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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Nov 29 7:57 am)
Subject: The Last P6 Question: User Levels (no gripin)
Should it be segmented out into three versions? I honestly do not think so. As it stands, it is a strong package, quirky at times, but still versatile enough that it is used by beginner to pro. What I know of 3D modeling, and texturing Ive learned by using Poser, I started just turning the dials, then I noticed the XYZ translations, then I noticed that people were making different textures for items, and learned how to apply them. Then I saw Morphs, and learned how to apply them as well, and then I thought, Wait that one isnt right, but its the closest Ive seen. Hey, how do you make a morph anyway? So I learned that, (not very well yet, mind you, but I dabbled.) I guess what I am saying is that Poser was ready and waiting for me to discover what it had to offer me. As I grew in knowledge, the package itself would lead me along, Oh like Dynamic hair, its in this section, do this, try that, tweak this. I might not be good at it or even understand it, but it is there, waiting for me when I get the gumption to try it. If I had to stop, go out and purchase a different version, or upgrade the one I had, I probably would have been on a stronger search for an all-inclusive package. I guess it boils down to that; I like that poser has all the bells and whistles it does. I might not use them, now or in the near future, but they are there, and I can/could if I wanted to.
I think it should not be segmented... I hate to choose... should i pay 100$ (or more) for a better version or not ? If i buy a lower version (let say without animation, because i don't use it), what will happen if i want to try ? Should i buy again the whole program ? Poser6 should stay ONE unique program...
Not segmented! The best way to improve one's skills is by trying out the fancier stuff gradually or even accidentally. If you have to buy something extra to reach the next step, there's no way to [seren]dip your toe in the water. However, even an experienced user gets tired of dealing with unused stuff. One of the reasons I don't use P5 habitually is that the full complexity of the dreaded Material Room (aka Room 101) is always sitting there, showing its ugly tab on the main page; when I hit Ctrl-M, I have to thread my way through all that awful stuff to set a color. By contrast, the animation system is not a "room" or a tab; it still has to be reached and exited via the weird catch-the-box-with-the-glove game. All of these areas or rooms should be parallel; all should be reachable by menu choices and simple shortcut keys (no three-key chords); and all should be escaped by Escape. In two words: Follow Irfan.
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No "segmentation". It's just labeling. Version numbers are a longstanding standard and don't promote elitist artificial psychological "slots" for users to relegate themselves and each other into. Better by Far would be a tiered system of preconfigured interface help-levels. User-selectable options of verbose or terse tool-tips, icon labels, popup helpers or wizards, etc. That way all the features would be available to all users, and only the chosen interface would change as the users feel they've become more proficient. . . . Just my 2 cents worth....
I like First Page 2000s approach http://www.evrsoft.com/ one program. mulitipe interfaces. basicly it is one program that does it all, but the intefaces offer more and more options as you change. This will allow you to experiment with more advanced parts as you get better and to move to a "more advanced" part you dont have to buy or download more program. This could also appease the video game interface VS. standardized interface arguments. short of that, i would want only one program. Multi level program with diffrent capabilities would be detramental to content sales. Items made for the higher levels of the program (may) not work with the inferrior versions thus having less sales. then most items would be made for the lower levels and the more advanced people would complain about the lack of support. example: complaints about "lack of P5 support". Not saying P5 is neccessarly better, but it lacks the level of support in content.
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No. Because differing types says that each one will have greater abilities and more options. P5 had so many included, and many didn't work. I want a Poser where everything advertised works, in a single version, as advertised. After all, until they get the base working, what good are the higher levels? P5 working shoul dbe the base. When that happens we can talk about a professional version.
Let's get REALISTIC here An integrated program will always be preferable to a user because it seems to be giving more bang for the buck - as the features and power of a program increase, the price likewise needs to increase if the developer is to stay in business. There is the rub. Curious Labs is suffering from that very problem. On their next release they either need to raise the price of an integrated package dramatically, or make it modular with optional components sold seperately. Or somehow get people to pay via "upgrades" for the more powerful professional tools. That is just a reality of doing business. So, this thread should not be so much about what we would LIKE as customers but what we might PREFER as an ALTERNATIVE because I'm like everybody else here and want everything integrated for as little money as possible. So the realistic choices are: 1) A fully integrated program that costs about 2 to 3 times the initial cost of P5 or somewhere in the range of $500 to $1000) 2) A modular package like this: - Base posing program with P4-type render engine - $200 - High end rendering engine = + $150 - Animation System = + 250 - Scene animation import/export filters = +200 (this is already in place) - Maybe additional modules for dynamics or physics or particles. The benefit of a modular system is that you can add-on only what you need without having to re-install a package or pay twice for the same thing. 3) Third choice is what is currently being proposed - a set of TIERED applications - and my LEAST favorite because it will probably end up costing us much more than a modular system, AND WE DO NOT GET TO PICK THE FEATURES in the high-end package. I, for example don't care if animation is ever included in Poser again, and am getting pretty tired of having to pay for it. With the tiered system, I'll have to pay for it at least 2 and maybe even 3 TIMES and I don't like that. On the other hand, I know many people who really want animation, but may be tired of paying for something else that they don't use. So TIERED programs are always the MANUFACTURERS CHOICE of components in each package, and a Modular program provides the USERS' CHOICE of components. So which of THOSE alternatives would you prefer?
Ronstuff, Thank you, but: that's gripin. Good points, but still gripin. Ultimately, it's not our choice, nor our decision, nor will we have much effect on the outcome. But our opinions can be heard, and there are ears listening. This deals Specifically with P6. There will be no major new features in P6. The current price does not need to change, and odds are fairly good it will be somewhere under 200 bucks. Your response, even gripey, is more applicable to P7, where there is the (strong) possibility that there will be major changes to much of the codebase. The modular version is not a choice with P6. It cannot be counted.
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)
I think gripin is more like someone complaining about things rather than offering realistic solutions in a sensible presentation. Gripin is accusing someone else of gripin because they don't agree with you. Gripin is making a futile effort to make a point which nobody wants to hear but nontheless represents the real issue - - - - I guess I'm gripin now, huh? :-P
Knowing that you are a fan of Sonic Foundry products, let me cite the ACID Products as an example. Sonic initially released 3 versions of ACID (well, actually four if you count the free version). The free version that you could download off the Internet was limited to 8 tracks, and didn't use effects. Then there were the low-priced "Style" versions ... ACID Rock, DJ, Jazz, Latin, etc. The next step up was moderately-priced version that handled unlimited tracks (a la ACID Music); and a high-end version that pulled out all the stops with effects and busing (ACID Pro). Needless to say, it was a marketing nightmare ... and trying to explain the differences to newbie users was a task in itself. So, having tiered levels is not a good idea ... it seems to me that a modular, plug-in type approach would allow users to tap into ONLY the features they would want to use.
lmao!!! :-P hey -- didn't take away your point, hon -- just that it's beyond the scope of the question. I might have been a bit harsh, and if so, I'm sorry. As noted earlier, the could do that and call it shade. Since e-frontier's product line acros most of it's stuff is broken down that way, and since P4 has been repackaged as an "entry level" version of P4, it's a serious question. And your point of it being profit driven is absolutely dead one -- hence the most profitable methodology is the one you favor and is the one adopted by the potenital competitor. Segmentation has always proven more profitable in both hard and softlines retail (people tend to like the old silver, gold, and platinum thing. There's a whole field of sociology devoted to that!). but in order to do it, they would have to break P6 down. That would involve more coding, and introduce new problems, and the goal with P6 is to do quite the opposite. Since it is not going to be rewritten from scratch, and it is going to be fixes, this is something that has to be done essentially with things as they are at this time. Which is why I didn't include that option in the choices.
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)
Deecey -- I remember that. I was selling them all, and had the same issue. I still have both my latin and DJ packs, too -- got them 'cause it was a cheaper way to get the loops than buying the libraries at the time, lol I'm no fan of product segmentation. But it's something that's got to be looked at, as I'm fairly certain it's coming down the pike sooner or later...
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)
I don't like the idea of having different levels. It was bad enough with Pro Pack and P4. Poser is unlike any other 3D program in that it thrives on the content market. People want it because they can get all this cool content for it without having to make it themselves. Different versions means that some of the content can't be used in your version, or it's been dumbed down to be used in the other version and isn't taking advantage of the features in your version. Content makers have to put in extra resources to produce different versions of a product for each version of the program. For freestuff makers that means they don't make as much, or they only support the version they have. For vendors it means prices go up. Either way, it's bad for the consumer. I like to see everybody using the same program. That said, I'd really like ways to turn off the bits you don't use. It seems just about everybody has at least one room they never use and don't think they ever will. I hate the way those things clutter up my screen real estate and sit there waiting for me to click on them accidentally.
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MULTIPLE applications for different user levels would be best. I've said this before in other threads, and I'll say it again. You can't please everyone, and one big reason P5 gets so much "gripin" from certain folks is because the new advanced features have a higher learning curve than some people want or need. I personally would like to see MORE advancement in the animation department, and also more dynamic features. I think the only way to solve this is to have multiple user levels of the software. Like Poser 6 Artist Edition (with priority mainly on creation of still images, and more user-friendly features), and a P6 Pro Edition (which would be geared toward animation and FX, with primary focus on advanced features and much more intuitive workflow with extended support for 3rd party compatibility, even if that means a higher pricetag). Many will obviously disagree, but I believe the track record for such target marketing is very true and proven among other software companies, so why not Poser too? You'll please more folks that way.
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That bites, hon. :( I wish it were somewhat different, myself.
CL is not, and will not, make plugins, anymore. That ended, completely, with ProPack. It's certain.
About the closest you'll get to an updated one is the Greenbriar, perhaps, or the Reiss Studio one. In both cases, though, it's certainly not in the box, nor will it be for P6.
Message edited on: 06/28/2004 02:02
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)
OK, maybe I'm thick, but I don't really see the relevance of this thread. from post 20: "but in order to do it, they would have to break P6 down. That would involve more coding, and introduce new problems, and the goal with P6 is to do quite the opposite. Since it is not going to be rewritten from scratch, and it is going to be fixes, this is something that has to be done essentially with things as they are at this time." Introducing different versions would also involve breaking P5/6 down, so they're NOT going to do it. Mind you, I still think that P6 should be P5+SR5... Cheers, Diolma
Sorry, it was referring to the segmentation of Poser Artist and Poser 6 (Pro). It's ultimately easier to add known code into an older code base since they've already done it. Thus, it's theoretically possible they could choose to shift poser artist into one level, disable features present in P5/P6 to create an intermediate version, and then have P6. Since stability is the focus, they would all be as stable as possible, and provide an increase in revenue. now, bear in mind, I'm with the bulk of folks here on a personal level -- keep it a single program. But the purpose of these questions, overall, has been to look at things with an eye to what's good for both "parties" -- The artistic users and the company making the tool. The company making the tool must do so profitably. That will override the wishes of the user base. If they cannot do so, then the tool will not be made any longer. That means, unpleasantly, that sometimes marketing decisions such as this one have to be made. It's not the most important of questions. Not by a logn shot -- but it's something that is being asked out of fair interest. The results, thus far, are satisfactory for the purpose.
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)
It's not the most important of questions.
Hmmm ... perhaps it is important, though - at least, to Poser Artist users I would think it is.
Poser Artist is, as we know, Poser 4 repackaged. "Poser 5 Lite", if you choose to call it that.
If Poser Artist is to also have an upgrade path, then it makes sense to use the same code for both "Poser Artist 6" and "Poser 6". In that scenario, I still say it makes sense to upgrade the current Poser Artist to include the enhanced materials, renderer, and face room; and to keep the higher end features (dynamic clothing and hair - EDIT ... AND SETUP ROOM) in the Pro version, which would be geared more toward animation.
Message edited on: 06/28/2004 15:53
well, yeah -- it must be the way the eyes are so close together, the nose is so thin, and the mouth is almost like a big ol letter "D" but hey -- I'm sorta squinty, myself: ;)
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)
One of the complaints about P5 is the complexity and steep learning curve of things like the Material room How about two interfaces in P6, a basic & an advanced, with a setting in preferences switching between the two Newbies can start with the basic interface (sort of a P4 style) then switch to advanced when they've got to grips with the basics and want to move on
I think the point that ynsaen is trying to get at is that besides a tiered set of features, there is also a tiered pricing structure that will go along with it. Here's the problem ... not everyone will be able to afford to jump into the full-featured version of Poser 6. I would suspect this is one of the reasons that Poser Artist was introduced. If CL continues with more than one version (that is, if CL intends to keep Poser Artist as a product) they can address both markets ... casual hobbyist/starving artist (hehehehe)/new to 3D, and professional artist/developer/animator.
Oh, I hate the way these forums will lose your post if you took to long to type it! I forgot about that wonderful quirk and lost a lot of effort. grrrr.... Simply, in a lot less detail, there are many, many cons to a 3 tiered system, unless it is done just right. The key would be to ensure that the Profession Edition exclusive features had very little to no appeal to the serious hobbyist, while providing value to the high budget Professional. This is very difficult to achieve and if not done right, would run the risk of alienating the community and destroying the economy of scale needed for Poser 6 to be successful. I think it would be much better to keep the Poser Artist/PoserX dicotomy. Poser 6 should not only offer no fewer features than Poser 5, in the same price range, but needs to offer refinements and new features that will drive sales AND new 3-rd party items to drive the appeal of those new features. The fiasco over the licensing confusion for P5 targeted items killed the development of those items and has limited the appeal of upgrading to P5 for many serious hobbyists. This is a huge lesson and Curious Labs needs to make sure they do not make a similar mistake with P6! To then give CL more revenue options, espescially from the higher end professional market, with out alienating the hobbyists, I would make sure that P6 was very well suited for Plug-in support. Then, offer high end plug-ins at the same time P6 becomes available that have appeal to the real, "monied" pros and do their intended task so well, there will be little incentive for 3-rd party versions of those same plug-ins. What would turn me off instantly to CL and P6 would be to see features hobbyists are dying for limited to a Pro, high priced version. Even "simple" feature dilineations, like render size or animation length, are hard to balance. (For instance, I prefer to render to large sizes, say 4000 pixels, then do my post work and reduce from there. Many tiered 3D products limit the "hobbyist" versions to something like 1024, which is unacceptable for me). There are ways for CL to offer truly professional capabilities to the professionals that can afford them. A three tiered product approach seems to be the riskiest approach and would require an absolute commitment not to limit features with appeal to the hobbyist base to an expensive product!
You've caught the risk perfectly, fiontar, as well as the underlying point -- well captured. The only sticking point is that CL is not going to develop plug-ins themselves. That ended, quite effectively, right after the release of ProPack. They won't be developing Plug-ins in the foreseeable future, either, with the exception of the one either to or from Shade (which has that limitation you noted in rendering). The reason then, as now, is pretty simple: lack of staffing for it. Which, not too coincidentally, is tied to the poorly performed release of P5. Plug-ins are finally appearing, though -- both with and without the blessings of CL -- that are taking advantage of the support that is built into the system (the proPack plugins actually work with P5, but only for the P4 features). Since P6 will rely on that same codebaase, perhaps they should ramp up the level of affiliation with those 3rd parties...
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)
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This is the last of my series of odd questions for a short while. Like the others, it deals in possibilities, and, specifically, those for Poser 6. This one is a bit unlike previous ones, though. This one deals in "user levels". Poser, as a program, is used by a much, much wider group of people than are truthfully adequately represented here. Renderosity is focused primarily on the artistic side of things, but the software is used by Police departments, Courts, television stations, advertising agencies, and various production houses for all manner of things -- some of which aren't very artistic. However, the bulk of the advancements which affect these groups do come from this core of hardline users. These users vary in skill level and familiarity with the program, and as a result, this last question deals in something that popped into my hind brain when I noted that the modelling app I am awaiting a usable language port for comes in 3 flavors. Therefore, this question is the easiest in some ways of all of them. Should Poser be segmented into a 3 tier program, and what should be in each tier? By 3 tier, I mean there would be a Basic, an Advanced, and a Professional level version of poser -- 3 of them, with, naturally, increasing levels of capability. Note that the simplest way to do this is to take the existing ones and simply segment them: Poser 4 becomes beginner, Poser 5 would be advanced, Poser 6 would be pro, etc. Although this is the last P6 question, I will be putting out a survey soon. It will be a content survey, and will be hosted offsite. I will post regarding it when the time comes.
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)