Just curious.

;)

Nope

Well gee, Spike, with all the deleted posts, I just assumed! Sorry, my bad. Somehow I'll try to find a common denominator between all these posts. Somehow, I'll piece them together; somehow, they'll all fit and it'll no longer be a puzzle, but an explanation. Like tea leaves. Move along now folks, the show is over...move along...move along.

We are talking about maybe opening up the VT forum, but we first have to put a better system in place. Maybe with the help of the members, we can come up with some ground rules and make it work. Maybe a list of topics that will not be allowed?

V T ???

Never mind. Virtual Tavern. Doh.

Maybe with the help of the members, we can come up with some ground rules and make it work.
If I remember correctly that is what members where trying to do by asking for examples of "personal attacks" which you have vehemently refused to do.
Maybe a list of topics that will not be allowed?
Maybe you should just give a list of things that the ones who claim (IMHO imaginary attacks) so that they can be catered to and properly entertained?

Just a suggestion.

It all starts again before it even begins.

"It all starts again before it even begins." Humans and their emotions! Damn them all! :)

I second that one Dialyn...~sigh~ never ceases to amaze me..

Ain't that the truth? We're tenacious little beasts.

Maybe a list of topics that will not be allowed? Just say "Nothing that might stimulate intelligent debate or make people think or offend anyone will be allowed."

Maybe a list of topics that will not be allowed?
And how would anyone take that? If there are list of topics that will not be allowed, obviously there is a list that will only be allowed. Since it was a select few who were constantly complaining (and we all know who they were) then the list would cater to the complainers.
*"It all starts again before it even begins."

Life always finds a way.

How would anyone take: "....the ones who claim (IMHO imaginary attacks) so that they can be catered to and properly entertained?" We can't seem to resist labeling others. So I'm guessing it's best not to resurrect the Virtual Tavern or OT, since, as a group, we seem to always revert to back to our instinct to provoke. I've got a new cat and my other cat can't seem to resist trying to do battle with him. But Ethel has an excuse. She doesn't know better. I'm going back to my edits. Good night all.

"we first have to put a better system in place."

Keep it simple on yourself: Anyone who complains to mgt. gets banned.

"Anyone who complains to mgt. gets banned." but we'll still keep you on our "active member" list, numbers make us look good!

We can't seem to resist labeling others.
And where is the label?

Maybe a list of topics that will not be allowed? Wrong thinking will be punished. Right thinking will be rewarded.

He who pokes rabid dog with stick becomes known in village as Stumpy :)

@Spike: "Maybe a list of topics that will not be allowed?" That won't work. If the idea of opening a forum, under any other name besides "OT" is the idea, with censored content, you're back at square one. You simply cannot tell the masses to shut the hell up. I have read nearly every forum on this web site, and all, at some point or another, have contained what you and Mr. and Mrs. Tim would consider a violation of your TOS. Most of the mods do a good job of maintaining some sense of civility, but at times they simply DO NOT exercise good judgment. Many of the discussions that are locked and/or deleted are actually quite important to those who authored them as well as to those who reply. I'm not talking about the ones with the racist remarks and the childish name calling, I'm talking about the discussions labeled [OT] in the forums which deal with sensitive and rational subject matter. It is more than obvious that the mods are under strict and direct supervision by the owners of this domain to see that some discussions are brought to a halt immediately, and in doing so, it is obvious and apparent the political and/or religious and/or financial viewpoint of the owners. If they don't agree with it, the thread is locked. You cannot argue me on this point, it is fact. You monitor under strict direction what is said here by the masses regarding arguing, religion and world politics. It drives you insane the heated discussions of forum members and somehow feel those heated discussions detract from the otherwise natural purity of this web site...you know, the bondage crap for sale and the pubic hair. The stuff that fills the wallet. It's all rather ridiculous. If you're going to have an OT or VT forum, you'd better realize that things will be discussed within them that some, including Mr. and Mrs. Tim, will find objectionable. You will have a 24/7/365 job maintaining any given format of "guidelines" because guidelines were made to be broken. It's human nature. People GET PISSED OFF with one another while discussing sensitive issues. It's called debate. It's what the free world enjoys. The owners of this web site need to pluck their heads from their butts and realize it's not always about them, that the content authored by forum members is content AUTHORED by forum members and has nothing to do whatsoever with the political and/or religious viewpoints of the domain owners. To be honest, I think the idea someone had to create an OT forum on Yahoo is the best idea here. They'll be able to vent, they'll be able to speak their minds on various issues without fear of the thought police who are known as Renderosity Mods/Domain Owners. But more importantly, they'll be able to argue with each other and get really pissed off which is actually a beautiful thing indeed. Solutions are borne of argument. Always. Give it up. A VT or OT with pre-determined and policed content will never work, and is a ludicrous, Orwellian idea indeed.

Attached Link: http://www.digital-cheryle.com/Offtopic/index.php

actually the ads were annoying some and the yahoo formatting was annoying others- we set up at www.digital-cheryle.com/Offtopic if you care to join

Coalition Inquisitor: "Knock, knock" Muslim prisoner hesitantly: "Who's there?" Coalition Inquisitor: "I WILL ASK THE QUESTIONS!!!" This used to be a Nazi joke, but unfortunately......

"Maybe a list of topics that will not be allowed?" Probably the most stupid idea presented here since the closure of the OT Forum... (which makes it a hard record to break) I don't think I have to dwell on why it's stupid, if you don't understand it, you should not run a community site.

"Maybe a list of topics that will not be allowed?" Don't call it VT or OT, how about "Ministry of Truth"?

Instead of VT is much better FT = Freedom Tavern, a place that you have the complete freedom of speaking what is allowed you can speak.

"We are talking about maybe opening up the VT forum, but we first have to put a better system in place. Maybe with the help of the members, we can come up with some ground rules and make it work." - Spike

Just a wild hair kinda thought, Spike, but ya'll might try looking at other existing Bar/Tavern forums that seem to function quite well and copying what makes them work might do it for you. On second thought... that'd require being able to look at them with something that resembles an understanding of how forum dynamics work. You've only got two mods on staff that are actually capable of doing that - kbennet and Rimrunner - and they're not in the policy making loop. You're screwed. Or, there's always the other option: new management from the top down, starting with the admins. Not an option. You're screwed. ;] shrug As long as you keep trying to top down manage the personalities, and keep driving away all of the members that aren't forum weasels, you're going to continue having this situation. And you'll continue having problems from being overrun with forum weasels, because that'll be the entire posting population of your site. Your biggest problem on it is that a site like this needs someone who actually knows Community Building, not PC Comunity Theory, and you sir, are no Jack D. Kammerer. ;] No offense intended to the rest of the old Virtual Tavern regulars who might read this, but I don't think it can be done. Might be best to just leave it dead. Anything that you "redesign" under your new system and ground rules is going to end up plastic and lifelike, but it won't have a great deal of life to it. Nor much personality. I say leave it dead. That way you won't end up with a TGIF trying to be a Virtual Tavern.

You need to consider, do you want this to be a community or not? If these forums are meant to be somewhere where people with a common interest can foregather and feel relaxed, and in good company, then you have to accept that sometimes people want to discuss other issues with the friends they have here. The alternative is a site where no-one has any personal investment and is nothing but a glorified look-up table of technical questions. In which case people will get bored, and not stay to answer technical questions either, and the whole place will wither. Really, I do think this matter has not been handled very sensibly. As Ironbear says, it doesn't seem to be a problem on other sites to have an OT forum; why should Renderosity be so very different?

"it doesn't seem to be a problem on other sites to have an OT forum; why should Renderosity be so very different?" Since a lot of people here are members of several (if not all) of the other sites, I doubt that it's the members here that are different... The difference must be somewhere else ;-)

Exactly!

Personally, if a "VT" forum was to exclude politics and religion, I'd be more than happy - but I can see why others wouldn't want this and you would be amazed at what topics some people can kick up a storm over. However, this site does need somewhere where we can shoot the breeze about subjects other than the software we use.

Just don't abuse the name Virtual Tavern.
Call this new forum 'The Bubble Wrapped Hangout' or something like this.

The fiction going around that the closing of the forum was directly due to the contents or attitudes of the members is laughable. Those who were there know. Incompetent moderators and supervisors were responsible. They were the ones that condoned the posting, by a moderator of prejudicial interventions that showed his contempt for some posters. The supervisors knew these posts would not witstand the close scrutiny of membership. So the Forum took the bullet for them. A profile in courage, this was not. This sort of actions point to a complete failure of the admin processes and policies and casts a dark shadow on the very integrity of this site. Whether members here want to trust people who would show so little competence and integrity of judgment with personal and financial information, is up to members to decide. But lets be clear, in the end that's what it all boils down to: TRUST. Q

"...glorified look-up table of technical questions..." LOL GREAT description of this site There are few who can teach me anything new about P4- it's because of what Phantast said in Post #28 that I seldom respond to questions or give directions to free items anymore. This stopped being a community when the hyper separation of subjects in the technical forums began. As far as our members- the site admin. seems to have forgotten. 3d Art is not for dummies, period. These people who are the core members are some of the smartest and most curious ppl on the planet. As such, that also makes us opinionated. So what!!! Here is an idea- let us talk for our self and butt out. Trolls and kiddies we learn who they are and tend to ignore. They will go away. We, as adults who are not PC all the time can defend our selfs, that is part of being an adult. treat us like that and you would be amazed at how many and who would come to your defense when you need it, and sooner or later you will. But as of now, if the Gov. came for you and this site- well- you pissed into the wind, don't be surprised if you get hit by spray. "I am not nor have I ever been a member of the communist party, senator/judge/banker" Sound familiar? Treat adults like adults and let us defend our self, that also goes for the "complainers" you bend over backwards to appease. And you know what appeasement got the British in 1939.

Thanks for the heads-up on Cheryl's forum. I've actually seen quite a few folks from the old OT here over at the Poserpros' Chicken Coop as well.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=669111

Another forum will not work unless something is changed. There were no problems in the extint OT Forum, there were very few posts locked within a long period of monthes, and the discusions were huge, people agreeing and disagreeing, people of one political party and of other party. Sometime the heat increassed, some few personal attacks that were managed very well by the moderators. It was very admirable the mature discussion of very polemic topics such as Bush, War, Terrorists, Muslims and Religion too...., here was the problem! Three thread were locked without any reason, without any personal attacks, just only by the content of the posts! Religion is always polemic, people have different religions or don't have, there will be always discusion among people and there is no reason why we can't discuss our different point of views. Of course, we can like or dislike what the other person says. If one person say that Muslims are religious fanatic terrorists, a Muslim will not like this, If another says that the Virgin was not virgin, the Catholic will not like this, but if one dare to say that the Bible was not written by God and is was written by men, the post were locked, members banned and the OT Forum eliminated! SOMEONE does not TOLERATE some posts about some religion, and not the members, we agree, we disagree, we insult, we apologize, we make war and we make peace, and at the end we all become friends, no matter if we love Bush or Kerry! Unless the things returns to normal, a new general discussion forum will not work.

"Keep it simple on yourself: Anyone who complains to mgt. gets banned." That is the best suggestion so far....think about it, how freakin silly is it to get all offended about comments made in a forum....grow up, if you disagree join the debate, if you can't handle the discussions then just point your mouse to the upper right hand corner and hit the big X.....problem solved. Also, you cannot have a list of topics that cannot be discussed...thats just silly.

Also, you cannot have a list of topics that cannot be discussed...thats just silly Not as silly as arbitrarily deciding what can and can't be discussed... ;)

lol yup. I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would want to...seen it happen in there a lot.....is no wonder moderating the OT forum was kinda like walking in someone else's nightmare.

Things are what you make them. No more, no less.

"Your biggest problem on it is that a site like this needs someone who actually knows Community Building, not PC Comunity Theory, and you sir, are no Jack D. Kammerer." ^^^^^^^ Age does strange things to hippies. 8-P ^^^^^^^

Age does strange things to hippies.
Wow, a personal attack! Time to lock the thread, move it elsewhere, and close the forum.

Yeah, close the forum!

((
(^.^)
(")")

Attached Link: http://www.hannity.com/

/sarcasm/Disaster! The site should be closed until a full Coulter/Hannitization is done! If anybody more asks about the closing of the OT forum, blame it on Clinton! Excuse me while I duct tape/plastic wrap my home./endsarcasm/

Well...who said 'oh no, not him again?' ;) Seriously Spike..what's wrong with calling it OT? No doubt things were getting out of hand, I was amazed at the way my topic went when all I asked was why had some religous posts been locked. Some of the things that people said were incredibly insulting. If anyone takes a wander over to PoserPros forums they'll see that some folk have taken their baggage with them and are spreading it far and wide in the name of free speech. The point is though, most people were ok, we all went a little OT at times. I don't think that a list of forbidden subjects is a good idea simply because it'll create paranoid ramblings from some folk(yup, the same 'some folk') The basic rules that were in place were fine..perhaps have a 'time out' symbol or a 'three strikes' system as well. If people ignore the 3 warnings then block 'em, if they return and continue then ban 'em. I do feel that some Moderators took it all a bit too personal and may have acted hastily but..it's your site. I just feel that it's a shame that the site which basically helped me to become the great talented bighead that I am today has lost so much goodwill. Come on...we need the big R and you all need us. :) As ever, your 'umble servant Mon

better system? you mean you're getting rid of this dodgy system you've used since day 1 & going with something thats a little more modern that steam powered? Mongo is Hannity pro or anti Shrub? I vote for Alcohol to be added to the list of non subjects, oops I just realised voting is politics & that's not allowed either. Sorry Spike but the idea of a list of banned subjects is pathetic.

I understand that Ann Coulter will do a speech about the evils of independent thinking for $30,000 a pop. I actually like Sean Hannity's method better, more cost effective. He just wacks ya' upside the head and says, "Understand now?".
It would not be so bad if he would wash the Brylcream offa his hands first.

And to think, every time we asked for an "ignore" button, our request was ignored. Go figure

And to think, every time we asked for an "ignore" button, our request was ignored.Go figure
You can't bowl a perfect score when you're riding a moose.

But you can score a goal at moose polo... and so it goes.

If anyone takes a wander over to PoserPros forums they'll see that some folk have taken their baggage with them and are spreading it far and wide in the name of free speech.

Crashed & burned, my friend. Crashed & burned. It didn't fly over there any better than it did over here.

Perhaps some should re-evaluate their opinions of the professionalism of those running the show here at Renderosity.

And, yeah....the Admins here can run the site any way that they like.

Same goes for Poserpros.

I enjoy/support both places. Different styles.

I like both flavors.