'Just curious -- once you dump animals, humans and robots out of Poser, then what's left to pose?' I don't do any posing, xenophonz. I use poser to test the content I create, mainly houses and furniture. That's why I said I'm not a typical poser user. I use the occasional human to check scale, but that's about it. After 20 years as a fashion photographer.... well, I'm not gonna say I'm fed up looking at beautiful women, 'cause I'm not and never will be. But in poser, I find furniture more intersting than women. Of course, once I leave the house, it's a different story. LOL. mac

'For the money, Poser actually has a really decent materials editor and renderer' Yes, deecey. I have to agree. The material room is the best part of P5 for me. And at the price, it's almost unbeatable. I complain loudly about poser, but I'm not a CL-basher. I hope they continue for many years, and good luck to them. I just wish they would clear up some of the basic functions, is all. Almost every problem I have with poser is caused by stupid things in the interface - idiot dialogs, wrong focus, lack of undo, etc. But all in all, there's nothing like it for the money, and I'll say that equally loudly. Well.... there's daz studio, which I much prefer, but it doesn't have rigging functions (yet). Won't be long though. mac

OMG, Netherworks!!! That ERC fix is incredible! I've never heard of this being done for a bad JP fix. SCOOP!!! Would it possible to fix some of M3's posing problems with ERC? I would totally spend money to get M3 posing better. He has that same armpit problem, and his inner elbow is like rounded Playdoh instead of nice seam. :P bB

the person who can actually FIX V/M's problems in this area would make a fortune. Supposedly, a lot of minds have looked into it and the only way to fix the unimesh IN POSER would be to rig in a way to dial down the range of motion, and that has not been deemed a good trade-off. I have been sarcastic with DAZ over this in the past, but have given that up. I have come to believe it is not entirely (or even largely) their fault. "...his inner elbow is like rounded Playdoh..." that's a new one for the list. My choice of words is "bent drinking straw." ::::: Opera ::::

I don't do any posing, xenophonz. I use poser to test the content I create, mainly houses and furniture. That's why I said I'm not a typical poser user.

I agree -- you're not typical.

After 20 years as a fashion photographer.... well, I'm not gonna say I'm fed up looking at beautiful women, 'cause I'm not and never will be. But in poser, I find furniture more intersting than women.

Have you ever seen the movie Soylent Green? You know -- the one with Charlton Heston shouting at the end that "SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!!!!"

Well.....did you see the parts about 'female furniture'........?

One way of combining the two concepts.

ilr, can you put it in words? what, exactly, is your objection to the chest area? ::::: Opera :::::

With your permission here is my short conclusion about J&J: 1) comparing to M3/V3 J&J meshes are better. They look human. Enough polys, morphs are not bad. 2) it is absolutely necessary to regroup both figures. the idea to attach thighs directly to hip is obviously wrong. The longer (or the bigger if you like) are buttocks, the better are joint params. If you look for example at MayaDoll. She doesn't have that number of polys, but she is posing well. 3) chest area and collars - same problem. 4) I think I will improve JP for Jessy but I'll never be able to reach good result. Will let you know. thank you

Opera, arms work better on these figures than thighs. could you load f.e. Judy and set screen to box preview. you will be able to compare my post and the one on your screen. look at chest-collars-arms.

For those who prefer a barebones install, P6 has 3 options when installing , "Full" , "no Nudity aka US version" and "no P6 content". For anyone who can live without the thrill of a shop on the desktop, removing the "ContentRoom" tab can still be done by deleting 3 lines in the "posershell.xml".

ilr, I just saw your response, but cannot interact right now, headed to bed. I'll post a judy image tomorrow and you can help us understand more. It seems like everyone likes the jessi mesh, but maybe regrouping/re-rigging is on people's minds. "I think I will improve JP for Jessy but I'll never be able to reach good result." Are you saying this because the JP cannot be fixed if she is not regrouped? (I am not very knowlegable in this area.) ::::: Opera :::::

As for the buttocks in V3 those are already a extension of the thights,And the thighs are controling the buttocks, not a big difference then been one part...

Mayadoll is quite there but the thigh includes the knee too...

About the chest area I agree that eve,V2>models with divided chest is much more nutural...

As for Jessy I'm sure that as soon as Yamato gets P6 he will make the best joint system for her!Like he did with posette and AnAn!

pitklad

So these figures could be kick-@$$, if only they were regrouped/rejointed? Hmmm. It would mean none of the conforming clothing would fit any more, but there doesn't seem to be that much of that yet. Dynamic clothing will still fit just fine. Ideally, though, the figures would be rejointed ASAP, before there's a lot of clothing made for them.

if we have good figures, clothing will follow. they are NOT ideal. but meshes are good. with that number of polys you can morph almost everything out of them.

"the idea to attach thighs directly to hip is obviously wrong" just I gotta say.. how are your legs attached? ;) mine go "thigh - hip"...

mine are almost the same, but I'm happy to have buttocks :)))

I think the next major movement in grouping is going to have to be separate knees and elbows. shoulders and butts can often be hidden under clothing, but elbows tend to stick out at unfortunate angles. If you look at the "superposeable action figures", some of them have 2 hinging points at knees and elbows to allow for better posing. There actually IS a separate knee bone in us humans. ;) Carolly

You're right, I have seen action figures like that. Sounds like a good idea, actually. Has anyone ever tried that with Poser figures?

So until they're re-rigged anyone doing conforming clothes should wait? Hopefully someone out there is fixing these guys up... And making better textures. waiting game

Caly did you see the official letter from CL about this, more or less warning clothing people to hold off, a content SR is coming. ::: og :::

I don't often get into comments on poser rigging because I have a tendency to become frothy, but I'll give it another shot. THe concpet of using poser's "bones" in the same way you would use real bones is not accurate. It's easiest to think of them in those terms, but a slightly better way of looking at them would be to consider them as Motion Centers. THe system of rigging used inposer is not antiquated -- it is used regularly and often outside of poser, but it does not have the "mental model" of a weight system that allows you to think more in terms of muscles. THe benefit to the poser system is that, in the same format, it is smaller and lighter and easier to achieve a rapid result that is workable in. It is the "original" methodology, so to speak. There are a great many projects surrounding the blending of "poser" style riggin and "weight" style rigging -- each of them has a great many strengths, and each of them has a great many flaws. Ultimatley, they are more or less equal -- it becomes a matter of taste, skill, and familiarity. The riggings used in the figures in discussion are, ultimately, rather simple ones. There are some figures that have been designed that have several hundred bones -- which may be overkill. However, what is often overlooked in these discussions is the additional factors that are possible to apply within poser. Joint controlled morphs, effective JP set up, and careful grouping of an elastic enough mesh all give Poser the potential for motion and appearance that can exceed the capabilities of the other systems possible. However, there is not one commercially viable figure thus far that has truly approached a point of actually using the rigging system in poser and the features around it to their full extent. V3 is not the best rigged figure possible, and does not push the boundaries of what is possible. It's simply what everyone is used to, and it's easier to deal with. Especially for clothing makers -- tweaking 185 distinct joints and grouping that on a mesh is not somethign that would lead to tons of conforming clothing for a figure in a short period. To that end, making use of the dynamic cloth capabilities of Poser 5 and 6 becomes far more important when you begin to rig figures for more efficient posing and more realistic positinoning. Ok, that's enough. I'll wander off now and look at daisies...

Thanks for frothing! Just to sprinkle some cinnamon on top.... "...additional factors that are possible to apply within poser. Joint controlled morphs, effective JP set up, and careful grouping of an elastic enough mesh all give Poser the potential for motion and appearance that can exceed the capabilities of the other systems possible." ynsaen, (or anyone) have you had a chance to look at the two Jessi mesh cages? 110,000 and the low-res? If so, can you see enough to venture an opinion if the mesh falls into the 'elastic enough' category? Particularly, using the factors in your paragraph above, what are the prospects of getting a rigged, functioning model that does not suffer the unnatural shoulder girdle issues? A female model with natural looking shoulders and upper arm and inner elbow fold, for goodness sake. Also, thinking thru your rumination...there is the paradigm of VictoriaForeverIDon'tCareIfSheIsOddLooking -- Don'tMakeMeWorkWithALotOfGroups -- ChurnOutConformingClothing. This has a head of steam and life of it's own. My suspicion is that once Jessi gets stablized, a competing marketplace will emerge and have success, and THAT will have a life of it's own. But given the V and J meshes that drive these waves...couldn't Daz and CL publish an alternative bones/JP rig? Same meshes, better rig along the 'compromise' lines you mentioned. And if the two companies don't want to do it, couldn't a third party? Yes, all the conforming clothing in the two marketplaces would be void on altVickie and altJessi, but as you said...dynamic clothing. ::::: Opera :::::

Haven't looked at the meshes yet, but shouldn't be too long. "what are the prospects of getting a rigged, functioning model that does not suffer the unnatural shoulder girdle issues? A female model with natural looking shoulders and upper arm and inner elbow fold, for goodness sake." actually, you answered your own question when you thought through it more -- and that's where the real froth comes into play. specifically: "Don'tMakeMeWorkWithALotOfGroups -- ChurnOutConformingClothing." Don't underestmate the power of lazy people ;) I was careful to avoid going into places I'd rather not, but, essentially, the odds are good if you do it yourself. Otherwise, at this time, not very as the market stands now. "couldn't Daz and CL publish an alternative bones/JP rig?" yes, to some extent. THe meshes are certainly elastic enough (they have additional polys at the critical bend spots), but they would generally need to be regrouped and rigged. DAZ's use of the buttock section was done, iirc, to compensate for the bending of the leg, creating a smoother flow. In order to minimize the overall effort, for example, a similar element would work wonders in the shoulder and elbow area -- eliminating the issues there, for example. Will they? Well, CL might, if enough requests were to go into it and they saw and agreed with the reasons for it. DAZ would be more likely to, though, provided they could garner enough support from the contractors they work with. If not, then they'd step back from that. I rather expect that to be a large focus on these new figures, but, for me, unless they fix the issue with the head (the scaling trick throws off the neck and face textures, so is not an option), I'll not be getting them. AS for a thrid party doing so -- absolutely. ANd that would, indeed, be the most likely place for it to happen. However, the isue then becomes one of getting merchant support for that particular rigging, and for that I'll refer ya back to earlier...

I remember when Symphony remapped the Poser 4 Formal Gown. She gave the remap away and sold the textures. Almost everybody else immediately saw the virtue of her cylindrical map and made textures for it rather than the planar-pancaked original. Everybody had a choice, but the flow went with the improved version. If a better jointed figure was released (probably through CL so that the copyrights and encoding are done properly), most people would jump on it. However, I suspect that like the Gown, the remapped figure would need to be free or low-cost to assure a large market for the folks making conforming clothes and textures. Carolly