I've had more time than usual to spend in forums these last few weeks. Probably more than I did in the five years previous. And I've been amused and amazed at some of the stuff I've come across. But definitely the most interesting are the arguments here about alleged censorship/locked & deleted threads. Render is quite determined about what the direction of these forums and what they should consist of. Particularly this community center, it seems.

But that amuses me. See, I spend MORE time in the general discussion forums than anywhere else because of the potential for unpredictability and the varied topics. I'd say I spend twelve minutes there to every one in forums for POSER or VUE or BRYCE, etc. Let's face it, for the most part those forums consists of 'I'm having a texture problem...' 'Well, did you...' 'That worked. Thanks.' Sorry. That's not riveting conversation. Not to me anyway.

But the general topics can actually be quite entertaining. And not just here.

So I was wondering how many of you actually spend more time in the general forums and if/why you prefer it.

And because I'm a low-down dog, I can ensure that as long as we're civil this topic won't be locked down for not following the guidelines because -- that's right -- I'm going to include a prerequisite query about art which every single respondent must answer:

What's your favorite figure? Mike, V3, Sara?

Discuss.

kmw

Kmw,

As far as my fav goes thats a toss up between two sixus1 figures, I currently really like the new grey alien 2.5 by sixus1 media, but I also really like the way the hair/fur looks on the chupacabra by sixus1 too! "Let's face it, for the most part those forums consists of 'I'm having a texture problem...' 'Well, did you...' 'That worked. Thanks.' Sorry. That's not riveting conversation. Not to me anyway." Yep and soon, I think thats all that one will find in the community forums too.

Message edited on: 05/02/2005 19:30

I will tell you what the problem is and what is sadly being taken away here. There are times when this forum consists of "I'm having a texture problem..."Well did you,,," That worked. Thanks. And sure, this is a place that should happen, some folks like quick and decisive, that's fine. There are also times this forum is about "I'm having a texture problem in the midst of already having a bad hair day and my kids are driving me bonkers and my toilet just overflowed and I broke another bloody nail on this keyboard trying to work in poser and type here and..."Well, did you,,,are you,,,hey, I'm having one of those days too, and here's some advice for...and I saw some awsome shoes for sale at..bla, bla, bla... That last once is what is being frowned upon and I don't understand why? Getting to know the real side of folks and each other can actually be beneficial in aquiring clientel and devoted customers as well as members; if people can be allowed to mingle at ease with comfort the rewards might well be the greatest 'comeback'... Has this all been forgotten?

LornaW, I miss the C&D, OT and Den... and feel the need to converse about those things which inspire or frustrate a person, because we do reflect our times and our art (at least if it is really art and not craft) is being filtered through our minds and experiences. However, there are people who are less than mature, who roil things for the sake of causing distress, who'll fight over the personas and not the issues. They want attention or they want to be right (and sore winners can be as obnoxious as whining losers). For every person who'll talk about their cat or the incredible costumes in the movie they saw, there is someone who'll make nasty remarks about another's political affiliation or mix up morality and bigotry. If someone is having health problems, I want to send a hug their way, if they are remodeling a house and salvaged some antique wallpaper, I want to send congratulations... but how do we keep those discussions where we reach out to people sharing life experiences and effectively discourage discussions involving the presumed parentage of a slime mold in ratty underwear? There are so few tools for community maintenance... if people do not care what others think (and even relish being despised), they can cause an incredible amount of damage to the social fabric. As friends we will defend our friends, and the situation can spiral out of control within hours. A libertarian could argue that a healthy community could survive without the need for maintenance or moderation, but with 300,000 members, most of whom have screen names? Perhaps if we were less passionate... but if we were, we wouldn't be artists, would we? Currently, I like the looks of James. Rugged, masculine, but he looks like a man who could laugh. I wish that he was grouped better, but I can work with him. And I still like Michael 2. Carolly

I spent more time in the OT forum than anywhere else on the net. It was my home. Deleting it hurt me deeply.

I seem to remember the OT and I remember bonestructure and laughing at all his wonderful humor. "Currently, I like the looks of James. Rugged, masculine, but he looks like a man who could laugh. I wish that he was grouped better, but I can work with him. And I still like Michael 2." But Carolly, you never even mention the old poser dork we hear about sometimes? Don't you just love that all around age old innocent, lame look he gave us and with one touch you could make him grin such a profound smile! Now there was some unintentional perversion with one simple 'smile' morph dial, LOL!! See? We really should be able to laugh more. It's not always about pulling each others hair out. I don't recall someone like bonestructure above ever damaging anyone and he certainly leaves a very passionate message here above.

The problem with these figures is getting a wide ear-to-ear grin out of any of them, except the GIRL who looks frozen and unnatural. Elle isn't bad. None of them have dimples, though, not like mine. (Mine are lopsided, but genuine.) James has the best smile of the guys. The children, every last one of them, are pathetic when it comes to smiles (and they should have the best ones). They look terrified more than anything. Part of the problem is the teeth and the shadowing, but a smile needs to go past the eyes. Too many of the characters are sold with tough-guy snarls or bitch-queen sneers, perhaps because it is easier to get a realistic look of contempt from these meshes. I wonder if we'd get along better if we had friendlier characters (not sexpots begging for approval, but just nice characters) to be looking at all day. One thing about the Dork and Posette was that we could readily get friendly folk... and we perhaps were more accepting of imperfections. Carolly

LornaW: I love yr response and agree with you completely. But you DIDN'T tell us which is your favorite model and why. Pls, play by the rules. thanx. As for what you did say, I think that's what's so enjoyable about the general forums. People just relaxing and getting something off their chest. Maybe even being comforted by like-minded individuals. On another site I started a thread about the fact I didn't have enough money to buy a new laptop. The replies didn't just make me laugh but it came from people who understood how in the large scheme of things that may be small but it's still important to me. According to Render's policy, that discussion could't be had here. And that's too bad because those are the ones I'm looking for... Oaky, that's that. Now, LornaW, tell us which is yr fav fig before you get this thread locked for corn's sake! kmw

"Will You Be My Friend?" Bobasaur says, I've never used Mike Vicky or Sara so I don't have a favorite. The (formerly) Banned Baby has a spot in my heart though.

Message edited on: 05/03/2005 10:29

hauksdottir: valid points indeed. But aren't the, excuse the expression, assholes an acceptable/detrimental aspect of a free speech society? While I understand that if the Mods aren't careful, there are those who can turn a civilized discussion into a vicious rant, but is the answer to not have the conversation at all? I don't know about you, but in the real world I don't let anyone tell me what I can and can't talk about. I'm not a child and the idea of being treated like one can be unsettling, if not flat out offensive. And I've been in forums where Mods have flat out said 'Shut up' or 'Enough'. (Only once was that actually directed at me and I gotta be honest, if we'd been standing on a street corner right here in ol' New York I'd've responded 'Or what?' Of course all I had available to me was a quick PM to the offender...) I'm just saying it's a hard line to walk. How do you give people the right to talk and then tell them what they can talk about? And sadly, I haven't had the opportunity to use James. P6 is still waiting to be installed. But next week, I get the new laptop and I'll be a-rendering again! YIPEEEEE! kmw

bobasaur: That's one scary ass baby. kmw

"How do you give people the right to talk and then tell them what they can talk about? "

If James was in the real world working in an office with Jesse, although he'd technically have the right to free speech the fact is that there are certain things that he could get in trouble for saying.

Imagine if he said, "Hey Jesse, let me see if you look better in this skimpy leather outfit than Vicky does. If you do I'll enlarge your boobs and use you as a recepticlal for my unholy lust in this temple dedicated to the Demon of Convenience."

His intent wouldn't even matter - if what he said was perceived (even by someone other than Jesse) as sexual harassment he could be penalized.

In other words, it happens all the time both in the real world and online. People are given the 'right' to free speech, but constrained in it's usage via legal or other means.

Message edited on: 05/03/2005 11:11

Pls, play by the rules. thanx.

What the......?

Why would we want to do that?

I thought that "playing by the rules" was against the rules.

And I've been in forums where Mods have flat out said 'Shut up' or 'Enough'. (Only once was that actually directed at me and I gotta be honest, if we'd been standing on a street corner right here in ol' New York I'd've responded 'Or what?'

A more apt comparison would be if you were standing on the street corner in New York, and a cop told you to 'shut up'.

Respond to a cop by saying 'Or what?'......and you might find out.

I've seen the results of no rules. It isn't pretty.

But one has to admit that some people thrive in such an environment......for a while, anyway. As long as they are the biggest bully on the block (at least in their own mind). Then it's a wonderful situation for them.

But when a cop (or other authority figure) comes along and tells the bully to behave himself -- the reaction can be quite similar to that of a three-year-old being told to settle down.

"Waaaaahhhhhh!!!!! NO!!!!! I WANT! I WANT! I WANT!!!!!!! MINE! MINE! MINE! Waaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!!

Adult discussions among adults can be wonderful and informative things.

But the briefest of reflections upon the long sordid history of humanity offers a quick explanation as to why we can't get along in the forums.

And such a quick peek into history will also provide the answer as to why forum rules -- and the authoritative mods to enforce them -- are a great idea.

Some of us have the wherewithal to survive in the jungle. Some of us. We could even thrive there.

But we prefer not to live that way.

Long and prosper live for dictators, without them the humanity will be lost in the caos.

without them the humanity will be lost in the caos

Yes, it's a terrible thing to be lost in the caos (sic).

And all laws (of whatever kind) are encompassed by dictators -- by definition.

((Or should I say hic!?))

"But you DIDN'T tell us which is your favorite model and why. Pls, play by the rules. thanx." Hmmmm..I suppose that would not so much depend on 'what' character I like, but what folks 'do' with the characters. I haven't any faves really. I've seen some lovely renders of Michael here, as I've seen some awsome pictures done with the age old dorky guy. Guess I can't really decide, depends on the renders..LOL!

XENOPHONZ: "A more apt comparison would be if you were standing on the street corner in New York, and a cop told you to 'shut up'. ... Respond to a cop by saying 'Or what?'......and you might find out."

HA! Never met me, have you? Telling a cop to shut the f*^#k up wouldn't give me a second's thought. Especially if I thought his words/behavior were unjustified. If I thought the cop was disrespecting me without warrant, yeah, I'd say it. Now if I knew I was wrong, if I KNEW I was out of line and gave him reason -- a RIGHT -- to say it? Well, I'd shut up. Of course, I'd do that if the other guy was a plumber. A badge isn't a free pass with me.

I grew up in the South Bronx, amigo. Remind me to tell you about the night this yellow cab made an illegal left turn and tore off my bumper. Better yet, let my wife tell you. Or the two cops who were there.

XENOPHONZ: "But when a cop (or other authority figure) comes along and tells the bully to behave himself -- the reaction can be quite similar to that of a three-year-old being told to settle down."

Hmmm. I suppose. But I'm not sure how the analogy applies to Render, its threads and how we're discussing them here.

Are you saying Render's a cop, the, for lack of a better word, complainers are bullies and when Render exerts authority, you get a lot of whining?

I'm not trying to be a wise guy, X. I really am curious.

Still, I'll admit you make some points. In truth, tho I started this topic I'm not sure how I feel either way. [What Render does just isn't important enough to my day...] I do lament that a general topic forum can be marginalized. It just seems ironic. It likes being told you can eat what you want and then seeing there's only baloney on the table.

By the way, you didn't mention which figure you prefer. What're you? Some kinda rebel or something?

bobasaur: "His intent wouldn't even matter - if what he said was perceived (even by someone other than Jesse) as sexual harassment he could be penalized."

Yes, I suppose that's so. But I really haven't come across any of that yet. This irrational bullying or name calling. A total disregard for others. All I've seen so far are threads that're discussing a particular issue and someone somewhere deciding okay, you're not going to talk about that anymore. And in those threads there weren't -- IMHO -- any members getting out of hand or being offensive.

Yes there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. But I haven't seen anyone come anywhere near it (in the threads I've seen locked). Being abusive and insulting and insensitive? Harrassment? Yes, those elements should be dealt with immediately. But deciding, oh, no, you're not having this conversation? That's a different line of thought, bobasaur. But as I said, tho I've been rendering near seven years now, I've spent little real time in the forums. Only over the last month or so. Perhaps mods can see something I can't. Perhaps in Pengy's thread they saw eventually someone would call someone a doody-head and to prevent that chose to still the voices altogether.

So, yes, I understand that free speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want. But it doesn't mean I'll tell what you can say either.

kmw

"they saw eventually someone would call someone a doody-head and to prevent that chose to still the voices altogether." Now I don't know about the rest of ya, but if I were a mod, and could foretell the future like that, I would not be a mod here for all that long. LOL In fact I would be a mod only as long as it took to buy the next winning lottery ticket. LOL

"And all laws (of whatever kind) are encompassed by dictators -- by definition." And of course enforced by judges, so pure and illuminated that are able to throw the first stone. Then you have the choosen ones that are the defenders of purity and morality, they only know the moral that must be applied to you and of course don't forget all the horde of toadies of dictators, judges, choosen ones and anyone that has some power. A question: A cop is a member of the SS, Gestapo, NKVD or KGB? I always supposed that they were something else! --------- I love Vicky3 and Stephanie 1

"There are so few tools for community maintenance... if people do not care what others think (and even relish being despised), they can cause an incredible amount of damage to the social fabric." Yep. I wonder if the 'Rosity admins & mods aren't looking through the wrong end of the telescope..... In looking through the locked posts, it's interesting how the same half a dozen or so names keep jumping out - posters whose posts, out of ignorance or malice, seem intended to cause discord. Maybe, instead of a forum-wide effort to police "off-topic" threads, enforcement efforts directed at the trolls as individuals would be more effective.... Just a thought....

I sometimes do wonder why there be a forum at all, if we are not supposed to speak or write or think into it? Could it possibly be that some of us are not just trolls, but actual members that care and would like to see this place grow and have some value more than just yes and no answers and how are you, yes, okay, I am fine, how about you?? There is a great wealth in many ways here, and I'm not just talking about the store, that's just a part of it, and the gallery and the information here that 'can' be had amongst us all can be invaluabe; but we are also people here, many of us have gotten to know each other here and although you sure may well have your miscrossed, misjudged, misguided characters at times, most of us would just like the opportunity to communicate on another invaluable part of this place; it's 'forum' whether it's on or about textures in poser or pleasantries about art or someone having grief over their unsightly mole on their butt. I mean hey, someone's unsightly butt mole may become another person's idea for another awsome texture, won't be the first time some or any form of communication amongst artistic types led to inspirational ideas of some great form. Isn't that what it's all about? Why have a quiet forum or a forum where everyone goes to, but no one wishes to speak much anymore because they need to be too cautious or be afraid to communicate just in case it is taken as a form of causing 'discord'? Should it read "Welcome LornaW" at the top of my screen? Or perhaps it should say "Welcome LornaW, please wear this muzzle in your time spent here because you just talk way too much!"

I'm not trying to be a wise guy, X. I really am curious.

kmw --

Let me start off by saying that your post was reasonable both in its tone and in its approach to the issue.

That's......jarring.

Most of my opponents on this type of issue tend to scream bloody murder. And hurl personal insults and abuse.

Which tells me where they are coming from in the first place.

shrug

That method never works with me, but they don't know any other way.

However -- you haven't taken that approach.

You are to be commended.

HA! Never met me, have you? Telling a cop to shut the f^#k up wouldn't give me a second's thought. Especially if I thought his words/behavior were unjustified. If I thought the cop was disrespecting me without warrant, yeah, I'd say it. Now if I knew I was wrong, if I KNEW I was out of line and gave him reason -- a RIGHT -- to say it? Well, I'd shut up. Of course, I'd do that if the other guy was a plumber. A badge isn't a free pass with me.*

I don't know how they grow the cops up in NYC, but if you were to address a cop where I live that way -- you'd be in for a bad night. In a bad place. With really bad people for company.

And you'd meet a nice judge bright 'n early the following morning.

A judge that would give you 30 days if you looked at him sideways.

Fun all the way around.

And the more attitude that you displayed: your level of fun would grow proportionately.

Now if I knew I was wrong, if I KNEW I was out of line and gave him reason -- a RIGHT -- to say it? Well, I'd shut up.

In a confrontation with the cops that I know, you wouldn't be the arbiter of whether or not he had a reason.

I grew up in the South Bronx, amigo.

I've been there. It's a great vacation spot. Friendly natives.

They stood in the middle of trash piles by the side of the interstate. Long beards, and wearing old overcoats. Watching the traffic zoom past.

A wonderful spot to take the kids!

I've spent time in the Combat Zone in downtown Boston -- back in the days when the Combat Zone was the Combat Zone.

I've spent time in downtown LA and in Seattle.

Amazing places with amazing people living there. Especially Seattle.

Punks and bums. And weird cultists of every stripe. Weird.

Downtown Vancouver was interestin' for a Southern boy like me, too.

I've lived and worked in many places.

Contract engineering.

*Hmmm. I suppose. But I'm not sure how the analogy applies to Render, its threads and how we're discussing them here.

Are you saying Render's a cop, the, for lack of a better word, complainers are bullies and when Render exerts authority, you get a lot of whining?*

Not exactly.

First off, I wouldn't use the generic term 'complainer' -- Due to the fact that there are perfectly legitimate complaints that people might have at times.

Now, the term 'chronic complainer' or 'whiner' might apply in some cases. But not just the plain vanilla appellation 'complainer'.

No......for 'bully' I'd use the term 'bully'. If you'd like an alternative, then 'jerk' will do.

In public places (such as businesses and forums) these days, it's necessary for the management to keep a lid on things.

Otherwise, the inmates will quickly take over the asylum.

He with the BIGGEST attitude wins. And he that shouts the loudest wins the argument.

That's no way to run a website.

That is, if the site owner wishes to appeal to the widest customer base possible. And not to the Saturday Night Fights crowd alone.

The Saturday Night Fights crowd has a way of driving off a lot of other people. People with money to spend.

There's no percentage for a website owner in allowing the SNF crowd to run their forums for them. Because that's what they'll do, if they are given the opportunity.

A wise business owner sees the need for attracting a lot of customers. Not a need for catering to the "I Want! I Want! I Want!" demands of a few extremely vocal individuals.

Individuals who comprise far less than 1% of the website's overall membership. Sure, they can make a lot of noise -- a WHOLE LOTTA noise -- but, in reality, they don't have anything like the huge following that they want to believe that they do.

The talent to make outraged noises doesn't confer a veto over the realities of the situation.

And the reality is -- and remains (in spite of all of the noise to the contrary):

Renderosity and DAZ are far and away the most successful websites in Poserdom. Bar none.

It's always a high point for the ridiculous to see the administrations that run those ultra-successful websites repeatedly told that they have no idea what they are doing.

Nothing against other websites, mind you.

Each has to tailor things in such a way as to appeal to it's own target demographic.

At Renderosity, they are attempting to appeal to a wider audience than some others.

And thus build a bigger business.

And get richer. Which is what we would all like to do, right?

Maybe, instead of a forum-wide effort to police "off-topic" threads, enforcement efforts directed at the trolls as individuals would be more effective.... They said that was the rule with the old OT if I am not mistaken hence the infamous "bannings".

enforcement efforts directed at the trolls as individuals would be more effective....

Not a bad idea -- but they'd need to have a 24/7 moderator staff in an OT-type forum to do this. And that was one of their reasons for shutting down the Den.

hence the infamous "bannings"

From the staff's point of view, it's easier for them this way.

Fewer heated threads = less need to ban people.

It's the path of least resistance.

trolls as individuals

Here's where another problem comes in........

One person's 'troll' is somebody else's 'passionate advocate'. Or 'staunch defender'. Or 'freedom fighter'.

Once again: the path of least resistance.

This way, they don't have to pick and choose over who is a 'troll', and who isn't.

In addition to which:

The term 'troll' occasionally gets wrongly applied to individuals who are a little too good at making their point.

If you can't beat 'em, then call 'em a troll.

An actual 'troll' cares nothing about the things that they are saying. They just make themselves inflammatory in order to get a reaction out of others.

rdonovan: "... it's interesting how the same half a dozen or so names keep jumping out - posters whose posts, out of ignorance or malice, seem intended to cause discord." Can't say I've noticed that. But I can't say I'd be surprised either. It probably leans towards why someone in authority might have a tighter rein on certain threads. kmw

XENOPHONZ: "You are to be commended."

Thank you for the compliment. But let's face it, being combative (i.e., attacking a Mod for closing a thread) isn't the way to go. I'd prefer to PM that Mod directly. I don't like fighting in the street. I'd rather go back in the alley.

XENOPHONZ: "I don't know how they grow the cops up in NYC, but if you were to address a cop where I live that way -- you'd be in for a bad night. In a bad place. With really bad people for company."

Well, I can't say it'd be different in New York...

Let's put it in perspective tho. I'm the most even-tempered, patient person you're ever going to meet. I'm the one most likely to stand there a good twenty minutes waiting for you to do something you said you'd do thirty minutes ago. But when I do pop, it's a done deal.

Would I verbally insult a cop? Yes. But understand said cop would've pushed me to a limit that I'd be unable to return from. I don't jump in people's faces at the drop of a dime. Badge or otherwise. But once I've lost my temper, it's over. And I've never been one to bitch about the consequences of my action. I'd simply have to suck up and deal with what comes next...

XENOPHONZ: "There's no percentage for a website owner in allowing the SNF crowd to run their forums for them. Because that's what they'll do, if they are given the opportunity."

Agreed. But as I state in an earlier post here, I think threads have been shut down because of topic, not behavior. And as rdonovan hints, maybe because of WHOM was involved.

XENOPHONZ: "...but, in reality, they don't have anything like the huge following that they want to believe that they do."

Well, that's true of almost any zealot, isn't it? People who scream on behalf of the masses.

XENOPHONZ: "It's always a high point for the ridiculous to see the administrations that run those ultra-successful websites repeatedly told that they have no idea what they are doing."

Again, that's human nature. Walk thru most business environments, move down the ladder and the attitude about the incompetence of the people above increases exponentially, doesn't it? There will always be a part of us that resents the power in others (i.e., MODs who can close threads) and the belief we could do a better job.

XENOPHONZ: "And get richer.

Which is what we would all like to do, right?"

Where do I sign up?

kmw

kmw --

Once again, you're being too reasonable.

If all OT forum participants were to post in the intelligent manner that you've been posting, then mods wouldn't be necessary.

We agree on pretty much every point that you've listed.

But it's also possible to disagree without throwing vitriol in the process.

And it's also possible to arrive at similar conclusions.........

I don't particularly like the total ban on OT threads.

But I follow the administration's reasons for the ban. So I cut them some slack on the issue. In addition to which -- it's no biggie to me.

If I want a 'screaming fight fix', then I can always watch an episode of Jerry Springer.

*XENOPHONZ: "And get richer.

Which is what we would all like to do, right?"

Where do I sign up?*

If you find out, then please IM me with the information.

;)

XENOPHONZ: "And get richer. Which is what we would all like to do, right?" Where do I sign up? If you find out, then please IM me with the information." Oh to hell with the IMs, my friend. We'll get on the train and go together! kmw

@ The X,and Kmw... Have You noticed that MOST of these "Semi-off topic threads" generated less vitriol then 1 year ago? BTW, I love that word! Oh Yeah, I am using V3, and Steph MAX!<--A kick-ars model with custom morphs giving the "Hammer-joweled" Steph a more femm-look!