Take, for instance, the last two products I bought: 'Eden' by Rhiannon and 'Jose' by Shahara. They look SO GOOD in the promo shots (on the left), yet this is how they render up on my machine (on the right). I know it's a lighting problem, but the vendors both supplied no light sets. I've tried my best to make them look like the promo shots, to no avail. When I increase the lights for Jose, his detail starts washing out (no more furry butt!) and for Eden, no matter what I do, her stomach and shoulders stay green. I've emailed and instant messaged the vendors, and have gotten no response. I've even purchased the Radiance Pro light system that Rhiannon said in her ad that she used, and none of the lights in that set make Eden look that way.

I hate wasting money. I love the promo shots, and if they would only supply items that rendered up JUST LIKE THE PROMO SHOTS, I would be happy! I think that if you can't recreate the promo shot, Renderosity should not allow the vendor to sell it. Does anyone have any idea what I can do... besides ask Renderosity for a refund? I've got a few 'this is what you want, this is what you get' disappointments I've purchased from them recently. :-(

My peeve is when people sell stuff here for Poser but use Max to render the promo shots... even if they do identify the images as such it is important I think include a Poser render on "page 2". I have been very disapointed particularly with scenes that no matter what can't come remotely close to the promo render quality and I don't think this is my ineptness since other things I buy look as good or better than the promo once I get them. I have notice a distinct corralation in products of high cost and then low quality once it gets to Runtime :( Anyway, I make sure not to render my stuff up to nicely for promo so that newbies can get results just like the promo. I have just bitten the ill aforded loss to date except one thing that was sold in the Renderosity shop and turned out not to be compatible with any version of Poser although this was indicated in none of the accompaning text. I did get a refund but I felt guity asking for it all the same. I once got an email from a total newbie about one of my things but he seemed quite satisfied with the assistance I provided in a couple of emails. Your vendor might have changed e-mails... have you checked when they last signed on to the site? Was your email marked as recieved... some people can be away on vacation or work for a couple of weeks as well.

Yeah, I was notified that they received the messages yesterday. Maybe my problem is expecting a response that quickly.

In the promo shots, from the back, the lady and the guy had similar coloring, and they were both very cute, which is why I bought them! But if I can't render them that way in Poser, I can't use them.. I've got better sitting on my hard drive, ya know?

Can you post a screen shot of your lighting?

Awwwww come on, cut the vendors some slack. Of course they are going to produce a promo image that says 'this is what you CAN do with my product' The rest is up to you and your skill (in this case) with lighting. Jack

I agree. While it's nice to be able to purchase so many cool things that are ready right out of the box, it's also a good idea to use them as examples. You can learn a LOT about lighting by tearing light sets apart and looking at the settings they used. Or moving a light to see what it does, or changing the start and end angles or the brightness. Or even changing the colors. It's a very hard thing to anticipate what people would like. And because the assumption is that the majority of users really don't want to reproduce a render exactly, that you show what can be done with the texture itself. Lighting is a major factor in the end result of a render ... however, if you change a pose, or change a camera angle, the lighting will have to be changed anyway. So if we take a look at the lighting you have set up, we might be able to offer suggestions. And the first suggestion would be to use lights that are all white or a shade of gray. That rules out color influence from the light set.

I make a lot of purchases - about a third of them are 'duds' (from all the stores). I've learned to sit back and wait a while before I jump. I've only had one chargeback in 7 years, and to be honest, I grew to love that vendors products. I'd be bounced out of here if I asked for a refund on all the losers i've bought. I also use the harshest light set up (3 lights, black, grey, and white) and if the product can pass that test it's a winner.

Well, I understand where you're coming from, but you gotta understand where I am coming from. I'm not an artist... that's why I buy other people's stuff! :-D I still have a need for Poser renders, as I use them in the online role playing game I'm making.

As a non-artistic customer, cut ME some slack! I'm not going to run out and re-sell your fancy light set on the marketplace, sheesh. :-D Give me exactly what I see in the store, and I'm as happy as a clam. I have to mess with artistic stuff quite a bit, even though I'm a programmer... but getting to the promo shot is beyond my skill. Tell you what - don't ask ME to set up realistic lighting, and I won't ask YOU to program A* pathfinding in my sprite engine... deal?

LOL I was trying to help, not to give you a hard time. It's so hard sometimes to respond to posts because folks can't hear the tone of your voice. I guess what I'm saying is, for you to be able to reproduce exactly what you see in the promo pics, you'd need the same light set, the same pose, and the same camera angle. If any of those factors is different in your render, you would also have to change the lighting. That's why it would make more sense for you to experiment with some other light sets, or to learn more about lighting. There are LOTS of great free light sets at RuntimeDNA. They are indispensable, and you will more than likely come across some that will be complimentary to your textures. Start with the studio lights, those are really nice.

Maybe learning how to use lights for a change? just a suggestion :o)

Also...when reading the advertisement...look to see if it's using one the now popular skin shader packages..that makes a huge difference as well. I just came across - at 1st sight a very nice skin texture, however it said the face was rendered in Cinema...so I have chosen to pass. I don't do nudes, so the body, I could almost careless about. The face is everything to me.

It's true - lighting is the most overlooked feature in Poser. It's also the hardest to learn really well. Deecey is quite correct - go to rdna and get the free light packages. Take your Jose model and render him in each lighting pack. I know it will chew up an afternoon, but it's worth it to see all the new possibilities.

My apologies, I meant to say portrait lights. Studio lights are also nice, but the portrait lights might be better for what you are trying to do.

Don't forget your render settings. Poser 5's default draft settings are optimized for speed and not detail. To get more details out of your render verify that you have a shading rate of max 0.5 and set the max texture size to 4096.

Thanks for the light tips and links guys! MAN I had no idea Traveller put out so many lights at RDNA! I'm downloading them now. I saw that P5 had a draft mode, and I wasn't using it when attempting to emulate the promo pic. I'll look at the shading rate and max texture size, and try out the portrait lights too. Thanks again!

Under US FTC LAW one must have an actual sample of the product being sold in any print or other media advertisement. what this means is , the nice perfect stack of round identical pancakes on the box of instant pancake mix, MUST be actual pancakes made with this instant powdered mix. but it does not prohibit advertisers hiring expert food artists to cook hundred of pancakes to acheive those perfect round stacks on the packaging and pro photographers to shoot them for the ads. as a merchant here it is my duty to show my product in its theoretical maximum effectiveness. We assume we are selling/marketing to mature adults who presumably are able to make responsible purchase decision being aware of the nature of "best light" 'advertising to even imply that shahara is engaging in false advertising is frankly absurd and to suggest that she should give way free add on light sets to compensate for people who .for whatever reason, refuse to learn how to use posers tools, is equally absurd ;-/. I will sell you instant pancake mix but I wont cook your breakfast for you...sorry

but still leaves people using 3ds or bryce or other render engines to get the looks, then selling the product for use in poser, where you wouldnt get the same thing you bought, the advertising should say for V3 in bryce or poser or whatever the render was made in essence, you are changing the "recipe" of the product, then selling and advertising it every render engine is different, and gets effects that cant be done in any of the others pictures i make even use a couple different render engines for one pic, just to get the effects

Oh boy, I just love people who criticize customers. Maybe the merchant can tell the customers what lights were used to get these results? Personally, I wonder about textures that give the bodies highlights before the lights are even applied.

This has a simple solution for all partys. On the product samples state what lighting is used. Plus I think it's good manners to credit other merchants stuff as well. I do this for 90% my products - occasaionlly I forget but hey i'm only human.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Oh boy, I just love people who criticize customers" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- It' s not a matter of criticizing the customer. when I hear: "i am not an artist cut me some slack" that implies Do all of the work for me so i dont have to do anything at all to get my desired results, that sentiment taken to its logical conclusion begs the question : why use poser at all? why not just go over to Gettyone and order a CD of stock illustration from their vast library.?? As far as people using high-end render solutions for poser product promos I agree that the disclosure should be made( rendered in lightwave etc). But there are people who actually provide light sets and environmental refection maps that are used in their promos.a great example of this is Sanctum arts "RDL7" package at DAZ. but look at the poser gallery renders of RDL7 and you see alot of horribly washed out renders with no shadows and figures that appear to be floating off the ground. so giving them the same light sets you used does not matter much if the buyer Does not want to bother learning to use the built in tools of poser to acheive his /her artistic goals.

Why can't at least one promo shot be rendered in default poser lighting? I agree, I have gotten some real duds only to go back and find out they were not rendered in poser. I think it's not too much to ask, if you are proud of your product and sell it to show us what it looks like under default lighting, and then use the other two promo pics to show what can be done. Marque

The answer to that is simple. Default poser lighting is crap and nothing is going to look good in it. However, a product render done with a single white light might give the purchaser a standardised idea of the product. Obviously this won't work with a cmplicated set or mutiple props, but for skin textures it might be an idea worth thinking about. Jack

I agree ... the default lighting in Poser does nothing to compliment any render. It is always very obvious when a render is done with default lighting. If every product was promoted with it, nothing would be sold. 8-)

poser default vomit lighting sucks :x perhaps renderosity can decide a "standard" lighting site where all products must use atleast 1 pic rendered with that lighting perhaps a white/grey mix, no colors that would show off best i think but using render engines like bryce/lightwave/etc is the bigger problem, its like a merchant is selling a filter or lense on a camera but he used a different high end camera to take a picture and say "look at the nice picture you can get with my lense!" while in reality, the lense had a small part in taking the pic, and the pic was more based on the camera and film it was using

I totally agree. Making promo page three image in something aproaching the Poser 4 default would be a nice courtesy. I promo for a different site showing both P4 and P5 renders clearly marked as such plus an artistic render where I do what ever I like. Personally I have a lot of respect for artist selling mesh who have the guts to include a wireframe in their promos. The issue isn't exactly what vendors SHOULD do but simply what prospective buyers would find a courtesy... a straight render or at least tips on getting something akin to the promo. If we permit "artistic" liscence in ALL a product's promos why draw the line at straight renders... I could make the standard P4 Nude Woman texture .tif look like a real skin just using P5 procedurals much less post-work.... maybe I could sell a beige square as a high resolution texture (LOL). Just pulling your chain ;)

"The answer to that is simple. Default poser lighting is crap and nothing is going to look good in it" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you!! and I see no reason for merchants to waste our limited store space posting Crappy unflattering rendersof our products to show how bad lighting can ruin a good composition . there are plenty of such renders in the galleries already

----------------------------------------------- "poser default vomit lighting sucks :x perhaps renderosity can decide a "standard" lighting site where all products must use atleast 1 pic rendered with that lighting" ------------------------------------------------ Pardon me but no F*cking WAY !! will merchants allow this kind of Draconian collectivist,Oligarchial, lowest common denominator standard imposed on how WE display the products that $$$Fund$$$ this operation. this is the ANTITHESIS of the free market citizen, that would send rosity's most talented merchants fleeing for other markets.

Sorry, if I don't see a poser render it makes me wonder what they are hiding. A good product will stand up to the scrutiny of default lighting, and you still have two other shots to show what it CAN look like under different lights or if rendered in a different program. In fact from here on out I will not be buying unless I see that it has benn rendered in Poser with no special lighting packages. Marque

Think I will go clean out my wishlist now. Marque

comments.....

Merchants should be allowed to depict their products in the best possible light -- so to speak.

As for those of us that lack the skills to reproduce fine renders.......that's the breaks.

There are simply too many variables which affect a render for merchants to be able to guarantee consistent results every single time -- by every person that might attempt to use the product. Unlike Pong, Poser isn't a "plug 'n play" type of application. Poser requires a certain skill level in order to work the program properly.

Some people might have a hard time with Pong, too.

Microsoft Word doesn't guarantee that you'll be able to turn out brilliant pieces of writing. An additional effort is needed to achieve that.....an effort beyond using the default Microsoft Word templates.

As a merchant myself, I have to jump in here and echo wolf's sentiments. The standard Poser 4 render engine would have been state of the art 15 years ago, but now it just looks dated. On top of that, some people would prefer us to render promotional images with that awful default lighting? No way. You have got to be kidding. Do you walk into a supermarket looking for rotten fruit or stale bread, because it CAN look like that? Of course not. You want the nice juicy apple and the freshly baked loaf. When I produce a Poser product I use Poser to render the promos, as much as I dislike the renderer, because I know customers will render it in Poser. I refuse however, to be told that I must use that terrible, terrible default lighting scheme. There are enough really bad renders out there without us having to add more on purpose. Most of us want to present our products in the best light, not the worst imagineable. People who buy products and expect to have their hands held so that they don't have to do anything at all themselves are missing the point entirely. You also have to take some time to learn how to use the software. Putting your products in the best light is not deception.

I am also a merchant and unless I am including a small light set with my textures, I always render my promos in the Poser Pro default lighting. Unflattering, maybe, but it shows the character texture in its default state, and shows the customer exactly what he is getting. Maybe thats why I don't sell a lot of them, lol.

damn I've gotta pay more attention to those nudity tags..waking up to a butt naked male aint pretty,lol & on topic..ditto JV..lighting matters ;)

bookmark

All remarks about "learning to use the lights" aside, look at the colors of the very first render. Under the same lights, one is red, the other is green- you can't have it both ways, one or the other figures (or maybe both) is expecting the use of colored lights to make the skin tones shown in the Merchant's pics. IMHO, textures should be designed to work with a white, or very close to white, main light. Otherwise your kidding youself, what are you going to do if a second figure in a scene requires tinted lights that go the other direction? I don't even use the Poser default lighting, I use a "whiter" version of it, and I'm sure all of my customers can do at least as well in there renders as I do in my promos- I'm a mesh guy, after all. ;-)

while lightning isnt a huge issue agreed that many need to learn lighting but using an outside render engine would be against marketplace rules -------------------------------- To assist customers with their purchasing decisions, these pictures are intended to be an accurate representation of the product without adjustments. -------------------------------- the product is made for use in poser as advertised on most of the items here using an outside render engine creates an image that is 100% imposible for a poser use to recreate, and therefor violates the rules of selling at renderosity lighting however is up to the seller creating a promo image in basic lighting is totally up to them, and at best can only be an "asked for" feature from buyers

I haven't run into any artists here or at other sites that I'd accuse of using deception in advertising. I do NOT advocate using default Poser lighting. However, it would be nice for the merchants to mention which lights they use, and it would be nice to render images in Poser. Notice many merchants state that no postwork was used. This is a great attempt to let us know the images were not altered. Use the same approach to lighting. (ie used RDNA's light set, DAZ's light set, etc.) There is no need for arugment here. If a merchant listens to his/her customers on issues like this, the customer will reward the merchant with further business. If the merchant gives a negative attitude, the merchant will most likely suffer from lost business. We make our choices.

" ----------------------------------------------- "poser default vomit lighting sucks :x perhaps renderosity can decide a "standard" lighting site where all products must use atleast 1 pic rendered with that lighting" ------------------------------------------------" would'nt work with the enviroments I work on.. which btw do ship with lightsets that match the renders we promo.

You know, you're very close to asking the merchants to make your images while they're at it...

Unflattering, maybe, but it shows the character texture in its default state, and shows the customer exactly what he is getting.

Not really.

Only if renders were done in white or gray lights would the customer see exactly what they are getting. The default lights have one white, one green, and one orangy/brown light, which throw the actual colors of any texture WAY off. Only with white or gray lights will you see the colors exactly as the artist intended.

Message edited on: 03/16/2005 19:38

Yeah, I can see why you'd buy this model. He's a handsome feller! ;-)

Oh FINALLY, a use for those 'too bright' lights I bought from DAZ! A model that's too dark. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

I never really recognized it before I saw your render, but this guy looks a lot like Jude Law. I didn't notice that in the promo shot.

Merchants. I've purchased 500 items from here spent over 7G. What prompts me to BUY... 99% is how well your product looks in the previews - the 1% is if it fits a need.

I want to see how well your product will look. Who else but the designer should be able to exploit every detail of the product - show it in its best rendering?

Im sorry BUT if I see a poor render one that does NOT SHOW OFF THE WORK. My tendency is to think the quality of work is inferior.

Please continue to present you products in the best possible light (no pun). Wow me, impress me and continue to take my money. And I will continue happily purchasing and attempting to get that same wonderfully impressive result you have.

Look to see if I come up in your store. If not hummmmm!
.

For comparison default P5 lighting. (see my render above)

I might of even purchased this one with this render - but I DID purchase it with the render on the product preview page

Besides - when was the last time a TV dinner actually looked like the photo..

Message edited on: 03/16/2005 20:18

My default lights are white, orange and yellow, in poser 4 pro pack and also in poser 5. Marque

Just how often do merchants render any of their promo images in other programs than Poser? Even once is unacceptable. I would like to see one in Poser 4 or Pro Pack-- same renderer. And one in P5 Firefly. I supose once 6 comes out, more will eventually be added. Nothing in Max, C4D, or even Daz Studio. Not even a gallery shot. If it's sold for Poser, it should be rendered only in Poser. I'm dissappointed by merchants regularly now including postworked promos on page 3. That space could be used for a side view, something which is often overlooked and can show a nose that disappears at a 90 degree angle. Links to postworked renders is fine, but nothing in the actual ad should be in anything but the host program and unworked. Even hair, I don't mind probs with hair, I can overlook it. I'm fine with white lights used in promos, I can spot Poser default lights a mile away and they are sickening. But, again it would be nice to know what lights are used, global? All white? a special package? If the latter, one all simple white light render should be included--preferably in a skin texture, the full frontal shot. I don't think that's taking away anybody's freedom and if you can't make your product look good under those conditions-- well, that says a lot too, doesn't it? Emily

Marque ... it might be the yellow one that I'm calling "green" ... I guess you could consider it dark yellow.

Jeepers Christmas, folks. Ever watch a car commercial? The sexy new model of the year shows the car racing at 70+ MPH around a scenic landscape with a tiny disclaimer indicating "Professional Driver on closed course" The ads for trucks show them pulling other trucks or Two-Ton loads of cinderblocks up muddy hills... The ads for minivans show them dodging a veritable diasater course of rainstorms, potholes, stray animals, and sudden stops in traffic while two angelic children seep blissfully in the back seat, buffeted by the gentle gyrations of Anti-lock braking and superior steering technologies. Anyone want to guess how much CG is invested in a car commercial these days? You want hard stats? Read the reviews in Consumer Reports. That said, FWIW, A quick disclaimer or tag indicating the render engine used doesn't seem an unreasonable requirement.

Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=31293

If you will go to my store (link above) and view Eden's promos, you will clearly see that Eden has olive undertones in her skin, and these tones are going to appear more predominant in certain lights. Perhaps I am being too presumptuous, but I'm fairly certain that this tone is evident in the promotional images on her page. I'm not sure about other merchants, but when rendering the promo images for my products, even though I may use a particular set of lights, I am forever adjusting them slightly, depending upon the pose, the background color, etc. Honestly, I don't feel that any promotional images for any of my products are misleading, and have never had anyone suggest so, but if a customer is not happy with one of my products or feels my advertising is somehow misleading, then I am more than willing to offer a refund.

Maybe we are forgetting that we don't all use the same graphics card, or display resolution. What I render on my computer probably looks totally different on someone else's, even using the default Poser lights. And monitors differ ... so unless you have the exact same equipment as the person you made your purchase from, AND the same graphics card, AND the same display resolution, etc.... your render cannot possibly look exactly the same.

Well, heck I might as well jump in here too right?

First of all, when I purchase a product here (and I've purchased plenty) I do pay attention to what the merchant renders it in. I've been around the block long enough to know that if it's rendered in anything other then Poser, when I go to use it in Poser it's not going to look like the promo ads....I don't use Poser 5, so when I see that something is rendered in Poser 5 I don't even take the time to look at it, because it has little to do with my current artistic situation. What I do look for is those little numbers either on the ad or in the readme...the resolution, the size of the textures. I look at the closeup renders of the neck area and see how blurry it looks (for skin texturers that's a dead giveaway to the quality of the product)I'm a beta tester, I can tell you where to look for judgement of quality and the front face shot is not it. That without a doubt will be THE BEST part of the texture usually. The rest is what you have to worry about.

Anyway, I would like to see white lights used by merchants, that is what I use on my products. Artistic renders are nice, but I would rather see a list of them in the ad so I can see what the souped up model of their product can do while I can see the bare bones in the ad.

I don't have Jose for M3 yet, but it's been sitting in my cart ever since it came out. It looks really, really good and I like the morphs too :)

As far as Rhiannon's stuff goes, I buy everything of her's I can get my hands on because I know without a doubt it will be a winner :) And that's without even knowing what lights she uses. She has grown by leaps and bounds and is getting even better :)

Anyway.....

Kimilche, I truly understand your frustration, but the plain fact is with Poser you will not be satisfied with anything rendered right out of Poser until you come to grips with the lighting system. It's hard I know but there are so many good lights out there.

We as consumers need to remember to read everything on the product ad pages even the fine print.

And we as merchants need to remember to make sure our customers know what they are looking at before they buy.

I totally agree however, if it's made for Poser, that is what it should be rendered in. Leave the other renders for eye candy for us to look at to see what the product can really do :)

Deb

Okay guys, it's real simple here: If you're going to sell something for a specific tool, make sure it looks decent in the tool you're selling it for. Anything else is misleading advertising, period. (Hiya Kolschey! Don't take this personal, but...) Poser merchants aren't Ford, they're not GM, and they're not Daimler-Chrysler - they don't have the same leeway that makers of high-priced durable goods have. Also, even on their most outrageous-claimed commercials, you'll see a shedload of disclaimers somewhere in there stating that the product they're showing off includes special-order or premium packages that are available (at a higher price) to the potential customer. I somehow fail to see the same disclaimers in a lot of the high-end CG-rendered promo images here. You'll also notice that the nanosecond any of those big boys get caught advertising a feature that their product isn't capable of will usually be met with strong and loud criticism from nearly every watchdog organization on the planet, as well as a tidy but unrelenting reports of same on the evening news. (...and Lord help you if you get caught putting out a misleading ad in the UK...) Jim Burton made a ton of sense up there... I strongly suggest that anyone who claims to be a merchant take the time to soak his words in. If poser merchants don't have the skills to make something look presentable under a decent set of available Poser lights and Firefly, then perhaps they shouldn't be selling anything for Poser? Either a merchant is a professional, or a merchant is not. Those wanting to reach Jim's level of longevity, stature, and sales record would do well to heed his advice. --- There are some other concerns which I think I may be able to address: "Maybe we are forgetting that we don't all use the same graphics card, or display resolution. What I render on my computer probably looks totally different on someone else's, even using the default Poser lights." True, but a promo image will, if honestly presented and rendered under a communally-accessible light set, look the same on my monitors at home via website before I buy the thing as they should on those same monitors via completed render while I'm using the product. OpenGL will certainly alter that a bit, but not by a noticeable difference... and not enough to justify using a $4500 program to help fudge the promo image. "Im sorry BUT if I see a poor render one that does NOT SHOW OFF THE WORK. My tendency is to think the quality of work is inferior" I agree - but if it requires something outside of Poser to make that happen, then maybe the merch should sell it to someone other than Poser users? "would'nt work with the enviroments I work on.. which btw do ship with lightsets that match the renders we promo." Makes perfect sense though... you're supplying customers with the means to match the promo render results, no? If nothing else, that's a damned good idea (and one that used to be implemented a lot)... provide the light set you used in the promo render. Can't be too hard to save and package a custom light set, can it? " when I hear: "i am not an artist cut me some slack" that implies Do all of the work for me so i dont have to do anything at all to get my desired results..." OMG! Dude - this is POSER! lmao (sorry - had to.) Seriously though, what exactly d'ya think the RMP demographic consists of? It's a huge number of folks who don't have the time, patience, or (let's be honest here, 'cause I'm one of 'em in this category - ) talent to pull off all this stuff by themselves - otherwise we'd all be over at CGTalk, bragging on our latest and greatest stuff, like, say, a '1325-man-hours-and-counting!' render of a homemade meshed, rigged, and textured cockroach crawling across a homemade meshed and textured tabletop laden with homemade meshed and textured dinner clutter. /P