The point I was trying to make earlier, more than anything, was not that one was harder than the other, or more creative than the other, only that they use different sides of the brain.

The left side of the brain is more analytical, and that's the side that 3D modeling would mostly use. The right side of the brain is more "creative" (ie: emotional, passionate, expressive, etc) and that is the side that texturing would mostly use.

Considering that the majority of people that use Poser are right-brainers (ie: creative types), it makes sense why few of them/us proceed to modeling. Texturing is a natural progression for artists because it feels comfortable to them. Modeling may not feel as comfy, so fewer jump into it.

Message edited on: 03/14/2005 10:59

There is a saturation of textures on the market, I think partly because with all the good quality texture resource packs out there it's gotten a lot easier to make them and more hobbyist are jumping into the marketplace. Clothing on the other hand, is a much more technical endeavour, not only do you have to master your modeling and UV mapping app you have to jump through a lot of purely technical hoops with the cr2, the joint parameters the ERC morphs etc...and for hobbyists (which is how we all start I guess) that becomes extremely time consuming. If you do this part time as I do it can take 2-3 months to pump out a clothing pack, that's if you don't get so frustrated you give up on it midwiay. This is probably why there are 10 character pack to one clothing pack.

I don't think texturing is necessarily more "right-brained." Rather, it's more detail-oriented. The part of the brain that accountants and copy editors use. Modelling is more spatial - the part of the brain the engineers and airplane pilots use. (While modeling can be very detailed, it doesn't have to be.) Both are equally creative. In fact, the argument could be made that modelling is more creative, because you have to make something new. Texturing is just modifying something that already exists.

Texturing is less intimidating for many people, but IME, isn't not necessarily easier. Sure, anyone can make a texture. But making one that looks decent is a whole nother story. I do on occasion make my own textures, but they look awful. If I tried to paint my own belt, the edges would end up looking jagged, the seams probably wouldn't match up properly, and buckle would look pathetically fake.

It's not easy to model conforming clothing, but that's due to the difficulties of the conforming process. Modelling non-clothing items is pretty easy, IME - more so than texturing. I have very rarely been able to make a texture for an item that I'm willing to show in public. But I use models I've made myself in many of my images, and on occasion distributed them as free stuff. (Textures usually courtesy of nodes in the material room, though!)

If you want to see how detailed modeling can be, go to SciFi-Meshes.com and look in the 3D WIP area. Maybe I should stop going there, the models are unbeleivable! And these are just hobbyists!

In Poser, especially when it comes to animation, it seems to me that as far as performance issues go, it would perform better if the models were lower in resolution and detail could go into the textures. Many of us who sit and wait for one still image to render can sometimes be painfully aware of how long it takes. A model with 80,000 polygons, wearing clothing that totals another 80,000 polygons, and wearing a dynamic hair wig made of 50,000 strands of hair will not fly when you are trying to render 30 frames for each second of animation. The solution is to use models with a lower number of polygons, and to put some of the detail in low-to-medium resolution textures (considering most animation is destined for resolutions that are much lower resolution than for print). It is a delicate balance between the two.

Deecey, As an animator, that's on reason why I use EJ and not V. 36% to 41% gain in render speed. And I have high hopes for Jessi/James HiRes/LoRes. ::::: Opera :::::

Thanks gps, that is what I was looking for. The advantage of the low rez V3/M3. They still look great in P5 with P5's smoothing. dlfurman. There are ways to do all that. The morphs for the feet would be no problem. Transfer the morphs with Morph Manager. You could even save time buy dialing the foot morph to a sock first. Wrinkles, nothing a displacment/bump map can't do. I agree it all takes time. Some like me have fun doing something like that. Others don't have the time or plain don't like doing it. Nothing wrong with that. It makes for a more intersting place to look in on. Kind of reminds me of my music. The more I know, the more I realize I don't know.

There have been a few mentions of SHADE possibly spawning a whole new crew of modellers. I don't want to be a wet blanket for those who've pre-ordered, and I don't know SHADE's capabilities either, but I suspect it's not going to pan out that way. I modelling was only about building the model, I'd agree. But (as dominique pointed out above), modelling's only one part of a long process. For me, modelling is by far the quickest and easiest part. An average pack takes me 2 - 3 weeks to model, then another 2 months to finish off. After the modelling, there's the mapping, rigging, cr2 editing, joint params, texturing, making MATs and testing it all. Believe me, it's not for the faint-of-heart. And that's only for home use. If you want to sell anything, there's a whole other slew of things to do (the worst part, IMO). I think you have to want to make your own content. Most current modelling software has been made so easy to use that pretty much anyone could do it, if they took the time to learn. I hope SHADE will expand the market and give people more choice, but I'm not counting on it. mac

Definitely, maclean! My 'futeinokatana' product is a 'from-scratch' multi-figure for Poser. All the parts were modeled, then mapped, then textured, then rigged, exported/scaled/imported/saved, reloaded using a Phi file, cr2'd, jp'd. Morphs had to be exported and applied one at a time to each body part. All of the MATs and Poses had to be constructed and tested. Then I needed a readme.txt (documentation), promo images for each site where it was to be sold, correct licenses for each, and so on. This was six months work!

Dont be too sure. There will be some few to emerge. Old timers who get it with Shade and the newbie prodigy. Those who persevere....

A few, yes. A lot, no. Simply because of what maclean said ... it is NOT for the faint of heart. The modeling IS the easiest part of the whole process, especially when compared to getting things to work in Poser. And the packaging up is a long, tedious process - usually the least favorite part, too. But some of us like punishment. ;-)

This has turned out to be a great discussion. I am about to post a 'related' sidebar....don't let that stop the dialog. Anyone reading this who is crazy for modeling....I have a paying commission I wish to let out....a grand piano of certain specifications. Big, black, shiny, with morphing keys (I already have the morphing keyboard from a freebie by Ockham.) Anyone interested? ::::: Opera ::::: IM me or email me.

and another aside....is there anywhere that there's a modeling challenge, much like they do here for images ??? although in my case, just modeling anything is a challenge. I bought Shade LE wehn it first came out be CL in english, noe just bought Shade 7 Standard upgrade ... used Ray Dream DEsigner, then Studio, plus Carrara 1.1 before giving up on modeling...but something keeps drawing me into those programs. I really want to do modeling.

Dave-So, To get back to your original point... there are indeed far too many look-alikes in the Marketplaces, and not enough variation? Why? Merchants won't risk something untried. Merchants will make things which they know have sold before: sex and fake bondage packages for V3 & M3. I'm more tired than I can say of little-girlish faces with pouty lips where all the lipstick has been rubbed off the middle. I'm equally tired of tight leather strap garments which can only be worn in the privacy of a bedroom. I don't even bother to download the free ones anymore... and certainly won't pay for one! For the men, I'm bored with shadow or unshaven mange. Either a nice full hairy beard (and some of the historic variants would be refreshing!), or a clean shave... not this "I used a broken scallop shell 3 days ago" schtick. From a distance, it just looks dirty. Even villains have access to razors. One of my gripes about Aragorn in the movies was the ratty chin stubble... anyone with a drop of elf blood IS beardless, according to Tolkien. The other reason we have too many look-alikes is that most of these merchants are using resource kits. They hate to paint seams so they just paint a spot of eye color and copy a tattoo they found on the 'net and try to sell it as a new character. The ones doing the photo-realistic skins use the same set from 3dsk as 3 dozen of their competitors. This is why the handful who take their own photographs are in demand... and only as long as each texture is different. I might buy something once, but won't buy it 3 times and will feel ripped-off if that happens. A ripped-off customer is a non-returning customer. If it has highlights in the skin or the eyes I'll almost certainly not buy it because I'll have to take it into PhotoShop and repaint it. I put the lights in a scene where I want them, and not where the texture says they have to go... and what if the eyes have the light from one side and the skin from the other? Fake! Painted plastic doll eyes. And if the hair and clothing has highlights, too, it can be a real mess! As for clothes? Most of the so-called ethnic ones available are laughable... from the movies or TV... and entire cultures aren't treated at all. When is the last time you saw something suitable for a Mongolian/Korean/Tibetan (etc.) court? Something a real Viking would wear? A toga? Something an Incan or Mayan could walk up the temple steps in? Some of what is advertized are merely textures for outfits with the absolutely wrong silhouette such as the people who tried to pass off the MFD as a kimono or a cropped-off t-shirt and miniskirt with a silver reflection map as battle armor or whoever threw celtic knotwork on some tunic and tried to pass it off as viking women's garb. Don't insult me by assuming that I don't know that a cuirass should cover the vitals or can't recognize where a pattern comes from! Half of the images I have "in holding" are because I don't have the clothing items needed. This isn't necessarily historic or exotic or fantasy garb... but clothing suitable for various professions or activities. Have you seen an artist's smock? A gardener's apron? Something a billionaire CEO business woman could wear in the office? Mechanic's coverall? All those fancy cars and wierd machines and not a single mechanic? I'm tempted by PhilC's clothing creator. I'm also eager to see what Shade can do. As for hair, a lot of it looks alike, too (side messy-part, shoulder-length, bangs)... and there are entire categories which are untouched. Braided beards? Butt-length or knee-length or floor-length locks (either straight or curly)? An accurate Egyptian hair wig? A page boy? A helmet cut? (grown-up version of the page-boy and suitable for kings & courtiers). So there is lots of messy hair and bedroom hair... but not everybody goes around in public with an uncombed doormat on their heads! Besides people lacking clothing and accessories, there are also animals. Finally, after YEARS of begging, we have a horse skeleton... but what about the dog, cat, and cow/ox skeletons we've also asked for? At least a half dozen canines, but no skeleton. I must have 20 dragons in my folders... but not a single badger. No ermines, minks, martins... and only a pathetic rubber rat. :( Thanks to bloodsong, we have a selection of hawks and falcons... but someone needs to model and texture a complete owl package. If I had money to wager, I'd bet that we'll see 3 more horse models before we see a badger or a weasel or a groundhog. It is odd, but the Poser world reminds me more of medieval literature than art. The old literature was full of knights pricking across plains and queens waiting to be rescued, but no mention of the person making the armor or feeding the horse or cooking the feast. If you weren't royal, you didn't exist. The art, OTOH, was crammed with gardeners, sheepshearers, men holding the hounds, women gathering flowers, musicians and acrobats and people just pausing from their labors to watch the procession... and most of them had clothes on! Carolly the Opinionated

Dear Opinionated,

I tracked down your rant nodding the entire way. Thanks for unleashing your intensity.

Even though I agree that P6, with or without Wings/Shade as more-or-less a modeling plugin, will NOT end the current game of "fake bondage packages for V3 & M3" and "little-girlish faces with pouty lips", hopefully it will move it off center enough so serious people coming into the Poser world will understand that it is a sideshow and not (as it is now) center stage (I know I said this above). Perhaps, then, gradually, many of the items on your list will begin to appear.

Carolly, I have another possible ray of sunshine. If the morph package for J&J is excellent (or a vendor ala 3Dream creates a great one for low cost) then we may see the birth of a mini-movement of freebie/low cost distinctive 'characters' for J&J that are simply reshapes, without texture change. This might be accompanied by tutorials and exhortations for new people to learn to do this for themselves. Then, there might emerge more ambition for people to learn texture manipulation. I am describing a "path" for intermediate Poser competency that has nothing to do with buying one's way in and pressing the Make Art button.

Anyway, much as I agree with everything you said, there is also another reality for those of us who are serious about deeper tools: the 'pouty game' drives sales of Poser. That revenue might be just enough to provide CL the space to continue infusing better and better tools. CL is NOT resting on its laurels, but rather making serious strides for betterment.

About Aragorn, I concur. Besides the impossibility of the stubble you astutely pointed out, there were other elements of his characterization that irritated me. I simply did not feel enough of the nobility of one born of the blood of both Eldar and Edain and raised by Elrond. He was more like a prosaic Hamlet. Some of this had to have come from the actor himself, some from Jackson of course. But rolled into this -- and I submit rolled into the current discussion about Poser characters deeper than the trite -- is the problem that Western Culture has eschewed The King. Kingship is not embraced; it makes the mundane citizen of our 'west' uncomfortable. I think you know that I speak of a certain interior kingship, one Professor Tolkien possessed, but which is dormant in the culture today.

::::: Opera :::::

Oh Opinionated one :) I had to chuckle about the comment about the painted eyes. Juse use eyes from another package. I wont tell. Heck, I do it all the time! Here's a thought. Think of all the characters you ALREADY have if you factor in morphs never used and the ability to mix-and-match stuff from the packages you own. You may never buy again.... Another thought about why you never see the Support Staff is despite the many years we've been at this stuff, it's still new. If you had Poser 3 did you really master that program before version 4 came along? I'm not even going to ask about version 5. Perhaps the 1) lack of research and 2) the lack of ability to MODEL ACCURATELY (and all the other stuff that goes along with creating a marketable item including time) is why we don't have the items you mentioned. 3) We sell what we see sells. We all know what sells right??

i truly don't see many of the current group of poser users doing much with Shade. I have just seen too many of those discussions justifying the use of all premade/out of the box Poser stuff as "tools". To me, it apprears that the majority of Poser users don't want to go to the trouble to learn modelling. So many don't even realize that almost all the Vicki's in the gallery look alike. I think Shade is a good idea, but, I doubt that many will even bother to try and learn it. My 2cents, at any rate.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=905502

I agree with Carolly the opinionated one...in fact, I usually do :) When I first got into graphics, it was from a non-art background...but I always had this desire to put down somewhere what was going through my head...be it in writing, which I didn't like to do, or on canvas, which I never was able to do. Then all the great programs like Vista Pro, Bryce, , and Poser came along. RDD, RDS, etc... through it all, I seemed to collapse towards Poser, but it always leaves me feeling a bit not quite complete, too cookie cutter, it leaves my gut with a hollow feeling. I have seen the fact that 2/3 or more of Poser work looks pretty much the same, thus my initial post..way up above :) I usually try to do things differently, but then discover that I can't find those unusual items, such as a set of coveralls, to use in my work. I just bought Dulari and October Rust by samildanach_, which is indeed unique, and brought about the resulting linked image...I will say the thought has not been executed as well as I wanted...will try some more....but patience isn't one of my virtues, nor is attention to detail, which leaves me the loose ends now and again. But more work in line with these mentioned would be much appreciated...and I really don't need any of those textures that have the multitudes of "tribal" paint jobs or tattoos plastered all over the body to create a "unique" texture. I always hear the excuse about selling what sells, but I wonder if someone had the bravery of doing something different and putting it up for sale, if all of a sudden folks would stream in for the different product. Take a look at As Shanim, for instance...a unique look, but still a bit as always...different enough to make you look at it....I'm not sure of the sales success, but I bet its pretty high. RDNA continues to churn out things that are different. They do very well.

the variety and plethora of ordinary things is at Turbo Squid, but optimized for Max and higher priced. ::::: Opera :::::

i quit going to TS when they had that $400 baseball. the stitching was done by hand, though :)