"So the system tends to regulate itself. It's called capitalism. And it's the best economic system ever invented by mankind." XENOPHONZ, I totally agree with you, but let's not loose one thing out of site in the 'poserworld'. Compared to the 'real' world a lot more people are buying content they cannot really afford at all, spending much more then they should. Also a lot more people here then in the real world buy stuff they don't need or never end up using. I realize most of us do have an attic or closets at home with stuff we bought and never end up using, but our poser attics and closets are much larger then the ones at home. I would like to feed the people here who are in debt because of spending to much on poser content. And I for sure don't want to feed those who buy and keep on buying and never ending up using it at all.

Compared to the 'real' world a lot more people are buying content they cannot really afford at all, spending much more then they should. Perhaps, but those of us who buy content are doing it by choice. No one is forcing us to do it.

shrug

Poser can be addictive. As well I know.

So can gambling -- and there are many people (and their families) who go without food as a result. That's a big part of the reason why gambling is illegal in many states. Although these days we have a lot of legalized gambling.....it's called the Lottery. And many people that can ill afford to do it spend 100's or 1000's of $$$$$$'s on a pipe dream.

But I can't control what others choose to do with their money -- or with their lives.

If someone else spends too much money on Poser.....then that's their choice.

Unless, of course -- if you wish to propose drafting a law which makes Poser illegal.

;)

"If someone else spends too much money on Poser.....then that's their choice." Yep. I just spent $40 for a 1:6 scale RC car.. do I NEED it? No. Did I drool and HAVE to possess it? YES! I almost also put the 1:6 scale batmobile in my cart as well.. it's $100, and has bad reviews, but it's STILL a 1:6 scale RC Batmobile! Course, find a $100 bill in Lowe's parking lot today made me a little spend happy.. LOL! Talk about being in the right place at the right time.

The bottom line to this topic isn't 'Is content underpriced?'. It's 'What's the customer's perception of content price?' And that, (as we can see from the replies above) will vary from customer to customer. In general, I think most people realise that a large percentage of poser content is a good deal. There are plenty of dud products out there, some fly-by-night merchants, and a few people who try to make a quick buck, then give up when they find out how difficult it actually is. Remember this. If it was easy to make high-quality content, there wouldn't be any merchants at all. We'd all be making our own. Since we aren't, it follows that we have to pay for what we need. Simple logistics. I can't physically build a mercedes, so if I want one, I have to buy it (I wish!). The same goes for poser customers and content. What's important is to buy from merchants you can trust, or stores with a good reputation. Aeilkema goes out of his/her way in every thread to put down DAZ, but DAZ offer every customer a 30-day, no-questions, money-back GUARANTEE. To me, as a customer, that says they stand 100% behind what they sell. Not many companies in either real-world or virtual goods do that. Most of my own products cost $15 - 25. I spend an average of 3 months on each project and they continue to sell for years. I've just done a total rebuild of a product I made 4 years ago (updated it for P5/6 and DS), because it still sells today, and I want it to be up to the mark. I'll continue to put a lot of time and effort into every product becuase I'm in it for the long-haul. I do this for a living, and I don't want customers getting shoddy products. So, as a customer, choose your content well. Read everything you can before you spend money, and if in doubt, ask other users. If you buy junk on impulse, you only have yourself to blame. There are lot of high-quality items out there. Just take the time to make sure you get them. mac

Gareee, don't tell anyone, but I've just spent 149 euro's on a new RC Helicopter (the X-Ufo, very cool!!) and two of those mini rc-cars (to race against my son) a few weeks ago. Did I need it? No, but it's fun anyway. And it will not get me broke. Besides I've got the money, I don't spent it on overpriced poser content. Besides that to me the rc models are worth the money. They're tangible, as an rc-freak, I can see that they're worth the money. A lot of the poser content isn't worth the monay the ask for it at all. As a modeller I can see that a lot of the stuff being sold is overpriced. Oh yes, merchant will cry havoc, telling us how much time was spent modelling and so on. I used to do the same when I was still into professional game modeling. By the way, Poser isn't my hobby at all, I use it on a semi proffesional basis. If I was a hobbiest I wouldn't be able to justify buying half of the poser content I do own. If I would spent all the money I do spent on rc stuff on poser content instead, I wouldn't get far at all. I just don't see how some people can spent 100's of dollars each month on poser content, just because it's their hobby. On the other hand if people really spent that much money on poser content as merchants do claim, why am I not seeing a reflection of that in the poser galleries here and on various other sites? Most of the poser images seriously lack content.... I'm doubting that most merchants even make half of the sales they do claim. If they really sell what they claim they sell, the prices could be dropped without a problem at all. But, that's just my opinion.....

Everyone is entitled to one :) For the record, I've never lied about my sales, and I'm not one to be secretive about them either. And if I make a $1000 a month, it's unlikely I'm going to drop my prices. I do have to feed my kids and pay the rent you know insert raised eyebrow here And if one more person says I need to get a job that pays well, I may scream. I do what I'm good at, and charge bargain basement prices. I hardly think I'm going to go get a job at KFC because it makes a steady income LOL To me, spending any money on rc models is just flat out weird. Same as buying things like sporting paraphernalia. Because it's not my thing, I just don't get it. I also don't buy a lot for Poser anymore, mostly because I can make it myself. I do buy most of the hair models out there and things like 3dwizzy's JeanZ are totally worth every cent. As a modeller I can see that a lot of the stuff being sold is overpriced I hear you say this over and over, but you're always vague on what is too much. So what IS too much for an outfit? $10? $20? Do you really believe that modelling is so easy and worth so little? And if so, why aren't you making your own items and not complaining about the prices?

He's obviously not complaining about the items in your store Xena so why jump his shit? Your prices are excellent. You need not be so touchy about other peoples complaints about high prices when you're not the one who's gouging the market. However, with that being said. For someone with no gallery, no freebies and no store listed in their profile. I find his claims highly suspiscous as well. Making a claim about being a modellor with no proof to back it up pretty much nullifies any complaints made in public around here.

Message edited on: 07/25/2005 18:30

I think xena is irked by the fact that statements like these, with nothing to back them up, are just pointless attacks on merchants in general, with no distinction between honest people and those who turn out crap. Along with obviously biased comments about DAZ (not only in this thread, but quite a few others), gives me the distinct impression that some axe-grinding is being done under the guise of making a valid point. Couple that with the comments about customers being somehow conned into spending their money on poser content instead of feeding their kids (or whatever), leaves me rolling in my seat laughing. Go target fruit-machine manufacturers or casinos, if you're so concerned about that sort of thing. mac

In response to the following: If I would spent all the money I do spent on rc stuff on poser content instead, I wouldn't get far at all. I just don't see how some people can spent 100's of dollars each month on poser content, just because it's their hobby. === I'll just say that when it comes to hobbies, oftentimes people will spend quite a bit of time and/or money. And it's not just Poser stuff. Some people like to collect things (stamps, toys, dolls, whatever). Many collectors will spend quite a bit on their hobby. Some people love video games. Pick up 2 or 3 games in a month, and you're likely spending around $100-$150. Other peole might enjoy painting or sculpting. Art supplies cost money too. (And of course as seen in this thread, some people like playing with RC cars) That's just the nature of people and their hobbies. Some hobbies are cheaper than others, but for the most part it costs money to maintain any hobby.

Exactly Mac ... thanks for putting the right words in my mouth ;) Miz, I hate all merchants being lumped together, because it taints all of us, not just those who actually do the things of which we are being accused. Maybe it's just my little schism in life but it's one of those threads where I just can't help but post LOL I do understand why AntoniaT started this thread though. It's really cutting off the nose to spite the face to have freebies that aren't up to standards, as they are always going to reflect on the store items at a site, especially when they charge so highly. You've got it spot on Gabriel. And hobbies are what keep our brains active. Before getting into Poser I used to do a lot of 'folk' art (which here in Aus means painting things like native flora and fauna, outback scenes, etc on old milk cans and such) and that's one expensive hobby. A single tube of paint costs $7 upwards, and you might need 20-30 different colours for one scene. That of course doesn't include the 'good' brushes and all the other equipment. But when I was doing it all the time I could easily justify the cost and it never seemed like a waste of money.

I've always been of the opinion that no hobby is a waste of money as long as it (1) brings you enjoyment and (2) does not negatively impact other aspects of your life. And mocking or looking down on someone else's hobby because you don't understand it is usually silly because odds are there is someone out there who doesn't "get" your hobby.

My dog once ate my $80 Rembrant Pastels. Poser is cheaper and usually easier to clean up after. (goes back to cleaning up Runtime)

One way I've seen of comparing hobby costs is to price stuff in terms of pints of beer. I've sometimes been up way too late because of Poser, but at least I don't get a hangover.

Well I hope you're not accusing me of lumping all merchants together. I only have problems with the ones who blame their customers for their problems. That's certainly not all merchants. I have the same problem with any business in the real world that treats customer satisfaction as something beneath their notice. Restaurants, stores, what have you. Customer service is important to this consumer. I'm the happy customer of several merchants. Top of my list is Sixus1. I have been quite happy to spend more than $20 for items from merchants all over the place if the model suited my needs and/or my tastes. (Read that as ANYTHING Lost in Space related) My favorite Expensive model I bought right here in 'Rendo's marketplace, the "Spacship L1" Jupiter 2 look alike.

Ya wanna know how much I spend on my hobby, and how cheap I am at the same time?? I bought a set of expensive colored pencils (my favorite medium) back when I was in art school, maybe 1978 or so. $2.25 PER PENCIL! Multiply that but the 200 color set I got, and we're talking $450.00 for friggin colored pencils!! (But they really ARE the best!) I still have the majority of some of them, but many were used up, and never replaced. I also have a $100 air compressor for airbrushing, my airbrush ($250 or so), and you should SEE the stack on unbuilt models I have! I have both the chrome and normal Polar Lights Jupiter II models, many of the other Polar Lights kits, some Star Trek, all the battlestar galactica kits, and my biggest ones ate a 3ft diameter Mars Attacks saucer, and a 3 ft long Seaview from Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, with the nose kit AND the mini flying sub. I easily have over 1000 action figures, and wouldn't be surprised if it's closer to 2000 (the wife also collects them now as well) My poser hobby is probably the least expensive one I have, all told.

Ok my two cents for the merchants out there...

Between Platinum Club pricing and DAZ's giving away base meshes for free - they have devalued the Poser market. As a consumer I'm grateful for the falling prices, but I do feel bad for Poser content developers. It takes a LOT to prep a product for Poser, Poser customers are notoriously lazy and they want their products to be 'click and render'. Geez the Poser community even complains about how FREEBIES are packed - what do you think they're going to expect from a product they are actually paying for? lol

For two years now DAZ has been selling us the same mesh over and over again. Oh yeah it's reshaped, and regrouped and the JPs are tweaked but it's still the same Unimesh-based mesh. Then after they recouped their development costs they release the base mesh for free, making it almost impossible for other figure developers to sell their own figures for what they're actually worth as far as development time is concerned.

Props, hair, clothing textures and skin textures going for $1.99 - why am I going to buy similar products for $10 or more? They can afford to sell products for less then what they're worth because they have other sources of income such as the price of PC membership. Merchants like the ones in this thread can't.

Also the market is saturated. Everybody and their mother is a merchant nowadays. He's a merchant, she's a merchant, wouldn't you like to be a merchant too? lol

Don't blame the customer for being 'spoiled'. My one goal in life is to avoid an argument with my husband over how much I spend on my hobby ;)

Miz, I wasn't referring to you at all, and I don't think xena was. My post was in response to Aeilkema. mac

I just wanted it on record that I don't lump merchants all together. I felt my stance needed clarification after she said: Miz, I hate all merchants being lumped together, because it taints all of us, not just those who actually do the things of which we are being accused.

OK, here's one of the many examples of overpricing (and yes of course it involves DAZ). The new Griffin at DAZ: http://www.daz3d.com/shop.php?op=itemdetails&item=3491&cat=5 Normaly $29,95 on sale 19,95 Gryphon v2 by Sixus1: http://www.contentparadise.com/user/product.php?productid=8952&cat=1325&page=2 Normal every day low pricing $12.00 Guess who's ripping us off again? They actually are pretty close to each other as models, both have slightly different features. What the one lacks the other one has, so both aren't perfect. The merchant at DAZ is clearly not in line with what the pricing really should be. This is why I'm thankfull that some merchants like Sixus1 dare to set low pricing and I will support such merchants as much as I can and so should the community. We don't need to pay DAZ prices at all, we should really boycot them, as I've been doing for quite a while now. Sometimes they have cool stuff I'd love to buy too, but I do refuse tp give them anymore of my hard earned money. Also very often much cheaper alterternatives can be found.

Let's see... Sixus's grifins modeling and texure time.. 2 weeks. Paul's Griffin developement time.. 7 MONTHS. Paul's griffin has geo switching in him to hide the wings, geo switching to convert him into a hippogriff, and instead of one blanket wing surface, researched and modeled the wings based on actual bird wings. Each wing has many MANY friggin parts to them and erc built in to not only move them, but fold them as a proper bird's wings do. I think he spent 2 months alone on th wing design and execution. And each friggin feather is even modeled, transmapped and textured, to give them a more realistic look. I'd compare them to a ferrarri, and a yugo.. yeah the yugo will get you where you want to go, but which would you rather be seen in, and actually drive? Which has more features? This is a perfect example of slamming a brand new poser content creator on his first product. Paul spent months and took feedback from people during the entire time and what they wanted in a figure, and he busted his @$$ trying to get every single thing in the character that people wanted. I would compare the Griff more with the Millenium Dragon, or Curio's Majestic Dragon, both of which sell for LOTS more. I'd say Paul easily has 400 man hours in work on his Griffin, and that means each person who buy him is paying Paul the lordly sum of $.05 an hour for him.

point : the Sixus 1 Gryphon has properly researched wings and Geo Switching as well. as to the ferrari / yugo. which is which in your anology? (I'd drop it since it has no meaning other than to insult one product)

Gareee, since you've made add-ons for Griffin you're obviously biased and very much biased indeed.

You're giving Paul much too much credit and putting down Sixus1 way too much. Also I do doubt that you know Sixus1's modelling time, but even then.... I can spent years on a model and still create crap (now I'm not implying that the Griffin is crap) and you could spent a week on modelling something just brilliant. Besides that, the Griffin was Paul's first creature model, Sixus1 is very experienced in it. When it comes to modeling (of which I hade my share) the first time takes the longest most of the time.

This isn't slamming, it's a fair comparisment, after all I'm not paying for someone's lack of experience, but for the end result.

Imo it is a very fair comparisment, since the models are very close to each other.

Also I don't dare to comapre the Griffin to the Milenium, Dragon at all, that comparisment itself already shows how biased you are. Since you're involved I can imagine you want to keep the price high, means more money to be made for you too.

Message edited on: 07/28/2005 07:18

Time comparisons don't mean a thing in this example either. You're comparing apples and oranges by comparing a 1st time Merchant with an experienced Modeler like Les. So what if it only took Les 2 weeks to churn out what it took a beginner Seven months to accomplish. In the real world, People USUALLY pay the experienced craftsman more. Not Less.

Message edited on: 07/28/2005 07:20

I wasn't intending to slam Les whatsoever. Les has a very distinct style, and carries that vision through well into his characters. His griff is great, and I was an original purchaers, and also have it's upgrade. Paul was striving more though, to have the character based on real world anatomy, stucture and posing. But technically, there is a LOT more going on in Paul's Griffin then Les's As far as model comparison, other then both being a griffin there are a huge number of differences between them. The mesh's muscles are actually based on real world muscle structure, niot just a stylized interperatation. Wing wise, there are 5 main wing componants in Paul's griff, plus 60 or 6 additional wing parts, each controllable for more realistic wings movement. (Paul actually used a number of web resources and a number of rigging methods to try to duplicate a real birds wing movement.) But you'll see whatever you want to see. You rebuild your work a number of times and spend a few extra weeks to accomodate user's wishes, and then get a slap in the face like this, and let's see how well you like it. I've seen the amount of work, and rework Paul has done not because he had to, but because he wanted everyone to have what they wanted in the character. And Miz, How much do you make an hour, just out of curiosity? Would you accept a NICKLE an hour for your work and talent? I'm not going to be lead into slamming the Sixus Griffin, because Les and Reb are good freinds, and they do quality work. Just like there are MANY poser Dragons available, there's plenty of room for more creatures. You can't really compare some of the cheap dragons with some of the expensive ones, and the same holds here. While YOU two may see me as having a vested interest in Paul's work, I see both of you as not even knowing what you are talking about, because you don't own both figures (like I do), and can't fairly compare them. And Mizrael.. you'll but a untextured inaccurate $35 Jupiter II model for $35, but Legendary Griffin for $20 is overpriced??

My first response never made it...so... I am Biased since I created the Griffin. I am not trying to put anyone out of business or rip off customers. What you, Aeilkema, are trying to compare is not really as accurate as you believe. Les has spent long hours and put in a lot of hard work, as I heve mentioned before, He is now in a position to pass his savings on to his customers. I am sorry you are unhappy about the company I choose to broker with, but as I remember, didn't Les also start here? If you don't own my model then you can not make accurate assumptions about it. I have had the development of this project open to the public, in an effort to get feedback and improve the quality. I gave up any advantage by revealing my plans for a realistic folding set of wings. When I propsed a $39.95 price the feedback I got was that this was more than fair. I decided to offer it at a lower price anyway. You have had 7 months of opportunity to give me your opinion and this is the first I hear that $19.47 is a high price. Don't make this a personal attack because you do not know me. Since you have all this experience in modelling, I am interested to know what programs you have(fully licenced ones.) that are so inexpensive to justify your lower prices. I am selling to those who would like variety and creative freedom. You have no idea the investments I've made and bottom line is Les makes about $10-$11 dollars for each of his sales. Me $9.98. I don't do this to get rich but because I like doing. If my price is too high for you, look elsewhere but don't make personal attacks. You are entitled to your opinions but I feel you are trying to make this focus a comparrison between my model and Sixus1's. Thats like comparing the Girl with HER. Two different animals entirely. Make a model from start to finish then come back and tell us all, how I am ripping people off! You don't like DAZ, fine...but don't assume for an instant you know me.

Well, if you're making that little of it, you obviously have choosen the wrong channel to present your model through. By the way I wasn't attacking you personally, I was asked to show an example and yours is relevant. Could have chosen many others too.

By the way you want models? Just follow the link, until you see Commander Josh (fist runner up in the contest). Download 1 or 2 of the levels and you'll see more then enough models created by me. Not poser stuff, all low poly models for game design. This was a private fun thing I did when I was still in game design. Comparing what I made on one game only, or a set of models for a game, to what you make on one model, you have nothing at all to complain. I didn't even make $10 per completed game or set of models...... But I never complained and made enough money through the years in game design.

Um ... what link? 8-D

As for the gryffyn comparison, it's not a fair one. Merchants that sell through DAZ only get 50% of the total price for their wares. The same goes for items sold here. RDNA and Poser Pros also take a cut, though not as high. Sixus1 doesn't have that overhead.

If you don't want to buy from DAZ, you don't have to. But please keep in mind that your repeated complaints and crusade against them and their prices isn't going to do much to change the minds of those of us that do purchase from them.

Message edited on: 07/28/2005 10:34

Well, if you're making that little of it, you obviously have choosen the wrong channel to present your model through.

As a person who purchases A LOT of Poser products, I don't want to spend the entire day looking for a product that I need.

What you are suggesting is that merchants cut out the middle man, open their own sites, and drop their prices to something that is more reasonable. To you, it seems like a good idea because then prices will go down.

With the number of Poser-related sites changing daily, it is impossible to keep track of them all. My time is money, too ... and if I don't have a centralized place to look for something that I am in need of, I am not going to waste two or three hours of my time to save $5.00. In that two or three hours, I've lost a potential $30 to $50, or even more, in wages that I could have earned on a graphic project.

It is worth it for me to give my business to stores where I can easily find items that I am looking for, where they care about quality, and where I know I can get good customer service if I have a problem.

Message edited on: 07/28/2005 11:09

Attached Link: http://www.caligari.com/gamespace/gsL/contest_results.asp

I'm not suggesting cutting the middle man at all, but it seems to me that not all sites drive up the prices as DAZ does. Quite a number of products sold at ContentParadise, RDNA and here are very reasonably priced. I hate to think how much I would have payed for them if I had to purchase them at DAZ. As for quality, I've purchased some good quality items at DAZ, but some not so good quality too. I've bought some items here, at CP or RDNA that surpase all of the quality I've ever bought at DAZ too. Good quality merchants can be found everywhere and I don't mind shopping around for it as long as I know I get a fair price and at DAZ I always get the feeling I'm not getting a fair price at all. I rest my crusade against DAZ, anyone can buy or not buy where he/she wants, it's just a pitty that people that people spent $$$ somewhere, when we know they could sabe themselves good money at times. By the way why are always the people who don't like DAZ being told to keep quite, while the DAZ worshippers always can express their feelings freely? Well, don't even answer it, that's a whole different topic.

By the way why are always the people who don't like DAZ being told to keep quite, while the DAZ worshippers always can express their feelings freely? Simple ... it has nothing to do with worshiping DAZ or anyone else. We are here to learn, not to complain. The community has more to gain with positive feedback than it does with all of the negative talk that goes on in these forums. Negative discussion is a waste of energy, talent, and resources.

So as a person who has experience with offering low prices for their stuff, and it didn't turn out well, why do you offer this same advice to those of us that do not have a customer base like Rendo, DAZ, RDNA, Sixus1, etc... I am currently in my seventh term in college, for a bachelor of science degree in animation, and I know you can get more for your work without any fear of overcharging. We all have to make a living, and I don't want to be the one charging unfair prices. I think that as one of the only two existing poser models with an accurate attempt at foldable wings, this alone is worth the price. I am sorry you disagree, with any luck I will also be able to build a customer base and bring the savings, independance has to offer, to my supporters. Until then I will have to charge enough to justify my investments.

This isn't an ad for our Gryphon2, this is me setting some things said straight.

"Let's see... Sixus's grifins modeling and texure time.. 2 weeks. Paul's Griffin developement time.. 7 MONTHS."

I don't know where you got 2 weeks, for a completed final figure....Les may have worked on modeling it for about two weeks...I don't know...I don't keep track, but I do know that it took longer than that to get out. Also, why does it matter how long it takes ? Are you trying to imply that because Les is faster than most that our stuff is crap ?

"Paul's griffin has geo switching in him to hide the wings, geo switching to convert him into a hippogriff, and instead of one blanket wing surface, researched and modeled the wings based on actual bird wings. Each wing has many MANY friggin parts to them and erc built in to not only move them, but fold them as a proper bird's wings do. I think he spent 2 months alone on th wing design and execution. And each friggin feather is even modeled, transmapped and textured, to give them a more realistic look."

I don't know what you are talking about....the wings are more than 'blanket surface' and have individually modeled and transmapped feathers and yes, even ERC controls.

"I'd compare them to a ferrarri, and a yugo.. yeah the yugo will get you where you want to go, but which would you rather be seen in, and actually drive? Which has more features?"

**Here are the standard features of our Gryphon2:

Original Figure w/conforming earTufts and BellyFur**

7 Poses
2 MAT poses (1 set each for P4-PP-P5)
Textures for default traditional Gryphon and alternate demon Gryphon

**
Specifications:**

Gryphon totals --> 64379 polys 66623 vert
Sixus1 Style ERC Rigging on the Wings
IK the front/back legs and the tail
ERC dials on the bird feet
EasyPose on the tail

Head Morphs:
EyesUp-Down
EyesSide-Side

browFurrow
earsScale
MouthOpen

earsScale (100% is gone)

altEarsForward
altBlink
altEarsScale
altMouthOpen

Tongue Morphs:
CulRight
CurlLeft
Length
Up
Down

Geometry Switches on the head, wings, and tail.
Evil on the Body will set all to one.
Use the alt morphs for the alternate head.

Here are samples of the UV templates

Sample product Image:

List of Body Parts:
abdomen
chest
neck
lCollar
lShldr
lForeArm
lHand
lIndex1
lIndex2
lIndex3
lMid1
lMid2
lMid3
lRing1
lRing2
lRing3
rCollar
rShldr
rForeArm
rHand
rIndex1
rIndex2
rIndex3
rMid1
rMid2
rMid3
rRing1
rRing2
rRing3
tail1
tail2
tail3
tail4
tail5
tail6
tail7
tail8
tail9
tail10
tail11
tail12
tail13
rButtock
rThigh
rShin
rAnkle
rFoot
lButtock
lThigh
lShin
lAnkle
lFoot
lThumb1
lThumb2
lThumb3
rThumb1
rThumb2
rThumb3
head
rEye
lEye
rWing
rWing
rWingIndex1
rWingMid1
rWingIndex2
rWingIndex2
rWingMid2
rWingMid2
rWingIndex3
rWingIndex3
rWingMid3
rWingMid3
lWing
lWing
lWingIndex1
lWingMid1
lWingIndex2
lWingIndex2
lWingMid2
lWingMid2
lWingIndex3
lWingIndex3
lWingMid3
lWingMid3
subTail1
subTail2
subTail3
subTail4
subTail5
subTail6
subTail7
subTail8
subTail9
tongue

List of Material Zones:
LionBody
BirdBody
BirdLegs
Talon
TailTuft
ClawsRear
Pupil
Iris
Eyeball
EyeTrans
Alula
UpperMedianSecondaryCoverts
GreaterSecondaryCoverts
Primaries
GreaterPrimaryCoverts
Secondaries
LesserCoverts
Tongue
EyeAreas
Beak
Ears
Nostrils
InnerMouth

I think that we SHOULD charge more to the retail consumers....I have had more than one email stating the sentiment of "I thought that your figure was going to be complete crap because it is so cheap. Damn, was I wrong!"

So, in short, you can drive your YUGO up your A@# and park it!

To Paul, the creator of the Griffin....no hard feelings. :) Yours has a different look than ours and there is always room in the Poser Universe for variation and choices.

Awesome model! Looks like I'm going to be taking a visit soon. I have a statue on my coffee table that looks REAL similar. 8-D

No problem...and Aeilkema, as you can see, even Sixus1 believes their prices are too low.

Rebekah, you really do spoil us with your prices and free stuff!! I just love all of the Sixus1 stuff I do own and the models you've provided for Poser 6 are just marvelous too. I've got to think of some comics in which I can use more of your stuff (the stuff I don't won yet) to support you some more. I'll think about it and check with my clients too see what they thibk about it. "Until then I will have to charge enough to justify my investments." I'm not buying without reason anymore, I've got a family to support. Before I get into some kind of commercial adventure, I'll do some research to see if I can get a return on my investments. I'm never charge my clients to justify my investments, I charge them what is fair and if possible even less and give them the best quality and support I can. That way I can make sure they come back, since there's no better deal around. That's the way I've always been able to justify my investments and I've never lost out until now. Yes, I do own some very expensive equipment (hard & software), but I'm always going on a long term plan. Imo someone should never charge to justify investments, but to what the end result is worth and invest accordingly. Driving a Yugo can get you there just as well as a Ferrari, that counts for software just the same. From your post I assume you did buy some pretty expensive software, perhaps you should have started out on a bit lower budget.

From your post I assume you did buy some pretty expensive software, perhaps you should have started out on a bit lower budget. Sounds to me like Paul is doing it right. He's going to school, and schools teach the software that are most likely to get them work in their fields. And that software usually costs money. He's taking the route that will get him a good job. Nothing wrong with that.

I think the griffin is a perfect example to show that yes we have been spoiled by Poser pricing. Two different models by 2 different merchants that want to support their users and have passed on savings to their customers. To add there is a Griffin available in 3ds format at Turbosquid for $60. Sixus1 $12, one sold at Daz $19 both rigged for Poser with added features. maclean updating a product and giving the update to existing purchasers is another example of how we are spolied in the Poser community. The majority of Poser merchants sell items because they love to do it and the money they get buys food and pays rent so they can keep doing what they love to do. As a community for the most part we are spoiled by the pricing that is passed on to customers. My hat is off to all the modelers and CR2 editors, I can't do it.

'maclean updating a product and giving the update to existing purchasers is another example of how we are spolied in the Poser community' A quick word of explanation about that. I just released an update to a product I made 4 years ago (at DAZ) - a photographic studio. It's been totally rebuilt from scratch and made compatible with P5/6 and Daz Studio. I decided to do it after I was asked by a DS used to help with converting the lighting. It took me 2 months, but the result is well worth it (to me). Now, it's only partly an altruistic gesture. Even though the product is 4 years old, it still sells, and by rebuilding it, I'm expecting to extend it's life by another 4 years. Also, I hate having products up which aren't 100% up to standard. So, I'm not really spoiling the users. It was a business decision, influenced by my own desire to improve it with what I've learned in 4 years of modelling. mac

I understand. My point was you didn't have to do that for a model that was 5 years old. You didn't have to do it at all. Sixus1 upgrades their models and often does the same thing by offering upgrades for free for a time. Many Merchant/brokers do this. My lightwave 8 upgrade is $495 and Photoshop CS upgrade is $150, neither of which I can afford right now. Poser pricing is cheap and in many examples the community is spoilt. (Mac is was a compliment, shut up and take it like a man! hahahahaha)

Gotta love any merchant (or any professional) that takes pride in his or her work.

Hey, MC, Yep, I knew it was a compliment, and I thank you for it. I do feel an obligation towards my customers, but more importantly, on a personal level, I take a pride in what I do. I don't have many products, since each project takes me an everage of 3 months to complete. But what I do have sells for a long, long time, and as I learn more and the programs change, I'll continue to keep my older stuff up to the mark. So, it's my own decision, but even that's partly business. A merchant is judged by each purchase. I don't want any product with my name on it, if it isn't 100% up to scratch. mac

Gareee, I'm sorry that's what you got out of what I wrote. I simply felt your comparison between an experienced modeler and a novice and the time it took them to make a mesh having that much effect on the cost of a mesh. I simply can't see how you took that as personal as I haven't knocked either mesh or modeler in this thread. I just think comparing the two is apples and oranges when it comes to setting the price. I never said Pauls was over priced either for the record. I'm sorry you felt one disagreement with me was so out of line that you had to pull your freebie from my website as well. It just lends itself to giving me the opinion that you're here to grind axes. I didn't attack you, Paul or his griffon. Fact of the matter is I don't work. I live on Disability and anything I do related to computers and 3D I can't charge for or I'll loose my disability income, yet I can't make enough money doing what I do to actually live on so I understand how merchants feel. I just don't feel that justifies brow beating customers and potential customers with emotional whining and baggage about not being able to make enough money off their works. It's not good business and it's not the customer's fault. In today's economy, thanks to he who's name I will not mention for fear of starting a political thread, people don't have as much disposable income. Blame that if you want to blame something, but for cryin' out loud, stop blaming the customers for being choosy about how they spend their money.

Aeilkema wrote... The merchant at DAZ is clearly not in line with what the pricing really should be. So what should the price be? In order to approach this objectively I have to go by the market today. Wee Beasties Griffie Pak: by Bloodsong, found here at Rendo. $25.00 Sixus1 Gryphon v2 $12.00 How should I base my price given only the two griffin poser models. Btw if anyone knows of any others that are Poser ready, please let me know. I couldn't find any others. Look at the list of features, should they be compared, since I'm "not in line" with determining a good price. You have different methods for determining what is fair, but you must come up with a price for your stuff. Do you price things based off of existing models? This is what you are doing in this "example" with the Griffin model. So what should I charge? Seriously. You claim that you charge what is fair, but how do you arrive at the final price? I am willing to learn to better price my products so that I don't rip any one off. And I am not being sarcastic, I am serious.

Your price seems fair to me, Paul, especially for an all-original figure. I might be wrong on this, but when Aeilkema mentioned he prices things fairly that it might relate to his work outside of Poser. I don't think he makes Poser products (at least, I don't see a store for him here). He is comparing your prices with Sixus1, who have their own site and can pass on some savings to their customers. When merchants have to split costs with an online store that brokers products for them, they have to price their items accordingly. We don't all have the luxury of a product base and a name that can justify drawing people to a site of our own. Until we get to that point, we have to build up a customer base by placing our products in places that will get us exposure. It's hard to set prices. On one hand, you want to be fair; on the other hand, when you set your prices too low, there will always be some who expect more for even less.

For additional clarification ... I also realize that Sixus1 have to bear the costs of running the site, and also have a lot of time invested in promotion stuff as well. Hope it didn't sound like I was saying that it was all "free" to them, it's not! You know, sometimes I really hate the taste of feet. Yuck! LOL

o.O You mean you don't like toe sucking? Is that just my fetish?!? ;P FWIW - I never said Paul's pricing was wrong, unfair or anything of the sort. If I needed a griffon right now I'd certainly consider buying his! Well I'd also buy Les's just because it's so affordable and I've had no complaint's with anything he's ever made. (Has anyone ever complained about anything Les has made? Ever? I've never heard of any.)