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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2025 Jan 22 9:27 pm)
Subject: Considering Work on a DAZ Figure? See this first...
This sounds like on of those tangles that would need an expensive court case to settle. I expect that there is a body of precendent to define phrases such as "substantially similar", but how much could be applied to 3D models? It's certainly an ask-a-lawyer question, and that's not in my budget. How many content creators could pay the fee from their Poser revenue? How many will just, as you intend, play safe? I hope you've misunderstood, but can I afford to take the chance?
Well, the thing here is that legal counsel HAS been sought and they said it is best to do as DAZ says in this regard. As anyone who has talked to Les at some point would know: he is not the kind of guy to give in easily. If he thought he had a chance at fighting this - he would. Unfortunately, after talking with the legal-eagles, he doesn't see it as an option (as he mentions in his statement)
Message edited on: 03/18/2005 01:47
What I didn't get from the statement was which feature finally tipped the balance - texture compatibility, clothing compatibility or something else? Was it a combination of factors which finally made Lilin too 'V3-like'?
The reason I ask is that there are a number of Unimesh texture-compatible items in freestuff (one or two in the marketplace as well). I'd imagine the MP vendors have been very careful about obtaining consent for their items, but what's the score on the freebies?
I already knew this, you cannot create anything that is from DAZ or any part of it. Says so even in readme files. The freebies can't use anything that is associated with DAZ products either, from what I know. Haven't you ever seen DAZ's copyright spattered on all their figures & textures??
Message edited on: 03/18/2005 02:35
Birddie, in obvious cases, like actual Mesh pieces and textures, absolutely. But joint-parameters and UVs? Come on. CL has already stated that dial settings within Poser cannot claim copyright (not trying to derail this just a case in point). The JPs are meaningless outside of Poser, so are they not akin to dial settings? Ok, D/S can use them but then there's a case of the kettle calling the coffee pot black, isn't it?
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I didn't understand a word of that post in that link, until I got to the very bottom and read: "Just to reiterate, the model itself poses no violation as it is 100% original. It was an error on our part to build it with UV's, joint parameters and "fit" morphs to allow it to accept V3 textures and clothing without first contacting Daz for thier permission."
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
Maybe they should start putting a Daz3d brand on the rump of every V3 texture. ahhh, but they do! Just becase you don't see it on your finished renders that doesn;t mean it's not there! But joint-parameters and UVs? Come on. Aren't the UVs stamped as well? Not sure about the joints. Don't you have to strip all the joints and any references to a DAZ fig such as V3 if you were to make a clone of her? I thought that was the case, could be wrong, I'm not a modeler so, I wouldn't know.
Since the model is different it does not have the same UVS just has the same borders on it so that V3 UVS fits to it! How can DAZ copyright the UVS of a completely original model/mesh!!! Ok I accept the joint-parameters system but this one? And I believe Lilin has a V3 morph she is not modeled after V3... pitklad
Having given the matter some thought, it has suddenly occurred to me that it is not actually a copyright question. It is a contractual question. It is the contract (the EULA) that stipulates this -- and is therefore enforeceable under those terms (less wiggy than IP rules). And, as noted, it really is a matter of their choosing to enforce it accordingly. So long as your items do not directly compete with their items, it should be fine.
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)
The problem is that this would have to go to court in order to be settled once and for all. DAZ is banking (probably correctly too) on that not happening. You'd have to go and check way back in the dawn of time (Poser 1 or whatever version started including Zygote figures) as to what joint parameter/uv information was made available to Zygote by CL (this includes the info in the manual at the time). As DAZ is the spawn of Zygote I'm sure information filtered down to them from CL. The JP information available today was not developed by DAZ alone - they freely usurp developents/discoveries made by 3rd party modellers incorporate it into their products and imply that it now belongs to them and is integral to their products. Even injection technology was (if I recall correctly) not discovered by DAZ. A 3rd party modeller (and I forget who it was) posted a rather heated message in the forum stating he contacted DAZ with the idea, was turned down, and lo and behold there it appeared in their products and he got not even a thank you. (This was maybe 3 or more years ago). If they succeed at this (and likely they will because nobody wants the cost/irritation of a lawsuit) they effectively put a ceiling on the quality of product available. Because 3rd parties have repeatedly shown they can do better with DAZ droppings but they're not allowed to (piss on the customer). This effectively insures versions 4 through infinity of any product because DAZ will improve the model as much as DAZ wants to, saving more for the future versions (purchases), and 3rd parties won't be allowed to do anything. Anyone thinking DAZ does not want the entire Poser market needs to wake up. If they were achieving this with knock down quality I wouldn't care, but when they rein in 3rd parties with debatable tactics it stinks. And then they whine about not having made back the money from the Bryce purchase, prices over there go up, but they "found" themselves in a position to buy Poserpros. Were they all sitting around one morning and stumbled upon the cash? Gee, must have been a fun meeting.
Um... You use all the "joints" when you make clothing ;) On the one hand, the LE Cr2 is redistributable, right? There are joints in there. UVs? Are you talking about the templates being stamped? You can create new templates by using UVMapper. So they could say UVMapper is breaking their EULA. Yeah, that's what I'm wondering narcissus - completely different model 100% but winds up fitting into the same "space" that V3 fits into UV-wise. Sorry, I see this moreso as directly against a prominant group of folks releasing a free figure line than protection of rights being infringed on. Otherwise when you make clothing your relying on the goodwill of a company to allow you to release it because according to their EULA, it's derivative - already stated by Eternl_Knight.
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Note that, according the way things are written (noted elsewhere first), that the problem occurs when you use figure joints in a figure or clothing joints in clothing. Using figure joints to make clothing, or clothing joints to make figures is more or less allowed under the terms of EULA. The reverse is not. As far as "stamps" -- note that all the fles are text files. Parsing them isn't hard, so "stamps" are easily removed. I don't think any of that applies. Again, it really isn't an issue of copyright difficulties, but a contractual one. The EULA is enforceable in a court without even touching on IP issues -- and, indeed, they wouldn't matter in the case directly. In short, the elements aren't usable not because they are protected by copyright, but because DAZ says you cannot use them in such a way, and because you agree not to when you install the product.
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)
Which paragraph of the licence says you cannot make texture maps for the product? You are not copying any part of the original product in the creation of texture maps. Paragraph 6 forbid copying and Paragraph 5 forbids creating derivatives (except for renders and animations). Is it against the licence agreement to create any texture map that can be applied to a Poser figure, including DAZ's ? Keep in mind that Poser allows any, suitable or not, comaptible texture file to be applied to the Poser model. Just my 2c worth. Richard (who likes making textures)
This won't apply to texture work. Texturing is independent of the mesh and program settings. It might apply in some respects to pose files, morphs, MAT files, expressions, clothing, and anything else that requires either the core geometry or the CR2's basic structure to work. As for DinaV, it would depend on whether or not she was felt to be in violation of those terms to the extent that V3 is. DAZ did offer a means and a way for this figure not to be pulled. As a matter of business, Sixus chose to pull it. This wasn't DAZ stopping this. This was Sixus stopping it in order to avoid having a figure of theirs that required a figure from a competitor. As a derivative, that is well within the rights of DAZ under the terms of the contract. It does, however, make one wonder what the future of DAZ figure based products from Sixus1 in the future is. I liked the "open source figure license" thingy, lol. Since several folks have been talking about such a thing, it is interesting to see someone finally carrying through with it.
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)
Attached Link: http://poserpros.daz3d.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=24225&highlight=#24225
more interesting reading re: DAZ EULA...
There are two issues at question here. First is the copyright issue and the second the contractual "EULA" issue. Both need to be conosidered in light of these events. First, as far as copyrights go - DAZ reserves the right to stop any clothing content for their figures being distributed. First because one needs the JP's and secondly (though a more tenuous position) - one needs to base the clothing around the shape of said figure. So if you happen to make clothing that competes with one of their products - you're screwed. Same goes with textures as you NEED to use their figures to get these right (either by using a UV template or by painting directly on the mesh). The second issue, and this is alot scarier, is the EULA terms. There is a clause in there that stops anyone who has agreed to it (and that is anyone who has installed V3 which I'm guessing is 90% of the folks here) that you cannot create & distribute models that are "substantially similar" to any you have installed. This means that if you have installed V3, the Dragon, whatever and create something they classify as "substantially similar" - they are within their rights to get you to pull it from distribution (free or sold). Think about that, if one installs their new oriental dragon - one cannot really create another oriental ragon for distribution without DAZ knocking on your door (or at least reserving the right to if your model is more successful than theirs). Do I sound like I have an agenda? Well, yes I do. I don't want to see others fall into the legal quagmire created by DAZ as Sixus1 and others have (yes, there are others that have suffered from this problem!). And it doesn't matter what DAZ says "verbally" about all this either - what matters in court is what is written in that contract (the EULA). And that contract is not weighted in our favour... So while they can "say" they won't pursue us over textures, clothing, etc - it means jack-diddly until they put that text into the EULA we need to agree to before installing their products. And if you think that's asking too much - have a look at the Poser 5 EULA. It specifies exactly that - that one is entitled to use their "restricted content" (the figures, props, etc) for the purposes of making clothing, supporting textures, etc.
The whole description of this situation is too vague. First, it appears DAZ was the baddie by saying it violated the EULA. But Sixus said it was their decision to pull the product. Second, there should have been no doubt from the start. They should have asked DAZ about it from the start. Third, DAZ can't have a blanket policy denying such projects, since VinaD was able to wear Vicky 2's clothes and use her textures. Did DAZ agree to allow her, or did they reach an agreement with DAZ?
damn -- two and a half year old thread, lol. Now that's archive diggin... That said, I'm going to disagree with a couple of your points E_K. "First because one needs the JP's and secondly (though a more tenuous position) - one needs to base the clothing around the shape of said figure." One does not need the jp's. You can arrive at them independently seperate of the figure and on your own entirely within the constraints of the program. How do you think DAZ got them? Working without them is harder, yes, and slower, yes, and reduces the potential rapid fire profit one can make from them, but, well, eh. One generally does need to build clothing around the shape of said figure for greatest ease. Hmmm -- dynamic clothing in P5 and P6 sorta put that off a bit, though -- now you only need to rough it and then let the program do the work. Also, that section does not prevent you from making a figure, as you interpret it. It stops you from making a figure which is derivative of their figure using the mapping, program settings, mesh, or texturing of their figure. What you are expressing is that by installing v3, a modeller gives up the right to make human female figures with tiny heads. That's incorrect, as you have to take into account the whole meaning of the section and the parts of the whole EULA pertinent to that section as well. As for the Poser 5 Eula -- walk on eggshells there -- the one that was there before that one wasn't near as friendly.
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)
"Actually ynsaen - the textures are derivatives of the mesh as the UV's dictate the placement of textures. Without the mesh or the UV's in question to base the texture on - you are stabbing in the dark. As such, textures can be classified as derivative products." That's a reach -- and a long one in the wrong direction. It's based on not understanding the legal use of the word derivative as it applies in these cases. Seriously -- textures are not derivatives of meshes. Now, the UV Map itself, if one created and owned by DAZ is used, may be used to create a derivative work but that still doesn't make it a derivative of the mesh -- only of the image of the map.
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)
"oh!and don't forget Don&Judy take V2-M2 textures is this "illegal" too???" Most likely not. Odds are they arrived at the uvmapping independently, using a resource outside of the originals. The basis for this is that the mapping is not exact, and is slightly tweaked in different places.
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)
Someone should lookup and post the original Poser 5 Eula. It was a doozy. Is it me, or does it seem like simply asking ahead of time would have made a world of difference?
Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com
Yeah, the original Poser 5 eula was heavy-handed but it was changed so that doesn't really affect the here and now. My initial reaction to that first draft back then was WTF!? :) You wanna dig up some doozies, let's pull up the one with DAZ and 3rd party clothing -or- DAZ and body shapes ... and similar situations over the last few years.
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You know what I dont get? I don't understand the legality of restricting the use of a product. If I buy a mannequin from company A can company A forbid me from clothing that mannequin with cloths from company b? Can company A restrict me from making cloths myself for the mannequin? Can co A restrict me from selling cloths for the mannequin? I was always under the assumption that the only restriction to the use of the mannequin would have been that I could not buy plaster, make a mold of that mannequin, and reproduce it for sale. I foresee these copywrite issues going to court eventually and the copywrite holders loosing allot of their "muscle" when it comes to restrictions of use after purchase.
As stated before this isn't a Copyright issue at all, it's a CONTRACT issue. You sign, or Click-thru a contract, you are bound by it, no matter how lame it is. That being said Daz isn't all that likely to go around attacking merchants, if they get bit by bad customer response a few times. Daz is a company that seems to be VERY conscious of their image.
Yea but attacking every original mesh that can wear a characters clothes is kind of pushing it. I understand if he used V3 to make Lilin2 but not if he made an independent character that is similar to what they sell. C'mon. Restrictive is ok. Be restrictive to protect your interests. But don't be ridiculous.
Yeah... we have heard this one before. So many, many times, that it isn't surprising. Jim Burton with Lori was a good issue and commonly known, but there are other figures which have also been bound, gagged, and stifled merely because they were good enough to be competition. I have notes about several such cases, and will add Sixus1 to my list. Who suffers? We suffer. Lack of choice. Great... we get macaroni arms and slanted eyes and pinheads, and are brainwashed into believing that this is the epitome of female beauty... must be because all the marketplace stuff is for her. :sigh: This is a capitalistic country and DAZ is very good at playing the game of investing capital by buying out the products of others and removing all competition from the playing field. Our opinions as customers don't matter when rich men gather, whether it be the courthouses or halls of congress. The most successful and respected folks are the ones who know how to make money from the work of others. Another round of applause for DAZ. Me? I will not work on a product for DAZ, a product which supports a DAZ figure, or anything else where my sweat equity and skill go into their coffers. And, if I came up with a competing item I wouldn't show WIPs because otherwise they'd cut me off at the pass like they've done to some other folks I respect highly. If I dropped it into the market, I'd get at least a couple of weeks of sales before they cut in. I've downloaded M3 and V3, but not unzipped them. If their EULA could be read so as to be that expansive, the zips will go into the trash. I don't need them, even for free... I already have a headache. And if I did make product for sale, I'd be 100% certain that it wouldn't fit any of the DAZ figures. Carolly the Unamused
Hey does that mean that if I download and install DAZ studio that I cant have Poser installed also as it is a similar product?
Does it also mean that if CL downloads a copy of DAZ studio that they can't run Poser X or sell Poser X because it is a similar product?
Hey now that they installed it CL is bound by DAZ's contract.
Message edited on: 03/18/2005 10:56
Message edited on: 03/18/2005 11:08
Judy, Dina, Elle, Maya Doll, Laroo... Just look around and you'll find plenty of non-Daz figures. In fact I REALLY wish people would do more for Elle!! Jim Burton doesn't seem to have felt particularly shafted since he seems to still be working with Daz. Vicki & Michael don't have to have slanted eyes. Heads can be scaled. It's just most folks don't bother to turn dials too much so you get a lot of similarity. Also a lot of people seem to have similar ideas of what constitutes beauty. If it sells, of Course you will see many similar things in the Marketplace. If it gets Views & comments you will also see more of it in the Galleries. So what does it show? What the "numbers" desire. The "majority" is what keeps the Top 10s and the Hot-Selling marketplace items in the top 10 and selling hotly. I'd prefer lots of choices & variety but I'm also realistic... As long as it's all above-board and legal of course. Daz is after all a business. They will focus mainly on what sells and they will protect their business.
Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com
I think part of Elle's issue is that Neftis had family/medical issues right after her release, and polymage has become a ghosttown since then. I reallyhope she's ok, and we hear from her again, because she's very talented, sweet, and I know she worked on Elle for almost a year before her release.
Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.
That's terrible, I hope everything's improved for her!
Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com
Daz may rewrite their EULA in even more complex terms in an attempt to clarify this issue, but a simple rule of thumb is that a product is derivative if it has at least 5-10% shared content. In addition, if we buy a DAZ product, possession of that product can be used as circumstantial evidence, if we then try to sell any kind of similar product, so maybe that's what they're trying to say in a somewhat clumsy manner that's obviously causing alot of worry. Not exactly "anything you buy may be used as evidence against you in a court of law", but something like that.
Kinda makes you wonder if we'll see the Aeon products disappear? About Neftis: She had her own medical problems, and then if memory serves, her Mom had some problems, and she had to go back to Canada (from Australia I think) to assist her. I think we heard from her last about Sept. last year.
Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.
The Aeon line is Dodgers. If Daz had issues with him and the Aeons I'm SURE we would have heard of it. :D Dodger RTE encoded them so I'd guess all is well.
Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com
I just hope someone does hear from Neftis soon. Strange to think no one has heard anything recently. :/ IDK sometimes I think there's just so much sickness lately. :(
Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com
"Kinda makes you wonder if we'll see the Aeon products disappear?"
I had the same thought, but some months ago DAZ' copyright agent explained to me that DAZ had no issue with the AEON figues, as they require prior purchase of DAZ products. The rte-decoding tech seems to be an agreeable solution to DAZ. I think I know what you mean, though. The AEON figures are proportioned to be compatible with clothing props for Unimesh figurs; in that regard they're similar to Lilin2. Seems likely that the key difference is that Lilin2 shares proportions with a DAZ mesh but does not require prior purchase of that mesh. EDIT: Oops, kinda repeated what Caly said there. :-)
Message edited on: 03/18/2005 13:04
Right, the rtencoding was to prevent users circumventing purchasing the core figure, usually V3. Now apparently, they wanted Lillin to be encoded so that users aren't circumventing buying V3... but... V3 the base is free, isn't it? So if there is no original geometry used or any of that, why enforce encoding it?
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Attached Link: http://www.poserforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2625
I'm not a big player ini the poser market. Hell, I can hardly classify myself as a player at all! Still, there are some things that need to be known by ALL players, big or small, and I found out a big one today. See, DAZ (in their infinite wisdom) have a nice click-thru EULA that you have to agree to before installing V3, M3, etc. Well, I wonder how many of us have actually READ it? See, Sixus1 Media have come across one of the more sticky points in it and naturally enough DAZ have decided to play heavy. There is a line in the agreement that states that one cannot create a 3D model that is *substantially similar* to the one installed. This caught Sixus1 Media as they tried to release a V3 compatible figure known as Lilin2. Well, DAZ weighed in (in an *ever so nice* fashion) and now Lilin2 is no more (anyone remember Sara & the competition she posed for "the GIRL"?). Well, I decided to do a little investigation in the DAZ EULA after this... Lo & behold, it get's worse! See, one cannot distribute ANYTHING that uses part of the 3D model in question (be that joint parameters for us clothing developers, or the UV's for you texture artists) without prior agreement with DAZ. They may not have enforced this before, but then again - they may have and we simply don't know about it! What I find incredibly ironic is that DAZ refused to work with CL because of their EULA, when there's is draconian! I don't know what the old "problematic" EULA of Poser was, but the current Poser 5 (and I will assume Poser 6) version explicitly allows the use of the "restricted content" for use in creating clothes, textures, props, etc. There is no such provision in the DAZ EULA. So if you are interested in the statement by Sixus1 Media on the matter, go to the link above. If not, at least be aware that the DAZ EULA is a masterpiece of legal work. All the V3/M3/whatever compatible stuff out there is technically in breach of the license and as such DAZ can make you pull it whenever they want. Please note, I am not typically "anti-anything". I personally think that DAZ makes some great figures and supporting content. However, I will no longer spend time & effort creating supporting content for the DAZ figures when I have to rely on the goodwill of another company for it's continued distribution. This is not an emotional "I hate'em so they can burn in hell"; it is a business decision pure & simple.