half-left side

Cath there is a little white ball in the way, I can't see very well :) LOL

ahaahah

ok I get serious now...and try to read carefully so I can understand correctly everything.This is all very interesting....

Message edited on: 06/17/2005 04:53

The image in post # 50 reminds me of this lil' scene: *** *** *** Doctor: I have good news and bad news. Patient: Yeah? Doctor: the good news is that you have a sperm count of "one". Patient: How's that GOOD news?! Doctor: The bad news is that it's the size of a football and it wants to get out now! *** *** *** Sincerely, Bill

Cath - your image in post 52 demonstrates my point EXACTLY! The sphere is illuminated white from the front, yet is white in the middle of the background. The same thing happened in #51. the whole thing is 180 degrees out.

Well, Since all the HDRI Gurus are here, plz help me with a small problem I can't solve. All the light probes I have, don't map around into a perfect sphere. The top and the bottom of the environ don't fit. So, how do I make a perfect spherical environ using my light probes, that ain't blnk at the top and the bottom. (get ref on sphere, see to and bottom of sphere) Help

Here's my attempt at showing the problem....Face off can take it from here!

PAUL and what? the front in in the front where it have to be the right is on the right and left on the left, when you turn it 180 it will dark behind and with red and blue tones the FRONT mean the light is on the front and the rear mean the ight will be on back.... if you create a Light Pobe ANGULAR MAP it is the oposity to the ground, and because I used panoramic image on the first renders the twilight made the wrong illusion for the tutorial. The Angular Map is nothing else as 360 degree Light Projector and nothing more ... AMEN ashish_s_india I am working on a freebie, excellent one with so funny mapping that it will take you 2 min to map it with your own sky maps.. need some days to finish everything before my b-day including also texture freebie for ! A.Maximus with some nice skin shaders... yea I am working on too... we go to make a HUGE 3D party next weekend !!!! lol I am not kidding

dagmath the one mistake I did was to cut the image for the background from the middle, other as this was everything perfect..... now I see the rest is perfect, that why I hate bakgrounds. Better to use the panoramic image direct on the hemisphere sky-dome and no problems.

"All the light probes I have, don't map around into a perfect sphere. The top and the bottom of the environ don't fit. So, how do I make a perfect spherical environ using my light probes, that ain't blnk at the top and the bottom." That's because you're probably using a lightprobe that was created with a mirrored ball. These won't contain all the environment in them when unwrapped... there's going to be a certain percentage that's left out. You need to get good HDR images that were created using a highend 360 degree camera, preferrably in longitude/latitude (environment mapped) format. Either that, or unwrap the probe to longitude/latitude in HDRshop, and then save it as a bmp or tiff, and edit it in an image editor (fill in the empty areas with the clone brush) to use as your spherical environment.

ok use this for the tutorial if you like and turn the scene left 180 by the yOrbit of the Aux camera and you get the same as above without any mistakes.

Thank you so much Cath for this tut ! Cant wait to try it out ;)

Please use the first Angular Map I made for the sky is important other it will not working again....

:)

Cath, that map look suspiciously like it's been rotated 180 degrees! OK, that's half the problem solved. Now you just need to mirror it and we are there.

yes mirror the panoramic background and it perfect100% I saw this just before your post, I am just to tired have to break out for a moment. The problem I show was on the background... I did this at home good , that why I had not problems at all, my scene was rotated 180 degree I just save I go next week to make new Angular maps with a Real Light Probe for sky sun and diffuse, I just ordered system to doing it... it will be much fun to create new REAL scenes for poser6 users!!!!

I'm bookmarking this thread.

ditto..

so the background is flipped 180? I thought it was stationary. okay I'm turned around again...is that 720? Have we come full circle yet? (some days I do believe that I have become the dumbest man on the planet)

MC flip the image from the post # 61 horizontally to your left and everything is solved the rest as from post # 64

Interesting.

Thank you Cath, every day we learn something new... Learning by doing :D Cath you definitely need reopen your own forum, we speak already about it; to have the full control ;) Mazak

Hugs! Dag

Why is it, I never see: Angle Start Angle End Angle Expo Image Resolution IBL contrast ....be used.

Attached Link: The Day of The Dragon

:) click the link above

Flipping wont change the fact the light comes from a precieved FRONT angle , only the angle. It will actually destroy the specular , reflection and precieved radiosity. I am showing a pic of the map facing normal. Please note the edges of the sphere. I'll post a flipped pic next and you will see that it ruins the lights effect to match the background. reflect spec , radiosity ect. I'm done hope some one see's the light LOL The rabbit

FLIPPED flipped map doesnt complement the background , reflect or spec but combines. Wont see this unless you use a bright map like say a forest where now the greens and browns will die on the reflect and spec. Try it and see.

Wow. Bookmark!

Thank you Mec4D for showing this. :o)

jrabbit, doesn't look like anything was flipped there. Cath, it's a bit hard to tell, but the mini-tutorial still doesn't look right. The reference image needs to be flipped. I think it would also be good to explain that this needs to be done (and the image needs rotating 180degree) in the tutorial instructions, since although I can see you've rotated the background 180 degrees, there are no instructions to do it, and it would be easy for people to miss. I guess a reminder too....I posted a tutorial along similar lines 2 days ago, and it's includes a free python script to do most of this for you! If you are going to the trouble of running HDRShop for image manipulation anyway, it's quicker, easier and more accurate to let the python script do all the work for you in Poser than to do it all by hand (as you've described here).

ok, i want to try to verify my understanding of this and blend this tutorial with pauls (face_offs). why blend? because i really like terragen (there's a tutorial for making full 360 cubes and panos with it) and it's easier for me to fake a quick panorama than it is for me to make a mirror ball set up. so, basically, paul was right, which makes sense from the above renders - especially the one using infinity cove. objects look lit from the front, but have a background showing back lighting. so here's what i'm thinking in terms of basic steps. 1. Make panorama with environment renderer, camera or even image editor. 2. Use HDRShop to make the panorama into an Angular map/Lightprobe. 3. Use face_off's script to set up scene. Use notes from both tutorials for tweaking. (by the way, i can't get to face_off's tutorial right now - it's timing out trying to get to the server. someone let me know if they do or don't have problems. 4. Make a background using the ends of the pano (grey in dagmath's image). Combine them such that the rightmost piece is on the left and the leftmost piece is on the right and the join (their ends) are in the middle. This requires horizontally flipping the leftmost piece. That's just my present understanding. Let me know how accurate that is. And I just want to say kudos and thanks to both of you for taking time and effort to help the rest of us Poser peasants advance ourselves. Your works (and notably maxxxmodelz's) show that Poser can be more than a toy or a plastic/airbrush pinup factory.

BM

Will be anybody understand anything from this mess? it is hard to follow I think, I am going set my tutorial on separate paper, it was not finished here because I don't say anything about the SUN light... I am going to do this as I do for my last 2 months with my own idea, my images in my gallery speak for that self ... I don't want to see this as an competition with face_off tut what is fine too.... and as always the final image say more that 1000 words...

LOL Paul are you serious ? you cant see the difference of highlights on the sphere ? The fliped envirionment map causes the highlights to blend LOL just look both edges are now purple !!! The render above it all the colors are where they should be. If you dont think I actually fliped the light map ? maybe I'm faking it? LOL why bother? TRY IT. Try loading the test rigs exactly as they present. You will see. By the way caths map of the light probe , because it uses red yellow and blue seems brighter on the yellow and red directions. blue is colder red hotter. making an illusion the light is stonger in the red and yellow directions. as seen in #40. And further the yellow Front section is a warm color so the center in all directions is bright ! :)) You know dosch sells a hdri cd , with matching back grounds . I've been using them in lightwave for ten years , you dont flip the maps you rotate the model HDRI light never moves , but as you rotate the model it appears the light has changed. Some one said it above and they where right .... find the matching spot using numbered grids. Basically we have to accept that this is FAKE light made by software , histograms generated by light maps , and programming code. And live with how it actually applies and how to make the best illusion from it. I am certain flipping the map is wrong but if you cant see it kill the specular , reflect , radiosity ect so be it. look what flipping the map did to the real skin shader on the girl between post 76 correct and 77 fliped incorrect. Cath your original idea works better than flipping because as my very last picture shows the light hitting the ball mixes with the reflection on the background and makes mud of the highlights (PURPLE EDGES). thats all wrong. look the orange on your lattitude chart is yellow now , the skin has lost it reds ect. Paul you of any one should see that clearly. By the way dont see a mention for the fact that flipping the map still doesnt stop the light from comming from the front. only shifts it from left to right. To actually make the light come from behind we need a black centered light map , with bright edges. But now it wont match the environment. so easy to prove. we are leaning so much. Thanks. The Rabbit

"To actually make the light come from behind we need a black centered light map , with bright edges." That's the point. The background image shows the sun behind the object, or in some cases, people. What we see is an object lit from the front. That's why you can't just take the middle of your pano and put it in back of your scene - it's actually lighting the front of your scene. That's why you need to put what goes in the back behind the main object. This is the sides of the pano and the edges of the problight. Think of the pano as actually being in a ring around the object, casting light. The middle is directly in front of the object, and the edges meet behind it. So it's a 180 degree shift along the pano. But you're turning. So it's a mirror image - the right is now on the left and the left is on the right. At least, that's my understanding.

and i'm not thinking of these tutorials as competing, but completely complementary. your images are beautiful and incredibly realistic. i think i get this tutorial (though i'm not sure), and i'm truly appreciative of all the work you put in to actually share what you learned, which is quite selfless. i think everyone here appreciates what you and face_off do, and benefit a good deal from your conversations.

oh, and i can get to face_off's tutorial now. i hadn't been able to look at it as closely before - so i can see how different the approaches are now. both seem excellent. i'm saving both to my hard drive.

jrabbit - I'm looking at your posts 76 and 77.

The theory is....to get the background to match your ibl lighting, you need to a) rotate your Poser sene lighting 180 degrees around the y axis AND b) flip the background image in the x axis (ie. mirror it). There are a number of ways to do this.

1. One way is to use my python script.

2. The other way is to do this manually in HDRShop: Load the mirrorball image. Take the middle as the background image and flip it in the X-Axis (ie. mirror). Take the original mirrorball, Convert to lat/long, pan 180 degrees (as Cath did in 64), convert back to mirrorball and save for use as the IBL image.

3. An even easier way it to setup IBL in Poser 6, rotate your whole scene 180 degrees in the Y Axis (so the camera is looking from behind), then use a flipped version of the middle of the IBL as your Poser background.

Any of these methods should work!

This was covered in my tutorial from a couple of days ago, but as I use a python script to do it (method 1), I clearly didn't explain it in enough detail, and should have provided much more detail - which I apoligise for.

Now, back to your images....the background is the same in both post 76 and 77. Thus my comment "jrabbit, doesn't look like anything was flipped there". But you are right - the highlights HAVE been flipped, which escaped my notice (since I was looked for a background flip) - my mistake. But looking again - both renders are incorrect. You've got WHITE as the FRONT color showing in the ball, but white is also at the centre of your background. The centre of your background should be grey. I think that having reflections on that sphere is confusing you. Turn them off and just have diffuse (which is what I did in post 14 to highlight the problem).

This is incredibly simple once the penny drops, you just need the think outside the square (sphere???) in order to get the concept.

Message edited on: 06/17/2005 23:03

~bookmark~

Paul said, "my mistake. But looking again - both renders are incorrect. You've got WHITE as the FRONT color showing in the ball, but white is also at the centre of your background. The centre of your background should be grey." where would this gray come from in the center of the background (caths lattitude map) which is clearly white ? Makes no sense . The outer edges of the angular map (gray)represent rear .... so if the light is working correctly and we are facing a white section of a backdrop why would it turn gray ? Or for that matter why would you want your whites to turn gray ? thats silly. No matter what direction the spheres center will face you , and be white because as you rotate it its center becomes what you face. IBL center = white on this particular test map so only from the top veiw can you see gray on back , top center white , yellow ring , left and rights reds and blues , base green. IBL 3 dimensionally lights is assigned colors to each grid and the direction on object is set relative by software. we want color continuity from forground to back , left to right top to bottom , on reflect , spec , and precieved radiosity to know our light rig is correct. Of course the center of the sphere is white, its a white sphere that the IBL map is projecting its color values onto it. just as the IBL map must also project matching color values onto the color grid back ground(lattitude map). left and right of sphere and girl , top and bottom ect. Also white on the IBL color map represents center (all centers). either way if you flip the IBL map in the light node or conversly the background map(equals same effect) you create an out of phase projection. Very easy to see in the 2 renders. Actually using these maps really makes it clearer than using dark horizion IBL maps and backgrounds where the color values are so low the spec , diffuse , reflect and radiosity cannot be gauged. By flipping you create a new problem that you ask to hide by turning off reflection , but that can still be precieved on the edges by diffuse and radiosity effect combine by reversed image and image based light. Just like mixing opposed color paints. Very simply by flipping... the red on the IBL light now projects on the green side and the green on the IBL light projects on the red side of the back ground , causing color mismatch as can easly be seen in 76-77. either way by flipping the IBL map or the back ground (lattitude map) Thanks.

jrabbit, having a little bit of trouble following you line of thought.... "where would this gray come from in the center of the background (caths lattitude map) which is clearly white ?" You haven't indicated which IBL image you are using, so I assumed you are using the one in post 3 - which has grey as the BACK illunimation color. That is where the grey comes from! "Makes no sense . The outer edges of the angular map (gray)represent rear .... so if the light is working correctly and we are facing a white section of a backdrop why would it turn gray ? Or for that matter why would you want your whites to turn gray ? thats silly." OK, you stand with your back to a red wall. Now have a friend stand in front of you (facing you and the red wall). They will not see you illunimated by red, they will see you illunimated by whatever light there is behind them. Now covert that scenerio to use the map in post 3. FRONT = white. Therefore, the back of your friend, and the FRONT of you would be illuminated WHITE. And your rear, and you friends FRONT would be illuminated GREY (being the BACK color of the IBL). So it is wrong to use the IBL in it's current form as the background (ie. what your friend sees behind you). In reality your friend would see GREY behind you...which is....the BACK of the IBL in post 3. Therefore, the IBL needs rotating 180 degrees before you use it as the background. But just doing tha5t isn't enough, because then left and right are wrong, so you flip the background image too. "No matter what direction the spheres center will face you , and be white because as you rotate it its center becomes what you face" The IBL lighting is fixed in Poser World space - so if you rotate the camera 180 degrees, you will view the lighting from behind. So if you place the IBL from post 3 as an IBL, at a camera Y rotation of 0 degrees, the sphere will have white at the front. But rotate the camera 180 degrees, and the sphere will have black in the middle. And just to prove it - see attached renders - IBL lighting only. Top image with camera at 0 y rot. Bottom image with 180 degrees rot. "Also white on the IBL color map represents center (all centers)." Errrrr, no. White in the middle of the map represents light coming from the direction of the camera when the camera is not rotated on any of it axis. "either way if you flip the IBL map in the light node or conversly the background map(equals same effect) you create an out of phase projection" No, they do NOT give the same effect! Flipping the IBL map in it's mirrorball mode does nothing constructive (other than put ground light above, and sky light below). Flipping the background however takes you half way to the correct solution. Maybe it needs to be spelled out again..... - Flip the Bachkground (not the IBL image) - Rotate the scene lighting (not the background) using one of the 3 methods I described in my previous post. "By flipping you create a new problem that you ask to hide by turning off reflection " At what point did reflections come into this? Bring reflections into the equation is just giong to confuse you even more. Get the basics right first, then take it from there. However, if you want correct reflections from the environment, you need to add a skydome, and paste the (adjusted in HDRShop) IBL image into the ambient channel of the dome, and use a square for your background (pasted with the flipped background image). "Very simply by flipping... the red on the IBL light now projects on the green side and the green on the IBL light projects on the red side of the back ground " jrabbit, you are flipping the IBL image!!!! At no point in this entire thread has anyone indicated to flip the IBL image.

LOL LOL yeh well I fliped both to exparement each seperately of course to test render. They come out the same either way... try it dont just scold me because I dare to see the effect. Who cares what wasnt said where testing all ideas , dont we all wanna know whats bull and what works ? :) And its obvious after testing flipping either does not change several issues but creates new ones. all it does is reposition light from left to right or right to left NOT front to back. post 48 I clearly showed what IBL map I used. jimmny crickits. Humm somethings amiss Paul. My test rig is very basic No tricks or secret , just infinity cove with caths lattitude map diagram on it and on IBL light with her IBL light diagram pluged in as the light map. My results are not yours as we can see. posts 40, 42 ,43 ,76 , and 77 are just the angular map in post 49 for the IBL, and caths lattitude map on the back drop. Very simple test rig. If the light matches the backdrop colors will not conflict but be correct and sphere will behave as light map dictates. if I flip the back ground or the IBL (doesnt matter same result)you get the effect that seperates 76 from 77 ... Try it dont just say sure.. LOL than you'll see the whole scoop. My point is for me that caths Idea works fine for her ...she built around how poser behaves. but you find flaw and seek to push your script. But I test your idea against hers and find a new flaw thats worse in color effect. That you dont seem to see or address. If you flip back ground light is out of phase. LOL "At what point did reflections come into this? Bring reflections into the equation is just giong to confuse you even more. Get the basics right first, then take it from there." At the title realizm . If I stand against a brick wall and have a white shirt on with my hand out. A ping pong ball in it and you face me and the wall the ball is white still LOL the edges are colored by my hand both by reflection and radiosity. If on the left is blue light the right red bottom green top yellow the edges of the ball pick up the colors. just as post 76 I got what your saying Paul thanks. Maybe slightly smarter and experianced than you think. Maybe Hummm your not seeing the problem because your focus is on your idea and not what my rig shows. I honestly would Love for Cath to finish her tut ... Reminds me of eki's days and lightwave. He and Cath seem on the same flow ... know how the software behaves and trick the camera for top realizm.Poser 6 does rock ! Sorry Cath to disrupt. Night all. Jrabbit

"But I test your idea against hers and find a new flaw thats worse in color effect. That you dont seem to see or address." jrabbit, in which msg did you try out the instructions from post 88?

O.K. Paul , here is a render as per your method. As you can see it does make it as if the light comes from the side like I have said 5 times now. Not the back. And as I keep telling you the color of the light becomes out of phase now with the background. Making the backgroung colors mud and destroying proper highlights spec ect. Caths chart of IBL is a "front" light set because the center of the chart = white. You know this already but some dont so they dont understand the differance. So it works perfectly to show how IBL complements the back ground and all is as it should be with face front light. That is what I have been showing. For a front lit scene Cath is 100% correct. In post 57 we are shown why we think we need your tut and the problem with a cloudy but seemingly sun lit back ground. Opps caths IBL map fails so some say. There are several ways to fix the problem as well as a correct explination why it fails. But I dont think Cath was done before she got interupted. Your method on a glance looks good but in fact is totally wrong. You forget or ignore that IBL contains color values and is additive in effect to color. And so it falls apart in serious work. There are several correct and better ways to keep the light in phase on all components and create the illusion of light from behind. The most professional is to make the IBL map from the 180 degree opposite section on the panoramic back ground image because it contains the right light data (color components and light values) for the back light effect. If it where an actual pano with the sun showing at one point. But this is not always possible as in cloudy pano's where we have several point lights breaking cloud that will cause that front highlight you hate so much. Thats when a second IBL back light can correct(dark centered IBL). No flipping no rotating no scripts needed. IBL, image based lighting favours front light for detail. As the IBL data is gathered from the direction the IBL was taken in not the back ! its a light probe not a dark probe LOL :) this is why rotating and flipping fail in detail color and light info , its a bad fake. For example the photo I showed in post 90 would make a great IBL for front of that "scene" but 5 feet behind me 180 degrees is a big blue wall. The reflection of the house can be seen on the sphere. If we rotate and flip that deal it wont mimic the real environment nor will the color and light data work properly because this front image has taken even unseen data into itself. I really would like Cath to finish HER TUT , caths way. But because you brought up your idea I cannot resist but point out its main flaw as to realizm and why its wrong. Try a jungle scene back ground with sun behind using your method with just a sphere on the ground . This is not yours or my thread or the place for us to banter. And I don't want to continue to trample Caths thread as we are being rude. If you want to move this to another new thread I will certainly as time permits provide more clear detail. We can rant and chant for 500 pages more. Jrabbit

Jrabbit, the lighting on the girl matches the background correctly....so you are almost there. I'm currious as to why the ball is white at the front, and why the light on the ball doesn't match the girl. I can only assume that it's a ray-traced reflection????? Maybe it would be easier if you emailed the scene to me - at XXXXXX and I can find out why. [edit: email removed for spam reasons. jrabbit - still waiting on that scene]

Just a little something with Apollo, using the setup at the start of the thread. Looking forward to the full tutorial, when it's time to come forth presents itself :-)

Message edited on: 06/28/2005 03:12

larger renders

Camrea rotation at X2 Y225

back shot, only the camera moves, not Apollo's axis

This is from the x cam, but further back & showing more of the background...what there is of it ;-)