The member "Wagner" has been banned for hacking the Renderosity site. This falls under the Terms of Use section of "maliciously subverting the normal operations of the features of this Site". Wagner is an admin at Renderotica and this is the second incident of this nature originating from that site. His efforts were detected when he set off a trip-wire designed to detect unauthorized entry into the site. Security has been tightened to avoid future problems of this nature. FYI, Tim

Has Renderotica been notified...and if so, what do they intend to do to prevent future hacking of this site by their personel? Are measures being taken to discourage Admins from Renderotica or any other site from such illegal activities in the future?

I didn't SEE this, no, really I didn't, somebody please pinch me and wake me? :-0

Lots of trip-wires, illusions ;-) Well, if the 'rotica staff wasn't notified I'm sure they know by now. -JH.

Puleeeese! Sshhhhhh! I am trying to SLEEEP here! :-0 "zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"

Interesting.

zzzzzzzzz,.....huh? Nono, it's not really, it's just a harmless nightmare, please ignore. (teach me to fall asleep here, grumble)

I'm sure the know by now Jeff...I was just wondering if Tim has approached them and to discuss this violation and it's implications...and to get assurances from them as to what they intend to do to prevent their Admin's from doing this again. I guess I feel like they out to be posting some sort of statement here about this incident with an explanation and assurances from them that they have removed this "Wagner" person from their staff and are co-operating with Tim in dealing with this.

Wagner was only acting as himself and found a security hole in the software running this site. The implication that the rest of the staff had any knowledge or advocated this action is neither accurate nor advisable considering the coming changes. As for who is or is not an admin at other sites - would it be an issue if anyone who read the documentation on the EZ software had found this hole? Who is staff or member at any site is not an issue.. unless it is your intention to further "bad blood" and keep the divisions growing. As for preventing people from doing anything - if it had been brought up before hand I would have suggested letting people know they had a hole, but he never mentioned it till after the fact. And just for those who will bring up the fact I once said I wouldn't be back - I will be when an entire group of people are being branded for something they had no prior knowledge of. That's called instigation and makes for more hositility. It's not fair to do and unprofessional to say the least.

Ikyoto, The security problems at Renderotica have been around for months, spilling out to this site and the 3D Commune. Are you saying no one thought to question the admin staff there? It's been known for a long time the problems originated with someone on the Renderotica admin staff. The attack on my account here was done using my old Renderotica password. I have a hard time believing that no one there knew about it. -JH.

The security hole had nothing to do with the EASE language. So, no, you wouldn't find it by reading the documentation on the EASE Server. To take advantage of this security hole, the user had to have knowledge of the admin side of the software that runs Renderosity or Renderotica and some of the URL's used there.

Tim, could you please explain us how do you know who's an admin at Renderotica and who isn't?

June, The Renderotica Admin Staff is secret? That just makes things worse doesn't it? What are you afraid of? I think I know. -JH.

That's the kind of reply I was expecting. Thanks, Jeff...

"Wagner whispers to you: Well, I'm admin at renderotica at the moment." Because he told me he was. Along with many other things when we were in the chat room talking, where he admitted to the whole incident.

Thanks Jeff. The inuendo is just about as deep as it can get. If you have direct acusations to make, then do so. Please - it would be nice to put the cards on the table. I would really like that for once. Snide remarks are what I expect from punks and small timers, not professionals and adults. Afraid? Of what? At what point do you think ANY of this is worth loosing any sleep over? I started working with these sites to try and help keep sites running and so people could have a place to do stuff - Screw the politics and BS. Either speak straight or stop stirring paranoia up. It ony makes things worse. The minute it starts getting actionable because you or anyone else is making groundless accusations I stop playing. I would love to simpley have a straight forward conversation and without all these little snipes you keep making.

"The minute it starts getting actionable because you or anyone else is making groundless accusations I stop playing." Ikyoto, it's already "actionable" if we so choose.

Oh, BTW Jeff... Yes, I'm mod at Renderotica, as well as member of Renderosity (since a long time) and 3D Commune.

Great - then stop playing around and start issing summons and we can all get it over with! At some point you have to show damages and monetary loss and have tracable evidence as to who did what. And it all goes public in a court in Michigan. I would welcome that - seriously. Show some evidence i a court of law that someone has caused you finanical harm and be ready to face counter suits - that's the way this is all headed.

Hey, you can keep your staff secret if you want to, it's not my problem. People know the security problem originates with your staff and I guess you're afraid of reprisals. It's your mess, clean it up. Clear enough? It's a matter of ethics; if someone's front door is unlocked you don't walk into their house just to point it out. -JH.

Now, children, play nice or we'll take away your sandbox... ;-) (Sorry, couldn't resist. Probably should have TRIED)

June, Yeah I know you're an admin there. I'm a member and read the posts.

You only have to prove monetary damages in a civil court Ikyoto. Breaking into computer systems is a criminal act.

CharlieBrown, you 're a wise person... Sad you're not admin here...

Then press charges! Name people and show evidence in a court! Show where anyone did a crimminal act and stop these games! I know the laws on these matters up to the federal level. If you have a case then present it and stop posting inuendo that can be seen as slander if someone really gets stupid. Letting ANYONE post things that implicate things if there is a crimminal act can have serious repercussions. Either let it go or take action. Anything else is just damaging to the reputaions of people and corporate entities tied to them.

Hello Everyone, First allow me to state that the reason Ed and I removed ourselves from the 3D Commune website was done as a means to bring about an end to allot of the "Us Vs Them" wars that had developed after our ejection from the Renderosity Web Site. We felt that it was important to do this to bring stability and a closure to the "wars" that members found themselves, often times, unwillingly involved in. For the past week, it would seem that this move on mine and Ed's part helped to ease the tension that the Community felt was there and everyone was able to move about freely, without fear of reproach or fear of being pulled into a "war." However, it has come to our attention that Tim Choates, from Edgenet/Bondware inc., would like to keep the fires burning and the war continuing from statements found in his post on Renderosity's News and Team Forum, whereas he states: Quote - "The member "Wagner" has been banned for hacking the Renderosity site. This falls under the Terms of Use section of "maliciously subverting the normal operations of the features of this Site." Wagner is an admin at Renderotica and this is the second incident of this nature originating from that site. His efforts were detected when he set off a trip-wire designed to detect unauthorized entry into the site. Security has been tightened to avoid future problems of this nature." -End Quote. This is CERTAINLY a situation that should be addressed and dealt with, considering that it appears that an Admin from our Renderotica site was involved in this sort of activity. However, I believe that it would've been a situation that could have been resolved before it came to this juncture. Allow me to explain... It became apparent that there was an individual(s) that was hacking onto the 3D Commune site, as many of you would remember, around Christmas of 2000. A situation that we had tried to patch up, not just on our sites, but also on Renderosity. After the holiday's, I had spoke with Tim Choates of Edgenet and informed him of many of the "holes" in their security, be it in EZ Forum source code accessible to certain members, to people using the same passwords on all of the sites. Mr. Choates also confirmed that they had received hacking attempts on their Renderosity site, and though he had an oppertunity to say who the individual was, he failed to do so. At which point this situation could have been resolved two months ago. Even during the past two months, Tim and other staff of Renderosity have "eluded" to the fact that one of the people responsible for the hacking attempts was a staff member of Renderotica. Repeatedly, I had asked for a name so I could deal with the situation, but instead, it furthered their cause to keep the identity of the individual a secret, rather than come out and tell us so that we could deal with it and keep it from getting to this point. So obviously they knew that it was a staff member of Renderotica BEFORE the staff member admitted to their actions (as RCooke states)... so just how did they know? Unless..... Anyway my statement is as follows, take it for what it is worth... These actions were the actions of a single individual, the actions made against Renderosity and it's site was never sanctioned by anyone within the company of Dark Soul Images: Internet Media, inc., or by myself. Neither myself, nor my company, would sanction the acts of computer hacking or espionage, nor support that kind of activity from a member of our staff, NO MATTER, what kind of situation could warrant that sort of behavior. We encourage the owners of Renderosity to seek restitution for any damages they feel were made from the actions of this individual, however, they should only do so from the party responsible for those said actions. Furthermore, we feel that this situation could have been handled in a more professional manner if the owners of the Renderosity Web Site could have provided the information that we requested of them numerous times in the past, but failed to receive, and feel that this kind of public statement is an attempt by Edgenet/Bondware inc., to allege to the members of their site and the members of the Community that we were in someway involved in this sort of behavior. In closing, we feel that the ending for petty rivalry and wars is at hand, not just for the owners of "Poser" Web Sites, but also for the Community and the members that patron these sites. We have made the first step in assuring peace throughout the Community. Are we to be alone in this action??? Sincerely, Jack D. Kammerer, Jr. Dark Soul Images: Internet Media, inc.

Clean up the problem there at Renderotica and everything will be fine. If this matter doesn't concern you at all I can only assume that you had full knowledege of it to begin with and it's a matter of "business as usual" with the Renderotica staff. You talk about laws and evidence more than solving the problem.

(The last post was to Ikyoto)

You tell me who it is and I'll investigate. If you want to instigate a witch hunt, then do it without any help. And assuming anything like that is not very smart. Anyone who would do something mallicious in one place will more than likely do it somewhere else - I don't knowingly work with people like that. Your assumption is pure speculation. I don't make assumptions about people here - I deal directly. I have no hessitations about publically saying I don't like the way Edgenet does business, but I also don't assume Russel is unethical. He's always been fair and helpful. And Ironbear has always been a person who seemd to be a stand up kind of guy... I don't see them as the same sort of person just because they associate with a company I don't trust. Painting everyone in any group the same because one person may have done something is just unreasonable.

It's reassuring to hear Jack's position relative to this incident. My statement was not intended to single out any one company or individual, but rather to underscore the point that we will defend the integrity/security of this site and the privacy of its members as necessary. Our resolution of this matter was mild compared to how it could have been handled through legal methods.

Isn't the name "Wagner" a good place to start?

Jeff, Paul (that is your name, right Ikyoto? If I'm remembering incorrectly, forgive me), I think the two of you really need to step back and take a deep breath, and think about things. You both came into this with a defensive attitude which really seems to just make things worse. Fact: Someone, allegedly an admin at Renderotica, by the sn of Wagner attempted to hack this site. Fact: There are tensions between the sites, primarily due to idiots like this. However, the existence of a person like this Wagner does not mean that everyone - or even ANYONE - else at R'otica is a "bad guy." I can see how the initial statement Tim made could IMPLY this attitude, but I seriously doubt it was intended that way. I can understand how upsetting this can be, and understand how angry you guys are, but directing it at each other will just trigger another site war, something we neither need NOR want, especially during this transition phase going on with R'otica and 3DCommune. Please, just calm down a bit and direct your UNDERSTANDABLE anger and outrage at the guilty party - allegedly Wagner - and not at each other, PLEASE?!?

Thank you CB - point taken.

Moving this one to C&D.

Agree with CB. I can also see how Tim's post could be taken as inflamatory... but, I can also see it as a simple announcement like any of the other dozen or so "So and so has been banned for distributing warez" posts that have popped up periodically. Those are just a breif and straightforward statement of what happened and why, and that's the way this one reads to me also. That's probably also the way it was intended to be read.

zzzzzzzzzz, huh? Soooo, this "Wagner" person is responsible for all my "nightmares?" Is THAT it?? Well, glory be? Don't reckon I know this person at all, and I assume he/she isn't all that fond of their own name, since they seemed to use so "many" others when sending me those lovely messages time after time which in turn caused me such a "happy" memorable time on the forums?? People sure envy me now! ...oh, go back to sleep now....groggy....this rubber hammer keeps bouncing off my head..........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...just a dream....just a dream.........zzzzzzzzzzzz

easy with the allegations pete. your takin' too many hits with that hammer. you yourself spoke on many occasions regarding "witch hunts" careful you don't start one here. Especially when the person themselves are unable to speak for themselves or their intentions.

.......zzzzzzzzzzz....huh? Allegations? No, just a dream. BUT in this dream you's seem to be coming here a might on the defensive of this so called "Wagner" and you's seem kinda worrisome about Tim pointing fingers when all he's doing is stating a concern and a hopeful fix. Might have been better to just say "we'se looking into it" rather than dream up more contraversial barriers and long speeches of "not me"? Just because I am dreaming don't mean I am the maker of my own dream, I usually hope I don't remember the nightmares I have but this one is a dilly........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....

Next topic on the Complaint and Debate forum: The joys of perscription drugs and Lucid Dreaming...

The joys of illict hallucinogens and Lucid Dreaming are even stranger. ;]

...zzzzz....well, ya see what I mean? I'm soo glad I KNOW this is just a dream; I mean, if this were for REAL, wouldn't be so many silly clowns making jokes about a REAL concern, and they certainly wouldn't be soo defensive about their own appearances, they'd be off trying to help clean up this REAL mess and trying to figure out what REALLY happened and making sure it REALLY stops; but, as all nightmares go, this makes very little REAL sense, so that's why this just ain't for REAL, it's just a dream.......zzzzzzzzzzz........oh, incidently, who the heck would need ANY kinda drugs when one can get super HIGH on just the idiosyncrasy in this thread alone......zzzzzzzzzz....snore.......

Building walls and defenses, then pointing fingers back at the staff at Renderosity is the last thing that needs to be done here. Tim's message was meant to be a statement of facts, period...just like the periodic banning statements of others have been. Sometimes, if you really want to heal the wounds and build bridges...you just have to be a bit more humble instead of reactionary for a change. A simple statement of regret for the incident, with assurances that it was done without the knowledge of any of the Renderotica Admins, that the person involved is no longer in a position to do this again, and that you are taking measures to prevent this in the future is all that was really needed here...and would have gone a LONG way to show you respect us and our concern for the protection of our site, and helped gain you considerable respect from the Renderosity members in return.

No comment, posting for notification only.

.....zzzzzzz....groggy...um, this dream is getting kinda crowded now....think I'll go and sleep it off somewhere else.......zzzzzzzzz............

Nice weather if it does'nt rain.

Isn't it? Wonder how long it will last... dryly

Not sure. Like Mark Twain said " Weather is the one thing everyone complains about, but does nothing about"...? Go figure.

Seeing as this is C&D here goes... I've not been involved in any of the "wars" between sites, and really don't want to be now. But, after reading this I just had to come in and get on my soap box. FOR FUCK'S SAKE CALM DOWNNNNN! Nothing is EVER solve by fighting. Think back to Vietnam and the World Wars? Christ, what is it with pride and ego that makes people refuse to give a little. I had my username used in the chat room here about 2 weeks ago which pissed me off no end, but you didn't see me come in here and say a thing, did you? No, because it was dealt with and it went away. Why can't this situation be dealt with - privately - and made to go away. The honest truth is there was post, much like many others recently, claiming a user had been banned. Ok, so it's over. The user is now gone. So what if it was an admin? Does this make a diff? Admins aren't superhuman, alien hybrid or something are they? They ARE supposed to be trustworthy and ethical but every human has their imperfections. Would everyone get their panties in a bunch if I hacked into the site...I don't think so. Because I'm a nobody. There would be a post like this one, a few people would come in and says sucked in Xena and that would be the end of it. Wake up and smell the flowers boys. Let it all go. The past is the past. I love these sites and I'd hate to see anything happen because of one incident that neither side is willing to give a little on. steps down from soapbox, grabs marshmallows and waits for flames to begin

shrug I'm not going to flame you, so doan look at me. Have to disagree on two counts - in the instances you listed, lots was solved by fighting or not fighting, the enslavement and occupation of the south Vietnamese people for one. This isn't fighting though, at least not in the same context as the vietnam conflict, or WWII. This is argument between two sides whose minds aren't going to be changed by rhetoric. A lot of them aren't interested in the actual conflict, they're interested in making propaganda points at the othe guys expense.

Damn, I never thought I'd say it, but Illusions hit the nail on the head... :-) Will all combatants please read and re-read that post before resuming the public floggings? :-) {what is it with pride and ego that makes people refuse to give a little.} Xena, you answered your own question there... Pride and Ego combine to make people refuse to give, even a little... But that's a mighty passifistic post for a Warrior Princess; is this the Kinder, Gentler Xena? :-) RE: Nothing being solved by fighting: Fighting can sometimes prevent a bad situation from becoming WORSE (both World Wars, for example - we'd live in a very different world if Kaiser Wilhelm had conquered and united all of Europe, and if the Axis powers and won WWII, we would probably all be speaking Japanese (IIRC, Hitler would have controlled all of Europe except for Italy, Mexico, possibly South America, and all of Asia except for China and Mongolia, Italy would have run Italy, the Middle East and Africa, and Japan would have probably controlled the entire Pacific, China, and North America). BUt there are many cases where fighting made things WORSE as well, and the constant eruptions between the fora are a definite example.

My intent was to bring attention to the security problems in hopes they would finally be taken care of. Simple notification hasn't worked in the past. I'm a member of Renderotica and I'd like to be able to trust the staff there with my account information. If I can't, I will remove my membership. -JeffH.