I have yet to get my poser6 although its not too far away. :-) but i was wondering whilst i await picking up the program from my postal dept, will the new characters get much support or will vicky rule the roost yet again. Just a thought.. whilst i wait.. here at work.. watching the clock.. LOL

I suspect Vicky will always rule the roost, considering SOOO many people have her with all the trimmings. Some people have spent thousands on her and her accessories. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the Mil figures, but I DO like Vicky 3 Reduced Rez. I think it's a great model, and good for animation. I think for sure Jessi and James will get more support than Judy and Don did. I know for sure I'll buy products for both figures if and when they start to become available. A lot of people don't like the way the characters look, but I think they're fine, and with good quality morphs/clothing, they'll be even better.

I like the way they look. I don't like the way they pose. 50% more polys than V3, but jointed like Posette???

I just got P6 yesterday and my first impression is that although Jessi and James look good, I don't think they'll take V3's crown!! Just my opinion though!! thefixer poser oordinator.

I think it will depend on what proportion of the user base are believed to have Poser 6, since only those will have Jessi and James figures, whereas anyone with P4, PP, P5 or P6 are a potential market for items for the Mil figures.

I think most merchants are followers, not leaders so no I doubt they'll get much support unless a few of the high profile merchants do several items for them. A critical mass of support if you will must be reached for any character to become successful and that doesn't happen often. The best bet would be if CL opened a store to compete with Daz and offered plenty of new items to support their characters but I doubt that will happen.

anyone with P4, PP, P5 or P6 are a potential market for items for the Mil figures. And don't forget...D|S. That may be the fastest-growing market, since DAZ is giving it away. I'm running into a lot of newbies these days who are using V3 and M3, and don't have a clue what Poser is.

Good point. Maybe CL should consider selling Jessi and James seperately. < maybe with a full refund voucher toward the purchase of P6 >

Message edited on: 04/01/2005 06:24

I have a slight suspicion: I think they were created by RDNA, who are actually selling the INJ and REM for them, as well as lots of stuff already, but for me...I'll wait and see how things go because buying all these paks will cost money and not only a few bucks and don't expect DAZ to create Platinum Club items for them.... Lev

I'm sticking with V3/M3/David/YT. Though, their noodly arms would be ripped out of the ball-joint sockets and replaced with 'real' arms in a heartbeat if I could!

i echo that CL would be wise to sell the P6 figures to their base with a forward credit. ::::: Opera :::::

CL should give away Jessi and James, IMO. And their morph packs. DAZ is giving away M3 and V3, and a program to use them in. Selling the P6 figures and offering a coupon ain't gonna cut it.

No, RDNA didn't model them. I read in a thread at RDNA (I think it was Colm, or Syyd who said) that They were done by some successful Japanese modeller.

I think they are supporting the models because they like em.

(Then again they liked Judy early on too. :) )

But seriously I think the models will do pretty well, but not touch the usage of mill figures. I plan to buy stuff for them. (If it's good.)

Message edited on: 04/01/2005 07:32

I'm really disappointed because Jessi and James have almost no morphs that come with them. That's one problem Don and Judy faced. (randym77, they do give away Jessi and James, with Poser 6, grin). I do like the fact that RDNA has jumped in there with stuff for sale, and a couple freebie head morph packs (limited versions of the commercial packs). However the problem is that I have just spent $129 to buy Poser 6, and need to stop spending money for awhile.

Vicky 3 and company have one really big edge beyond any debates about their quality. They've been around for years, and many of us have bought a lot of stuff to support them. Anytime you start a new character, you're looking at a potentially huge investment to buy stuff for them.

Message edited on: 04/01/2005 08:55

After playing around with Jessi for a while, I don't think she'll replace V3 or Steph petitie anytime soon. Why? Aforementioned rigging issues (old style rigging), joint issues (go ahead, and play with her toe bending... especially the big toe), and the fact that the base V3 and M3 are free, and have a wealth of support already. I think if CL was wise, they WOULD make Jessi and James free (or VERY cheap) figures in Content Paradise, and that might at least spark more interest. I'm sure RDNA came out with support for the figures because they are a Content Paradise partner, and I'm sure CL urged them to do supporting products for them. (And RDNA would have been stupid not to, since they literally are the only game in town for add ons for them right now.) I think if the characters were regrouped and rerigged with V3 type joints, that they might have a good chance of making a good sized dent in the V3 M3 market, but that is a massive amount of work, and existing products do not have the same grouping, so they could possibly become broken. At the end of the day, Give me Furette2 over Jessi... ;)

Gareee, Huh? You think the Unimesch characters have GOOD JP? You must be REALLY in love with Victoria. The rigging problem is POSER, not Jessie/James. Vickie is 'all in' with the problem. IMPORTANT NOTE: There is a group of specific, noted bizzare problems with the current Jessi model. They are being fixed. She will not have the foot/toe issue, etc. Not fair to judge on the basis of this flawed release. Please, instead, see JAMES. He does NOT have the bizarre flaws, but like Mike and Vickie he is a victim of the old-style Poser joint system. ::::: Opera :::::

I think I've played with the freebie V3 3 or 4 times, tops, so I'm not in love with her at all. But I do know when I pose a figure what I'm looking for, and what I'm not looking for, and I saw issues with Jessie I wasn't happy with at all. My choices for female figures right now (in no particular order) would be Girl, Aiko3, and NeftoonGal. And while it's nice to know they are addressing issues with Jessie, what I don;t understand, is why they weren;t fixed to begin with. Just about everyone agrees that adding the buttock and collar groups aids in pose ability, and Gril's rigging is very nice, and she poses quite well, with no issues at all. So the rigging pron;em isn't poser, it's the way they chose to rig Jessie and James. (And James does have texture issues that have been pointed out already...) But I didn't really by poser6 at all for content, but for the program, but for free, they are quite nice. But they aren't replacements for existing characters, they are just more flavors to choose from. But Chocolate always has been the most popular flavor, even though many other flavors have come out......

These new figures wont come close to touching the mill figures market share By the time "jeesie" get rerigged/fixed or whatever content creators will have lost what little interest they might have had and gone back to what they know sells. clothing etc. for V3 M3. Jessi ,although extremely attractive in the face,(IMHO) will be relegated to the hinterlands of "alternative" figures with a small dedicated following like : Elle,Natalia,Dina/Vina et al. and James?? Hmm the best default head on a poser male in a long time . too bad it sits atop what is essentially Dorks morphless body SIGHhhhhhh!!!! but Poser 6 is still worth upgrade anyway :-)

I said from the very beginning that the best chance to drum up support for J & J would be to make them free. But CL have never been very good at seeing where their own interests lie. If they did, they would have supported things like MAT files a long, long time ago. RDNA have one quality that other sites don't have. They've always been known for being the biggest supporters of P5. If you want P5-specific info, you go to RDNA. I think they're just continuing that strategy with P6. And a smart idea it is too. mac

"CL should give away Jessi and James, IMO. And their morph packs. DAZ is giving away M3 and V3, and a program to use them in." randym77

"I think if CL was wise, they WOULD make Jessi and James free (or VERY cheap) figures in Content Paradise, and that might at least spark more interest." Gareee

"I said from the very beginning that the best chance to drum up support for J & J would be to make them free. But CL have never been very good at seeing where their own interests lie. If they did, they would have supported things like MAT files a long, long time ago." maclean

CL included J & J to add value to, and increase sales of, P6 of course, so it would be risky, from CL's perspective to give J&J away. CL would have to think two moves ahead:
-increase the value of J & J to users by increasing the amount of support products
-then the value of P6 is increased because J & J are more valuable.
But that would only work if you had to buy P6 to get J&J? Which you wouldn't if they were free. Or am I missing something?

"I'm really disappointed because Jessi and James have almost no morphs that come with them." constantine_1234
That should be a big op for some enterprising merchant - set of morphs for J & J? Maybe how soon these appear will be telling vis a vis the subject of this thread. Such a product would be legal under the P6 EULA, wouldn't it?

Hi everyone, Great thread, and it's good to hear all the opinions. Basically J&J are free, if you buy P6 of course. We have no immediate plans for breaking them out for everyone but the trend does seem to be, give the character away and sell the peripherals. CL is just in a different spot than those that do not create core software. I would also mention that comparing the DAZ figs to P6 at this point is apples and oranges. V3 vs. J1, and the DAZ figures have not always been free, and frankly there's a good bit of personal preference involved in all of this. We're really close on the content updater which will address the aforemetioned toe issues. I think there's plenty of room for many more characters and variety is always good. If I only have x amount of dollars to spend I like to have choices and I have spent a good wad of cash on Poser content, including DAZ stuff. That being said, we're really trying to support any content developer creating for any P6 character. It just grows the community and that's good for Poser. Also I wanted to mention that RDNA did not create the characters for P6. They did provide a lot of support for us in many different aspects. If you would like to know about Jessi click on the "Featured Image" on contentparadise.com. and there's a list of credits. James was done by a Japanese artist, Larry, Myself, and Les and is in no way based on any previous body or rig. There's also over 10 people that I know of currently creating morphs for him but he's in his infancy so they will start to come out soon I'm sure. Again RDNA has been really helpful with so many things. They really put a lot of work into P6 and I want to give them their props. Anyways thanks again for the comments we'll keep them in mind. Steve

Might be risky, but IMO, it's a risk CL should have taken, if they are serious about the figures. Does anyone really believe that people will buy P6 to get James and Jessi? They just aren't that good, frankly. RDNA already sells morph packs for J&J, but I wonder how many people will buy them. (They supported Don and Judy, too, and it didn't do much good.)

OTOH, it may be that CL really isn't very serious about their figures. At least, not yet. Content Paradise has mostly stuff for the DAZ figures. Customers who go looking for stuff for Jessi will be lead straight into DAZ's loving arms.

I get the distinct feeling that the P6 people were a last-minute kind of thing. (Perhaps temporary placeholders for the P7 people, who will either have advanced rigging that makes buttocks unnecessary, or will be DAZ's Mike 3 Pro and Vicky 3 Pro.) The rigging is bad, the poses are terrible, the textures are screwed up. They are high-res, but it seems more of a brute-force thing than a truly high-quality figure. They didn't even get Schlabber to do the poses, like they did last time. Honestly, I cannot understand how these issues would have been missed, if they put any time into the figures.

I don't believe that the new characters aren't good, but I don't think they are as good as they could have been. I'm not talking about minor issues like joint fixes, but the basic rigging. It's been discovered that more advanced rigging (like Girl, and V3) is beneficial to overcome the rigging shortcomings of poser, and those advances should have been embraced. I think very few people upgraded to P6 because of the content. You guys did a very god job lisytening to things we wanted, and adding enough of them to make it worthwhile to upgrade. Honestly, I'll probably remove all the base content, and just add it if I decide to use it. I have plenty of content already, but I'd much rather see CL do the "meat n potatoes" thing with the releases.. sell a bundle with vase content for a little more, but sell the base program standalone, for people who've already invested in poser. Also, consider either doing a low ball price on the new characters for registered poser users, to get more of them out there. As a morph artist, I have little or no incentive at all to work on the new characters, because of the outdated rigging system in them, and if changed, all the current clothing would need to be redone, so I don't see that happening at all. Daz uses the "Base free release, and sell expansions" system, and obviously it's working very well for them. Why not just copy that same system, to be competitive? (Keeping in mind I already have P6, and the new content.. I'm not saying this so I can get it.) Since we have your ear, any idea when we'll see the first patch? (Not a date, but a ballpark 3 weeks, a month, ect.) Also, have you found any workarounds you can share to overcome the discovered issues (like using the cancel button instead of hitting ESC) Base things (I've already mentioned in other threads) I'd LOVE to see are: 1.) A higher res option for opengl... double what's currently being used, add whatever warnings that we need to know wabout, and let us do almost realtime animation! 2.) When adding morphs PLEASE adopt the morph file name (minus extender) and plop it into the name field. It's not hard, and would be a great benefit to developers. 3.) Or add a batch morph add function, as Little Dragon mentioned. Make people put the morphs for a group in a specific folder, and then add an option to read all the morphs in the folder, add it to the target group, and use the filenames as the dial name! Better still, read a nested folder, and require folders to have group naming, (Head, leye, ect.), and allow a bunch of them to be added at one time! 4.) The color picker for the main windowopens below it.. it needs to be draggable, and P6 needs to remember it's last open position. (with a large main window, it open off screen.) Only thing I really hope, is that these ideas aren't just reserved for P7, but are added to P6, as a show of adapting the new version to user's needs. Thanks for the read, Steve!

I have to laugh. Now there is a New Denial in the works. There have been lots of threads lately about the POSER rigging system, and how it is an impediment to good models. As a result of these threads at the same times as the release of Jessi, passing comments like that in Gareee's above assert that Victoria, unlike Jessi, has a GOOD rig and that he/she would not stoop to making morphs for such a poor model as Jessi. Please. See my next post on the denial system surrounding the Unimesh. Don't worry, Garreee, your efforts in morph making won't be missed. ::::: Opera :::::

Randy, despite everything you say, and all the issues, and despite the fact that per Steve the figures apparently will only be available with P6, I believe your conclusion will be proven wrong. I predict that one year from now you will see an intense, massive hobbyist marketplace for Jessi and James, and people making films with the low-res versions. The migration to P6 will be strong. One point about money: until VERY recently, in order to obtain Vickie and Mike with head/body morphs and hi-res textures, an investment of something like $130 was required. That's similar to the cost of upgrading to Poser 6. People paid it, and still pay it (mostly) despite the absurd problems with the model. In fact, I submit that Daz's heavy users are in denial of the rampant flaws in the Unimesh BECAUSE they pay so much for them. Meanwhile, the morph sets for J/J will be tremendous. Personally, of course, I hope 3Dream does his thing again. Jose Silva, if you are reading this, when she gets stablized, go for it. Your morph system for Judy is far superior than that which Daz deploys for Vickie. Eternal Jessi would be awesome. And, purely a suggestion, perhaps instead of $12.50 for the morphs AND textures, the price should be $79.99 or so just for morphs. The price supports the perception and the perception supports the price. Daz has proven that. ::::: Opera :::::

Qualien: "Such a product [third-party morph system] would be legal under the P6 EULA, wouldn't it?" 3Dream distributes his morph system encoded for Judy. You have to own a legal license for Poser5Woman to deploy EJ. I would imagine CL would have no objection to the same arrangement for Jessi, also a free figure. ::::: Opera :::::

I think what Gareee means is the rig that DAZ made the standard in Poser - collars and buttocks. That was a vast improvement on Posette and Dork. Don and Judy have collars and buttocks, too, so J&J are really a step backwards. Now, it may be that they did this because they plan to create a new rigging system in the future that will make buttocks and collars unnecessary. But that doesn't help us now.

Maybe you're right; I don't claim to be able to predict the future. But so far, this is reminding me more and more of what happened to Don and Judy. Releasing flawed figures and hoping the community fixes them isn't a terribly successful tactic.

BTW, I think Gareee also has a good point about the Girl's rig. I don't own her, so I'm no expert. But she does seem to look good, in the images I've seen. And I know her rigging is quite unusual. Her default pose is a weird splayed position, not the standard T. So I think rigging could indeed be improved, without changing Poser's rigging system. You just have to think outside the box, like Kim did with The Girl.

I likelyh will abandon Jessi and James just because they're really no better than Don & Judy if they don't have more free morphs. It would be nice if Curious Labs would give people some good, versatile content, free with Poser. And while you're at it, get rid of all that old junk no one ever uses.

Opera,
You're right about legality, of course. Just remembered a quote Geep quoted in another thread (http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2185606):*
*** POSER 5 END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT (EULA) ***

CONTENT DISTRIBUTION

I. The purpose of defining certain content as Restricted Content is to protect the Companys investment, interests, and ownership of Restricted Content. It is not the Companys policy to unreasonably restrict or inhibit any third partys creative or commercial activities. The following are Legitimate Uses of Restricted Content:

• Creating characters or props based on Restricted Content in proprietary file formats, where the original (or modified) geometry, texture, or other Restricted Content Files are not distributed with said characters or props.*

(Language is the same in P6 EULA, by the way.)

Re the "rigging" issue. In practice, the bulk of morphs for human figures are for the head, not the buttocks.

"...And while you're at it, get rid of all that old junk no one ever uses..." constantine_1234

Probably not too realistic. If you get rid of the robots, say, there will be someone out there who deletes their old runtime, then expects to load an old pz3 which has a robot in it, and it doesn't work, and they scream bloody murder. For software makers, backward compatability is a bitch.

I don't think, with regard to 'rigging', that they are talking about morphs. Instead, they are talking about joint parameters ('bones', weighting, bulges). How these are set up directly influence the believability and flexibility of the figure. My biggest complaint about Daz3D figures (V3/M3/etc.) is the arms. There is something about the elbow and shoulders that are tell-tale give aways that the figure used is one of these. Why? Because there is something incorrect about the way they bend and deform the mesh. This is the same issue in relation to the buttocks and collars. I think that is the point made above - that the Daz figures fixed this issue over CL figures (Posette and Dork). But of course, they introduced other issues (elbow and shoulders). Although Poser's rigging system (tri-axial independent weighting using twist line, bend angles, SFZ's, and bulges) performs well under minor conditions, under more extreme poses, it breaks. The deformations do not follow a real human's, not even close in many instances. Sometimes (and that is 'sometimes') there are corrective morphs for these conditions. In the worst case, you can use magnets or create your own morphs. But it gets tiring since every pose in one way or another requires corrective measures. Maybe one day in the distant future, we'll have that Poser-like figure which has the structure so close to the real thing that these measures won't even be needed.

kuroyume0161,
I guess I fail to understand. The thread topic is about the support for Jessi and James. What is that support, in the context of 'rigging' if it is not morphs?

Poses? Will bad rigging make 3rd party poses impossible?

If 'rigging' refers to Poser and how it handles the bones and joints of all figures, Girl or V3 or Jessi, it seems a moot issue in terms of head morphs (which most morphs are, in practice) because the head (unless you count the eyeballs) is a simply a single mesh in every human figure I have seen. That's the point I was trying to make. I don't see that joint-handling - in P6 or in Jessi in particular - will affect people making and selling expressions, facial shapes, etc.

"Although Poser's rigging system (tri-axial independent weighting using twist line, bend angles, SFZ's, and bulges) performs well under minor conditions, under more extreme poses, it breaks."

What are merchants selling products for Jessi and James supposed to do, or not do, about this? Sorry if I am missing something, but I do not see how your comments are on the topic.

I have a $40.00 credit at Daz from my original M and V purchase, maybee this is worth spending it on.

With the girl's standard morph pac, can you make her face into toon characters that don't look like this default?

::::: Opera :::::

Opera,
What whiskey you drinking tonight? Labrot & Graham Woodford Reserve Distiller's Select Kentucky Straight Bourbon again?

That Girl has shoulders like Dick Butkus.

(For informational purposes only: I am drinking Scoresby scotch, because I cannot afford Knockandu anymore, let alone Laguvalin. Whiskey snobs of the world unite!)

Yes, I still have part of that bottle left! I may go back to scotch for a while, Dalwhinnie is my favorite. LoL I guess I am desperate...she has the shoulder pads, but maybe the arms are less speghetti and the inward curve is not so bad. Desperatly hoping to find something at DAZ to use my $40.00 credit on! Can't use it for utilities. ::::: Opera :::::

I guess I fail to understand. The thread topic is about the support for Jessi and James. What is that support, in the context of 'rigging' if it is not morphs? Poses? Will bad rigging make 3rd party poses impossible? No. But it does make or break (pun intended) the feasibility of poses. I don't buy too many V3/M3/etc. pose packs because of the poor rigging. Again, the rigging isn't as bad as P4 figures, but still not good. If 'rigging' refers to Poser and how it handles the bones and joints of all figures, Girl or V3 or Jessi, it seems a moot issue in terms of head morphs (which most morphs are, in practice) because the head (unless you count the eyeballs) is a simply a single mesh in every human figure I have seen. That's the point I was trying to make. I don't see that joint-handling - in P6 or in Jessi in particular - will affect people making and selling expressions, facial shapes, etc. I agree. But this thread isn't about face morphs, now is it? It's about the quality (overall!) of jessie and james, oh, as compared to Don and Judy, Posette and Dork, Vicky and Michael, Abbott and Costello. See? :) If J&J are no better (or worse) than other characters in respect to rigging and posing, then no amount of facial morphs are going to make them worthwhile to use (unless your sole use of POSER is for doing head shots and only head shots). On Topic...

Now, it may be that they did this because they plan to create a new rigging system in the future that will make buttocks and collars unnecessary. The buttocks are a kluge to get around rigging limitations, but collars will always be necessary...

Opera Guy...IMO, no, you can't make the Girl look very different with her standard morph pack. Her face is quite distinct. However, check out "Boopsie" by Capsces (for sale at DAZ). When that morph pack came out, it almost made me buy the Girl. You can even turn her into a boy. Though how you dress her after her sex change is an issue.

Qualien, I don't mean I want more buttocks morphs for Jessi and James. LOL! I mean I want buttocks body parts, to help with posing. Compare Jessi and Judy, and you'll see what I mean. (Or Posette and Judy, if you don't have Jessi.) Jessi is jointed like Posette, Judy is jointed like Vicky.

Having those extra body parts does make posing more confusing for newbies, but IMO, it's worth it. Posette was a great figure for her time, but her mesh tends to break at the shoulders and hips in fairly ordinary poses. (Bending over, with a hand on her head, etc.)

The reasons this is an issue for support... One, J&J's Posette-style rigging is a turnoff for most users. It's keeping people who might otherwise embrace these figures from using them. That obviously affects support.

Two, some people are supposedly working on improving J&J's rigging. Not CL, but some third-party types. I assume they would give them a Vicky/Judy type rigging. If they do that, they will pose better, but any conforming clothing made for J&J will no longer fit. Again, a likely merchant issue that will affect support.

As it is, a lot of people are holding off making stuff for Jessi, because CL has said they are going to change the rigging on her feet.

These problems are really unfortunate, because if the community is going to embrace a new figure, they generally do so shortly after it appears. I think people really wanted to like Jessi, but the rigging was a big disappointment.

I saw Boopsie over there. You know, even for toon, I would want total control over the face. Time will tell, Randy, if as in your last paragrah this release and fix situation with Jessi (remember, no one is complaining about James and that's a good sign) is fatal or will be looked back on in a year as a minor speed bump. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing what can easily be done to give Jessi a cute tushi, body part or no body part, once the true content release comes out. I won't even specualte right now -- that would be ass backwards! (bourbon in bottle 01656 almost gone) ::::: Opera :::::

Yep, rigging typically IS talking about group and joint setup in characters. Girl does have a very unique rig setup, and she was created like that to "work around" poser's joint limitations, and she poses far better then any other human character in my runtime. Other new characters have adopted the same solution, because it works much better then anything else we've had before this. And, no Girl's "official" add on morphs set doesn't give you shape or character crating morphs, but my Grrrl Plus morph set does (and adds hand and foot scaling, since some people wanted them smaller. My morph set is more of a character (head) morph set, and Capsce's Boopsie is a excellent complement to it. (As a matter of fact, all 3 morph sets work well in tandem with each other, the official one giving you Girl's great expressive ability, my set giving you radical facial morphs and the body scaling options (longer arms and legs for instance), and Boopsie brings Capsce's body style morphs to the table as well. In Daz's freepository, is a freebie combo of Grrrl! Plus and Boopsie, and you can inject Daz's morphs to complete the set.. we wanted to offer the most versatile possibilities for the character, and most people won't have known how to combine them properly to achieve that goal. And Operaguy, I think you are just going totally over the top as far as Jessie and James are concerned. Facially, they are nice looking, and have greatest morph possibilities, because of the dense mesh... but that also becomes a limitation as well. There have been many complaints already that the lower res version of the characters are too "geometric" looking, and that will limit the low res usage as well. And the morphs included in Jessi just don't have that same expressiveness as say, Girl, or Elle, IMHO. And people are always raising the bar, and expectations are high about things like that. My predictions are that Jessi and Jame will get some passionate followers, much like Eternal Judy, and Sara, but at the end of the day, Aiko3, Steph Petite, and David will be the most used human characters. (I really tried resisting Aiko3, not wanting another toon gal, but I finally gave into the dark side, and have been assimilated into the Aiko3 lover collective.) I DO think there will be more migration to P6, not because of the characters, but because of the improvements in the material room, lighting, opengl, and dynamic clothing, and I think we'll see a LOT more dynamic clothing now that it computes faster. And operaguy, step back from your passion for the new P6 characters, take a deep breath, and objectively look at what each character's options are before making a decision. It sounds like you have a huge dislike for anything "Daz", and that's coloring your judgment. You claim huge costs of their characters, when in fact, if you buy them when they are on special sales, or are introduced, you get them damned cheap. (The recent Millennium Dragon 2 is an excellent example of this.) If something better comes along, I'm the first to adopt it, but I'm objective enough to be able to recognize that.

Actually, though, I did see one thread complaining about James. Schlabber started one. I think he's the one that noticed James' textures are awful. (They are supposedly fixing them.) He also complained that James does not bend well (no doubt because of the rigging issues), and that the included poses are terrible. Schlabber a posing expert. He's made widely acclaimed pose sets for years, for figures from Posette to Mike 3, so it's not that he's not used to the new figures.

The Poser rigging system is indeed archaic, and no Poser figure will pose perfectly using it. But there's always room for improvement. V3 and M3 were the first unimesh figures, and they have problems that DAZ fixed in later figures. For example, SP poses a lot better than V3, at least in her hip and abdomen area. Laura is much better than V3 in the arms and shoulders - so much so that some people are using V3's or SP's body morphs on her, and using her as their main adult figure. If Jessi had SP's butt and Laura's arms, she'd be awesome.

I really has little or no interest in Lara, but I might have to revisit those thoughts, if she poses better the SP, and can still take her morphs.

You can directly inject many of V3's and SP's morphs on Laura, but I suspect they are using Morph Manager to transfer them. That seems to work better.

Laura's head is large for her body, since she's a child figure, but a lot of people think DAZ makes heads too small, so that's not really a problem. When she's fully clothed, Laura's head doesn't look that big, and you can always scale it a bit if you want.

Anyway, it's worth a try, the next time DAZ has one of their 50% off sales. If you don't like it, you can always return it. :-)

I wonder if someone would consider re-doing Jessi to have the Girl's rigging? Now that might be interesting.

Why would low-res Jess look blocky? From what I could see, she looked about the same as high-res Jess, and I would think Poser's smoothing would take care of it anyway. I do find James and Jessi look a bit blocky anyway, but not as a result of their resolution. Rather, it looks to me like an artistic choice. Low-res James and Jessi have the same number of polys as V2 and M2, so I would think they'd look pretty good.

I thought about fixing Jessi But you can't redistribute the mesh so adding mat zones is out, as well as regrouping. Plus, everything currently made for her won't work if she's rerigged, so you create a niche market within a niche market, like EJ. I think the biggest factor is initial impressions when a figure is out, and other then a few fanatics, like operaguy, and people who have products out for them (like the RDNA crew), general response has been lukewarm, to outright disapointment. Look at some of the coolest poser fantasy outfits out there, and then look at snow queen.. it's just bland compared with some other items out there (like say, the new Aiko3 Dragon Queen), whoch really has some great "style" to it. The thing is, we always keep upping the bar, and new items have to include any new benefits that are possible. There's been a human character glut for a year or so now, and the bottom line, just like real life, is hat the strong will survive, and the weak will perish. And honestly, I use toon/non human characters far more then human ones anyway. Look at the human characters that have gotten little or no attention, even though in many cases, they are quite good: SheFreak Elle The entire Aeon line David Eternal Judy Neftoon Gal and Neftoon Guy The upside of course, is that there is more diversity, and we have more options available. The downside, is that people's pockets are only so deep, and they can only afford supporting so many characters, and real quality content creators can only create so fast. Maybe clothing convertor will help with this in it's newest incarnation, but that remains to be seen. Me? I'll be tinkering with the latest nifty creature, toon person, or fantasy character, or bending the human characters into new creatures.

Gareee,

I have no such hatred of things DAZ per se, nor passionate advocacy for Jessi the way she is. Nothing of the kind. In fact, (with due respect for the content SR due out momentarily) at the moment Jessie is WORSE than Vicki, in my opinion, and my opinion of Vickie is REALLY low.

How can you animate these female characters in the nude or with conforming second-skin clothing with the football gear shoulder, elbow bizarreness, knee and inward-bending spaghetti arms?

Where my passion REALLY lies is here: I am an advocate of a proper rigging system for Poser.

I'm not angry about the current lack of...this is a $250 program that started life as an artist's tool to pose stick figure so you could model in reality. I am amazed and grateful it can do what it can do. Just think of what has been brought in in the last year or two...procedural materials, raytrace shadows, 3D blur, and now AO, IBL, spot lights, etc, etc. Amazing. It is entirely possible that in the next two years there could be a 64-bit rewrite and a new rigging system. Frankly, it is my responsibility to not delude myself that Poser is Max or Maya at this time.

There are no great models right now, including Jessi and Victoria. That is my deep breath, cooled off, objective opinion.

As some may know, my favorite model is Masha for 3DS Max. But most likely if an attempt were made to bring her into Poser, she would suffer the same fate as V/J because of the current Poser Rigging System.

Money is not the issue for me in this regard, so that element is not coloring my thinking. If I thought Masha could be Poserized I'd pay the $295.00 right now, right this instant. If Daz ever solves the rigging issue (they won't unless they do it in their own program) I will be there with my CC the day they bring out a great model and I hope they charge $295.00

Despite YOUR passion for the unimesh, that paradigm is awful, simply awful, first because of the limits to the Poser rigging system to which Vicki is completely subject, no less so than Jessi, second because in an attempt to compensate and allow for broad morph-creation, Vickie is too hi-res, third, because her basic proportions and sculpting are unpleasant. It only succeeds because there is no better Poser model and because a huge market has built up around the 'sexual' look of Victoria. That's my opinion.

I merely PREDICT, based on what I think is going to happen to 'save' Jessi, that there will be a huge thriving third-part market for Jessi that may take a year to blossom. But even more important than the 'size' of that market: The success of J/J will support and even DRIVE the sale to new people of Poser6 itself.

That is my response to the original post of this thread...

"Will Jesse and James get good support?"

Yes, they will.

::::: Opera :::::

Randy: "I wonder if someone would consider re-doing Jessi to have the Girl's rigging? Now that might be interesting." Why not to Vickie also? She needs it just as much. Taking a look at The Girl, as I said above, she seems to suffer LESS so from the usual problems then does Vickie and Jessi et al. But still, she does have those shoulder pads. ::::: Opera :::::

I don't think there's any point in changing V3 at this point. She's got too much stuff made for her already, and re-rigging would make it all useless. If you're going to re-do a figure, it has to be a new one. One that doesn't have a lot of stuff yet.

Besides, DAZ will no doubt address V3's rigging problems with V3 Pro and D|S. I just hope their solution works in Poser as well.

A big advantage DAZ has is that people know the figures will be supported. No one wants to be stuck with a figure they can't dress. Dynamic cloth and skin shaders may eventually change this, but for now, it's a huge consideration in the average buyer's mind. For most of us, money is an issue, and we can't take a chance on a character like Elle until we know it will be embraced by the community. No one wants to find out they're the proud owners of a Betamax in a VHS world. That is why people will shell out $100 for a DAZ figure and morphs, but won't pay $12 for EJ. It's not that they want to spend more money, or that they think money is quality. (If that were the case, we'd all be at Turbosquid.) Rather, it's that when the latest cool fetish gear from Batlab or hair by Koz is posted, they want to be able to use it. IOW...you're asking why people keep buying Windows when Linux is free.

Gareee....couldn't Jessi be redistributed if she were RTEncoded or something? How is Nea being redistributed?

I'm not sure how relaxed CL will be with thier content.. thier Eula in P6 looks pretty aggressive, so it's hard to really tell. Operaguy, about my "passion" for the unimesh figures.. check my products.. ALL of them. Check my galleries.. ALL of them. Now try to find ONE product or ONE gallery post with a unimesh figure in it.. you know how many there are?? There's ONE gallery post, Hulkshini, using freak's body, and Koshini's head! That's it! (And I really like Freak, BTW.) I don't have a "love" for the unimesh figures.. I do have a love for the rigging in them, compared to J&J's riggin, and I already said Girl has got that beaten as well, as far as poseability. (And with Capsce's morphs, she has smaller shoulders, but still has the superior rigging.) I'd also love to see high end rigging in poser, but the bottom line, is we work with what we have available in our toolbox, and that was not done with J&J, and they will suffer because of that lack of vision. We'll have to revisit this topic again next year some time.

as I said above, EJ is already redistributed i RTEncoded so it is likely Jessi could also be, why would they object? ::::: Opera :::::

Different owners, maybe? Judy is based on Posette, which was made by DAZ. (Or the company DAZ was back then.) DAZ is pretty laid back about redistributing their meshes. They get a lot of grief, but really, as long as you RTEncode it, they don't mind. They (quite rightly, IMO) believe that community support is the key to success. They know they could never adequately support their figures on their own.

Jessi and James are apparently entirely new meshes, created by a Japanese modeller. Perhaps he doesn't want people messing with them, or CL doesn't.

Maybe someone could ask CL? It would be a real waste of time to re-rig Jessi if re-distributing her won't be allowed.