razzelt2: regarding your last post, we ARE waiting for Renderosity to do the right thing. Which is finding out how this could have happened and adjusting their internal procedures to prevent future blunders. I have a few simple suggestions:

1. "When in doubt, contact at least two other admins before taking any action."
2. "When more than a certain amount (I suggest three or five) related posts are concerned, contact at least two other admins before taking any action."
3. "Rules 1) and 2) are overruled only when immediate action is necessary to continue the normal operation of Renderosity (e.g. viruses/hackers, criminal offenses such as child porn or warez). The community is informed of these exceptional situations by an announcement on the front page, as soon as technically possible."

I'm not trying to do the admins job for them, I'm just trying to help them do their job better. Too many blunders have occured in the recent past, something must be done.

Just seems like they're determined to stop anything that's too much fun! Those contests produced some of the best Art I've seen... Sigh I had a really cool entry in works for the Warrior conterst too... deep sigh... This sucks...

I've yet to see any official word about contests yet. Take this for the constructive criticism that it is but the fact that no one knew about this new rule would suggest that an announcement is in order if it is to be a new part of the TOS. Right now, with images being restored it looks as if contests are allowed. Renderosity has the responsibility to make an announcement one way or the other in light of all this.

I know it's the weekend but a Monday announcement makes a lot of sense.

This is a serious nature and I know I am really late on this all . I dont enter alot of thse contests because I think that there are many artists who just blow me away . But you are right .There should be a notice to an artist if they are in violation in any way .To give them a chance to change the image . I think that contest sharpens artists and makes them try harder . I know it has me . I believe that if a merchant wants to offer their products or purchase gifts from other merchants .Then why would that be wrong ??? It sucks that some realy great artists leave because of all the nit picking BS . I have never had any image removed from my gallery but was pretty pissed when one was moved to Product Showcase when it was free stuff that I was offering and I was asking opinions on how the textures looked . But I guess that would be a bit of nit picking on my part also . I hope that the moderators can get this straightened out so that we do not lose any more great artists and merchants from here Just my 2 cents Bobby

So, whats the situation now? Contests are done with, but only by Renderosity's standard by the TOS, which I thought were. Any updates of what is going on?

There will be a proper announcement about contests next week, but first we've got to discuss it ourselves as a team and get some firm guidelines in place. Yes, we made mistakes and yes, we're trying to sort this situation out but hurrying to slap a quick set of guidelines up is not the way to do this. In the meantime, if you are a merchant here at Renderosity and you want to hold a contest, then please start a thread in the merchants forum and we'll get back to you asap. If you are not a merchant here and you want to hold a contest at Renderosity, then please contact either hauksdottir or myself by im or email and we can talk about setting you up a contest page that way. Anyone can ask to hold a contest. Please do not start any new contests in the galleries here. Shoshanna.

"...but first we've got to discuss it ourselves as a team..." I'm not so sure this is such a wise thing for the admins to admit to doing. Wouldn't that eliminate the ability to hide behing the "We didn't know" defence?

As you're discussing it, remember something written by a mod way up there around post #5280, that one of the issues of the contests had something to do with copyright and trademark violations. Then look at the threads active now and tell me why no one, eithe mod or admin, has commented on the Batgirl figure being offered off-site.

The admin really got themselves in a mess... no artists' images should ever be 'YANKED' unless they 'EXPLICITLY' (underlined)! abuse the TOS. The clear thought behind this was that it would impact their profitability somehow (funny how a company employee can become a pawn to this)... but it 'BACKFIRED"! That often happens when greed enters the equation...

Message edited on: 09/18/2004 15:07

The whole copyright aspect of this is bunk the images are not commissioned works, they are not being reproduced and sold, the closest thing I can think of to this would be a costume contest and DC comics and Time/Warner arent going to sue Johnny for wining a bag of candy because he had a very creative homemade Batman costume. Its a matter of scale and precedence, a private individual wins a art contest with a pic of Spiderman and gets sued by Marvel and 20th Century Fox right thatll happen

Ok Yeah thats bunk.... I mean, there have been literally hundreds of contests run thru here.... why would they just suddenly stop them? And above all else, just delete them without warning. Yeah... this is stooooooooopid.

Ok I have a question... If we have to post contest entries, where do u post them to?

Message edited on: 09/18/2004 16:36

Shoshanna, Jeny, it is a good thing to create new guidelines and revise the TOS. But there's more that needs to be done. This mess is a symptom of a far more serious problem: Renderosity has grown BIG. It reminds me very much of my previous employer, a small company that had grown big and forgot the fact that a large team spread out all over the country needs a completely different organization and structure than a small team located in a single building. My previous employer is expected to go bankrupt this fall. I do not know the exact number of moderators, coordinators and admins here, but I expect they number in the dozens. With so many people, a well-defined organization, and clear and unambiguous rules and procedures are vital to survive. I don't know these rules, I only know the TOS. And I wouldn't be surprised if many of the staff don't know much more than the TOS themselves. I categorally refuse to believe any of the renderosity staff has malicious intentions. But without a clear internal structure messes like these are bound to happen again and again. Don't only treat the symptoms, treat the disease. I love Renderosity, and I really would hate to see it go down due to the lack of organization.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/contest.ez?contest_id=408

If you have an entry to submit to the Hissers & Hooters contest, then either click on the link in the contests section of the front page, look in the contest main list by clicking on the contests link in the top bar or find it via the attached link.

The submission box is at the bottom of the contest page.
Thumbnails need to be 100x100 for contest entries.

Shoshanna. edited to add: sdvl, that is exactly what we are trying to do. Thank you for your constructive suggestions, they are appreciated :-)

Message edited on: 09/18/2004 16:47

LOL @ Mock... great analogy! Like I said in a previous post here that was yanked by admin (because I referred personally to YouKnowWho)... admin acted as if the pictures were life threatening! Only to the pocketbooks of the Bondware Board Members though! Right now they are laughing all the way to the bank. I can just imagine 'Mr. Big Bonware' on a yacht somewhere reading this thread and laughing with all his cronies... put 'that' olive in your martini and drink it!

Message edited on: 09/18/2004 16:51

I found it... thanks a bunch hun :o)

In the meantime, if you are a merchant here at >Renderosity and you want to hold a contest, then please >start a thread in the merchants forum and we'll get back >to you asap. >If you are not a merchant here and you want to hold a >contest at Renderosity, then please contact either >hauksdottir or myself by im or email and we can talk >about setting you up a contest page that way. Thank you for proving my point about priorities and favortism! :o) ~Jack

Well from the comments I have gleamed from JenyK and several other sources it seems painfully clear that the real problem is that there are "no admin" in here full time...these people work for Bondware in other capacities and may in fact only check in here on a coffee break or something.Most of the time when you contact them by pm or email its the only way to get a response...this would also explain why so much happens in the forums and gallerys that they are totally oblivious to even though they are the one's listed as overseeing that area of the site.They are paid employees of "Bondware" of which rosity is only a part...they are appointed to these positions and because of their other dutys they don't have the time needed to watch the site like they should.

If this is the case then it revs things up one more notch...cause you can't blame overworked employees of a corporation for the greed of their employer.I worked for a firm in 1989 that had been successful on a local level for years,then they started getting a lot of big contracts and rather than hire new people to handle it...the owner forced his existing employees to do it because he didn't want to pay additional salarys and benefits.We couldn't keep up,people were overworked,quality diminished and deadlines were missed...there was no one who could tell Mr Pierpont what was in his own best interest cause he was boss and didn't have to listen to anyone~so the businesses reputation falterred and in 1992 he lost everything because even local businesses wouldn't use his services.The irony being that one of his competitors did hire new employees and even hired us when the business collapsed...they were willing to spend money to make money,they grew so prosperous they moved their hq to NYC and Pierpont fell into such dispair he committed suicide in 1995~thats the difference between understanding the foundation of your success so that it flourishes and the despair that one can sink into when the weight of losing everything because they didn't understand what becoming a victim of your own success can mean.

Rosity does not make product,it is a free market and its the merchants that sell product...rosity is a community and its the community that the members are here for.You can buy the products sold on rosity anywhere and more merchants that formerly only sold on rosity are now moving to other sites...if events like this aren't dealt with then the sole reason why members traffic here and why merchants choose to sell on rosity will be lost.

I don't think people are looking at the big picture on this as I have done.I have hammered Jeny because she should never have done this on her own~I can also accept her apology for doing this and since reperations are underway to put the images back we should forgive.However,Jeny has also repeatedly stated that the admin knew nothing about this which is ludicrously false and comes off as an attempt to put blame on the members...but moreso,it is also a slam against the admin because the only way they could not know is if they are never in the forums unless someone pm's them and they are never in the gallerys~ummm,guys~then who is running this site?

What rosity needs is at least one admin whose sole job is to monitor the site,to handle public relations and to communicate with the admin...erm,could get someone like that easily guys and I bet at far less than what you pay the existing admin.

I have been in here hammering away hoping to get other admin to step forward and correct some of the implications of Jenys actions,but the fact that they haven't and must wait til next week to get together on this kinda reinforces what I say about the admin not being involved in whats going on in here as it shouldn't take a week when they can get on any instant messenger and have a conference among themselves.If they had someone over public relations as I advise,all of this may have been avoided because they would be in here watching the site and any action that might be taken by Jeny would first be submitted to this person to see what they know...if they know nothing about the issue or think its something for discussion,it would also be their job to contact the other admin to discuss the matter.

Rosity is still set up like a small site in regards to its TOS,its set up as a corporate holding in regards to its administration and its so large its no longer capable of managing the very elements that are the foundation of its success.

Marvel Comics went through a period where due to the greed of the comic book industry,they raised prices beyond what they were worth to consumers...Marvel was the leader in this and as their profits dropped,they came to rely on a core group of artists whose popularity was the sole reason why they had not become insolvent.When these artists realised this and wanted the publisher to create a new line for them that they would share a level of control and profit in,Marvel balked~the artists formed their own company called Image Comics and Marvel went into bankruptcy.The thing with Marvel is that they own and create their own copyrighted material...thus regardless of who owns the copyrights,the products will survive and we will probably be familiar with Spiderman and his cohorts for centuries to come.Renderosity does not have this...if it loses member support and merchant faith in their ability to make money for them,rosity will be no more.But it won't just be rosity~when Marvel went bankrupt it was a conglomerate holding numerous businesses and investments that nobody understood would go belly up if the comic book line falterred because everything was built upon it!!Thus,Bondware and every holding Tim Choate possesses could likewise go belly up if Bondware is built upon the success of Renderosity in any way...the irony of Marvel Comics is that the value of the company fell so much that they are now owned by a company they once owned,so maybe Bondware will survive.

I do not come to this with no understanding of whats going on in a general sense...I understand public relations and I understand that you must put forth every effort to ensure that the foundations of your success remain strong and profitable...in this case the foundation is the community itself and the issue here is that the community is suffering from the current policys employed by the owners.Simple enough to fix...but the people in charge of fixing it must be capable of understanding what the problem is.Apparently the owners aren't involved...the admin are basically employed for other roles at Bondware unrelated to this site and have little time to devote here...so umm,whose minding the store?

Hire some people to handle the site exclusively,to manage public relations and coordinate the admin...thats the only answer!!

Armorbeast, excellently put. While it is important that the current mess is being cleaned up, and the TOS revised, it's more important to deal with the big picture and the big problem. A full-time employee managing Renderosity full-time will be a great step in the right direction.

To continue what is being said in the previous couple of post. In most business's, upper management, mostly- only has a life span of about 2 years. That is to say- your boss's and formans only stay in that job or at that company for 2 years. Why? because they become too comfortable in there position. They stop haveing new ideas. They either want to coast-- or they spend all there time defending their position. A tatic we see here- just try and make a statement about sales anywhere else and see what happens. To shake things up- move people around- mingle with the customers and suppliers without fear of retaliation is a must. Which is especially important if a company is expanding very fast. Decisions made on control issues- like who to make mods- instead of who is the best with the software- who knows the most about where things are on the net ect...- Allways lead to bad policy- Chooseing people on who you can control is often a sign of insecurity in there position of authority. And the last point. When people are in there jobs for too long- they loose prespective. They stop seeing the forest for the trees. Lets use the copyright debackels that go on around here- Here is a fact never said- You have to PROVE that the loss of income is greater then about 2500 dollars. Otherwise your case can only go to small claims court. Serving papers ect takes a lot of time and $money$. If you can find the persons location to begin with. Plus- if you do go to small claims court and do get a judgement in your favor- collecting the judgement is almost impossible across state lines. And virtually impossible across countys and oceans. Forest for the trees. Jenny knows this. But she's been doing this job for so long all she see's is the law and not the reality of it all. Such as worrying about weather a person make fan art of a movie. Well- my point is- almost ALL of the admins here are in the same state of denial and protection. To close to the problems to see the solutions. A shake up would/could revitalize this site. As with us 'artist'- we have to try new things- new challenges and techniques- to grow and expand our skills. Admins need new challenges. But ofcourse- tim will never see this post or care what we see and know.

Wow...good pointers...

Lol,reminds me of a job I had in '95...the owner came in and for a change talked to the employess,as a result all the supervisors were fired and the lead people demoted~the people who reported the problem were promoted and profits soared. Not sure if thats quite the same as whats going on here as at least a few of these people are new...but it does kinda seem like there are a lot of trees in front of the forrest here at rosity.

Trees in front of a forest in front of a brick wall.

Brick wall? Hehe, I've got a sledgehammer and I know how to use it. Just kidding.

Message edited on: 09/18/2004 19:31

"Here is a fact never said- You have to PROVE that the loss of income is greater then about 2500 dollars. Otherwise your case can only go to small claims court. Serving papers ect takes a lot of time and $money$. If you can find the persons location to begin with. Plus- if you do go to small claims court and do get a judgement in your favor- collecting the judgement is almost impossible across state lines. And virtually impossible across countys and oceans" Almost entirely incorrect. The correct part, btw, is that small claims court is usually handled for "small claims". The rest is not entirely conversant with current copyright law -- notably the additional provisions of the DMCA -- and is not applicable to the federal court system as described. Oustside of correcting that small issue, I'm keeping out of this.

try it! and see how far you get

Why Jack, nice of you to show up. It is fascinating that the only time you show up around here is to bash the PTB and stir the pot.

Only reason why I come here anymore is to troll through the free stuff, and visit the forums every September to watch the management shoot themselves in the foot for making, yet another, boneheaded move.

Troll, interesting choice of words. Very descriptive.

the following one saw myself and DSI ejected from our hard work on this site

No hard feelings about that eh? smirk

Ever since the ejection of Willow and Grey

Didn't Willow and Grey choose to leave because of a disagreement with Edgenet? No love lost between Willow and Grey and you either Jack.

Ever since the ejection of Willow and Grey, Ed, Diane, Ironbear, DSI and myself from the operation of this website, Renderosity and its Community has been slowly suffering and has quite honestly become quite stifling.

Stifling? I don't see any of the PTB stopping you from voicing your criticisms. The only time you post is to point out how bad things are here and yet the PTB has never attacked you, tried to stop you from posting, deleted your posts, or banned you. As far as being ejected...(another interesting choice of words) perhaps the management here had their reasons for doing so, reasons they didn't feel a need to share with the community. Most companies consider such information confidential and don't share it either.

The C&D forum was removed, the Off Topic forum that had been set up to replace the C&D was removed, the Tavern removed (though there is a Den one now) it has gotten pretty much to the point where the only real talking you can do that may not be On Topic is either in chat or Site Messaging

Well, as it says in the banner at the top of the page, this is an "Art Community". Seems like the primary focus of an Art Community ought to be art.

On this website you are a nobody or a sheep unless you one of the top vendors in their online store or a serious kiss-butt with TPTB here.

Well, some of us come here to share information and art. We have lives outside of this site and the internet where we are "somebodys". It's not important to be a somebody here, it's important to have this site as an artists resource to share that common interest.

Thats not a Community. You want to know what a Community is really like? What it is like to see the owners of a website encourage their members and themselves to be a Community? Try Renderotica, 3D Commune, Poser Pros, hell AniMotions has more of a Community style atmosphere than this place.

Having an off-topic discussion forum or a policy allowing personal attacks or forums where members can "square off" in verbal gladitorial combat isn't necessarily encouraging membrs to be a Community. All the sites that you mention are fine, nothing wrong with them, but...there's really a small core group of members that seem to actively participate in them.

The ONLY Community atmosphere I see coming from this place is from the members of this website, certainly not from the owners and from where I sit

Seems to me that's where a community atmosphere is supposed to come from...the members.

Bottom dollar folks I could care less if you keep coming here, pumping your hard earned money into this site and its online store. Nor do I care if you wish to continue paying for the privilege of posting more than a couple of images on this website a day, or sell your products in this sites store

If you don't care, why are you bothering to bitch about it? If you don't care, why are you encouraging people to leave? It wouldn't have anything to do with the following one saw myself and DSI ejected from our hard work on this site would it...nah...no way.

Sure, the other websites I mentioned (Renderotica, 3D Commune, Poser Pros, FaerieWylde and AniMotions) also are run by people who run a business on their websites and try to make money from the 3D and Poser Community

Well gosh, if only people would leave this dastardly place so those that run other communities wouldn't be forced to advertise their products in the Renderosity Product Showcase anymore.

The only care that the owners of this website have about the members and the Community here is just HOW MUCH MONEY they can get from you.

Renderotica cares so much that they don't allow anyone to advertise on their site unless they sell there. They don't want their members going to any other store, it isn't in their "best interest" and that's according to their new ad policy that can be read in their General Discussions forum. It's a dog eat dog world out there Jack and everybody wants their piece of the pie.

I know personally that Diane, Mark, Greg, Thorne, Menhdi and Russell interact, partake and encourage those that are members of their sites to BE a Community, and constantly work with their members to make their sites better not just to make money off of them, but to also make it better for those that visit their sites THAT is what a COMMUNITY really is.

A community is different things to different people, but mostly a community is "an interacting population of various kinds of individuals (as species) in a common location". It's the people that make the community, not the owners of the location. Now I'm sure there will be a lot of rebutals to my comments, but when all is said and done it's a matter of choice. If you choose to stay...stay, if you choose to go...go, but only participating when you have something negative to say does not lend a lot to your credibility but it does make it appear you have an agenda.

geoegress: I'm not sure if your post #326 is a reaction to my post #324. If it is, let me assure you that it was a little attempt at some humor in this otherwise nasty and serious business. I have no intention whatsoever to use a sledgehammer on someone, either physically or virtually. It wouldn't be very constructive. But let me also assure you that I will not let this rest. I'm not interested in pointing fingers and laying blame, I just want this community to function better. And I can be very persistent. So yes, I'll try and see how far I get.

Some people think that others like myself and svdl (maybe lol) are too hard on the admin over issues like this...truth be told we may not be hard enough.The community is the only reason we come here,we don't care whatsoever about buying stuff but its just natural that if you enjoy a place you'll do business there if its offered.The problem is that the community is largely if not entirely a free zone meaning you don't have to pay anything to participate...but without the community rosity would be nothing as other sites offer merchants better deals or even produce their own products so you basically have to deal with them~rosity doesn't! The admin don't seem to understand that its the community that makes this happen...but then again,I honestly doubt they have the time since they are employees of Bondware first and have other dutys that must come first.So who is watching this place?Nobody most of the time and its not the admins fault...I fault the admin only when they make boneheaded mistakes like this,but exactly why this happens all the time falls squarely on the owners shoulders since they see fit not to employ someone to manage this place fulltime. As for other sites...they're all smaller than rosity by quite a huge margin and its much easier to manage small sites with fewer members~that said,almost all of these sites (including DAZ) focus on the site itself as the source of their income and their employees actually work for the site~the admin here state that they work for Bondware and that their principle dutys lay there...makes all the difference doesn't it;)

One rebutal: Dufflebag wannabe!

Rebutal to rebutal: Billionaire wannabe!!

Dude, AB, I was rebuting Grey upthere. Actually he's more like a fannypack.
Hey, lets see who gets to #400.

Since there are no more fun contests, we have to find something to amuse ourselves.

Message edited on: 09/19/2004 01:32

You mean I can't be a billionaire then...damn,thought maybe something good might come of all this;P Actually I think something good did come out of it in a way...I think we now understand that the admin aren't in here when we need them because they are employees who work for Bondware and come in here only when they have time which in this case appears to be not enough to know whats going on.In truth I now have a better understanding of the admin...this isn't their key job and I know for a fact that some actually moved to Tennessee for their job with Bondware.They uprooted their familys and for many I'm sure being an admin here was at first a great idea that they embraced...its a great community,but for them to take any action in a situation like this could cost them their job~being an admin in here isn't worth that so they're just hoping it blows over. But this could all have been resolved had the attempt to put blame on the members not been made and one of the admin simply stepped forth to explain what happened and take accountability.They may still do that...but I think they're making a mistake by not doing so at this time because from the pov of public relations,when Jeny made these remarks immediate intervention should have taken place.They still need admin in here full time and who can coordinate with the other admin to make things run smoother...it all falls on the owners and they may not even be aware these things have taken place. Now that we understand we're on our own...maybe I'll lay off the admin,but then again since the owners almost never take part in this place...erm...well darn,guess the only ones I can hold accountable are the admin.

Yeah, ya better lay off the admins, AB. I don't think their coffee breaks are long enough to read 380+ posts. I understand this is a business and public relation isn't their priority. I am sure by monday this whole thing will be a distant memory, and it'll be business as usual.

Well,I can say its done good business for the other sites...funny thing would be if people actually did stop buying here and only came here to take part in contests and what not~erm~yeah,but its the profit from sales in the marketplace that keep that going so I guess if you stop buying you might as well find another site anyway...this one won't be here anymore;) Lol...sorry,someone who's afraid to comment in here made that point to me,one of her friends is an admin here and she doesn't want to hurt anyones feelings cause she agrees with me and shared some secrets she was told;P

Dude, AB, I was rebuting Grey upthere. Actually he's more like a fannypack.

Such a childish response JV, but then, we've come to expect that of you. I stand by what I said, people that come here and post only when there is an opportunity to snipe have no credibility.

JenyK screwed up big time, and she deserved to be "lashed" for it, but not by those that are only here bring down the site. If they had any interest at all in improving things here it would be a different story...but they don't, many of them have their own reasons they would like to see the site fail and none of them are altruistic.

Bottom line is, why does Bondware maintain Renderosity? Because it's income. How can we get Bondware's attention? By hurting their pockets. Like AB says, I don't think it's reasonable to blame the admins for having not enough time to do this job properly. The only way to alert Bondware itself is not buying here (no income) but being active in the forums, the galleries, everywhere else (generating traffic and occupying server space: costs!). The merchants have more power, if they pull their stores and sell elsewhere, it hurts Bondware income. I know of one merchant that has pulled her store here. Probably won't make a big dent in Bondware's income, but it is a start. Please don't read me wrong. I do not want to hurt Renderosity. But someone higher up in Bondware must be made aware that only a well-saintained Renderosity will continue to generate money!

It takes a lot of anger to cause people to vent this way.

Jeny did apologize for what happened, and the images have been restored for the most part. The issue is now behind us. But there are some who are still upset.

Why? In my opinion it's because the feelings expressed in this very long thread have been held in for a long time. The reaction to this single incident is due, in part, to a long history of bad decisions and mistakes. So, allow me to be a bit proactive and offer some suggestions:

Renderosity HAS gotten too big, and too much to manage. So one of the alternatives is to cut back on what there is to manage.

(1) Combine some of the forums. Do you really need so many?

(2) Be more selective of the items that go in the store. Focus on QUALITY instead of QUANTITY and you just might see sales INCREASE while your bandwidth requirements DECREASE. However, it should be important to note that this won't happen unless Renderosity plays a little bit more fair with its vendors. There is NO advantage to being exclusive to Renderosity ... what incentive is there to go that route?

(3) Improve the site navigation. Right from the front page, isolate the marketplace from the forums. Create two distinctive areas ... those who want to shop or see what is available go directly to the marketplace. Those who want to learn or ask questions go to the forums. It's good, sound web design and really is as simple as that to avoid MANY of the issues that continually crop up with posts being moved from one place to another.

(4) Consider one SLIGHT exception to the "no commercial posts" rule. Allow software manufacturers the right to make product announcements and upgrade announcements in the forums that deal specifically with their software. The MOST likely place that software users will go to for this information is the forum that deals with their software.

That's about all I can think of for starters.

Message edited on: 09/19/2004 10:21

First off -- no offense was meant, and wasn't raggin on you. Secondly, I have. I've successfully pursued cases in China, Iran, India, Germany, Bolivia, and Mexico. And those are merely copyright cases. Under federal law, I've filed DMCA suits for dollar amounts of -0-. Won two, four pending. Award in the two cases won lately was 400 bucks -- already in the pocket of my client. One of the cases pending at this time involves over 30,000 in fines and a 3 year prison sentence for posting the images in question online -- and this is despite the fact that they didn't make a dime off of doing so. I have tried it. It works. Oh, and my costs for doing so? I've spent less than 300 dollars of my clients' money. THe nicest thing about the DMCA is that the government assumes the burden of costs. knowing the law is the first step to using it. Otherwise it just uses you. hmmm -- that could be applied to the month of september overall, I think...

Thank you for noticing, Grey. :o) and thank you for your continue support of this community. btw. Just so you know, my last post disappeared. I guess it struck a nerve somewhere and here I thought bondware didn't care.

Well Mr. Tower you are entitled to your opinion, right or wrong as it may be and like me, you have the right to express them. And yes, I have to agree with you, because of actions that happened in the past to me in this place my actions and comments could be held suspect by those who so choose to. However, I don't believe I need any "credibility" to suggest (or in your words "encourage") to those that are unhappy with the way that this site is being operated to go visit other websites and Communities out there to those that have expressed unhappiness with the way that this site is operated so that they may find a more suitable atmosphere that they might enjoy. Now if I was asking them to perform a mass evacuation to ONE particular website or one in which I owned (which I don't own any anymore) then yes, it would appear that Id have an agenda (as you put it) and my credibility would then have to be a consideration. However, I mentioned (or tried to mention) every other Community website there is out there... despite whatever personal feelings that I may have in regard to its owners or the way those sites are ran, in the interest of being fair and to be of some helpful assistance to those who are tired of the same 'ol song and dance here. If anyone's credibility or agenda should be examined here, quite honestly, it should be that of the owners of this website and that of your own in your defense of them, and whatever value your input brings to this discussion by trying to drudge up my past to try and cover up or spin the people's attention away from the fact there are some serious flaws transpiring on this site that are causing these individuals and many others to become as frustrated as they are. As for my not caring about whether or not people decide to continue to frequent this place and spend their money here, is because those individuals who do so are quite happy with where they are and are likely to stay within the Poser Community. However, the reason why I am bothering to bitch about it (as you so call it), is because I DO CARE about those that might leave the Poser Community as a whole because they feel that they arent being treated the way that theyd like to be or left wanting while here and rather than see them LEAVE the Community, Id rather see them continue their interaction within the Community as a whole, at another website where they may be likely to find what they are looking for. I would think you, a member of this Community yourself, would want that as well but that doesnt appear to be the case judging from your post. ~Jack

because of actions that happened in the past to me in this place my actions and comments could be held suspect by those who so choose to.

Jack, actions that happened in the past and your continued posting only when there is a shitstorm, and then only to bash the PTB is what makes your motives suspect.

However, I don't believe I need any "credibility" to suggest (or in your words "encourage") to those that are unhappy with the way that this site is being operated to go visit other websites

Why do you need to suggest that at all Jack? Who appointed you caretaker? People can think for themselves and make up their own minds. People that are unhappy with this site are perfectly capable of bailing out on their own and most people do know there are other sites out there and they do visit them. Without credibility Jack, you just sound like a disgruntled former employee with a grudge.

Now if I was asking them to perform a mass evacuation to ONE particular website or one in which I owned (which I don't own any anymore) then yes, it would appear that Id have an agenda (as you put it) and my credibility would then have to be a consideration.

Come on Jack, it's not hard to believe your "loyalties" lie with Animotions and Renderotica...you were a principal in creating them; however, as considerate as you were by mentioning the other sites, face it Jack, it's hard for some of us that have seen you in action since you first appeared at Renderosity to believe it was out of concern for the "unhappy members". It's not that big of a stretch to think you might giggle with glee at the thought of mass evactuations from the Choates, and aren't beyond "encouraging" that to happen.

If anyone's credibility or agenda should be examined here, quite honestly, it should be that of the owners of this website and that of your own in your defense of them

Ah, but you see Jack...I didn't defend the owners of this site. I have no agenda...I'm not the one that goes to a one specific site to post negative comments everytime something goes wrong the way you do here.

and whatever value your input brings to this discussion by trying to drudge up my past to try and cover up or spin the people's attention away from the fact there are some serious flaws transpiring on this site

I didn't dredge up your past Jack, you did. Wasn't it you that said in post#238 Lets the first September this site was opened saw Willow and Grey get ejected from their hard work on this site, the following one saw myself and DSI ejected from our hard work on this site and Ever since the ejection of Willow and Grey, Ed, Diane, Ironbear, DSI and myself from the operation of this website, Renderosity and its Community has been slowly suffering and has quite honestly become quite stifling.

However, the reason why I am bothering to bitch about it (as you so call it)

Hey, blame that on Merrium-Webster's Dictionary, they added "complaint" to the definition of bitch.

However, the reason why I am bothering to bitch about it (as you so call it), is because I DO CARE about those that might leave the Poser Community as a whole...rather than see them LEAVE the Community, Id rather see them continue their interaction within the Community as a whole, at another website

I'm sure most members know there are other websites out there, and I'm sure they can find there way there...if they haven't already. If all you "CARE" about is keeping people in the community as a whole, you could have just as easily left out the redundant song and dance about the evil PTB, and made a post saying something to the effect that for those that are interested there are other Poser related websites to frequent, and you could have included links.

I would think you, a member of this Community yourself, would want that as well but that doesnt appear to be the case judging from your post.

Appearances can be deceiving Jack. Personally, I seriously doubt that anyone leaving this website because they are unhappy with the PTB are going to leave the "Community as a whole".

You know Jack, you really aren't a bad guy. Once upon a time you did a lot for the community as a whole; you also know you're no angel Jack and you've done your share to disrupt the community as a whole. Sometimes though, you (and some others whose names I won't invoke) are like a shark, the minute you sense blood in the water you're there looking for something to bite and if you can't find it...you encourage others to do the biting while you circle around enjoying the scraps. That just isn't fair to the members of this site or the Community as a whole.

First of all, I'd like to say to Mutedbanshee...Tracey, you know I love you, and I don't think you did anything wrong! Contests have been run in the galleries forever, and now should not be any different. I could understand if the PTB had to judge and or moderate our own individual contests, but they don't. However, rules are rules, and now the contests are only in the contest area...moving on. Yes JenyK made a mistake by jumping the gun! I don't think any of the images should be removed from our galleries, no matter what the name is. I can understand if the image itself is sexually explicit, but the NAME? I think deleting the images as well as the comments is bad form, especially if the contest itself has been moved to the appropriate localation. OK, I've vented. I only hope I haven't angered the PTB! :D