Check out the hot 20. The top image was posted last year and shot right to the top. Now it's there again. As you recall, it caused all kinds of controversy when it was first posted - mostly because it's a piece of fractal crap, but somehow it made it to the top anyway. So, did 28 people have a party today and vote that old image to the top, or did one person figure out a way to vote for an image several times?

I am curious to know myself how that piece got back in the hot 20 What a controversy that was at the time ! :/

Ok, I'm no great artist.. but what the HELL is that, and where did it come from? o_O

Don't know what happened, but don't like it. Checking into it... Nick

ROFLMAO!! Or one of those net acronyms that means something like "it is to guffaw". Aww, Keith - be nice. I think the floral pastie is VERY skillfully and artfully placed, giving sort of a mischevious, coquette-ish sort of vibe, ya know? :>) Pretty Primo Pastie Positioning! lol Wow - 28 votes has to be a record! Good thing I printed the page yesterday - I was pretty darn jazzed about it! Looks like a TOS thingie, I guess. Odd that someone would feel they have to pull a stunt like this in a gallery with such a supportive and friendly vibe as this one. The person only has one image, but I'd bet if they had been someone posting here regularly, they would have gotten lots of encouragement - and helpful critique - from everyone and would be having too much fun to think up stuff like this. Whaddaya want for nothing? Actually, I've heard of people having multiple galleries here under different names. Matt comes to mind - he was Midday Crisis and Criminally Insane simultaneously at one time, last year. I guess its conceivable someone could spend a bunch of time and make up 28 e-mail addresses and nicknames.... nah! In the immortal words of George Thurogood - "it don't confront me none..." lol

LOL Rick " coquette-ish " Thats had me in stitches... thats exactly the right word. still chuckling

Was wondering that myself. Kinda defeats the purpose of the hot 20 if someone can petition enough voters to vote on a work that old. The saddest part is that there are some great works this past week or so that should be taking one of the 20 slots that it is taking.

I've never paid much attention to the top 20. Yikes, maybe I should from now on?

Why has this image now been removed from the Hot 20? I've read the TOS and can't see where this made a single violation... As far as i'm aware the only requirement for being in the Hot 20 is that you get enough votes...This image had enough votes so it obviously deserved to be there. I would like an explanation of why an image that doesn't violate the TOS should be removed from it's rightful place in the Hot 20? If it was just removed because some people "don't like it" then it should be put back, ASAP! Matt.

Matt maybe it was removed due to Keith's question about whether one person found a way to vote for an image more than once or not. If 28+ people did actually vote for it independently, then fair enough shrug The number one image in the hot 20 atm certainly has an enormous amount of votes too

Has anyone looked at the #1 image today? It is a different image! It says it has 38 votes, but I looked at the image and there isn't even 1 comment! Something really screwy going on around here!

lol matt, must be because i used the NON-VOTING button Harmen

I noticed the lack of any comments too when i went to look at it. Its very strange.

someone must be really annoyed of making fractals around here, and never get any comments nor votes, most likely its the same person all the time

Even if only one person voted for it then it still deserves to be there. There isn't anything in the TOS that says a person can't vote for an image they like, as many times as they like. It may not be fair...but as far as I can see it is perfectly legal!

your right, lets get all 30 accounts and vote for our own pics, thats fair... isnt it :-)) j/k smile

No thanks, I'll pass. I already have over 40 accounts after getting those 2 images into the Hot 20 ;O)

Judging by the reaction, it looks like someone is getting a good laugh at our expense. I say we find them, burn their gallery down, and string them up for the crows (LOL).

Sounds good to me, aeires. (LOL)

well lets change the whole idea of hot fractal top 20 into hot fractalartist top 20, so everyone has a chance to get into it LOL if it is so important for some to be in there why shouldnt it be changed smile

There's a comment on it now. That person has been victimized by the scumbag that has figured out how to do multiple votes. Renderosity has a small problem with their hot 20 voting system. I'm finding this to be sort of amusing. I am curious to see if or how it will be resolved. I have to give the guy credit for getting right in the face of it, although I feel a little sorry for the victim.

I'm such a simpleton here...I don't understand how this can happen. How can someone pull someones work into the Hot 20 like this?? Please explain in simple language for me. ok? Thanks and hugs, Helen

Hi all

First-
The image was not deleted, but simply moved to 'mixed media', where it was better suited anyway.

Second-
The situation was all too fishy to begin with. This image sparked quite a commotion in this forum awhile back, and to now all of a sudden resurface in such a fashion, well...

Third-
Looking into this, the member had quite a list of clone accounts. Now if these 'clone' accounts were used to vote for the same image- that is against the TOS.
Specifically this part:

"Intentional practices that affect the normal operations of the community"

Hope this helps to make it clearer. Unfortunately, there is always someone out there with nothing better to do than ruin a good thing, and I'm sure this problem will not fully go away.

Nick

Yep, let's burn down his gallery and string him up for the crows. This time not LOL. aeires

Intentional practices that affect the normal operations of the community? Sounds like a get out clause to me... Correct me if i'm wrong, but... The "normal operation of the community" is for people to vote for images they like and if it gets enough votes then it gets into the Hot 20. Isn't that exactly what happened here? Where is the TOS violation? Even if one person voted 28 times using multiple accounts I don't see where this is a violation of TOS. If this person likes the image so much that they are willing to do that then who are you and I to tell them that they are wrong? If Renderosity has a problem with people doing this then they should find a way to stop it. Not persecute people that do it... Matt.

At least it is not hacking the Renderosity database when someone uses clone accounts... thinking he or she's very original... I still remember a certain guy here who was leader in the Most Viewed gallery and every day he got more of his images in there, because they gathered hundreds of views every day, but comments only from his clone accounts. He is gone now...

On another note... I see images posted all the time to this gallery that are just as much mixed media as this one was... If you are going to appoint yourself as a judge of what is acceptable and what isn't, then you need to go through the WHOLE gallery. Moving any image that doesn't belong here to the gallery that you think it should be in. The image contained a fractal and has the right to be in this gallery. I think it should be moved back in here! Matt.

I am against having my images moved by someone without my permission. In most cases I have chosen the gallery intentionally. The next step would be the admins exchanging images with others? I do hope that this will not come.

Hot 20: Votes a valid for only one week. Perhaps images there should not be older than three weeks? That would always give us the possibility to see new beauties (or popular stuff).

I've just re-read the TOS and found that "Intentional practices that affect the normal operations of the community" is punishable by banishment...Pretty severe...Especially since nothing has actually been violated... It is legal for a person to have an account and vote for any image that they like... It is legal for a person to have multiple accounts and vote for any image they like using any of those accounts... Therefore it must be legal for a person to have multiple accounts and vote for the same image more than once... Am I wrong? Matt.

What is the problem then to repost the image? And have a joy voting again and laugh on those simple guys over there?

@Matt: In this case is better to stop all voting, its not interesting anymore. Except for those people which like to lie to themselves how great they are.

Unfortunately as it says in another recent thread in this forum...One persons crap is another persons masterpiece! What right do we have to stop people voting on an image just because we may not agree with them? Matt.

The voting seems to become a kindergarten amusement. As I said above - in this case the voting is just useless.

I never care for images in the Hot 20. I use the Hot 20 from other galleries to have a fast look on a random choice of popular images and find something that might be interesting for me. The Fractal Hot 20 does not contain images unknown to me. And if I find my own there I am happy, and if not - why worry about it?

Matt, I find your rationale on the multiple voting thing to be somewhat specious and more than a little disingenuous. The basic, bedrock principle of the idea of voting in a democratic or pseudo-democratic system is ONE MAN, ONE VOTE. Period. Regardless of how many accounts an INDIVIDUAL has set up for themself, they are still only ONE PERSON. It is illegal in all democratic societies for a person to vote more than once per election for any given elected position and this is what is termed as the "normal operation of the community". Hope you don't get mad at me for speaking out, man - I like your wit and art and consider you a friend. Let's not cloud this issue with hyperbole. The bottom line is that voting more than once for the same image is CHEATING and does a disservice to those whom conform to the free and normal operation of any group. Now we can bandy about the other aspects of the Hot 20 or the supposed "popularity" of the artists that have works residing on the list and some points are well made. Personally, I'm not offended or bummed my image was bumped - I'm just honored so many thought enough of it to bestow such an honor that it made the list. A better thing might be to not have the same image stay up on the list for so long, which would give many more a chance to be on the list if that is what makes them happy or feel energized to keep going. The idea of creating and DISPLAYING images for ones self only seems ludicrous, too. Why display them at all, then? It would be illogical and a large waste of time that could be spent creating more. Truth is we all enjoy the creation of our images, but we post them in hopes someone else will like them, too. Been that way since we were little kids running thru the house with our latest stick-men drawings to show to Mom so's she could ooh and aah over them. Our "skill" as artists doesn't improve so much from "helpful critique/opinion" (though coaching on a personal level helps) as it does merely through practice and experience and encouragement of a new artist to continue can be a key factor in whether or not they bag it and move on or stick with it and become proficient with their chosen program(s) We ALL had to start somewhere. Anyhow - gotta get back to work - sorry for the "soapbox" junk... Rick

BRAVO, Rick!!!

Don't worry, Rick, I won't hold it against you. You have as much right to voice your opinion as I do. I would love to think this was a democracy and majority rules applied, but that isn't the case. When one person can suddenly decide to move an image from the fractal gallery into the mixed media gallery regardless of the original artists views and reasons for posting it to the fractal gallery, then i'm afraid that isn't democracy, it's a dictatorship. I'm over the whole 'votes' thing now but what has really got my back up is the image being moved. I can't believe that me and Andreas are the only people here to voice our concern over this. This is an issue that effects everyone on this site, if you just sit back and let it happen then next week it could happen to ANYONE. I'm sure we would have people coming out the woodwork to make their voices heard if it was a popular image! Unfortunately because this image wasn't and still isn't popular then people are willing to just let it happen and not say anything! So you all just go right ahead and not say a word about it...But when it happens to one of your images and you feel violated...Don't expect me to speak up on your behalf! It may be a little confrontational on my part, but i'm not in the mood to sugar coat what I say today so that people can swallow it easier. Shame on anyone that lets this injustice slide by unchallenged... Matt.

I don't think the issue is whether it was moved, but what the criteria are. This isn't the only site that moves peoples works around, just probably the most lackadaisical about it. Perhaps a clearing up what constitutes what should be in the fractal gallery would clear this up. I've had some mixed media posts myself, and wondered if they were appropriately posted. As long as there was a reason given, which there was, there shouldn't be a problem with egos getting in the way. Regardless, I don't think there would have been a problem if it would have been a normal post. I agree with Rick on the subject. Because it entered the Hot 20 under scrupulous means, it received the most attention. If it was me, I wouldn't have moved it to a different gallery, I would have deleted it altogether for cheating. The whole thing infuriates me because there have been a great amount of exceptional posts this past week. Whoever owns the Hot 21 was done a tremendous disservice, not to mention all the votes for the 21st piece were stomped on because someone "hacked" the system. Jeff

Rick, I have never said that I display images just for myself, obviously I upload them for everyone to look at. I just don't make them for anyone else... If I did then I would still be doing the Bryce/Sphere combos or the layered flames I was making last year. They got a lot more votes and comments than the Apo Faces I am doing at the moment. But because I am happy just making images that I like and not trying to make something I think will get a lot of comments or votes, then I will continue doing my own thing, just like I always have. Matt.

someone "hacked" the system. Nobody "hacked" anything. I think you should scroll up and read my previous postings, I already admitted that it was me who voted the images into the Hot 20. All I did was get a lot of accounts. The penalty under the Zero Tolerance rule for "Intentional practices that affect the normal operations of the community" is a permanent ban along with any clone accounts...This i'm actually looking forward to because I have WAY too many accounts at the moment. So i'm just sitting here waiting to be banned...Gee, I really hope they spank me first... Keith, a person isn't victimised by having one of their images voted into the Hot 20 by me. The victimisation occurs when other people start leaving nasty comments on those images saying they are crap and don't deserve to be there. Maybe you all ought to look at yourselves and your intolerance of others before you point the finger at me... Still waiting to be spanked... Matt.

You know Matt, I think I'm beginning to like you. Love it when someone is so passionate about something that they will go through such an elaborate, intricate, and exhaustive plan just to prove a point. Must have taken an enormous amount of time to log in, vote, log out, and repeat for at least 38 times. Very persistant. Jeff

Fair enough, Matt - I stand corrected. I, personally, enjoy very much viewing the "own things" that you do. I agree, for the most part, about the Moderator of this gallery moving the image to another gallery. Though, I would think Nick would have spoken to the artist involved if he'd had a chance before doing so. My surmise is that the artist was unavailable to be consulted and, since it is (and was when this happened with the same image last fall) the only post in the gallery of the artist, that it can be extrapolated that its sole reason for being posted in the first place was for the purpose of this disruption. I agree with, Jeff, in that I probably would have deleted it and - I'm guessing - Nick probably moved it as a "politically correct" action that was less drastic than removal. I'm just guessing here. On the other hand, I agree wholeheartedly that the staff here should not just unilaterally snag images of bonafide contributors and move them to other galleries and we SHOULD complain LOUDLY and LONG if that happens. There are a lot of "gray areas" when it comes to fractal art, it seems, and I'm sure many "purists" - whom are entitled to be that - would have a problem with many of the images on the fractal pages. The Poser gallery is more easily categorized - its for images where the main focus of the image is the use of the software called "Poser". Same with the Bryce gallery for images made predominately with that program. Here, there are a large number of fractal generators, so its just called the "Fractal" gallery to simplify things and there's a looser standard, I suppose, for what constitutes a "fractal" image. Certainly my stuff would raise the hackles of the old fractal purists of years past. In any society or group, there must be at least some "rules" or "laws" to keep everything from collapsing into anarchy - hopefully very FEW rules/laws! At some point the rules need to be enforced, though, and this IS a company's property that our files reside on and they reserve the right to call the shots in their own "house". If it had been any other situation where the image got yanked, trust me - I'd be right there with you lambasting the "powers that be". I just heard from a friend who posts at Deviant and he said that they deleted one of his posts because it, supposedly, wasn't made with a fractal program! It was an IFS, flame-like image made with the fractal generator, Visions of Chaos. They threatened to ban him for it, as well. Thankfully, we don't get that kind of treatment here. Rick

Ok, so a couple more messages appeared whilst I was painstakingly pecking at my keyboard and thinking over my words... Dang, Matt, whats up with this stuff, man? As to Keith's "intolerance", I'm sure he recognised straight away there was mischief afoot and - I assume - would never have spoken as he did if, say, the second image had appeared b4 the first one and he hadn't recognised it as the one sparking a bunch of "noise" the last time. I can't speak much to the original episode of the "pastie fractal", having not gotten involved in that stuff. Ain't gonna point any fingers - shoot, I just liked looking at your images, man....

Ok, I worded that wrong, I wasn't saying Keith was leaving nasty messages (as far as i'm aware this hasn't happened). It was just that he was the one who mentioned it, but I was talking to everyone in general. There have been a couple of comments left on the image in question...

Whoa! this just got really weird. To create and log on under 38 different accounts and vote for an image is just plain strange. Matt, did you do that the first time too? the one from last year? Is that your image? It's still crap and it doesn't deserve to be anywhere, especially since it was being used as a tool to abuse the system and everyone involved. The admins shouldn't spank you Matt, you would like it too much. Go cut off your ear or something. And you can take that as a complement. You are a great artist, even if you are insane.

LMAO, Scouts honour! That piece of crap isn't mine! This whole thing started as an exercise to show people that they should take the Hot 20 with a pinch of salt. If I can manipulate an image to this extent then there is no reason why someone can't do it regularly to a lesser extent for their own gain. Someone who isn't as honest as I am and wouldn't own up to it. I purposely waited until Rick uploaded an image before doing this (sorry, mate) because it would have more of an impact. Before anyone says anything...No, I don't think Rick is manipulating votes to get his images to the top of the Hot 20. He gets a lot of comments and a lot of votes and they're all deserved. Anyway, I just noticed something really strange (apart from me, Keith, LOL). After spending all day venting in this forum I went out into the gallery and started leaving comments on peoples images and actually enjoyed it! I think having vented sorta chilled me to the point that I could just say what I thought. This may sound weird but one of the reasons I started to cut back on the amount of comments I left was because I felt that what I was saying didn't mean anything. This is one of the reasons I started to go on about leaving constructive criticism. I wanted to feel like what I was saying actually meant something! Some people may think i'm talking crap here and wonder what i'm going on about but I have never found leaving comments easy. I'm not comfortable leaving gushing, praise heaping comments on peoples images. Likewise, it makes me uncomfortable when I receive that kind of comment since in my own mind I have never made an image that was worthy of it... I know sometimes like in this thread I come across as surly, but MOST of the time that is just me having fun, I don't mean anything by it, you really should take everything I say with a pinch of salt (WOW! you wait years to use that expression and then end up using it twice in one posting). While i'm still in a confessional mood. I should apologise to ClassyLadyTwo. The comment I left on your image was made while I was still in venting mode and may be a bit blunt. It should have been helpful, and I hope, like you said in your IM, you can can see it as constructive. Ok...I'm ready for my spanking now, Mr. De Mille! Matt.

LOL can someone explain to me exactly WORD for WORD what a fractal is? For i would like to discuss that first before i say something else. What program do you need to make a fractal anyways. For all i know there are just two different programs, one is bitmap oriented and the other is vector oriented. To which category belongs a fractal program? Vector oriented yes... uhm so is poser, and lightwave, also 3dsmax, lol with photoshop you can make fractals too, fireworks, oh and flash too, even with C++, uhm and etc etc Oh and may i remind you people that a lot of fractal artists flourish up their stuff with other images, whether its being taken from the net or made by themselves. If it is the case that a fractal gallery should only contain fractalized designs and not a combination of this with various other images, then i would suggest that almost everyone who use additional images, to move their stuff immediately to the mixed media category, as the moderator did that also to that multispoken image we were talking about in the first place. Think i move some of my designs to another gallery as well, for they are not really fractals according to the previous comments contained criteria. Or Kurt [Rumple] and i will just have to move to the artmatic pro / voyager gallery, for we aren't really 'fractartists', but feel like home in this fractal gallery :-)) The discussion will take long before we come to the conclusion that we better stick together in this gallery, and enjoy each others art and designs, with or without a fractal generator. smile Harmen

One more quick thought... In the comments I have just left (all were on flame images since that is what I am most knowledgable about) the most extreme superlative that I used was..."Excellent spiral". All the others I left comments and a simple "nice or very nice". Isn't this enough? Why does everything have to a "stupendously, brilliant and amazing masterpiece!!!" What is wrong with making an image that someone finds nice? Surely the main point should be that I found the image "nice" enough to leave a comment on it...Without feeling pressurized into leaving it because the person was expecting me to... I would rather receive a simple "nice" from a person that means it than all the "stupendous, etc etc" from 20 people who just feel obligated to comment on my image. I think there should be a clinic for people addicted to superlatives, they seem to be spiralling out of all context at the moment. Can't we all just be "nice" and get along? Matt.

Hi Matt,

did I really read correctly? It was you under several accounts voting for a randomly chosen image by someone else and making many in this gallery suspect this artist to be cheating? And only for showing us that cheating is possible - something nobody really has been aware of (irony!!, be cautious.)???
I must say, you disappointed me (once again).
The posts about democracy, one man, one vote (how many votes do women have??), moving images as sign of anti-democracy are just results from a childish experiment?
Do you think we need to know how the world is turning around? And you are the one who knows? And all the other people here the ones who don't?
And in the end you complain about the inflatious use of superlatives? A topic from just another thread (Keith started it)? Something that really hurts the world?
Renderosity is a hobby of many who are here. It is cyber reality. Not reality. Reality is outside of Renderosity. When my children are ill. When someone looses his/her job. When I have to learn that one of my friends has got cancer. When some people play war in other countries. These among many other facts are essential. The hot 20 is a toy. Exists only when I start my computer. When I let such a half-real thing touch my ego then I have made a mistake. Then I should start thinking about priorities in the real parts of my life.
Just my two cents (euro)...

Andreas

rub it in... the hot20 is a farce