This really bugs me here. Poser is a 3D app and 99% of the postings to the gallery are 2D Photoshop enhanced. Now, I am not taking anything away from the work people have done using PS. In fact, it is truly fantastic work; however it is not a true poser, 3d render. It is a 2D app that has 3D elements to speed up creating a human form and props. Now I truly get excited when I see a posting that is a 3D "no post work" render and is photorealistic (and no, the realism category has posted images where eyes, lips and teeth get pasted in from PS). I think we need to call a spade a spade and change the categories for poser and give some credit to the Merchants for their fine work with morphs, texturing and to artists that strive to get realistic renders.

How would they check to see if the image was actually unretouched? It represents another administration headache for an overburdened staff who may not have the necessary skills to spot a retouched image.

Good point, however, one experienced at photoshop and/or 3d texturing/shading would be able to tell. And that would only hurt the said artist's credibility to post such an image.

Mine are truly 3d most of the time. At times I just cannot get around postwork (for certain effects only) and I do add all my comic balloons & text outside of Poser, but I don't really call that postwork. But, all of my images posted here except for SpiderZ are not postworked at all, purely 3D, either Poser (the later images) or Vue (the older ones). But I tend to agree with you. It especially bothers me when people post Poser images in the Poser galleries that have not been rendered with Poser at all or have been very heavily postworked. On the other hand, I think everyone is free to do as he/she likes, but to see a true Poser gallery would be great.

I think it's a good idea. I have nothing against postwork, but sometimes, I want to see what can be done with Poser, not what can be done with Photoshop.

The honor system would be good enough, I think. It's not like a contest or anything. I doubt the people who are heavily into postwork would even want to post in a no-postwork gallery.

I was once a Poser Purist. Hardly ever did any postwork on my pictures. Then I started. I began slowly to enhance things like lights and larity. Then added some softening filters and nowadays I SOMETIMES end up using as much time on postwork than on the render itself. But is it less Poser for that reason? If you'd asked me 1-2 years ago I would have shouted out a big, resounding YES! Now I'm not so sure. Is it "cheating" to cover up a poke-thru? Or to smooth one of Poser's wonky knees or elbows? or lighten some parts that got too dark because, let's face it, Poser's lighning is ... strange. Or, for that matter, change the picture from colour to black and white? The base is still Poser. Besides, and this is probably the main reason why people post their pictures in the Poser gallery and not in Mixed Medium - the Poser gallery get wayyyyyyyyy more hits than the Mixed Medium gallery. Try posting a pic in MM and see for yourselves. I've tried it. It was depressing. We post pictures here in order for other people to see them, right (and hopefully comment on them) - if that wasn't the reason, why post them at all? Or just post toem in your own, private Photobucket- or whatever gallery. We want hits. And the Poser gallery is where you get that. And if I knew how to get people to look at my pics in the MM gallery, I'd gladly post them there. But right now, I post them where the possible viewers are.

I never do postwork, what is rendered it's posted will all the errors and mistakes.

I doubt a "no postwork" gallery would draw viewers away from the main Poser gallery. Most people would still post there. But for those who are annoyed by postwork...there would be another option.

This subject again???.....Yawwwn the purists are better off starting there own website they can park it right next to the websites where you have to model and texture everything yourself including all props. and the use of any premade content is "cheating"

I don't see anything wrong with this request. They aren't demanding that postworked images not be posted to the Poser gallery. They're asking for a gallery of their own. Why not? The Poser gallery is so huge it could use some subdivision.

To Mr. Yawnn I have been using Poser since 1996 and back then you didn't even have "conforming" hair. And until recently you "had" to use Photoshop or painter to be even in the ballpark to having a decent image. But now 3d artist's have an abundance of resource material for skin, hair, mesh, lights, and shaders to create almost anything in entirely in a 3d app. As an Executive Producer for 2 New Media Design companies, I can tell you a render imported into Photoshop/Painter, becomes a 2D layer based, color blended 2d image with endless possibilities and effects. This is well beyond the capacity of even a high-end 3d based app such as Maya Unlimited or 3dmax. I myself like the challenge of pure 3D rendering. I make a living with PS, so I can tell you it should be a separate category within the "Poser" Header. You just cant compare the two when youre competing for views.

Considering Poser started life as an application for artists to draw/paint/rotoscope from, I honestly believe the question is redundant. I like to do non-postworked images because I'm interested in what I can get out of Poser. When I started using it I figured that it was the best way to learn how to squeeze everything out of what is - on the surface - a very limited package. Nowadays, my images usually have some postwork, generally compositing due to Poser's memory limitations, however, I'm not at all against postwork if that will produce a good final image. When it comes to producing artwork for anything other than my own pleasure, I'll use any means necessary. From a technical point of view, I'm interested to see what people can wring out of Poser without adding to the image elsewhere but when it comes to what makes a great picture, I don't really care. My main interest is in the artistry involved.

From a technical point of view, I'm interested to see what people can wring out of Poser without adding to the image elsewhere but when it comes to what makes a great picture, I don't really care. My main interest is in the artistry involved.

Exactly. And this site is for learning as much as it's for displaying pretty art, isn't it? I think a Poser-only gallery would be educational.

"I think a Poser-only gallery would be educational." From that point of view, I definitely agree. I would not like to see a place where Poser Only equates with inherently better, though.

I doubt that will ever happen. Do you really think creating a "Poser only" gallery will suddenly mean no more postworked princesses in the Hot 20? Get real! People's tastes won't change.

I just think that a "No Postwork" catagory within the Poser gallery header would be cool. :0 ... enough said for me..... my baby's crying.... peace all

Well ive been using poser since fractal designs poser2 and photoshop since version 2 Before layers. im glad to see both programs have progressed as they have Consider putting a "no postwork" header in all of your image titles then those who are so inclined will no they are about to view a "pure" poser image. it seems to me that very few people really care about this debate when they visit the galleries they are more interested in story, moods, intent.humor or even the genres of the peices they see what i find tedious about this "request" is that it crops up regularly here. undisturbed by the reality that renderosity has no means to police such a gallery short of having members submit their images for some draconian forensic pixel by pixel examination to look for" anomolies consistant with post manipulation" not ALL post work is obvious They would of course have to have established some "baseline" definition of what a "pure" poser render actually is. one agreed to by the community as a whole. with different Baselines for Poser4 render poser4 with third party light sets, poser5 "firefly" poser6 IBL oh!!! and poser6 IBL using third party HDR images that did not ship with poser6. and lets not even mention python scripts like "real skin shader" any testing "standards" short of what ive described will constantly be challenged as being arbitrary and subjective replete with accusations of favoritism and cronyism by those disgruntled artists who had their work declared "impure" by some elite "star chamber" jury panel. not to even mention the inevitable faction those who actually got approved. constantly demanding a "reexamination" of other "pure renders" that they feel look "too good" to have not been post worked. so yeah when i think about the REAL WORLD implication of trying to establish such a gallery in this community it makes me............yawn .

Well, look at it this way. If they get a no postwork gallery, maybe this issue will stop cropping up here and boring you so.

I think you should take your vitamins Wolf. You'll have a lot more stay awake energy. ;) Just teasin' because I think this thread's putting me to sleep too.

Let me ask you this, what are your thoughts if you have an image in the poser gallery under the genre: Realism... and you have a poser face, Koz hair, but the eyes, lips, eyebrows and eyelids are actual pasted photo-elements by a talented PS artist.... Now, myself, I would hire them on the spot. It saves me big $ instead of hiring a model for just a head shot layout, but for renderosity it should not be in the poser gallery unless under a 2D genre.....

It really is a 3D app if you like it or not.....

Message edited on: 07/28/2005 19:20

I think there should be a category for Poser No Postwork. I think both postworked and non-postworked pieces are valid and have their place. I would find it interesting to see what people can do with no postwork... Similarly, a postworked gallery would be equally interesting...

It opens up a whole new area for Poser detectives. First we had people saying they created new textures, which Poser sleuths determined were just cut-and-pasted from earlier textures. Next we had "modellers" who used various Daz or Poser models and tried to resell them as new models, only to be exposed by Poser detectives. But now we can have artists saying they didn't do any postwork in order to reap their richly deserved accolades from the 3D snobs, only to have Photoshop experts zooming in at 400% to show where the pixels don't match, along the lines of the famous "Fake Detective" on the web, who spots fake photos of celebrities.

I'm not a purist but I do try to avoid postwork as much as possible, simply because I got Poser so I wouldn't have to do any painting, too time consuming for me and with my diabetes my hands tend to go numb if I spend a lot of time using the mouse. Besides, I suck at postwork anyway. I do fix the joints and bends when needed and apply a softening effect from time to time depending on the image but that's about it. I guess that's still considered postwork though. Oh, and I don't do realistic, I like my fantasy stuff.

As much as possible I like seeing what I can get out of Poser. Pretty amazing little application.

Message edited on: 07/28/2005 20:44

You can create whatever artwork you want, and if you want to use no program except Poser, that's up to you. (By the way, is a Poser plug-in cheating?) I just don't get it that some people want to attach some sort of special air of superiority over not doing post work. Are you proud of the fact that you didn't do everything you could to make the picture look as good as possible? Are you proud of the fact that you don't have to learn another skill? Are you proud of spending hundreds of dollars on products to achieve effects for no extra money in the Gimp? Are you proud of spending hours to hide a poke-through that you could have removed in thirty seconds in post-work? Create your art however you want, but don't disparage someone who doesn't it a little differently. If you want a nothing-but-Poser gallery, go ahead if you have the support for it, but the superiority attitude is sorely misplaced.

To bjbrown,

You are Misinterpreting the point, we all love the artistry in poser post work, it is truly cutting edge and beautiful. I myself am not attacking poser painters; they are some of my fav artists. What I am saying it's equally difficult to get a 3d figure rendered in 3D space to look realistic. This is the ongoing quest of CG in TV & Film. Look at the Hulk, awesome CG but we still have a long way to go (I am not comparing Poser to Maya.)

About your comment on if you do a straight render, you don't possess 2D PS or Painter skills, now that is a superiority attitude, I make a living on PS and After Effects and personally choose not to use it when I am rendering in Poser.

Message edited on: 07/28/2005 22:21

How do we define postwork? How about color correction/constrast adjustment, is that "okay"? What about something minor like smoothing a badly bent joint, is that "too much"? This just highlights once again the absurdity of having the galleries arranged by program. You get people who don't know if their image which was set up in Poser, rendered in Vue, and touched up in Photoshop is in the "correct" gallery, and people upset about "too much" postwork, etc. Fact is, it's meant to be an art site, not a software site. bonni

I use postwork because it gives me an image that I want to portray. Postwork could also include non-Poser items from Handspan or Daz, or whoever, because in the purist mind, they did not ship with Poser. Poser doesn't do all the work for you. You need to do something with it. In essence, if you morph a target, it is no longer the original that was shipped, and therefore, it's modified, and post work had been done. This is such a narrow field. It reminds me of going to a Science Fiction convention and having squads of people wandering around declaring which Star Trek costume is authentic or not.

It reminds me of going to a Science Fiction convention and having squads of people wandering around declaring which Star Trek costume is authentic or not. LOL! One of the funniest things I've ever seen was a t-shirt with a Klingon phrase on it, which translated to: Get a Life. :-D bonni

LOL ......

I think that a "Poser - No Post Work" gallery is a great idea. Why ? Because some people want it. Doesn't make anyone's artwork any better or any worse for post working or not. Doesn't need extra moderation or anything like that.

Later,
--Rebekah--

BTW--what is my idea of "Post Work" ? When an image has been rendered out of Poser and taken into another application to alter it. Although I wouldn't count resizing or making an image web-ready.

Message edited on: 07/29/2005 00:24

Reminds me on the True-Metal discussions over here in Europe. What is true and what not :-) Wasn't it about making art? Poser may be the core of a picture - but honestly - most of the Poser-Only-Images have a lack of artistic feel. Most of the people even render their Poser-scenes in different apps. Is this still Poser-Only? I guess not. Look over the other 3D-Artists working with Maya etc. They do postwork as well. So I think there isn't really a need for such a gallery. By the way - who is able to judge if an image was really rendered with poser and not with another app - or better said, who's interrested spending time with this?

Attached Link: A better attempt at Pleasing the Purists

I thought Snow Sultan covered that subject fairly well, if ppl wanted that many separate categories and genres that's where it would lead. If you want to call a spade, a spade then his ideas probably have more merit than the present system.

Attached Link: Purity????

Pardon me , but how does importing a background picture from Bryce qualify as a "pure" poser render???

Message edited on: 07/29/2005 03:49

The ridiculous threat about poser purity again... Wolf, youre a Big Bad Boy... mwhahahahahahaaaa :D

Message edited on: 07/29/2005 04:38

Pardon me , but how does importing a background picture from Bryce qualify as a "pure" poser render??? Oh, THAT's okay. It's just NOT okay to do any actual, you know, artwork. ;-P bonni

Pfffffff...

Art is Art. Rosity need ANY system to categorize it, so logically into POSER folder are artwork based in Poser. A subsubsubsubsubcathegories is as ridiculous as... well, see the pic of SnowSultan, is just this ;)

I vote NO for a "Poser - no postwork" cathegory

Message edited on: 07/29/2005 06:02

Well, I've been using Poser for a month or two seriously, trying to make something out of it. I think you all know how difficult it may get to make a good render with certain poses and scenes. Making a category of 'pure poser renders' would be like putting the vegetarian food on a different 'carte'. I mean hey.. It's still food now isn't it? Nobody has to like what some others like, and vice versa. So I say do your postwork postworkers, and do your so-called pure renders pure-renderers. So what? Like the picture or not? Who cares how you did it? Do your own art... do not compare it. This isn't a race... This is about self-expression... you know... so called 'art':)

This isn't a race... This is about self-expression... you know... so called 'art' Which is precisely why organizing the galleries by program used is frequently counter-productive. bonni

Bonni, You are missing the point. A 3d render, is a 3d render. If you import a background rendered in Bryce or Vue, it is still a 3d render, for Bryce and Vue is a 3d app, you have to use Materials, textures and basic modeling to get the desired effect. It's not so easy, few people know how to use, or try to use, shaders or materials in Poser or Bryce. The quick fix is PS. The no postwork genre would not be a threat to your "Art" it is just about 3D technique , same as skills needed to paint in PS. One form does not take away from the other. You are way too defensive.

I'm not missing the point. I GET the point. I just happen to think that basing a gallery on what program was used is a silly way to organize it. MY opinion is that art should be artful, and what you use to get there is secondary. That's only my opinion, and I don't really give a damn who agrees with it or not. I'm not "threatened" in the least. I just think and have always thought that organizing galleries by program is not a good way to do it. It actually is possible that people can have a different opinion while still getting the point, you know. bonni

Attached Link: A category for everyone

So instead of just Poser: No postwork, it's just 3D apps: No postwork? Sounds as good as, Poser: Resizing and signature added only. But why stop there? Might as well go on with Poser: NVITWAS, Poser: Nude Female pasted onto Beach photo or Poser: Victoria with friendly Dragon

I give up, it's like beating a dead horse..... let's just close this thread............... please

Why not just add a no-postwork catagory? is it that big a deal? we have a work in progress catagory...

That horse has been dead looooong ago and been resurected to be beaten with frightening regularity. I'm not sure why another category is necessary, since a lot of them overlap now. If you want to make image that way go ahead and put them wherever you think they fit. If the difference is so important to you, I'm sure you can spot the ones you want to look at

I'd like to be able to view just those that people have set as no postwork, instead of having to go through page after page after page after page skipping over those that are obviously postworked. I'd like to be able to increase the amount of thumbnails per page in the galleries, this would also help with this problem for me.

Argon18, A 2d image and a 3d image are 2 different animals like it or not; it's like comparing apples and oranges. One does not negate the other though.... look at Eroticartist, she uses the 2d category on her work. Now I am not suggesting that, I and others would like to see a no post work genre within poser, so we don't have to weed through all the PS stuff. Is that to much to ask... obviously it is, by all the static.... Wow

Actually, since if you're going to make that distinction then sculpture is 3D and all the images here are 2D. If you're going to compare apples and apples then get it right. It's only the illusion of 3D through various means that finish in a 2D image no matter what apps you use. If the difference is so important to you, I'm sure you can spot the ones you want to look at ppl don't strictly follow the categories we have now so you'll going to have to do some weeding no matter what, like it or not.

The main problem is the exclusivity of the galleries. I'd like to be able to mark the apps I've used to create an image - usually that's Poser and Vue, sometimes 3DS Max. Sometimes touchups in Photoshop, always "save for Web" in Photoshop. Never a complete painting over a Poser sketch render - I can't paint that well. Same goes for categories. Currently I'm working on a series of images that illustrate a story. What category? Story/sequential sounds like the logical one. The series is intented to be humoristic (and from the comments I gather the humor is quite succesful), so should I categorize it as humor? The story revolves around the great pinup work by prog, should I categorize it as pinup? And it runs in a fantasy world, with magic, sword & sorcery, should it be in Fantasy? It should be in all four. But the exclusive system 'rosity uses prevents this. I would LOVE to see a change here. I would love to mark the different apps I use to create an image, and I would love to mark the different categories the image belongs to. It would also be a great help in filtering the galleries. I'm mostly interested in Bryce, Vue and Poser, and in the fantasy, story/sequential and humor categories. The way it is now I have to change the filter 9 times to view what I want, with a "checkmark" approach I can set the filter to display all the posts I'm interested in at once. It shouldn't be too difficult to implement. And it'll satisfy the "no postwork" lovers (of which I'm one!) - just filter out Photoshop and PSP and you're done. Just my two cents.

Filtering options and different thumbnail options make a lot of sense. Those two things would be friendly to any dial-up users who avoid the galleries because those slow-loading thumbnail pages use up far more time than it's worth. I have no idea though how easy or hard it would be to set up, and whether or not that has been suggested and rejected in the past.

Attached Link: Etch-a-Sketch

It doesn't bother me if there is a new category for Poser-No Postwork. It probably won't get many hits and most people will want their images in the gallery that gets viewed the most--that would be the current Poser gallery. The No-Postwork gallery will be new because it's doubtful that any moderators want to spend weeks culling postworked images out of the current gallery to make it pure Poser. I'm really siding with the posters who don't think it makes much difference. Anybody who's used Poser for a while can fairly readily spot what's Poser and what's postwork. There are very few images in the Poser gallery where Poser isn't front and center. There may be some postwork to smooth over the rough edges that Poser can have. There aren't many images where Poser is buried under postwork. After all, if the artist could paint well enough that Poser isn't needed, Poser wouldn't be used. I basically consider Poser-only images as being somewhat akin to Etch-a-Sketch art. It's amazing that somebody can create real art on the toy, but the skill that allows them to do that can readily transfer to pencil or pen & ink work and could be completed much faster and more reliably and not have to worry about being jostled and erased. Poser-only artwork is a similar kind of curiosity. It's fun to see how far somebody can push the program, but there's eventually a wall that usually isn't worth going beyond. Spending hours working on lighting, that can be made perfect in a couple minutes with a color correction in a 2D graphics program, doesn't make much sense on a continual basis. It might be worth pushing a few times to learn how to use lights better, but constantly trading efficiency to go a Poser-only route leans towards obsessiveness. As each version of Poser improves a little with each release, it doesn't make much sense getting too hung up on intricacies and workarounds to flaws in the program if there's better ways of fixing them. The time spent pushing Poser's weaknesses could be better spent learning a better way of fixing the problem. Poser weaknesses may be fixed in a later version and all that time, trying to work around them, will have been wasted whereas learning new techniques in an image editing program has a greater payoff in Poser and other 2D illustrative work. Poser's a great little program, but it is by no means the best 3D program out there. It's really not worth spending too much time fixing a quirk with Poser when a fuller 3D application doesn't have the same problem. A Poser-only image usually looks unfinished to me. I've seen a few that are quite impressive, but more often than not, Poser-only images could be made better with a small amount of postwork. The one area where I would like to see more Poser-only work is in before and after images. It's interesting to see what a heavily postworked image looked like coming out of Poser and seeing how the artist improved the original raw image. The couple times I posted that topic, it got almost zero response, so I'm sort of alone in finding fascination in seeing the image that the artist started with. If enough peopel feel a great need to have a No-Postwork gallery, that's okay by me.

That's funny. gagnonrich mentions efficiency. For me, efficiency in lighting means setting up the lights in the 3D app based on physical correctness. Easy and fast. At least, easy and fast for me. I would spend hours in a 2D program getting the color correction right. So I'm not going to waste my time with a 2D program. 2D is not necessarily better than 3D. Ever tried to do a realistic motion blur in a painting app? I prefer to have a 3D app do the mathematics for me. Fixing pokethru? I use a magnet. Fast and easy. Water? I'm rather bored by the the same Photoshop filter I see over and over again. Reflections? Raytracing is the fast and easy and accurate way. Flowing clothes? Dynamic cloth. Paraphrase of post #50: It's really not worth spending too much time fixing a quirk with a 2D app when Poser can do it for you. That said, I have a great respect for artists that can really enhance a Poser render using a 2D app. But I also have great respect for artist that can use Poser (or any other 3D app) to create images that are outstanding by themselves, and where postwork would only detract from the quality.