click, click render, save and post does not make you an artist..if you get 47 comments on a pic that took 10 minutes to create, that doesn't make you an artist either. Now beat that dead horse

LOL @ d-larsen....is that what that thing is? I really couldn't tell anymore.

I got me a big stick now Im doing some wacking!!!!!! Ok lets put this another way, what is art? What is not art? What defines something as art? At what point does a stack of cans suddenly transform into art and at what point is it just a stack of cans?

I'm going back in to the lab and see what's on the slab!

Dirk, maybe YOU take only 10 minutes to setup a render.. without loading props, background, hair or anything, just using 1 figure, morphs and lights, I'll take a hour or two sometimes. Add in props, background compositing, various photoshop techniques, I'll take 4 hours easy on a picture. Longest time I took, was 2 days. Now is that art, or not? And if it IS then length of work time defines art? I don't think so. So what do you call people who reproduce oversized product labels, like Andy Warhol? You cannot deny that he was a very famous artist, (Keeping in mind that it's not if YOU liked his art or not.) If HIS stuff is art, then why is POSER stuff not art? From Webster online: ART: the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : FINE ARTS (2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art

"Longest time I took, was 2 days." That ain't nothing, some of my still lifes take months to get it all together. The least time I took on one of those was about 2 weeks. Oh, and by the way, Dirk doesn't do any image in 10 minutes. Everything he has done has taken a couple of days as I've gotten emails showing where he was on completion an image.

"Ok lets put this another way, what is art? What is not art?" How WE define our art doesn't matter..and definately not some dictionary definition, etc....art is defined by who is viewing it and what THEY think of it. Bury that horse now and be done with it.

Gotta say it Who cares!!!!!! Whether we are artists or not, doesn't matter, we make some damn fine pictures between us all and give us and other people lots of pleasure. Others make money from those pictures or from providing us with more items to make pictures. If you're happy with what you end up with at the end of the day, doesn't matter what you're called. Best wishes Jody

well... "some" folks make fine pictures. and lot more people call themselves poser "artists." probably the only thing missing in poser art is real critique. people can call themselves artists. that's fair. but being able to stand up to rigourous review is the only valid final determinant - sofa art, "elvis on velvet," and chia pets not withstanding.... and sometimes that takes time. consider the "novelist." there are quite a few folks who are in the midst of writing "novels." will they become "novelists?" when? and isn't that partially a function of those that review the "novel" - editors, publishers, and readers? christo is a fine example. will his work stand up to the test of time? certainly, he stands up to critical academic review. part of the the "problem" is that poser (and 3D in general)is a "hybrid" tool - utilising 3d notions to create 2d images. hence, what "metrics" are used to gauge the "quality" of the image? what technique? cinematic? photographic? drawing? painting? sculpture? theatrical? at least, that seems to be part of the "problem."

How long does it take a photographer to take a photo? And does he have to build the landscape himself? If anyone says that a photo can't be a work of art because all the photographer did was buy a camera and press a button after squinting through the lens for a few minutes, then frankly, they don't know what they are talking about. As for this 2D-3D thing, you need to go to the sculptor for "real" 3D stuff. But we know very well what is meant by 3D computer art. No need to split hairs.

I do see a difference between a rendered image and an aesthetic image.

Some rendered pictures are as good as modern art at least and some might say better... Some renders dont use much imagine, though and these are the kind that wouldnt be called art.

Ok all this is getting us no where and has been said over and over again. Art is in the eye of the beholder not how you do it lets just go on with our art and stop beating the horse. :O)

art is created by someone who takes the tools they have, and makes art with it. Owning a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter, but it can sway arguments with those who disagree..;)
I think folks are confusing the tools with the end result. Artists have taken a box of crayons and made good art with it..everything was already packaged in the box, but it's what you did with them that's art, or not.
I've seen good and bad Poser stuff, and most of it's done with the same tools and models..I made a pic or two with models I've made, but I'd hardly call myself an artist..;)
(loud agreement, shouts of 'hear, hear'..;)
What makes an artist is training, an inner vision that you translate to whatever medium you're working in..my inner vision has pictures every bit as good as the best Poser pics out there, it's just translating that image to the screen that doesn't work..;)
I wouldn't worry about it, there's plenty of room on the site for hobbyists, artists, and all those in-betweeners..'sides, it's only the high-end-package users who trot this out, anyway..;)

When I painted in oils & acrylics I never made the brushes,or gathered the pigments for paints. I didn't harvest the wood to make the stretcher bars, nor did I weave the canvas. I believe you get my gest. I believe I am every bit, and as much an artist now as I was then. :-)

I didn't bother to read anything but the first message in this thread (we have these threads about once every 2-3 weeks), so here's my .02 reply to the original message... - If I'm the head of the modeling dept at GameCoX and looking to hire someone to create new 3D models for my company, I want to know how good a '3D Modeller' they are. - If I'm the head of the marketing dept and our models happen to be Poser compatible, and am looking for someone to render some ads, then I might be interested in how well they know and can use Poser. - If I'm head of the Advertising dept at J.C. Pennys and need to contract out some work but don't really care HOW they came up with whatever image they did, then... well, it doesn't matter to me HOW they came up with whatever images they did, as long as it fits the job and if it can be done on time (one great benifit of Poser is all the pre-made content available.. can work wonders for meeting tight deadlines). ...the problem with your original statement/question is that you seem to lump everyone into '3D Artist'. The people who mostly complain about Poser the loudest have thier own definitions of that term (that suits them, of course), but more often really means '3D Modeller/Artist'. Can Poser be used to 'create beautiful 3D art'? Absolutely. It's just not a great modelling tool.

(hit the Post button too soon)... Can Poser be used to 'create beautiful 3D art'? Absolutely. It's just not a great modelling tool If you create beautiful 3D art using Poser, does that make you a great '3D Artist'? That depends on how you define '3D Artist', but it probably makes you a great Poser artist in any case. If you create beutiful 3D art by starting with a bland Poser image and do most of the work in PhotoShop, does that make you a great '3D Artist'? Probably not (again, depending on the definition), but it doesn't mean the resulting image is any less a work of art.

well hopefully i am glad i never dare to call myself artist, i already have enough difficulties makign peopel understand that, aside from using many other's people works/items/products, i still have my .02 of time and skills thrown into the process. i rather like referring to myself as a "magic render button" pusher :)

Oh, no......not this topic again............

someone please call the NYPD ASPCA animal cops!!!! theres some serious horse beating goin on here! shame...shame......beating a helpless horse!

Hi Mom!

i am so late on this one but..... poser users use bought stuff to better them selves, but there are those out there that use just a base model, and do there wonderful magic to make an image there own, with out the use of bought stuff, and sometimes it does help, like if you where doing a painting on canvas, youd have to buy the canvas,paints, easel (or what ever is usufull) other wise how are you going to paint! you have to buy the stuff in order to do that, or if you are lucky enough to make you own paints, canvas etc, then you are among the privaged few! like on here, there are that privaliged few who dont use a hell of a lot of bought stuff, but there own imagintation! i on the other hand buy stuff, but some of the time i dont use it, but wish i could be among those few who dont really need them! anyhoo, enough of my waffle! ttfn!

John, both are the real artists. Earlier in this thread, texmax said that poser is to 3d, like paint is to a painter, but that's not true. Poser is to 3D as a camera is to a photographer. Paint in itself is nothing, it has no form or shape until put on the canvas. 3d models have shape and are already elements when put into the scene. I tend to look at poser as art direction in film. One takes props, people, lighting, etc, and puts them together to portray the mood that the audience is meant to see. Does this mean that these people are not artists? You don't think Peter Jackson of Lord of the Rings fame isn't an artist that is creating a vision of Rivendell? There are people who will always judge art by how long it takes, how it was done, etc, but to the end viewer, there is no difference. The picture either touches them or it doesn't. As artists ourselves, we tend to dwell on technical skill as a measure, but in the real world, there is far less of that. When I look at a piece, I look simply at it's content, not how the artist got there or what they used. You don't trash a director of a film because Pauly Shore was in it. Er, bad example, but you know what I mean. :)

ShadowWind

well put ShadowWind well put!

From what you are saying John I am not a real artist. I paint using oils on canvas but I don't weave my own canvas, I mean how much time do you think I have. I also don't make my own paints, although I can, I just mix the paints I have to get the tones I require and those tones are all mine 'cos no one else ever mixed those paints to get that particular tone before. For me this equates quite well with using Poser, I buy models and textures, even poses, but most of the time I pose the figures myself, I make my own textures for the clothes the figures wear. I arrange all the figures and props as I would if I had actual objects and people to paint and create a scene hopefully unlike any other that has been made before. It is the thought that goes into the creation of a scene that makes it art not the tools used and as far as I have seen there are very few individual models that I would call art in the true sense of the word. Catlin

"For me this equates quite well with using Poser" And foir me it doesn't. When I am evaluating the skill of a 3D artist (as opposed to simply evaluating the art) I consider the meshes, textures and so on to be part of the work - not a simple and common tool for the work. Victoria is a much, much more substantial part of a image than the chemistry of paint is to a painting. The analogy in computer art to paint is photoshop and no one says your not an artist if you didn't write your own image editor. The real analogy is to the art of collage really. Collage IS art, and can be powerful art - but for me the more truly origional items there are the more likely the work will stand out. But hey, I use Poser all day so clearly this doesn't bother me any... I never claimed to be an artist anyway :)

Difference is what makes us all human and if you see things differently from me then that's fine. I don't agree with you and that's fine too. Catlin

I've never said that I am a 3d artist. But I have said that I am having fun! I don't actually care what anyone else says anymore - I like using Poser, I can create images that before I could only see in my head.